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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28224580 - 03/11/23 12:10 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
Quote:
The most sophisticated intelligence in the universe is probably mycelium.
Could this not be an anthropomorphic view? I mean some slime molds at least seek the most efficient pathways for nutrient transmission, they find the shortest routes to sustenance, and while they may seem intelligent, I think it could also be called simple efficiency.
I would call mycelium elegant and efficient, but I don't think ascribing them with sophisticated intelligence really makes sense.
We define intelligence in terms of our varying ability to use words. What is the language of mycelia? God knows they are communicating, if "they" they are.
All "things" are communicating all the time. Everything we perceive is organic, is part of us. There is nothing "out there."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28224581 - 03/11/23 12:14 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Life has existed without our human words for all time before us.
Labels, descriptions and concepts emerge from our use of words to name things.
I don't think ribs were in a transient void before we called them so.
The hidden treasures of the forms of emptiness are infentesimal in nature, on a grander scale we don't have quantum interactions.
Objects fall to entropy, even rocks erode and continents drift. Everything surely in a sense does flow, but this is in time and is observable to say the least.
You'll have to expand on what you mean by neo-platonic emanations if you want to label yourself as believable imo.
I somehow doubt the name of a volkwagon emanated from Swedenborgs heaven, but hey, these are just words right.
Nowadays we ask if that worm is your girlfriend.
Trees and the like certainly do communicate but they don't use the same heebyjeeby sort of language as we do.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28224598 - 03/11/23 01:07 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I might call a nervous system a most sophisticated intelligence, and we are more closely related to mycelia than we are to plants. But I wouldn't say we don't understand it to a good degree.
I agree with asmongold who was recently asked about his own spirituality and replied that he regarded himself as a hyper-intelligent monkey whose grasp of how the universe worked was about equivalent to that of a dog.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28224602 - 03/11/23 01:15 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Perhaps if he held himself in higher regard he would ask a dog for their opinion and reflect upon this statement.
Your use of faulty syllogisms are leading me to believe you have pansychic tendencies and if that's the case then all I have to say is that the belief relies upon an as of yet undiscovered fundamental force. Which is a fine view to have but one I think requires being honest about the nature of.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly] 1
#28224604 - 03/11/23 01:21 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Life has existed without our human words for all time before us.
Labels, descriptions and concepts emerge from our use of words to name things.
I don't think ribs were in a transient void before we called them so.
The hidden treasures of the forms of emptiness are infentesimal in nature, on a grander scale we don't have quantum interactions.
Objects fall to entropy, even rocks erode and continents drift. Everything surely in a sense does flow, but this is in time and is observable to say the least.
You'll have to expand on what you mean by neo-platonic emanations if you want to label yourself as believable imo.
I somehow doubt the name of a volkwagon emanated from Swedenborgs heaven, but hey, these are just words right.
Nowadays we ask if that worm is your girlfriend.
Trees and the like certainly do communicate but they don't use the same heebyjeeby sort of language as we do.
We do not perceive something and then name it, we perceive the object as an existing thing immediately. We don't conceptualize a perception, we taste it directly already named and by that fact objectified. The illusion is that we live in a world of existing objects. The reality is that there are no existing objects. Existence itself is the world-illusion, maya. A fantasy based on our appetites, our desires, our care and love. Dogen says, because we love flowers, weeds come into existence.
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly] 1
#28224606 - 03/11/23 01:24 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Perhaps if he held himself in higher regard he would ask a dog for their opinion and reflect upon this statement.
Your use of faulty syllogisms are leading me to believe you have pansychic tendencies and if that's the case then all I have to say is that the belief relies upon an as of yet undiscovered fundamental force. Which is a fine view to have but one I think requires being honest about the nature of.
Perhaps you underestimate dogs.
I pray you encounter your as yet undiscovered force.
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28224608 - 03/11/23 01:32 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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"Dogs and philosophers do the most good and get the least credit."
Diogenes of Sinope
aka, Diogenes the Cynic ("cynic" meaning "dog")
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28224617 - 03/11/23 02:01 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Sounds likea good description of schizophrenia to me.
For a lot of your words to have any meaning I think there must be a fundamental force in play that is as of yet undiscovered, so you may want to look in a mirror for that one.
Dogs and cats probably would have a lot to teach about meditation, but I don't see their input in regard to, 'the creative principle which lies realised in the whole world'.
Perhaps the joy and companionship they bring to our lives is worth noting, and their endearing nature is admirable. I mean that a dogs contribution to the happiness, success and progression of a philosopher should not be undermined, but that I don't think the dog itself is contributing to that philosophising.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly] 1
#28224621 - 03/11/23 02:10 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said:
snip
You'll have to expand on what you mean by neo-platonic emanations if you want to label yourself as believable imo.
snip
You didn't ask about platonic forms so presumably you are familiar with those. Neo-platonism commenced with the work of plotinus, the enneads. Plotinus (2nd cent ce) felt he was expanding on plato's work. He posited an entity slash nonentity that was beyond being and nonbeing he called "the One" or sometimes, "god." Between the One and the material world plotinus posited a number of "emanations" that emanated from the One and progressively unfolded more and more articulated realms until the mortal realm of space and time was reached. These angelic circles were elaborated over time by his many successors. The west eventually came to ridicule this sort of thinking as "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" and the imaginal world was abandoned for a near total embrace of maya as "true reality" which is confused with existence. In the east there are many philosphies, scriptures, spiritual romances and poetic verses based on various elaborations of these neo-platonic emanations.
