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InvisibleveggieM

Registered: 07/25/04
Posts: 17,538
Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise] * 1
    #13285689 - 10/03/10 06:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Morningrise, when you say 'pot smokers best interests', I don't know exactly what that means. It's like the best interests of coffee drinkers, or french fry eaters, or people who wear hats. I don't know that you can put your finger on that. To have an initiative written that covers some mystery common denominator that will be embraced by all pot smokers, if that is even possible, is one thing. It still has to pass. By a majority.

If you smoke pot and all your friends smoke pot too, it may seem that everybody smokes pot. Fact is pot smokers are in the minority. And they are a very diverse group. It's not like the last generation where a pot smoker is the long haired hippie freak anti-war protester. Yeah, it's college kids tossing frisbees, but it's also people in law enforcement, judges, politicians, CEO's, athletes, teachers, clergy, the cream of the crop, our best and brightest. But still a minority.

So what is in all of these pot smokers, and non pot smokers, best interest may not even be pot related, but is what will come about after pot is legalized and regulated. It's important to look at the bigger picture and what the passing of Prop. 19 will do for everyone, not just a pot smoker.

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: veggie]
    #13286156 - 10/03/10 08:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
If it isn't a perfect improvement then lets keep it illegal forever. Does that make any sense? If people see that the world isn't going off the deep end after it's legalized, perhaps in another year or two that further bill or prop could be passed. You have to walk before you can run. Lets get walking.




I'm not saying that I don't want it to pass or that we'd be better off if it didn't (I actually said several times that I recognize it's a necessary stepping stone to proper legalization), but I am saying that I don't particularly like it because it's a sub-par bill with a lot of flaws, and too many people are ignoring that, and I'm afraid that once it passes a lot of people won't care about changing pot laws any further or loosening the restrictions because they'll feel like they've won, or it's "good enough" for them, or whatever.

It may be fine for a couple years as a "starter" bill for legalization, but we can do so much better for a long-term legalization model. And that's why I sincerely hope all the people putting so much time, effort, and money into getting Prop 19 passed will put in just as much for Jack Herer's initiative in two years.



Quote:

veggie said:
Morningrise, when you say 'pot smokers best interests', I don't know exactly what that means. It's like the best interests of coffee drinkers, or french fry eaters, or people who wear hats. I don't know that you can put your finger on that. To have an initiative written that covers some mystery common denominator that will be embraced by all pot smokers, if that is even possible, is one thing. It still has to pass. By a majority.

If you smoke pot and all your friends smoke pot too, it may seem that everybody smokes pot. Fact is pot smokers are in the minority. And they are a very diverse group. It's not like the last generation where a pot smoker is the long haired hippie freak anti-war protester. Yeah, it's college kids tossing frisbees, but it's also people in law enforcement, judges, politicians, CEO's, athletes, teachers, clergy, the cream of the crop, our best and brightest. But still a minority.

So what is in all of these pot smokers, and non pot smokers, best interest may not even be pot related, but is what will come about after pot is legalized and regulated. It's important to look at the bigger picture and what the passing of Prop. 19 will do for everyone, not just a pot smoker.




I guess my post was just poorly worded, I was pretty much just agreeing with your statement about Prop 19 being written for the anti-pot crowd, and not for the pro-legalization crowd, and how it bothered me that a lot of people are acting like they're being given the most incredible, miraculous pro-pot bill ever when that's not really the case.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Registered: 10/02/08
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13287482 - 10/04/10 04:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^ Morningrise, my earlier post wasn't an attack on you :hippie:

I'd like to point out some points you made, though

1) Limit of 25 square feet per residence (not per person)
It is currently ZERO square feet per residence. Even with the small 5'x5' square, prohibitionists are still pulling figures like "240,000 joints per year". If it were more, they could distort it further. I think it is a decent compromise.

