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InvisibleveggieM

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 17,538
California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked * 1
    #13220504 - 09/19/10 08:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Part I ...

Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked

September 11, 2010 - Reason.com
By Matt Welch

I'm going to keep a running tally of my former newspaper editorial board bretheren lining up in lockstep against California's landmark legalization initiative, Prop. 19. So that you don't have to wade through all 450 words of each bad argument, I'll boil 'em down to their essentials:

Newspaper: Riverside Press-Enterprise
Sophomoric pot joke: "clouds complex policy issues in a smoky haze of uncertainty"
We-don't-necessarily-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: "Many Californians have valid questions about current marijuana policy, with respect to both resources and results. But any change in strategy should come from the federal government, which sets drug policy, and not the state."
Legal confusion is worse than criminalizing non-violent personal activity: "The measure's vague language would result in endless litigation, and put state and federal drug laws in confusing conflict."
Bonus random statism: "Prop. 19 would also put the state at risk of violating federal drug-free workplace rules, jeopardizing federal contracts with California businesses and federal funding for schools and other public services."

Newspaper: North County Times
Sophomoric pot joke: "Keep a lid on the pot"
We-don't-necessarily-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: "While there are good, reasonable arguments to be made in favor of Proposition 19, which would legalize marijuana for personal use and allow counties to legalize it entirely, it strikes us that the potential harm from legalizing pot far outweighs any good it might accomplish."
Legal confusion is worse than criminalizing non-violent personal activity: "The policies in place now are reasonable and prudent."
Bonus random statism: "we support the current state policy of classifying marijuana use as a low-grade crime and of allowing its use for those whose doctors suggest it for legitimate medical reasons -- and coupling that to increased education about the risks of marijuana use, similar to public education campaigns regarding alcohol and tobacco use."

Newspaper: Contra Costa Times
Sophomoric pot joke: n/a
We-don't-necessarily-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: "Clearly prohibition against it has been a failure as was prohibition against alcohol. When there is a huge market of millions of people for a product, prohibition inevitably leads to a criminal market to fulfill the demand."
Legal confusion is worse than criminalizing non-violent personal activity: "If California should legalize marijuana, it could create a conflict with federal agencies, which could then take over enforcement of marijuana laws and reduce state and local control and flexibility in applying marijuana laws and in setting penalties."
Bonus random statism: "Prop. 19 would create a major conflict with the federal government that could result in considerable confusion and perhaps a loss of federal funding for drug treatment programs, for example."

Newspaper: Gilroy Dispatch
Sophomoric pot joke: "voters should make sure Proposition 19...goes up in smoke this November."
We-don't-necessarily-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: n/a
Legal confusion is worse than criminalizing non-violent personal activity: "The point is there's no compelling reason to legalize the drug for recreational use."
Nine decades is not enough–we need more time!: "Our society really doesn't need to legalize another drug that involves such serious debate on health issues. The questions about whether or not marijuana use leads to heavier drug use don't have to be answered definitively. That debate rages on."

Newspaper: Desert Sun
Sophomoric pot joke: "a dopey idea"
We-don't-necessarily-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: n/a
WTF: "And it can hurt your heart. 'Marijuana increases heart rate by 20 percent to 100 percent shortly after smoking.'"
Bonus random statism: "We also wonder how neighboring states would react. Would there be checkpoints at every road into Arizona, Nevada and Oregon? Would the federal government withhold funding?"

I'm currently unaware of any California newspaper editorializing in favor of allowing cities to allow their residents to put a comparatively harmless substance in their bodies without fear of potentially life-altering government sanction (please list any/all editorials in the comments). While this is all tawdry and shameful, it strengthens my irrational hope for a May 2009-style citizen revolt against one of the country's most disgraceful political classes.


Part II ...

Sac Bee, SF Chron Join the Golden State's Shower of Anti-Prop. 19 Editorials
September 19, 2010 - Reason.com

Eight days ago I rounded up the first five of what will be dozens of California daily newspapers to come out against Proposition 19, the country's first real marijuana-legalization ballot initiative with any chance at passing. A few more ostensibly left-leaning editorial boards have weighed in since then. My reader's guide:

Newspaper: Sacramento Bee
Sophomoric pot joke: "It is so poorly drafted, in fact, that it almost makes you wonder: What were they smoking?"
We-don't-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: "California ought to have a serious debate on whether to legalize marijuana for personal use. If lawmakers won't confront the issue, it might even be time for a ballot initiative to change the law. Proposition 19 is not the right one."
Legal confusion is worse than criminalizing non-violent personal activity: "A mishmash of rules would inevitably result, only multiplying the mess created by medical marijuana dispensaries that have mushroomed across California. The laws governing marijuana should be uniform across the state, as they are for alcohol."
WTF: "The measure has no definition of what would constitute driving under the influence of marijuana"
Bonus random statism: "[I]t would put state law in direct conflict with federal law. The Obama administration, which has taken a hands-off attitude on medicinal marijuana, says legalization is 'a non-starter.' Gil Kerlikowske, the national drug czar, told California police chiefs in March that 'marijuana use is harmful,' that legalization would increase abuse and that its social costs would outweigh any possible tax revenue.

Newspaper: Ventura County Star
Sophomoric pot joke: Adjectives include "sketchy" and "crackpot."
We-don't-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: "There could be actual benefits from taxing and regulating the sale of cannabis. Supporters of Proposition 19 may want to try again later with a fully developed plan. In the meantime, voters should nix Proposition 19. Backers of the measure say it would generate billions of dollars in tax revenue for state and local governments, but that prediction is questionable for at least a couple of reasons."
Legal confusion is worse than criminalizing non-violent personal activity: "The ballot measure would result in a patchwork of city-by-city, county-by-county regulations on sales, transportation, cultivation and consumption — with different tax rates and rules, making enforcement a nightmare."
Bonus random statism: "[I]t neglects to address appropriate state taxes and how those revenues would be used"

Newspaper: San Francisco Chronicle
Sophomoric pot joke: n/a

We-don't-like-the-Drug-War-either-but: "We agree with the architects of Prop. 19 that the 'war on drugs' - especially as it applies to marijuana - has been an abject failure. Laws against personal possession are widely ignored, they are enforced unevenly and they divert law enforcement and the courts from more pressing priorities. The result is a flourishing underground economy that allows marijuana to escape taxation and regulation while bestowing profits on criminal enterprises. If this were simply a referendum on the status quo, and the ability of a 21-or-older Californian to possess an ounce or less for personal use, it might be an easy 'yes' vote. It is not. It is a law that goes too far in endowing rights for the cultivation, possession and use of marijuana."

