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Offlineterence
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Registered: 03/07/23
Posts: 85
Last seen: 6 months, 21 hours
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28243576 - 03/23/23 07:42 PM (10 months, 19 hours ago)

Quote:


and the outfall is that hand shaking becomes part of bad activity






tail-wagging, on the other hand, is unconditionally good...


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Offlineterence
Stranger
Registered: 03/07/23
Posts: 85
Last seen: 6 months, 21 hours
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Rahz]
    #28243588 - 03/23/23 07:50 PM (10 months, 18 hours ago)

ranz says:


A man's most valuable trait is a judicious sense of what not to believe."
-Euripides [412 B.C.]




"Everything between 'thus have I heard' and 'this I believe' is mere words."

~layman pang



"It's just a box of rain, I don't know who put it there.
Believe it if you need it, and need it if you dare."

~robert hunter


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Offlineterence
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Registered: 03/07/23
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28243639 - 03/23/23 08:17 PM (10 months, 18 hours ago)

Even a Dog Can Shake Hands
(warren zevon)


[Intro]
Hey!
Woo, woo
Hey!

[Verse 1]
He's tryna survive up on Mulholland Drive
He's got the phone in the car in his hand
Everbody's tryna be a friend of mine
Even a dog can shake hands

[Verse 2]
He wants twenty percent because he knew you back when
Now they all want a piece of the band
Everbody's tryna be a friend of mine
Even a dog can shake hands

[Verse 3]
All the worms and the gnomes are having lunch at Le Dome
They're all living off the fat of the land
Everbody's tryna be a friend of mine
Even a dog can shake hands
Woo-woo, yeah

[Chorus]
Sign page forty-two, we'll do the rest for you
Find a way to make it pay
Don't lose your head, you'll end up dead
Or you'll be living in the valley some day
Hey!

[Verse 4]
I better not hope you don't rock the boat
And we'll make a few hundred grand
Everbody's tryna be a friend of mine
Even a dog can shake hands

[Verse 5]
You'll be making the scene 'til they pick your bones clean
And they don't leave much for the fans
Everbody's tryna be a friend of mine
Even a dog can shake hands
Woo-woo, yeah

[Chorus]
Sign page forty-two, we'll do the rest for you
Find a way to make it pay
Don't lose your head, you'll end up dead
You'll be living in the valley some day
Yeah

[Outro]
Well, I'm tryna survive up on Mulholland Drive
And I get it any way I can
And everbody's tryna be a friend of mine
Even a dog can shake hands
Woo-woo, yeah
Woo-woo, ain't that true?


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Invisiblenooneman
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Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,555
Loc: Utah
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: shadowplay]
    #28243640 - 03/23/23 08:17 PM (10 months, 18 hours ago)

Reality is the thing that stubbornly refuses to become unreal no matter how much we want it to.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28243658 - 03/23/23 08:27 PM (10 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

terence said:
We do not perceive something and then name it, we perceive the object as an existing thing immediately. We don't conceptualize a perception, we taste it directly already named and by that fact objectified. The illusion is that we live in a world of existing objects. The reality is that there are no existing objects. Existence itself is the world-illusion, maya. A fantasy based on our appetites, our desires, our care and love. Dogen says, because we love flowers, weeds come into existence.



In the abhidharma presentation the process of interacting with sensory perceptions is described as a repetitive self-activation of the five skandhas - usually translated as heaps or mental aggregates. One full run of form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness takes one "mind-moment" - cittakkhana. Between these moments there is no perception or any mental processes, and the illusion of continuity is created by a constant flow of mind-moments. So not only does the conventional (apparent, conditioned) reality does not really exist - it only consists of the regurgitated karmas from the store-consciousness alaya-vijnana but the one experiencing it does not exist either, other than a flow of discreet mind-moments in which all mental activity happens.

I am not sure if soto and rinzai schools accept this framework but all Tibetan traditions do. One of my biggest regrets is not seeing Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) in person. He gave talks at my hometown a few times but I never went.


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Offlineterence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Metoo]
    #28243960 - 03/24/23 12:05 AM (10 months, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Metoo said:
Quote:

terence said:
We do not perceive something and then name it, we perceive the object as an existing thing immediately. We don't conceptualize a perception, we taste it directly already named and by that fact objectified. The illusion is that we live in a world of existing objects. The reality is that there are no existing objects. Existence itself is the world-illusion, maya. A fantasy based on our appetites, our desires, our care and love. Dogen says, because we love flowers, weeds come into existence.