Eastern philosophies have room for imaginal realities as ephemeral representations of the One, glints of light, illuminations of things that cannot be explained and can only be experienced by an alone spirit, "alone with the alone" as henry corbin says. Alone because incommunicable.
Like psychedelic experiences.
"My spiritual power is that I sleep when tired, eat when hungry. Fools will laugh at me, but the wise will understand what I am saying." ~rinzai
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28224624 - 03/11/23 02:14 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Sounds likea good description of schizophrenia to me.
For a lot of your words to have any meaning I think there must be a fundamental force in play that is as of yet undiscovered, so you may want to look in a mirror for that one.
Dogs and cats probably would have a lot to teach about meditation, but I don't see their input in regard to, 'the creative principle which lies realised in the whole world'.
Perhaps the joy and companionship they bring to our lives is worth noting, and their endearing nature is admirable. I mean that a dogs contribution to the happiness, success and progression of a philosopher should not be undermined, but that I don't think the dog itself is contributing to that philosophising.
Dogs and cats have millions of years of evolution behind them and are vastly more mature species than we are, as wise and generally wiser than humans. We would have a great deal to learn from them if we weren't already doomed by our immaturity to an early extinction. It isn't very intelligent to destroy your planet. Cats and dogs are too sophisticated, too intelligent to do more than adapt.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28224628 - 03/11/23 02:21 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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So you tripped and felt one with the universe..
Riddle us with an example of one of these 'emanations' if you will.
All life has a history of billions of years of evolution including humans, and I think we learn a lot about companionship and general positivity from our animal brethren.
I think a lot of our technological advancements arose from our breaking away from a nomadic lifestyle that freed us from the worries of foraging and allowed us time to take on more creative endeavours. Opposable thumbs were helpful too.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28224676 - 03/11/23 04:31 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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do cats and dogs use words?
(I used to love Rumi but the quotes posted here miss the heart of what I liked about him - one needs to drink a cup of wine after each one - boozy)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

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My cat communicates very well and rather specifically with meows and tail language.
He's not scared of the vacuum cleaner and although I consider him an intelligent and picky being that knowingly communicates some of his needs and desires, I don't think he'll be teaching electronics classes anytime soon.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28224711 - 03/11/23 06:01 AM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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My friend Lori's cat says her name pretty clearly when she wants something.
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28225148 - 03/11/23 01:33 PM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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from “Ibn Arabi - Heir to the Prophets” by william c. chittick
The results of disassociating being and consciousness become obvious when we glance at the history of Western thought, especially in recent times. Scientists, philosophers, and even some theologians look upon life and consciousness as epiphenomena of existence, latecomers on the cosmic scene. We moderns are happy to think that “existence” came before consciousness, or that living things gradually evolved from dead and inanimate matter. For Ibn ‘Arabi and much of Islamic thinking (not to mention kindred visions in other traditions), no universe is thinkable without the primacy of life and awareness, the presence of consciousness in the underlying stuff of reality.
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28225167 - 03/11/23 01:45 PM (10 months, 13 days ago) |
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dogen describes reality as:
"A foot of water; a foot of wave."
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Kickle
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28225178 - 03/11/23 01:49 PM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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oh goodie, my favorite kind of posts. out of context quotes from others
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28225226 - 03/11/23 02:38 PM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I don't think the dog itself is contributing to that philosophising.
Philosophy means love of truth. Dogs have a nose for it.
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Kickle
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: terence]
#28225233 - 03/11/23 02:45 PM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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ah, also truth posts, extra credit!
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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terence
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28225252 - 03/11/23 03:02 PM (10 months, 12 days ago) |
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"So you tripped and felt one with the universe.."
There is no me and no universe. You are trapped in subject object thinking. I am trying to break you out.
"Riddle us with an example of one of these 'emanations' if you will."
ok...
Sweet Angel (jimi hendrix)
[Verse 1] Angel came down from heaven yesterday She stayed with me Just long enough to rescue me And she told me a story yesterday About the sweet love between The moon and the deep blue sea And then she spread her wings high over me She said she is going to come back tomorrow
[Chorus] And I said, "Fly on, my sweet angel Fly on through the sky Fly on my sweet angel Tomorrow I'm going to be by your side"
[Verse 2] Sure enough this morning came unto me Silver wings silhouetted against the child's sunrise And my angel she said unto me "Today is the day for you to rise Take my hand, you are going to be my man You are going to rise" And then she took me high over yonder
[Chorus] And I said, "Fly on, my sweet angel Fly on through the sky Fly on my sweet angel Forever I will be by your side"
[Instrumental Outro]
'All life has a history of billions of years of evolution including humans, and I think we learn a lot about companionship and general positivity from our animal brethren.'
98% of wildlife have already been hunted or driven to extinction. We are about a third of animals (by weight) and the rest are predominantly pigs, cows and chickens kept in abominable conditions, slaughtered and consumed. We could be learning cooperation community and sustainability from our animal relatives but we are too stupid ignorant and immature.
Billions of years of evolution instantaneously flame out.
"I think a lot of our technological advancements arose from our breaking away from a nomadic lifestyle that freed us from the worries of foraging and allowed us time to take on more creative endeavours. Opposable thumbs were helpful too."
Moving to an agrarian lifestyle is well known to have diminished our health, intelligence and especially our individual happiness. The vast majority of humans since the agricultural revolution have been domesticated as slaves. Capitalism impoverishes and forces people to sell labor on the slave market to survive. Our ability to manipulate our environment has led to the colossal egotism and hubris that characterizes our race in its titanic and doomed aspirations.
The eagle flies high but has its eyes firmly fixed on carrion.
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