Legal confusion is worse than criminalizing non-violent personal activity: "Prop. 19 allows the 58 counties and hundreds of cities to come up with their own taxation and regulatory schemes. In this critical element of legalization, Prop. 19 is more akin to the chaotic approach taken with medical marijuana than to the heavily taxed-and-regulated treatment of alcohol."

WTF: "Pre-employment testing would be banned." (Go ahead and read the proposition in full–nothing in there at all, as far as I can reckon.)

Bonus random statism: "The measure establishes no state controls over distribution and product standards"

The Chronicle's vote-no editorial is especially sweet given that the paper's much-hated columnist Debra Saunders, derided by many locals for her right-of-San Francisco views, just came out with a pretty good column explaining why she's voting yes.

So have any California newspapers editorialized in favor of Prop. 19? So far I have found exactly one, and only because it was Tweeted to my attention: The Barstow Desert Dispatch, circulation not so much. Words of wisdom there: "Proposition 19 contributes to an effort to end a failed war that has consumed thousands of lives -- and entire lifetimes....It is time to end the fantasy that the government has the power or capability to end the private use of mind-altering substances. If it has not happened after 40 years it will never, ever happen."

I'll reiterate and update my previous pitch: If Dianne Feinstein, Meg Whitman, Jerry Brown, Barbara Boxer, Dan Lungren, Steve Cooley, Lee Baca, 49 California Congresspeople, the California Chamber of Commerce, the Sacramento Bee, the San Francisco Chronicle, and Dean Singleton's MediaNews empire are against it, the vote-yes commercials write themselves.


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InvisibleveggieM

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 17,538
Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13220511 - 09/19/10 08:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The above list of California newspapers who have come out against Proposition 19 was compiled by Matt Welch, editor in chief of Reason magazine.

He did a great job of breaking down their arguments so they are very easy to counter. He also included the links to each editorial from where you can leave comments or contact the papers. I encourage Shroomery News readers to do just that and leave positive pro-prop 19 comments. It is very possible that you can still change minds to vote yes for this important initiative and change history.

Many people in the coming weeks will urge anti-prohibition pro-freedom pro-cannabis California voters not to vote for Prop. 19 because it is too restrictive, the wording isn't just right, and to wait for the perfect initiative to be written. I say it is very important to get this passed now and vote in any changes later. Get this on the books, decriminalize cannabis, allow Cali to be the first domino to fall.

All of the recent polls have this election being very close. It can go either way. The biggest obstacle to getting this passed is going to be getting people to vote. The people who are opposed to Prop 19 generally vote, the people who are for it generally do not. Please make sure you vote. If you haven't yet registered to vote, there is still time.

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13220703 - 09/19/10 09:27 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

My biggest fear is young people just thinking they can show up and vote without registering first.  That right there is a lot of potentially wasted 'yes' votes.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: SuperD]
    #13220805 - 09/19/10 09:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It'll be interesting to see how this goes. I've heard a few here object to Prop. 19 because it made weed taxable and age restricted. Sorry kids - it ain't gonna happen without those two things.

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Le_Canard] * 1
    #13220870 - 09/19/10 10:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No shit.  People need to get real.  Let's get the plant legalized and worry about the finer details later.  They're living in a fantasy world if they think pot will ever be completely legal without taxation or an age limit imposed.  Smarten up and vote yes!  I do have to say we are living in some exciting times though.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: SuperD]
    #13220909 - 09/19/10 10:15 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
Smarten up and vote yes!  I do have to say we are living in some exciting times though.




Yer Bobdamn right I'd be a-votin' yes if I lived there! :laugh: And indeed, theses are some exciting times. Time was, there was no way this would be on the ballot anywhere.

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OfflinePlok
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Le_Canard]
    #13221028 - 09/19/10 10:46 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

EVERYONE GET OUT AND VOTE
AND SPREAD THE WORD

Put down the pipe and vote!!!

then go back and light up a fatty  :bigjoint:


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Just say NO to the War on Drugs.

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Plok]
    #13221052 - 09/19/10 10:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If it doesn't pass I'm sure we'll have another chance..eventually.  But let's get shit right the first time around so other states can do the same.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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Offlineauronlives69
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13221788 - 09/20/10 09:07 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

what i like about this the most is being able to grow your own, with a green thumb you will rarely need to buy some heavily taxed mj, even then it would probably be slightly cheaper to get it from a store than your current dealer

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: SuperD]
    #13221833 - 09/20/10 09:21 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
If it doesn't pass I'm sure we'll have another chance..eventually.  But let's get shit right the first time around so other states can do the same.




Whether it passes or not, there'll be another chance in 2012 with Jack Herer's California Cannabis Hemp & Health Initiative - http://youthfederation.com/cchhi2012.html, which is far superior to Prop 19 in every way.

I hope all the people trying to get Prop 19 passed will put in at least as much time and effort to get CCHHI passed in two years from now, it'd be very unfortunate if it failed because Prop 19 passed and everybody considered the battle for legalization to be over in California.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Morningrise]
    #13221916 - 09/20/10 09:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Morningrise said:
Whether it passes or not, there'll be another chance in 2012 with Jack Herer's California Cannabis Hemp & Health Initiative - http://youthfederation.com/cchhi2012.html, which is far superior to Prop 19 in every way.