2) can't carry more than an ounce in public
Again, now it is ZERO. The reason for this compromise is so they can control street dealing to some degree. However, even if you are driving around with POUNDS, it would be difficult for the cop to find out. If they smell marijuana now, they can't force you to open the trunk.

3) there's a "recommended" $50 an ounce tax (which could in fact go higher than that)
Keep in mind there needs to be heavy taxation at this point to appease the voter base. This won't make your weed more expensive though. A $400 ounce on the blackmarket would cost $250 in the legal market (which includes the tax). And I think the CA government knows that if they tax it too heavily, the black market will spring up again. Roger Rabbit said that the market price for cannabis would be $40/pound in a truly free market.

4) it's illegal to distribute to anyone without a ridiculously expensive commercial license (so it's still illegal to share your homegrown crop with anyone else, and it's still illegal to possess weed that wasn't obtained from a source allowed by the bill)
Again, illegal presently. I think it is the same law with beer - if I brew above a certain amount, i can't sell it. If this provision wasn't in there, the tax incentive wouldn't be as great. I also think the law enforcement on this would be MINIMAL. The reason for it to be illegal to obtain from an illegal source is to stifle out the mexigangs.

5) it allows for taxes to go back into law enforcement, parts of the bill are much too vaguely/poorly worded (ie. illegal to smoke in the same "space" as a minor, with "space" being undefined so that the police can define it as anything they want),
I hope some taxes go to fighting the cartels fucking up our forests. I don't like that whole "space" thing either, but I think there may be amendments and court cases later.

6) and many other things that I don't remember at the moment.
Fair enough :smile:

Quote:

...it's a sub-par bill with a lot of flaws, and too many people are ignoring that, and I'm afraid that once it passes a lot of people won't care about changing pot laws any further or loosening the restrictions because they'll feel like they've won, or it's "good enough" for them, or whatever.

..it bothered me that a lot of people are acting like they're being given the most incredible, miraculous pro-pot bill ever when that's not really the case.





SPOT ON. The problem is people think this bill is "legalization" when it is somewhere between legalization and decriminalization. I call it "partial-legalization".

But I think if people can be shown that even though prop 19 is good enough for them, CCHHI would be better in their self-interest. For example, you can tell people that CCHHI would allow for more boutique growing and better strains, and is more conducive to small business growers. I don't think anyone who voted "yes on 19" would necessarily vote "no on CCHHI". Also, it is quite easy to get non-smokers to vote yes. All you have to show them is that ANY prohibition causes extra harm, and this bill still allows for some prohibitions.

But remember, other states might be able to campaign to put CCHHI on the ballot instead of a version of prop 19. Prop 19 is "testing the waters" to show the prohibitionists that the sky won't fall down if some adults smoke a plant. I guess California would be the guinea pig that shows the less criminalization, the better.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Green_T]
    #13287709 - 10/04/10 07:00 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
^ Morningrise, my earlier post wasn't an attack on you :hippie:



Yeah, I realise that, I didn't mean to sound super defensive or anything, you know how it is when talking to people online :tongue2:

Those points you made were all good, and if this was in any other state (ie. one with harsher laws/enforcement) I would definitely support Prop 19 as an improvement over the current situation. But here's the thing. In California, having a medical card (which from what I hear, anyone can get) gives you more pot smoking/growing freedom than Prop 19 will - you can grow/carry more, the extra costs are only $150 per year as opposed to $50 per ounce, etc. So if you have a med card right now in California, it's more legal for you than it would be for a non-card holder under Prop 19. Also, pot was just decriminalized so you can already carry up to an ounce without getting arrested. Combine that with the fact that there's a far better bill coming up in two years and it just seems like it's not a whole of change, for a lot of restrictions and loopholes and problems (though again, I recognize the necessity of sending the message out that we can get it legalized, and I recognize that it's a first step to proper pot laws).