In the abhidharma presentation the process of interacting with sensory perceptions is described as a repetitive self-activation of the five skandhas - usually translated as heaps or mental aggregates. One full run of form, feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness takes one "mind-moment" - cittakkhana. Between these moments there is no perception or any mental processes, and the illusion of continuity is created by a constant flow of mind-moments. So not only does the conventional (apparent, conditioned) reality does not really exist - it only consists of the regurgitated karmas from the store-consciousness alaya-vijnana but the one experiencing it does not exist either, other than a flow of discreet mind-moments in which all mental activity happens.

I am not sure if soto and rinzai schools accept this framework but all Tibetan traditions do. One of my biggest regrets is not seeing Seung Sahn (Soen Sa Nim) in person. He gave talks at my hometown a few times but I never went.






  Not just the abhidharma, all the schools of buddhism would accept that framework, and it would be acceptable to sufism also. The only question is whether the buddhists got these views from platonists or the reverse.

  Seung sahn was one of the truly great zen masters of the twentieth century. Only shunryu suzuki compares in my view. I have similar regrets that I didn't see bob marley when I had the chance.








from zen mind, beginner's mind by shunryu suzuki


Dogen-zenji said, "Even though it is midnight, dawn is here; even though dawn comes, it is nighttime." This kind of statement conveys the understanding transmitted from Buddha to the Patriarchs, and from the Patriarchs to Dogen, and to us. Nighttime and daytime are not different. The same thing is sometimes called nighttime, sometimes called daytime. They are one thing.

Zazen practice and everyday activity are one thing. We call zazen everyday life, and everyday life zazen. But usually we think, "Now zazen is over, and we will go about our everyday activity." But this is not the right understanding. They are the same thing. We have nowhere to escape. So in activity there should be calmness, and in calmness there should be activity. Calmness and activity are not different.

Each existence depends on something else. Strictly speaking, there are no separate individual existences. There are just many names for one existence. Sometimes people put stress on oneness, but this is not our understanding. We do not emphasize any point in particular, even oneness. Oneness is valuable, but variety is also wonderful. Ignoring variety, people emphasize the one absolute existence, but this is a one-sided understanding. In this understanding there is a gap between variety and oneness. But oneness and variety are the same thing, so oneness should be appreciated in each existence. That is why we emphasize everyday life rather than some particular state of mind. We should find the reality in each moment, and in each phenomenon. This is a very important point.

Dogen-zenji said, "Although everything has Buddha nature, we love flowers, and we do not care for weeds." This is true of human nature. But that we are attached to some beauty is itself Buddha's activity. That we do not care for weeds is also Buddha's activity. We should know that. If you know that, it is all right to attach to something. If it is Buddha's attachment, that is non-attachment. So in love there should be hate, or non-attachment. And in hate there should be love, or acceptance. Love and hate are one thing. We should not attach to love alone. We should accept hate. We should accept weeds, despite how we feel about them. If you do not care for them, do not love them; if you love them, then love them.


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OfflineMetoo
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28244008 - 03/24/23 01:28 AM (10 months, 13 hours ago)

I just remembered that the first Buddhist centre I visited was Seung Sahn's. We wore the grey gowns and did a 40 minutes zazen session.


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Offlineterence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28244009 - 03/24/23 01:29 AM (10 months, 13 hours ago)

shunryu suzuki, op cit


Dogen said, "To learn something is to know yourself; to study Buddhism is to study yourself." To learn something is not to acquire something which you did not know before. You know something before you learn it. There is no gap between the "I" before you know something and the "I" after you know something. There is no gap between the ignorant and the wise. A foolish person is a wise person; a wise person is a foolish person. But usually we think, "He is foolish and i am wise," or "I was foolish, but now I am wise." How can we be wise if we are foolish? But the understanding transmitted from Buddha to us is that there is no difference whatsoever between the foolish man and the wise man. It is so. But if 1 say this people may think that I am emphasizing oneness. This is not so. We do not emphasize anything. All we want to do is to know things just as they are. If we know things as they are, there is nothing to point at; there is no way to grasp anything; there is no thing to grasp. We cannot put emphasis on any point. Nevertheless, as Dogen said, "A flower falls, even though we love it; and a weed grows, even though we do not love it." Even though it is so, this is our life.

In this way our life should be understood. Then there is no problem. Because we put emphasis on some particular point, we always have trouble. We should accept things just as they are. This is how we understand everything, and how we live in this world. This kind of experience is something beyond our thinking. In the thinking realm there is a difference between oneness and variety; but in actual experience, variety and unity are the same. Because you create some idea of unity or variety, you are caught by the idea. And you have to continue the endless thinking, although actually there is no need to think.