I've read CCHHI as well, and I came to the following conclusions:

1) It is a FAR superior bill to prop 19.
It allows for far more freedoms, and I think it is where legalization should aim to go. It doesn't get better than CCHHI.

2) If prop 19 doesn't pass, CCHHI will not pass.
This is because everyone who is against prop 19 (smokers excluded) will be far more vocal against CCHHI because it adds more freedoms. CCHHI is far too progressive for the times, if that makes sense. The failure of prop 19 would also be a blow to voter confidence.

3) If prop 19 does pass, CCHHI might pass.
I say might because it is a step forward, and most who voted yes (and some non-smokers who see the light) will vote yes. It might not, because some might be happy with the status quo. The concern is "people might think the battle is over" which means people who don't smoke may not know the difference between the two bills. It will have to be named and framed appropriately: part of the reason for 19's appeal is the taxes it will generate, and CCHHI specifically says it wants to lower taxes. Maybe they could call it the "independent grower initiative", or "full legalization and regulation"?

I'm still going to vote yes on 19. I don't see cannabis being "corporatized" anytime soon, since the bill would allow people to be independent of "big cannabis".

The key to this movement is small incremental steps, and not large "shocks". The gay rights movement will ultimately end up in full equal rights, but its taken them a long time to get to where they are now, and where they would like to go. I think most people understand that this bill is somewhere between legalization (where there are ZERO cannabis arrests) and decriminalization (where there are FEWER cannabis arrests).

I am hoping that prop 19 will pass this year, and by 2012 most states will have CCHHI on their ballot.

The question is: is prop 19 a good stepping stone to the future? I think yes.

:2cents:


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

Edited by Green_T (09/20/10 09:56 AM)

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Offlineblujay
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13221925 - 09/20/10 09:49 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I read all of it.

Dude, thank you. That's awesome. Very revealing!


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wat man rly

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Offlineblujay
pass it b*ch!
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13221934 - 09/20/10 09:51 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

" But any change in strategy should come from the federal government, which sets
drug policy, and not the state. "

Says who, Nixon?

All powers not specifically given to the federal government or forbidden to the states are supposed to remain up to the state's decision. This statement contradicts the constitution.


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wat man rly

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Green_T]
    #13222001 - 09/20/10 10:18 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
3) If prop 19 does pass, CCHHI might pass.
I say might because it is a step forward, and most who voted yes (and some non-smokers who see the light) will vote yes. It might not, because some might be happy with the status quo. The concern is "people might think the battle is over" which means people who don't smoke may not know the difference between the two bills. It will have to be named and framed appropriately: part of the reason for 19's appeal is the taxes it will generate, and CCHHI specifically says it wants to lower taxes. Maybe they could call it the "independent grower initiative", or "full legalization and regulation"?



True enough. But while there are lots of people who will also vote for CCHHI even if Prop 19 passes (I certainly would if I lived in Cali), I'm kind of worried that a lot of casual smokers who are likely to vote yes on 19 aren't gonna care anymore, because they can just go buy their weed at the store and not get arrested for it, and that's good enough for them.

Though overall I do agree with you. Prop 19 is a necessary stepping stone and I hope it passes. I'm just concerned that it might become the standard "model" for legalization in North America, rather than CCHHI.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Morningrise]
    #13222057 - 09/20/10 10:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^^^
All valid points. That is my worry too, and even though prop 19 is good enough for me, i would still vote for CCHHI. I don't speak for other voters though, of course. My hope is that people who voted "yes" on 19 wouldn't vote "no" on CCHHI, but rather leave it blank (or vote yes!).

As far as being a standard model...I think CCHHI might pass in another state than California (Colorado, Mass. etc), or simultaneously. CCHHI would have to be passed by pointing out that CCHHI would be more beneficial for the state than prop 19 was.

On a side note, I read on reason.com that microbreweries didn't start popping up in the US until 1979:

Quote:

In 1979, a clerical error in the 21st Amendment was corrected, and for the first time in nearly 50 years it became legal to brew small batches of beer at home. Home brewers who had little interest in cutting costs or making beer with mass appeal began brewing big, flavorful beers in a wide range of styles. Many of these home brewers decided to turn their passion into small businesses, and microbreweries began popping up all over the country.




Note that microbreweries were not allowed to exist until long after prohibition was repealed. I see the allowing of "microgroweries" as a next logical step. Also, it would be foolish for people to suggest prohibition not be repealed because it didn't allow for microbreweries.

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OfflinegrimR
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Green_T]
    #13222195 - 09/20/10 02:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

boycott them all!


--------------------
- grimR


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
http://egolost.com 
"I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself."

- Don Juan teachings

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Invisiblenasem
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: grimR]
    #13223120 - 09/20/10 05:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

grimR said:
boycott kill them all!




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I dont know

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Green_T]
    #13225477 - 09/21/10 02:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

What Green_T said makes a lot of sense. I think that Prop 19 is a very necessary step in the right direction. Anyone who prefers CCHHI should still vote yes on Prop 19! Not only because CCHHI isn't going to pass if Prop 19 doesn't, but because Prop 19 has the attention of much of the US! There are people all over the country waiting to see what you Californians are going to do, and the result will effect most states down the road (Especially the west coast and the rest of the 14 states that have legalized medical marijuana already).

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Offlinebossocto
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13225799 - 09/21/10 07:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

+1 and +5 for the work you put into your post(s)

"While there are good, reasonable arguments to be made in favor of Proposition 19, which would legalize marijuana for personal use and allow counties to legalize it entirely, it strikes us that the potential harm from legalizing pot far outweighs any good it might accomplish."

Wtf. I totally just saw a video of a mexican gang cut off an officer's head the other day; and that was just one guy, they've been doing that for how long now? Who wouldn't rather have a bunch of people walking around high than getting their heads cut off over some stupid shit? Not that p19 has much to do with Mexico, but seriously LEGALIZE IT


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This website is GIVING ME THE SHITS!!

