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OfflineToxicManM
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A warning * 2
    #13222715 - 09/20/10 06:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This post is to warn everybody that there is apparently an undescribed neurotoxin in Psilocybe azurescens and P. cyanescens. Although unpleasant, I am unaware of any fatalities or poisonings severe enough to require an emergency room visit.

The symptoms are muscle weakness, loss of control or coordination, loss of balance, and a fatigue that can last for several days.

It would seem wise to limit the usage of these species, and particularly to avoid any large doses of them.

These are the only species I am currently aware of this issue with, but if any other species seem to be causing problems it would be good to let the community know so that they can also be avoided.

Happy mushrooming!


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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: A warning [Re: ToxicMan] * 1
    #13222738 - 09/20/10 06:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Interesting. That explains the feeling of five heavy guys sitting on me and holding me down for about 4 hours on Psilocybe azurescens. I know I have claimed this to be nonsense before, but I have to say that I was probably wrong. I can definitely say that the "paralizing effect" has happened to me.


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: A warning [Re: ToxicMan]
    #13222764 - 09/20/10 06:28 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I've had that happen with just handling a lot of wet, the cap was still viscid with wavy caps and with ovoids. Not where it cause significant impairment, but still noticeable.


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Invisiblelqdtrance
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Re: A warning [Re: falcon]
    #13222781 - 09/20/10 06:32 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Who discovered this? This is very interesting.


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: A warning [Re: lqdtrance]
    #13222790 - 09/20/10 06:34 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Don't know but there's been posts about it happening on this board for a long time, mostly about azures. A search will turn up a lot of threads, here's one,http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/2161978#2161978.


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Invisiblemushroomexplorer

Registered: 04/05/10
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Re: A warning [Re: falcon]
    #13222810 - 09/20/10 06:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

What scientific evidence or information is there on this toxin? I do not doubt you as I have experienced these effects from cyans, worth noting is I experienced these effects from consuming a large amount of fresh and young mushrooms.


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Offlinebatheinthefountain
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Re: A warning [Re: mushroomexplorer]
    #13222812 - 09/20/10 06:39 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

thanks for this!


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Invisiblemushroomexplorer

Registered: 04/05/10
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Re: A warning [Re: batheinthefountain]
    #13222901 - 09/20/10 06:55 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

When I experienced these negative effects I also experienced nausea and vomiting many hours after the pleasant affects something that has never happened to me before.


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Offline2859558484
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Re: A warning [Re: ToxicMan]
    #13223095 - 09/20/10 07:36 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

yes, please give us any information you might have on the nuerotoxic compound(s)


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Offlineubertox
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Re: A warning [Re: 2859558484]
    #13223147 - 09/20/10 07:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I'd like to know if this is more common in young mushrooms... it sounds like a defense mechanism.


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: A warning [Re: 2859558484]
    #13223150 - 09/20/10 07:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I would like to know anything that comes up on this chemically. For the sake of definition, I would think "neurotoxic" would mean that the nerves themselves sustained damage - instead of just being temporarily affected.
I don't think there is anything that shows perma damage. But you got me looking.....
I mean, if it was a perma-damage thing then that wouldn't be so good for "MAPS" would it? :lol: We better chase this down a little better. :cool:

Edit: I can find plenty of stuff that calls them a "neurotoxin similar to serotonin" but not a thing yet that implies anything but temporary effects and nothing about perma damage.
Guess I'll knock on bigger doors...


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Yours in the Natural State!
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Edited by curenado (09/20/10 08:06 PM)


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Offline2859558484
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Re: A warning [Re: curenado]
    #13223198 - 09/20/10 08:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I think MAPS uses isolated psilocybin


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: A warning [Re: 2859558484]
    #13223228 - 09/20/10 08:08 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

That is what is identified as a "NT similar to serotonin" - what you guys specifically mean is another compound besides that? Got ya. I may have a friend or two with some info....I'll try.