Emotionally we have many problems, but these problems are not actual problems; they are something created; they are problems pointed out by our self-centered ideas or views. Because we point out something, there are problems. But actually it is not possible to point out anything in particular. Happiness is sorrow; sorrow is happiness. There is happiness in difficulty; difficulty in happiness. Even though the ways we feel are different, they are not really different, in essence they are the same. This is the true understanding transmitted from Buddha to us.


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Offlineterence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28244013 - 03/24/23 01:50 AM (10 months, 12 hours ago)

All the time I pray to Buddha
I keep on
  killing mosquitoes.

~issa


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Posts: 37,530
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28244080 - 03/24/23 05:27 AM (10 months, 9 hours ago)

abhidhamma and mind moments is the original inspiration for my brain theory of operation.

it is described in this thread https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27446374#27446374 and illustrated.

and a functional version is shown using JavaScript if you click the brain fart in my sig.

In university my friend got his psychology masters degree on Abhidhamma, and my cousin who was a Buddhist monk for 3 years introduced him and me to it after his return to Canada.

The traditional explanations are bogged down in cultural scientific limitations and are largely imperfect, but the essence of mind moments is real. I had the charts up on my wall for years, and read the translations several times.

Consider the Alpha rhythm of ~10 pulses per second as the key to all citta, while waking or dreaming. consider associative perception as the memory reflex to be the root of all attachment good and bad - that is our reality. And the solid reality of physics and chemistry is definitely real as well. Nama Rupa.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28244115 - 03/24/23 06:28 AM (10 months, 8 hours ago)

Quote:

Dogen-zenji said, "Although everything has Buddha nature, we love flowers, and we do not care for weeds."




I did plant hairy commelina and purple topped verbadum in my backyard before, with vibrant blue and purple flowers.

They're supposed to be weeds in my country, but ornamentals like lantana complicate that when they adapt for foreign climates and begin to impact their ecology, house development and agriculture.

Mother in law tongues, Yukkas, and succulents alike require S5 chemicals at least so read the SDS!

A lot of plants have vegetative reproduction too where individual pieces can grow into individual plants. Hence why brush cutting tends to dramatically spread some species like mother of millions, butterfly heaven or Singapore daisy.

A wide variety of native and invasive flowering plants in Australia have fantastic colours, and unique looks.
I've seen kilometres of fields below a mountain ridge filled with fireweed, a dense sea of yellow flowers. They're toxic to cattle, and only select species of goat can eat them. They spread by hair tufted seeds that become carried by the wind and can travel vast distances, in vast numbers.

It snows side ways sometimes, with groundsel too.

I wrote a field guide on weed identification within a locality and have a lot of field experience as well.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (03/24/23 06:34 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Posts: 37,530
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
    #28244121 - 03/24/23 06:34 AM (10 months, 8 hours ago)

in the right context weed is fantastic.
social conformity creeps into Zen with some groovy masters.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28244123 - 03/24/23 06:38 AM (10 months, 8 hours ago)

You can't control the seedbank without emergents, and these are often harsh and long lasting chemicals that can heavily stain the ground or equipment, and a lot of weeds become naturalised too. Additionally, some natives like typha, luwdigia and some persecaria species can choke waterways and lead to drainage issues.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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Offlineterence
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Registered: 03/07/23
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly] * 1
    #28244867 - 03/24/23 03:08 PM (9 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
Quote:

Dogen-zenji said, "Although everything has Buddha nature, we love flowers, and we do not care for weeds."




I did plant hairy commelina and purple topped verbadum in my backyard before, with vibrant blue and purple flowers.

They're supposed to be weeds in my country, but ornamentals like lantana complicate that when they adapt for foreign climates and begin to impact their ecology, house development and agriculture.

Mother in law tongues, Yukkas, and succulents alike require S5 chemicals at least so read the SDS!

A lot of plants have vegetative reproduction too where individual pieces can grow into individual plants. Hence why brush cutting tends to dramatically spread some species like mother of millions, butterfly heaven or Singapore daisy.

A wide variety of native and invasive flowering plants in Australia have fantastic colours, and unique looks.
I've seen kilometres of fields below a mountain ridge filled with fireweed, a dense sea of yellow flowers. They're toxic to cattle, and only select species of goat can eat them. They spread by hair tufted seeds that become carried by the wind and can travel vast distances, in vast numbers.

It snows side ways sometimes, with groundsel too.