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InvisibleMelusina
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: bossocto]
    #13225896 - 09/21/10 08:06 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't smoke pot, just because I don't really like it, no other reason. However, I watch all legalization attempts in the hope that the infamous "slippery slope" phenomenon is real.

To my logic, if marijuana is legalized, mushrooms, of course, should be. Both are natural, non-addictive, all but impossible to overdose on, and threaten only minimal physiological danger (mainly to those with serious conditions to begin with). Sure, there is a greater amount of social stigma associated with shroomies, but marijuana has come a LOOOOONG way in the past 20 years or so in that department.

Then again, to my logic, both should already be legal, and so should every other drug, if caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, pharmaceuticals are legal. So my logic apparently is not worth very much.

I'm sort of afraid that MJ will be legalized (and "religious use" will be an "inalienable right") while the rest of us still have to hide and live in fear of literally being CAGED LIKE ANIMALS just to practice OUR inalienable human right to use psychedelics.

Those who just prefer pot to alcohol (or WITH their alcohol), but who aren't interested in any other drug (and I know quite a few), will stop there, because why should they care? And that sucks for those of us who want to use drugs for serious mental/spiritual work. Of course I believe that both uses are perfectly okay, and of course marijuana has applications to both, I am not saying that it doesn't.

But it's sort of like drugs' popular sister...just because she is the homecoming queen doesn't mean that other drugs won't continue to have the shit beat out of them on a daily basis.

I'm not saying MJ shouldn't be legalized...I believe wholeheartedly it should. No one should have to go to prison because they prefer being stoned to drunk. That alone is reason enough for me, not to mention the WIDE range of other uses. But...what about everyone else? Don't we get to come along?

Edited by Melusina (09/21/10 08:08 AM)

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InvisibleFleshCap
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees [Re: veggie]
    #13225981 - 09/21/10 08:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The bill may not pass, but no one can deny the progress we have made in the past 50 years. Marijuana is more socially accepted than it has ever been. The day will come... it may just be a while


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Melusina]
    #13226238 - 09/21/10 09:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Melusina said:
To my logic, if marijuana is legalized, mushrooms, of course, should be. Both are natural, non-addictive, all but impossible to overdose on, and threaten only minimal physiological danger (mainly to those with serious conditions to begin with). Sure, there is a greater amount of social stigma associated with shroomies, but marijuana has come a LOOOOONG way in the past 20 years or so in that department.

Then again, to my logic, both should already be legal, and so should every other drug, if caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, pharmaceuticals are legal. So my logic apparently is not worth very much.




I think even "unnatural" addictive drugs which are possible to overdose on should be legal.

I put "unnatural" in quotes, because that is quite arbitrary when it comes to safety etc. Did you know DMT was synthesized before people realized it could be found in nature? What if someone discovers a plant that contains a synthetic substance such as meth (such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_rigidula)? Would it suddenly be considered safe?

Banning any substance skirts around the major ethical question: When is it right for the government to ban someone from taking a drug?

On another note, I think mushrooms aren't going to be legal anytime soon, but eventually they will be moved down to schedule II due to research. The day all drugs will be legal is when the people realize that prohibition is never the better solution. Ideally, I would like to see the DEA still exist, but work in the same way as the BATF: prevent smuggling and counterfeits.

Please read the "legalize meth" link in my sig : http://www.strike-the-root.com/61/victor/victor1.html


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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Green_T]
    #13227245 - 09/21/10 02:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
Quote:

Melusina said:
To my logic, if marijuana is legalized, mushrooms, of course, should be. Both are natural, non-addictive, all but impossible to overdose on, and threaten only minimal physiological danger (mainly to those with serious conditions to begin with). Sure, there is a greater amount of social stigma associated with shroomies, but marijuana has come a LOOOOONG way in the past 20 years or so in that department.

Then again, to my logic, both should already be legal, and so should every other drug, if caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, pharmaceuticals are legal. So my logic apparently is not worth very much.




I think even "unnatural" addictive drugs which are possible to overdose on should be legal.

I put "unnatural" in quotes, because that is quite arbitrary when it comes to safety etc. Did you know DMT was synthesized before people realized it could be found in nature? What if someone discovers a plant that contains a synthetic substance such as meth (such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_rigidula)? Would it suddenly be considered safe?

Banning any substance skirts around the major ethical question: When is it right for the government to ban someone from taking a drug?

On another note, I think mushrooms aren't going to be legal anytime soon, but eventually they will be moved down to schedule II due to research. The day all drugs will be legal is when the people realize that prohibition is never the better solution. Ideally, I would like to see the DEA still exist, but work in the same way as the BATF: prevent smuggling and counterfeits.

Please read the "legalize meth" link in my sig : http://www.strike-the-root.com/61/victor/victor1.html




I agree with you completely...I believe it a human being's birthright to go wherever he or she wants to in his or her mind. Prohibition is a form of "thought police" type mind control.

I was just pointing out the parallels between the two...the arguments for legalization of pot are spot on with mushrooms. I should have added that, like marijuana, psilocybin has medical benefits as well, for instance as a treatment fro cluster headaches. The only reason pot is about to be legalized is that it's more popular, basically. In part because it is more recreational.

My point is that it's another self-contradicting facet of society. Either drugs are ok, or they aren't.

Every human society throughout history has used drugs. We evolved to use drugs. The hysterics over it are childish and ludicrous.

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Melusina]
    #13227264 - 09/21/10 02:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Melusina said:
Every human society throughout history has used drugs. We evolved to use drugs. The hysterics over it are childish and ludicrous.




This right here is the bottom line.  There will never be such thing as a drug free society at least for the foreseeable future.  People love drugs.  They aren't going away anytime soon so get used to them.


