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 Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
 
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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 "What happened before the big bang?"  2
#13253990 - 09/27/10 01:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've heard this being asked several times, always by people who have never read a science book on the subject. There was no time before the Plank epoch, the big bang explosion resulted in the existence of time. These same people usually conclude, after being told this, that since there was no time before the big bang, then this means the universe is finite. What they don't understand, though, is that time is merely a property of our current universe, and existence doesn't necessarily have to depend on the existence of time in order to exist.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (09/29/10 12:46 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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 Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13254004 - 09/27/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
What happened before the big bang?
Dinner and a movie? 
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13254032 - 09/27/10 02:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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What happened before the big bang?
It was eternally the weekend.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Icelander]
#13254133 - 09/27/10 02:22 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
What happened before the big bang?
It was eternally the weekend.
Eternal weekend? Sounds like a paradox.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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 Space Elf
Registered: 07/29/10
Posts: 3,371
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13254597 - 09/27/10 04:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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According to the Big Bang Theory, the Universe expanded from an infinitely tiny point. If that's true then there's no such thing as a pre-Big Bang era. If it expanded from an infinitely tiny point, it's been expanding for literally eternity.
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Envix
Avoidant Disorder
Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 1 year, 16 days
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Space Elf]
#13255843 - 09/27/10 07:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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so its a fractal hmm
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smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie
rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b
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Shroom lover
Lord Shiva
Registered: 08/09/09
Posts: 580
Loc: LSD island
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Envix]
#13256062 - 09/27/10 08:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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but why did it start expanding?
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Lets go back in the time machine to ancient india and smoke Hashish with Lord Shiva.
"nuthin beats a couple bowls at midnight when the world around you is fast asleep" - LetsGetBlazed
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Envix
Avoidant Disorder
Registered: 11/04/08
Posts: 18,206
Last seen: 1 year, 16 days
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Shroom lover]
#13256099 - 09/27/10 08:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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it's always been expanding. for ever and ever
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smack a hoe out this dimension
continue my ascension
-bhad bhabie
rip. todcasil, acid sloth, st1llnox, zappaisgod, big worm (sketch), tim b
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13256141 - 09/27/10 08:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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I think saying finite or infinite without respect to something is kind of meaningless. Infinite what? Finite what?
I suspect the universe has many finite characteristics and many infinite characteristics.
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Boba JFET
Stranger
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Loc: Nebraska
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13257412 - 09/28/10 02:06 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
I've heard this being asked several times, always by people who have never read a science book on the subject. There was no time before the Plank epoch, the big bang explosion resulted in the existence of time. These same people usually conclude, after being told this, that since there was no time before the big bang, that the universe is finite. What they don't understand, though, is that time is merely a property of our current universe, and existence doesn't necessarily have to depend on the existence of time in order to exist.
This fact allows for the possibility that the universe/existence is infinite.
I think the part that is tricky for people, at least somewhat for myself, is that the big bang is classified as an event. I can understand something not being time dependent, but it is difficult to imagine an event 'occurring' on some basis that does not depend on time. Maybe it has something to do with p-branes or something. I know that I feel like a p-brane when I try to comprehend big bang cosmology and superstring theory and such.
I resolve this for myself by viewing the big bang as not a discrete event in time but as an asymptote on one end of the time 'axis'. I don't know how factual or meaningful that is (I have also heard from people who are supposed to know that time was created from the big bang), but it sure does help keep me from doing this: 
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Boba JFET
Stranger
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Posts: 276
Loc: Nebraska
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Boba JFET]
#13257425 - 09/28/10 02:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Also, so what if the universe is finite in some sense - hypothetically, if we could draw a line in the sand and say "on this side of the line, there was nothing, and on the other side is the universe" and then either that line goes out infinitely in the other direction (like a ray) or it doesn't. Maybe there's nothing, and then for some reason there is a universe for a while (or some other non-time dependent version of "while"), but eventually nothing again. It's weird to think of because our consciousness tells us that we live in a persistent world, but if it is not so, what of it?