I wrote a field guide on weed identification within a locality and have a lot of field experience as well.






  I love field guides and appreciate your work. I'm sure you are intimately aware that classifying a flowering plant as a "weed" or a "flower" is a matter of where one stands. In hawaii lantana is definitely a weed, something no one would plant and many would eradicate. But the flowers are pretty. In oregon, blackberries are a pest.

  Dogen is speaking of "love" and "care." As sentient beings, we seek our good and avoid our bad by the nature of things. We pick berries and swat mosquitos. Berries are not good and mosquitos are not bad in the larger sense, though we need food and mosquitos kill more humans than any other creature. It is naive, delusional and attachment to regard objects as inherently of value. To the buddha, bars of gold and gems are so many bricks and pebbles. Flowering plants are flowering plants and indeed are all one plant, bud-stem-leaf, bud-stem-leaf.






from 101  Zen Stories, compiled by paul reps


101. Buddha's Zen


Buddha said:

'I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasure of gold and gems as so many bricks
and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of
fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of
magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the
illuminated one as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of
daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons.'


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28244993 - 03/24/23 04:30 PM (9 months, 30 days ago)

Quote:

terence said:


from 101  Zen Stories, compiled by paul reps


101. Buddha's Zen


Buddha said:

'I consider the positions of kings and rulers as that of dust motes. I observe treasure of gold and gems as so many bricks
and pebbles. I look upon the finest silken robes as tattered rags. I see myriad worlds of the universe as small seeds of
fruit, and the greatest lake in India as a drop of oil on my foot. I perceive the teachings of the world to be the illusion of
magicians. I discern the highest conception of emancipation as golden brocade in a dream, and view the holy path of the
illuminated one as flowers appearing in one's eyes. I see meditation as a pillar of a mountain, Nirvana as a nightmare of
daytime. I look upon the judgment of right and wrong as the serpentine dance of a dragon, and the rise and fall of beliefs as but traces left by the four seasons.'



OK then, now we are starting to make sense in a few words.
one quality quote in 3 days of quoting. or were you giving us some kafka yesterday?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28245513 - 03/25/23 01:05 AM (9 months, 30 days ago)

I've been practicing gem sieving for a while now and have recently come across multiple opaque carats of my own, only to learn that the market only values transparency at a minimum of carats.

This puts into perspective a probability for success in profit though, which is fortunate.

Particularly within gemology.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



Edited by sudly (03/25/23 01:11 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
    #28245589 - 03/25/23 04:09 AM (9 months, 30 days ago)

a 2 carat Kafka would do nicely


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlineterence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence] * 1
    #28246130 - 03/25/23 02:15 PM (9 months, 30 days ago)

from dogen, shobogenzo



Meditation Master Banzan Hōshaku once said, “Among thousands of saintly persons, none have Transmitted the one path to That Which is Above and Beyond.” The phrase ‘the one path to That Which is Above and Beyond’ is the wording of Banzan alone. He did not speak of what is above and beyond, nor did he speak of those who are above and beyond; he spoke of the one path to That Which is Above and Beyond. His main point is that even though thousands of saintly ones may have come forth in great profusion, they have not Transmitted the one path to That Which is Above and Beyond. ‘To not Transmit’ can also mean that the thousands of saintly ones have preserved a part of something that is above and beyond being Transmitted. We can study the Matter in this way too. And there is still something more that needs to be said: thousands of saintly ones and thousands of wise ones do indeed exist, and even so, wise and saintly though they may be, the one path to That Which is Above and Beyond is above and beyond the realm of the wise and saintly.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
    #28246304 - 03/25/23 04:15 PM (9 months, 29 days ago)

I do not think that will transmit either, but if you spend time with it you may see the extent of personal delusion.

A good psychological gift from a Zen Master is to remind you that you are not beyond delusion, and what is in your mind is emptiness, while it is also apparently form.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Invisiblesudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
Re: Does reality exist? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #28246633 - 03/25/23 07:50 PM (9 months, 29 days ago)

Quote:

He did not speak of what is above and beyond, nor did he speak of those who are above and beyond; he spoke of the one path to That Which is Above and Beyond. His main point is that even though thousands of saintly ones may have come forth in great profusion, they have not Transmitted the one path to That Which is Above and Beyond. ‘To not Transmit’ can also mean that the thousands of saintly ones have preserved a part of something that is above and beyond being Transmitted.




I really like this.

And although I now realise gold panning isn't required for gem sieving, I'm glad I've now had enough practice to be able to say I've learnt how to both gold pan and gem sieve effectively.



--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.



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