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I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Melusina]
    #13227441 - 09/21/10 03:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

the biggest difference between arguments for pot vs shrooms, other than stigma of course, is driving under the influence. it shouldn't ever happen, but it does already. driving on mushrooms is significantly worse than driving high, and imo more dangerous than even driving drunk. and a lot of people are going to correlate legal access with more common use, including use behind the wheel.

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: psilyguy]
    #13229428 - 09/21/10 10:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilyguy said:
the biggest difference between arguments for pot vs shrooms, other than stigma of course, is driving under the influence. it shouldn't ever happen, but it does already. driving on mushrooms is significantly worse than driving high, and imo more dangerous than even driving drunk. and a lot of people are going to correlate legal access with more common use, including use behind the wheel.




The "driving under the influence" argument is horse shit, though. How many people would choose to driver on mushrooms because they were legal? Or, maybe a better way to think about it: how many of those people are not driving under the influence simply because the mushrooms they're on aren't legal?


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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: whatever123]
    #13229857 - 09/22/10 01:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

it is a horseshit argument, but a lot of people won't see it the way you just described. alot of people will see it as people that might drive while on mushrooms, but never take mushrooms cause they are illegal, are now going to drive while on mushrooms.

i'm on your side of the issue. i think all drugs should be legal actually. just saying with mushrooms the dui argument holds more weight than with pot, and people do try to make that argument against legal pot.

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: psilyguy]
    #13229976 - 09/22/10 03:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^ It really sucks how the argument goes "if we legalize X, people will go to work and drive under the influence of X. Oh noes!" :rolleyes:

I can see melusina's point, how shrooms are very parallel to weed, and would be the next logical step to legalization. I think out of MDMA, opiates, cocaine, pcp, methamphetamine, LSD, and shrooms, legalization will go in this order:

MDMA = Shrooms >  LSD > Cocaine > Opiates > PCP (all)

I base this on the idea that the earlier ones are probably more acceptable to society (i.e. "soft" drugs). Keep in mind that the time scale will be on a long scale (think mayan long count!).

Alternatively, at some point the war on drugs will be considered a complete failure and blanket prohibition will be repealed.

I hope for a future where a framework exists for "open source" drug information (think erowid or wikipedia) so people can make educated choices about what to do with their mind and bodies. The DEA will still exist, but act to enforce quality and prosecute smugglers and counterfeiters.

HOWEVER: All this fantasy rests on prop 19 passing! I can see the prohibitionists fearing this about the "slippery slope" argument, but hey, is that necessarily a bad thing? I can imagine a racist in the 60's saying "if we let them swim in our pools, next thing you know they'll be allowed to marry our women!"


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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13248197 - 09/26/10 07:09 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I was asked to sticky this thread. This will be a good place to fine tune our Prop. 19 arguments/counter-arguments, and post links to any pro Prop.19 comments we have submitted to newspapers.

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13264800 - 09/29/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The reason the media is almost unanimous and on the wrong side is because the media is controlled from the top and the big leaders are in cahoots with the booze and drug industries. They aren't saying what they honestly think, they are saying what they are told to think. Ignore the media!


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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13284497 - 10/03/10 02:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've been jumping back and forth on the issue of Prop 19 for a while now, if I were eligible to vote for or against it at this point I have no idea which way I'd go. However, I can definitely say that the more I read about Prop 19, the less I like it. It's a flawed, poorly worded, and overly restrictive bill, and if it passes we definitely need to get Jack Herer's California Cannabis Hemp & Health Initiative (CCHHI) voted in in 2012 to replace it.

It bothers me to see so many pro-legalization people who don't acknowledge the downsides of Prop 19. It may be a necessary step in the legalization movement at this point, but overall it's not a very good bill, and more pro-legalization people need to see that.

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Morningrise]
    #13284618 - 10/03/10 03:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

it makes it legal, how is it not a good bill? you can grow it, wtf man... how is it not good?


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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #13284627 - 10/03/10 03:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

also my favorite, the desert scum, err sun. it's bad for your hearts old people!


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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: ReposadoXochipilli] * 1
    #13284700 - 10/03/10 03:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

CCHHI is a much better bill, but if 19 doesn't pass, then neither will CCHHI. Prop 19 isn't just about the effects; a "yes" vote is a "yes" for the concept of legalization - a way to say, "there needs to be a debate. The majority of the public doesn't want penalties for pot".

Prop 19 would remove criminal penalties for most people who smoke, which would be a BIG benefit.

The people who would not benefit from prop 19 are illegal drug dealers, and medicinal outlets that sell to people with sham illnesses. I think it would be extremely selfish for them to sabotage passing the prop so they can benefit over a system that fucks over so many people.

Sure, prop 19 isn't perfect, but it is a step that will lead to better things. It will be the biggest expansion of cannabis rights since the early 90's. Don't cast a "no" vote because you disagree with 1 minor detail.


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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Green_T]
    #13285092 - 10/03/10 04:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not voting one way or another (since I can't), in case that was directed specifically at me. And I do acknowledge that this may very well be a necessary stepping stone in the legalization movement.

But I just don't like how so many pro-legalization people won't acknowledge the downsides of it, and in fact attack anyone who doesn't fully support it as being a mindless prohibitionist, when in fact there are many pro-legalization activists who are against it for many valid reasons (not just a few minor details as I've heard many times). I'm glad that you, Green_T, realize how much better CCHHI is, but I'm worried that most people won't care anymore once Prop 19 passes.

To sum it up, I realise that this may be a stepping stone to proper legalization, and it's not that I'm specifically against it or anything, it's just that there are definite problems with it that more people need to see and acknowledge, and a far superior alternative coming up in just a couple years, which I truly hope will become the full focus of the legalization movement as soon as Prop 19's fate is decided.

Edited by Morningrise (10/03/10 04:26 PM)

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise] * 1
    #13285135 - 10/03/10 04:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It's very important that Prop. 19 passes.

