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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: Yes, an illusion
Such a sweet beautiful illusion, made all here in this little biocomputer. For better or worse it is the most beautiful thing I will ever know. Whoever that is.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28411089 - 07/28/23 12:07 AM (5 months, 29 days ago) |
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If you want to talk about taking things more as metaphor,
Quote:
I think you're overthinking it and not reading the language metaphorically enough.
Time and space are one thing, but if they both keep collapsing into a quantum state that is essentially outside time so-to-speak I would imagine they're all just happening "simultaneously", whatever that means.
What's the metaphor here?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly] 1
#28411096 - 07/28/23 12:20 AM (5 months, 29 days ago) |
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God, I'd assume. That wasn't a metaphor though, talking about the place before is however. Not everything is a metaphor, but somethings are metaphorical. For me if I wanted to be metaphorical I'd say: whatever you want to call the whole of the energy system we are in, God or gana or whatever, the only thing my human brain can akin the big crunch theory is that it's the universe breathing.
Edited by Tropism (07/28/23 12:25 AM)
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28411125 - 07/28/23 01:03 AM (5 months, 29 days ago) |
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Ah, so nothing..
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28411562 - 07/28/23 11:18 AM (5 months, 29 days ago) |
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In the same sense that is is everything, yes.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28411703 - 07/28/23 01:36 PM (5 months, 29 days ago) |
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Are you saying everything is nothing?
Again not very meaningful if that's the case. Perhaps you could look into what Dirac discovered if you want to delve there.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28411935 - 07/28/23 06:57 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: Are you saying everything is nothing?
Again not very meaningful if that's the case. Perhaps you could look into what Dirac discovered if you want to delve there.
My dude, this whole interaction has been meaningless. You asked me what the metaphor was there as if it was implied there was one when that wasn't what was stated. Then when I explain that and provide a metaphor, your response is that it is nothing. Bring more to the table please before you use that condescending tone.
Rereading this it may sound harsh, but I think it's fair. I love all of you, but I don't see as the kids say why you are coming at me bro. I assumed what you were saying was literal, that if something is ultimately oscillating between existence and non-existence then it is actually, nothing at all. Which in the same sense in the context of the previous conversation where we were under the premise of the big crunch theory, would be everything as well. The universe being simultaneously (in a state without time) there and not there. I thought we were having a collaborative conversation.
Edited by Tropism (07/28/23 07:01 PM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,530
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28411953 - 07/28/23 07:10 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Picard and Data were having this kind of discussion without any friction.
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_ 🧠 _
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sudly
Darwin's stagger

Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28412214 - 07/29/23 12:58 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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So big crunch theory is universe breathing.. very astute of you?
I think blindass just kinda said it is what it is. Trying to take some speculation away from 'the before time' of cosmic birth or whatever.
I was referring the discovery that the 'nothing' of a void in space has something going on as described Diracs equation. That what might be referred to as nothing, is in fact something.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: sudly]
#28412752 - 07/29/23 11:24 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Well that sounds a lot more interesting and is a good response,even gets one intrigued in what Dirac was on about much more than being smug and telling someone to look something up.
Also I don't think there's anything astute about speculative metaphors about the unknown, but I'll take it and put in my pocket for later.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28412783 - 07/29/23 11:42 AM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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What seems to be the case is that the universe is flat, or flat enough a curve hasn't been measured This indicates the universe might just continue growing and expanding forever.
The material of the universe will continue towards entropy though which indicates eventually it will be a soup of particles. I used to think this might cause a "big evaporation" if time and space were dependent on a particular level of energy density, but space seems to have inherent energy and may never become thin enough that the properties that manifest it are absent.
This could still fit in the idea of a breath. The universe just wouldn't be breathing the same "air". More like a fractal where the potential produces new data rather than recycling the old.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Rahz]
#28412834 - 07/29/23 12:20 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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I'm fuzzy on it all but if I recall correctly what stops an ever expanding universe is the Hawking radiation dissipating to the point it no longer or prevents the growth of black holes, which would essentially grow and pull the universe back into its initial state with enough time.
The breathing thing is just a fun metaphor to use if we personify the universe as whole or what have you.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28412885 - 07/29/23 01:03 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Hmm, well the formation of a black hole doesn't produce more gravity or mass. It's just a different distribution. As well, black holes are predicted to radiate (Hawking radiation) so they too would evaporate. And while the universe seems to be producing more energy/mass the only mass that's dense enough to form black holes is the material that was expressed during the inflationary period. Eventually there will be no more black holes, or anything other than particles becoming less dense in space over an infinite amount of time.
It's all a matter of prediction and appearance, current theory, etc. but how it will actually play out is unknown as I'm sure you know.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Rahz]
#28412959 - 07/29/23 02:47 PM (5 months, 28 days ago) |
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Not so sure about that, the universe is filled with many stars that will end up as black holes when they die and collapse, so as long as there are stars there will be black holes forming. It's been a while since I read Hawking so I'm drawing a blank on the specifics.
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism]
#28412967 - 07/29/23 02:59 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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Stars are still forming from primordial mass but they only form from primordial mass. There will not always be stars but it's a process that is very long. The time that the universe has existed is a drop in the bucket.
Interestingly in recent news, data from the James Webb space telescope is indicating to some that the universe may be about twice as old as the 13.78 billion years we currently think it has existed.
https://www.openaccessgovernment.org/age-of-universe-research-james-webb/163845/
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Rahz]
#28413002 - 07/29/23 03:29 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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That's very cool. I'm not sure I can wrap my head around what you mean by the time the universe existing is a drop in the bucket, as the universe encapsulates all of time, as time is relative space. Without the universe there is no spacetime, without spacetime the concept of time is moot. So for it to be a drop in the bucket I'm not sure what you mean, it's the entire bucket as far as I can tell
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Rahz
Alive Again



Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,229
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Tropism] 1
#28413025 - 07/29/23 03:56 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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I understand what you mean but the universe is understood to have an age as a matter of chronological form and event. And a drop in the bucket is a slight exaggeration compared to infinity, or even the amount of time it will take for complete entropy.
-------------------- rahz comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace "You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi
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Tropism
ChasingTail


Registered: 09/12/09
Posts: 2,039
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Rahz]
#28413301 - 07/29/23 09:35 PM (5 months, 27 days ago) |
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That's a very cool video, this all made me need a light refresher on Hawking and I definitely am not remembering the radiation right, but after refreshing I had a laugh. We both are discussing one of his two main theories on the end of the universe, where I was talking about big crunch, this video seems to represent heat death.
Regarding infinity, it seems plausible. It doesn't sit well enough with me though, if it's infinity it is still the entire bucket, the bucket is just infinity in diameter. If there were multiple universe there would be multiple infinities.
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spinvis
Stranger

Registered: 09/15/20
Posts: 587
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Johann Wolfgang von Goethe - Faust; "All theory is gray, my friend. But forever green is the tree of life. . ."
"All perishable is but an allegory. . ."
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The Blind Ass
Bodhi


Registered: 08/16/16
Posts: 26,657
Loc: The Primordial Mind
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Re: Does reality exist? [Re: Rahz]
#28417052 - 08/02/23 05:38 AM (5 months, 24 days ago) |
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Dem kalpas.
-------------------- Give me Liberty caps -or- give me Death caps
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