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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: A warning [Re: 2859558484]
    #13223246 - 09/20/10 08:12 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Unfortunately, this is about as much information as I have.

Psilocybin and psilocin both have the effect of causing some fatigue. It appears that these two species of mushroom have something else in them that causes a more severe version of fatigue, along with some loss of muscle control and coordination. The nature of what that something else is is currently unknown.

Since there are certainly a large number of people that have eaten these mushrooms and we have no known fatalities from it, we can say that the toxin is not lethal in the sorts of doses normally encountered.

Toxin has a bunch of definitions. The one I'm using here is basically for any poisonous substance. I would classify anything that causes the symptoms here as a poison/toxin.

Happy mushrooming!


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: A warning [Re: ToxicMan]
    #13223429 - 09/20/10 08:50 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Yes TM, and you are not alone. My problem is that the whole world is so obsessed with psilocybin one would think that is all they are made of and even forensic med leads always turn up "psilocybin/psilocin" - nobody seems to know or care if they also had laundry bleach and flea toes as components.
But I did write a couple places for some (hopefully) more detailed chemical composition and it will take a couple days but I'll be back with what I can get.
Good point to bring up - as I said, I'd like to know, especially since I've been practicing with them for well over a decade and bitching about it for the last 7 years anyway :lol:


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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."


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Offline2859558484
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Re: A warning [Re: curenado]
    #13223464 - 09/20/10 08:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Unfortunately, this is about as much information as I have.




yeah, a lot of people online know about this because its reported regularly, at least in azures. Of course it would be great to know details about the compound so spreading the knowledge could be easier. You list the two species azures and cyans, but i suspect it possible that the "negatively toxic" compound could exist in more species but in levels that would render it ineffective.


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Offlinecurenado
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Re: A warning [Re: 2859558484]
    #13223835 - 09/20/10 10:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Woodeaters. Medically - in "JuJu" terms - I count on the woodeaters to have more of a "bite" which I attributed to the acids and perhaps lignins as well from the wood. They may bite a little more than we heretofore have considered.


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Yours in the Natural State!
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep; but I have patches to keep, and jars to sterilize before I sleep...."


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: A warning [Re: ToxicMan]
    #13224253 - 09/20/10 11:30 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

The symptoms are muscle weakness, loss of control or coordination, loss of balance, and a fatigue that can last for several days.

isnt this called "getting high" in our terms? is this just science trying to make things seem more severe?

like  muscle weakness,loss of coordination and balance?? like hello, in normal english its called triping out.

fatigue that can last for several days?? uh ya its sorta like a hangover.

i dont know it seems wierd ,but ive never gotten to try azurescens so i cant say for sure.


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Offline0acidtrance0
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Re: A warning [Re: psylosymonreturns]
    #13224505 - 09/21/10 12:17 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I probably gathered 2.5 dried ounces of cyans last year, and embarked on several trips alone and with friends, and none of us experienced anything too severe. We may have had trouble walking at times, and I know I experienced the usual muscle tension/chills that I normally do from psychedelics, and yawning too. But I think these things are fairly common for everyone, on cubensis or any other mushroom species. I had an uncomfortable trip on a fairly large dose of cyans, about 5 dry grams and a few fresh mushrooms, that sent me through some massive thought loops and made me feel insane for about four hours, but that also comes with the territory sometimes:crazy2:

I experienced more euphoria than fatigue on most trips, but I was also really pumped to be tripping on mushrooms I gathered myself :shrug:

I have read several posts where people describe these symptoms from woodloving species, but I will take my chances if I can get more cyans this year

Is it possible that an abnormally high level of baeocystin or norbaeocystin is to blame? Don't cyans and azures tend to have the highest levels of these alkaloids?


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Offlinepsylosymonreturns
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Re: A warning [Re: 0acidtrance0]
    #13224526 - 09/21/10 12:21 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

liberty caps have slightly more than azzies according to PMOTW.


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