Morningrise says that "It's a flawed, poorly worded, and overly restrictive bill". He doesn't give specifics but I have a good idea what he is referring to, and he is absolutely correct. But Prop. 19 was not written for the pro-legalization people, it is written for the anti marijuana crowd. It gives them a way to vote yes on a behavior of which they don't approve. It addresses their concerns. It is a compromise. If we are expecting a law to pass that is acceptable primarily to avid pot smokers, it's not going to happen.

Recreational cannabis enthusiasts may want to smoke throughout the day at work regardless of their profession, smoke while they are driving, not pay any taxes at all for buying and selling, want to grow an unlimited amount, want the smoking age 16 or less, etc. etc. The thing is, a law like that, an 'ideal' law, will not pass even in our grandkids lifetime. I guarantee you.

One could say the US Constitution is a poorly worded document. To this day people study it, interpret it, ponder what the writers actually meant, add and subtract amendments to it. It's a process. If the founding fathers waited for a perfectly worded document, we would still be part of the British Empire.

If we want a law more to our liking, Prop. 19 needs to be on the books first, in my opinion.

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #13285141 - 10/03/10 04:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Knewnews said:
it makes it legal, how is it not a good bill? you can grow it, wtf man... how is it not good?



Limit of 25 square feet per residence (not per person), can't carry more than an ounce in public, there's a "recommended" $50 an ounce tax (which could in fact go higher than that), it's illegal to distribute to anyone without a ridiculously expensive commercial license (so it's still illegal to share your homegrown crop with anyone else, and it's still illegal to possess weed that wasn't obtained from a source allowed by the bill), it allows for taxes to go back into law enforcement, parts of the bill are much too vaguely/poorly worded (ie. illegal to smoke in the same "space" as a minor, with "space" being undefined so that the police can define it as anything they want), and many other things that I don't remember at the moment.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: veggie]
    #13285183 - 10/03/10 04:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

veggie said:
Morningrise says that "It's a flawed, poorly worded, and overly restrictive bill". He doesn't give specifics but I have a good idea what he is referring to, and he is absolutely correct. But Prop. 19 was not written for the pro-legalization people, it is written for the anti marijuana crowd. It gives them a way to vote yes on a behavior of which they don't approve. It addresses their concerns. It is a compromise. If we are expecting a law to pass that is acceptable primarily to avid pot smokers, it's not going to happen.



Yeah, this basically covers what bothers me about it, and what my point in my last couple posts was - the fact that it was primarily written for the anti-marijuana crowd and yet I see so many people who think the opposite, that it was written with their best interests in mind. I agree with you guys that Prop 19 most likely needs to pass before we can get anything better, but it just bothers me that so many pot smokers don't realise that it wasn't written with their interests in mind, and that we can (and should) do much better.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13285414 - 10/03/10 05:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i think most people do realize its a compromise and not the ideal law. it isn't close to perfect, but if i lived in california i would without a doubt vote yes. the proposition, imo, is better in every way then things are NOW. the world can't change over night, so any improvement is a great improvement.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13285676 - 10/03/10 06:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If it isn't a perfect improvement then lets keep it illegal forever. Does that make any sense? If people see that the world isn't going off the deep end after it's legalized, perhaps in another year or two that further bill or prop could be passed. You have to walk before you can run. Lets get walking.


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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise] * 1
    #13285689 - 10/03/10 06:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Morningrise, when you say 'pot smokers best interests', I don't know exactly what that means. It's like the best interests of coffee drinkers, or french fry eaters, or people who wear hats. I don't know that you can put your finger on that. To have an initiative written that covers some mystery common denominator that will be embraced by all pot smokers, if that is even possible, is one thing. It still has to pass. By a majority.

If you smoke pot and all your friends smoke pot too, it may seem that everybody smokes pot. Fact is pot smokers are in the minority. And they are a very diverse group. It's not like the last generation where a pot smoker is the long haired hippie freak anti-war protester. Yeah, it's college kids tossing frisbees, but it's also people in law enforcement, judges, politicians, CEO's, athletes, teachers, clergy, the cream of the crop, our best and brightest. But still a minority.

So what is in all of these pot smokers, and non pot smokers, best interest may not even be pot related, but is what will come about after pot is legalized and regulated. It's important to look at the bigger picture and what the passing of Prop. 19 will do for everyone, not just a pot smoker.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: veggie]
    #13286156 - 10/03/10 08:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
If it isn't a perfect improvement then lets keep it illegal forever. Does that make any sense? If people see that the world isn't going off the deep end after it's legalized, perhaps in another year or two that further bill or prop could be passed. You have to walk before you can run. Lets get walking.




I'm not saying that I don't want it to pass or that we'd be better off if it didn't (I actually said several times that I recognize it's a necessary stepping stone to proper legalization), but I am saying that I don't particularly like it because it's a sub-par bill with a lot of flaws, and too many people are ignoring that, and I'm afraid that once it passes a lot of people won't care about changing pot laws any further or loosening the restrictions because they'll feel like they've won, or it's "good enough" for them, or whatever.

It may be fine for a couple years as a "starter" bill for legalization, but we can do so much better for a long-term legalization model. And that's why I sincerely hope all the people putting so much time, effort, and money into getting Prop 19 passed will put in just as much for Jack Herer's initiative in two years.



Quote:

veggie said:
Morningrise, when you say 'pot smokers best interests', I don't know exactly what that means. It's like the best interests of coffee drinkers, or french fry eaters, or people who wear hats. I don't know that you can put your finger on that. To have an initiative written that covers some mystery common denominator that will be embraced by all pot smokers, if that is even possible, is one thing. It still has to pass. By a majority.

If you smoke pot and all your friends smoke pot too, it may seem that everybody smokes pot. Fact is pot smokers are in the minority. And they are a very diverse group. It's not like the last generation where a pot smoker is the long haired hippie freak anti-war protester. Yeah, it's college kids tossing frisbees, but it's also people in law enforcement, judges, politicians, CEO's, athletes, teachers, clergy, the cream of the crop, our best and brightest. But still a minority.