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totallymyhat
Dr. Mr. Mrs. Prof. Skulhed Face
Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 93
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Boba JFET]
#13257512 - 09/28/10 03:21 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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I thought there were a couple of schools of thought on this. "Big Crunch" or cyclic universe within m-theory?
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"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men." -Rumi
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Boba JFET
Stranger
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Loc: Nebraska
Last seen: 13 years, 28 days
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: totallymyhat]
#13258049 - 09/28/10 08:37 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
totallymyhat said:
I thought there were a couple of schools of thought on this. "Big Crunch" or cyclic universe within m-theory?
Yeah. I assume you're talking about the revived hopes through superstring theory. I've read something about this but when it gets to the esoteric stuff like colliding parallel orbifold m-branes and such I get rather dazzled, and I have no confidence in my ability to separate the fact from the fiction at that level.
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Ahimsa
µdose
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13259083 - 09/28/10 12:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Possibly this is before the big bang! 
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totallymyhat
Dr. Mr. Mrs. Prof. Skulhed Face
Registered: 09/11/10
Posts: 93
Loc:
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Ahimsa]
#13260450 - 09/28/10 05:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boba JFET said:
Yeah. I assume you're talking about the revived hopes through superstring theory. I've read something about this but when it gets to the esoteric stuff like colliding parallel orbifold m-branes and such I get rather dazzled, and I have no confidence in my ability to separate the fact from the fiction at that level.
No doubt. I don't really understand it all that much either. Seriously heady stuff. Just trying to offer some more material to the discussion. 
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"When we are dead seek not our tomb in the earth, but find it in the hearts of men." -Rumi
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Boba JFET]
#13264267 - 09/29/10 11:46 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Elf said:
If it expanded from an infinitely tiny point, it's been expanding for literally eternity.
The universe is 13.75 ± 0.17 years old, according to most scientists, so I don't know where you get this "it's been expanding for literally eternity" from--also, I've heard of singularities being infinitely dense, but not infinitely small, and I'd like to know where you read that from.
Quote:
DieCommie said:
I think saying finite or infinite without respect to something is kind of meaningless. Infinite what? Finite what?
What I mean is that the universe is infinite in the sense that there is no "non-existence", and only an infinite amount of existence.
Quote:
Boba JFET said:
I resolve this for myself by viewing the big bang as not a discrete event in time but as an asymptote on one end of the time 'axis'.
Meaning that it occurred after an infinitely short span of time?
Quote:
Boba JFET said:
Also, so what if the universe is finite in some sense - hypothetically, if we could draw a line in the sand and say "on this side of the line, there was nothing, and on the other side is the universe" and then either that line goes out infinitely in the other direction (like a ray) or it doesn't. Maybe there's nothing, and then for some reason there is a universe for a while (or some other non-time dependent version of "while"), but eventually nothing again.
For there to be existence and "non-existence" doesn't make sense--by definition, if there were "non-existence", then it would cancel out existence. Since there is existence, it cancels out "non-existence".
Quote:
Boba JFET said:
It's weird to think of because our consciousness tells us that we live in a persistent world, but if it is not so, what of it?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13264291 - 09/29/10 11:50 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
The universe is 13.75 ± 0.17 years old...
The universe is younger than my cat? 
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13264344 - 09/29/10 11:58 AM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
What I mean is that the universe is infinite in the sense that there is no "non-existence", and only an infinite amount of existence.
That makes no sense to me. Infinite amount of existence? Sounds like mystical gibberish. But then, I rarely understand such things.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: DieCommie]
#13264365 - 09/29/10 12:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
Poid said:
What I mean is that the universe is infinite in the sense that there is no "non-existence", and only an infinite amount of existence.
That makes no sense to me. Infinite amount of existence? Sounds like mystical gibberish. But then, I rarely understand such things.
Well I guess saying that there's an "infinite amount" of existence is putting it strangely, but again, my point is that there is no "non-existence".
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: "What happened before the big bang?" [Re: Poid]
#13264392 - 09/29/10 12:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago) |
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Forgive me, Im slow when it comes to stuff like this. I dont know what you mean by "non-existence". As far as Im concerned, some things are non-existent.
Help me understand. How would the universe differ if there was in fact "non-existence"?
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