So what is in all of these pot smokers, and non pot smokers, best interest may not even be pot related, but is what will come about after pot is legalized and regulated. It's important to look at the bigger picture and what the passing of Prop. 19 will do for everyone, not just a pot smoker.




I guess my post was just poorly worded, I was pretty much just agreeing with your statement about Prop 19 being written for the anti-pot crowd, and not for the pro-legalization crowd, and how it bothered me that a lot of people are acting like they're being given the most incredible, miraculous pro-pot bill ever when that's not really the case.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13287482 - 10/04/10 04:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^ Morningrise, my earlier post wasn't an attack on you :hippie:

I'd like to point out some points you made, though

1) Limit of 25 square feet per residence (not per person)
It is currently ZERO square feet per residence. Even with the small 5'x5' square, prohibitionists are still pulling figures like "240,000 joints per year". If it were more, they could distort it further. I think it is a decent compromise.

2) can't carry more than an ounce in public
Again, now it is ZERO. The reason for this compromise is so they can control street dealing to some degree. However, even if you are driving around with POUNDS, it would be difficult for the cop to find out. If they smell marijuana now, they can't force you to open the trunk.

3) there's a "recommended" $50 an ounce tax (which could in fact go higher than that)
Keep in mind there needs to be heavy taxation at this point to appease the voter base. This won't make your weed more expensive though. A $400 ounce on the blackmarket would cost $250 in the legal market (which includes the tax). And I think the CA government knows that if they tax it too heavily, the black market will spring up again. Roger Rabbit said that the market price for cannabis would be $40/pound in a truly free market.

4) it's illegal to distribute to anyone without a ridiculously expensive commercial license (so it's still illegal to share your homegrown crop with anyone else, and it's still illegal to possess weed that wasn't obtained from a source allowed by the bill)
Again, illegal presently. I think it is the same law with beer - if I brew above a certain amount, i can't sell it. If this provision wasn't in there, the tax incentive wouldn't be as great. I also think the law enforcement on this would be MINIMAL. The reason for it to be illegal to obtain from an illegal source is to stifle out the mexigangs.

5) it allows for taxes to go back into law enforcement, parts of the bill are much too vaguely/poorly worded (ie. illegal to smoke in the same "space" as a minor, with "space" being undefined so that the police can define it as anything they want),
I hope some taxes go to fighting the cartels fucking up our forests. I don't like that whole "space" thing either, but I think there may be amendments and court cases later.

6) and many other things that I don't remember at the moment.
Fair enough :smile:

Quote:

...it's a sub-par bill with a lot of flaws, and too many people are ignoring that, and I'm afraid that once it passes a lot of people won't care about changing pot laws any further or loosening the restrictions because they'll feel like they've won, or it's "good enough" for them, or whatever.

..it bothered me that a lot of people are acting like they're being given the most incredible, miraculous pro-pot bill ever when that's not really the case.





SPOT ON. The problem is people think this bill is "legalization" when it is somewhere between legalization and decriminalization. I call it "partial-legalization".

But I think if people can be shown that even though prop 19 is good enough for them, CCHHI would be better in their self-interest. For example, you can tell people that CCHHI would allow for more boutique growing and better strains, and is more conducive to small business growers. I don't think anyone who voted "yes on 19" would necessarily vote "no on CCHHI". Also, it is quite easy to get non-smokers to vote yes. All you have to show them is that ANY prohibition causes extra harm, and this bill still allows for some prohibitions.

But remember, other states might be able to campaign to put CCHHI on the ballot instead of a version of prop 19. Prop 19 is "testing the waters" to show the prohibitionists that the sky won't fall down if some adults smoke a plant. I guess California would be the guinea pig that shows the less criminalization, the better.


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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Green_T]
    #13287709 - 10/04/10 07:00 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
^ Morningrise, my earlier post wasn't an attack on you :hippie:



Yeah, I realise that, I didn't mean to sound super defensive or anything, you know how it is when talking to people online :tongue2:

Those points you made were all good, and if this was in any other state (ie. one with harsher laws/enforcement) I would definitely support Prop 19 as an improvement over the current situation. But here's the thing. In California, having a medical card (which from what I hear, anyone can get) gives you more pot smoking/growing freedom than Prop 19 will - you can grow/carry more, the extra costs are only $150 per year as opposed to $50 per ounce, etc. So if you have a med card right now in California, it's more legal for you than it would be for a non-card holder under Prop 19. Also, pot was just decriminalized so you can already carry up to an ounce without getting arrested. Combine that with the fact that there's a far better bill coming up in two years and it just seems like it's not a whole of change, for a lot of restrictions and loopholes and problems (though again, I recognize the necessity of sending the message out that we can get it legalized, and I recognize that it's a first step to proper pot laws).

As far as the taxes issues you quoted, those are issues that CCHHI improves upon (which is why I brought them up), same with the distribution issue. Also, the "space" thing bothers me because it seems like it's a loophole that will be very easy for cops to abuse. That's not to say that that will happen for sure, but it's just the fact that something like that even made it into the bill is bothersome. And, going back to the distribution issue, it's not just illegal to sell/give your homegrown weed to friends, it's actually illegal to possess weed that wasn't either grown yourself or bought from a licensed dispensary. The fact that some possession will still be illegal, on a "legalization" bill, seems ridiculous to me.


Quote:

SPOT ON. The problem is people think this bill is "legalization" when it is somewhere between legalization and decriminalization. I call it "partial-legalization".




Well said, that's a pretty good way of putting it.


Quote:

But I think if people can be shown that even though prop 19 is good enough for them, CCHHI would be better in their self-interest. For example, you can tell people that CCHHI would allow for more boutique growing and better strains, and is more conducive to small business growers. I don't think anyone who voted "yes on 19" would necessarily vote "no on CCHHI". Also, it is quite easy to get non-smokers to vote yes. All you have to show them is that ANY prohibition causes extra harm, and this bill still allows for some prohibitions.

But remember, other states might be able to campaign to put CCHHI on the ballot instead of a version of prop 19. Prop 19 is "testing the waters" to show the prohibitionists that the sky won't fall down if some adults smoke a plant. I guess California would be the guinea pig that shows the less criminalization, the better.




I certainly hope so. Perhaps the prohibitionist opposition will die down a bit by 2012 when they see that legal weed isn't the end of the world. But I hope pot smokers/growers get out to vote for CCHHI, my main concern with Prop 19 is still that people will declare "victory" or "good enough!" after it passes and then consider the battle for legalization to be over.

Hopefully we can convince people to get out and vote for something even better in a couple years time.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13288099 - 10/04/10 09:39 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^ Good points.

Here is my take on prop 215:

In order to qualify, you have to go see a doctor, and get a diagnosis. Then you have to see another doctor, who recommends marijuana. Almost anyone can qualify, but I have several problems with suggesting that (healthy) people get a prescription rather than buy under prop 19:

1) This problem is an ethical problem: people shouldn't have to go see two doctors to be able to smoke marijuana. People who are perfectly healthy (the majority of smokers) should be allowed to smoke, and they shouldn't have to fake an illness. 215 shouldn't be a front for legalization, or a way for people to sneak around the law to get their pot: it should be a way for sick people to get a medicine that helps them. This brings us to problem #2.

2) This is a moral problem: people take advantage of 215, which is harming the rest of the country.  People who don't have a legitimate illness and hide behind medical cards make medical marijuana seem like a sham. People in other states point to California and say "there is no medical use, people are just trying to get an excuse to get high".

As a result, since many healthy people have cards, the idea that marijuana has medical use is less credible. Therefore, people find it more difficult to pass MMJ bills in other states, so there are states where people are suffering from illnesses in which marijuana can help, but can't smoke it.

Basically, if you are like most people and perfectly healthy, by getting a medical card you are taking advantage of a system to help sick people, and harming other sick people.


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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Green_T]
    #13288431 - 10/04/10 11:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've heard there are doctors that you can simply pay to give you a med card. Granted I'm not from California and don't know exactly how the system works (I'm sure someone from there can clarify for us), but from what I've heard it's very easy for just about anyone to get a med card. That being said, I definitely agree that a medical system should be for genuine medical needs, and not just a way for people to get high legally (besides, when so many people abuse the system for that purpose it's time to just legalize it already).

But basically my point was that it's relatively easy to get a med card, and between the med system, the recent decriminalization, and the upcoming bill in two years, California already has pretty loose pot laws compared to the rest of the US. And when you take the current Cali laws into consideration, plus all of Prop 19's restrictions, poor wording, and possible loopholes, and it seems to me that it's not that big of an improvement over the current situation from a practical point of view. (again I acknowledge that from an ideological/political standpoint getting it passed would be a pretty major thing within the legalization movement)

Either way, less than a month to go until the vote now. Should be interesting to see how this goes. And I hope all the supporters of Jack Herer's intiative will come out and start campaigning for it soon enough.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13288768 - 10/04/10 12:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Morningrise, I think an important aspect you've missed is the fact that if this bill passes, no matter how restrictive it may seem, it will open up the door for all other 49 states to begin legalization.  That is the biggest oversight on this entire issue.  Yes the bill isn't perfect, I agree completely.  But if Cali legalizes, we will soon have legal weed in all other 49 states in a relatively short period of time.  THAT is why we need this to pass.  People will be more than happy to refine and tweak the finer details later, but we can't make ANY progress if this bill does not pass.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: SuperD]
    #13288840 - 10/04/10 12:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
But if Cali legalizes, we will soon have legal weed in all other 49 states in a relatively short period of time.




maybe legal weed in all other 13 states that have decriminalized it already and perhaps a few more. i could be wrong, but there are some states that i can't see legalizing it for a very, very long time.

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: SuperD]
    #13289799 - 10/04/10 05:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
Morningrise, I think an important aspect you've missed is the fact that if this bill passes, no matter how restrictive it may seem, it will open up the door for all other 49 states to begin legalization.  That is the biggest oversight on this entire issue.  Yes the bill isn't perfect, I agree completely.  But if Cali legalizes, we will soon have legal weed in all other 49 states in a relatively short period of time.  THAT is why we need this to pass.  People will be more than happy to refine and tweak the finer details later, but we can't make ANY progress if this bill does not pass.



I'm not denying that it's an important bill for the legalization movement, quite the opposite, I recognize and accept the fact that passing it would be a major milestone. I'm not saying that we'd be better off if it didn't pass or anything like that. I'm just saying that it has a lot of glaring flaws, and I'm concerned by the fact that a lot of people either don't acknowledge them or don't seem to care, simply because this bill has the word "legalize" attached to it, and I'm concerned that if/when it passes a lot of people will think the battle's over and will accept it as being "good enough" for them, and won't bother to continue trying to improve pot laws.

I have no problem with Prop 19 as a starting point for legalization, and as I've said before I recognize that it's a necessary stepping stone toward better laws. But for me it's absolutely not good enough to be used to set the standard for long-term, widespread legalization. Of course we can't expect to go from 0 to 100 overnight, but at the same time we've made a LOT of progress over the years to get to where we are now, and we shouldn't sell ourselves short either.

To sum up my view on the matter:

I don't have a problem with Prop 19 passing, I'm simply concerned that too many people will overlook its significant downsides just because it has the word "legalize" in its title (or because they think it's good enough or that they can't do any better), and will allow it to become the standard for legalization bills in North America and perhaps even the rest of the world, when we can and should do much better in the long term.

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13291801 - 10/05/10 01:09 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Unfortunately this is not how legislation works. Laws evolve towards a 'better' system. Nothing starts perfect, and anything that is going to benefit the minority group of marijuana users and little else would not get passed from the get go. There would be no appeal to the majority who doesnt smoke, or care one way or the other about user rights.

If it doesnt pass this november I think itll go to the backburner for another few decades.


--------------------
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