As far as the taxes issues you quoted, those are issues that CCHHI improves upon (which is why I brought them up), same with the distribution issue. Also, the "space" thing bothers me because it seems like it's a loophole that will be very easy for cops to abuse. That's not to say that that will happen for sure, but it's just the fact that something like that even made it into the bill is bothersome. And, going back to the distribution issue, it's not just illegal to sell/give your homegrown weed to friends, it's actually illegal to possess weed that wasn't either grown yourself or bought from a licensed dispensary. The fact that some possession will still be illegal, on a "legalization" bill, seems ridiculous to me.


Quote:

SPOT ON. The problem is people think this bill is "legalization" when it is somewhere between legalization and decriminalization. I call it "partial-legalization".




Well said, that's a pretty good way of putting it.


Quote:

But I think if people can be shown that even though prop 19 is good enough for them, CCHHI would be better in their self-interest. For example, you can tell people that CCHHI would allow for more boutique growing and better strains, and is more conducive to small business growers. I don't think anyone who voted "yes on 19" would necessarily vote "no on CCHHI". Also, it is quite easy to get non-smokers to vote yes. All you have to show them is that ANY prohibition causes extra harm, and this bill still allows for some prohibitions.

But remember, other states might be able to campaign to put CCHHI on the ballot instead of a version of prop 19. Prop 19 is "testing the waters" to show the prohibitionists that the sky won't fall down if some adults smoke a plant. I guess California would be the guinea pig that shows the less criminalization, the better.




I certainly hope so. Perhaps the prohibitionist opposition will die down a bit by 2012 when they see that legal weed isn't the end of the world. But I hope pot smokers/growers get out to vote for CCHHI, my main concern with Prop 19 is still that people will declare "victory" or "good enough!" after it passes and then consider the battle for legalization to be over.

Hopefully we can convince people to get out and vote for something even better in a couple years time.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Registered: 10/02/08
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13288099 - 10/04/10 09:39 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^ Good points.

Here is my take on prop 215:

In order to qualify, you have to go see a doctor, and get a diagnosis. Then you have to see another doctor, who recommends marijuana. Almost anyone can qualify, but I have several problems with suggesting that (healthy) people get a prescription rather than buy under prop 19:

1) This problem is an ethical problem: people shouldn't have to go see two doctors to be able to smoke marijuana. People who are perfectly healthy (the majority of smokers) should be allowed to smoke, and they shouldn't have to fake an illness. 215 shouldn't be a front for legalization, or a way for people to sneak around the law to get their pot: it should be a way for sick people to get a medicine that helps them. This brings us to problem #2.

2) This is a moral problem: people take advantage of 215, which is harming the rest of the country.  People who don't have a legitimate illness and hide behind medical cards make medical marijuana seem like a sham. People in other states point to California and say "there is no medical use, people are just trying to get an excuse to get high".

As a result, since many healthy people have cards, the idea that marijuana has medical use is less credible. Therefore, people find it more difficult to pass MMJ bills in other states, so there are states where people are suffering from illnesses in which marijuana can help, but can't smoke it.

Basically, if you are like most people and perfectly healthy, by getting a medical card you are taking advantage of a system to help sick people, and harming other sick people.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Green_T]
    #13288431 - 10/04/10 11:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've heard there are doctors that you can simply pay to give you a med card. Granted I'm not from California and don't know exactly how the system works (I'm sure someone from there can clarify for us), but from what I've heard it's very easy for just about anyone to get a med card. That being said, I definitely agree that a medical system should be for genuine medical needs, and not just a way for people to get high legally (besides, when so many people abuse the system for that purpose it's time to just legalize it already).

But basically my point was that it's relatively easy to get a med card, and between the med system, the recent decriminalization, and the upcoming bill in two years, California already has pretty loose pot laws compared to the rest of the US. And when you take the current Cali laws into consideration, plus all of Prop 19's restrictions, poor wording, and possible loopholes, and it seems to me that it's not that big of an improvement over the current situation from a practical point of view. (again I acknowledge that from an ideological/political standpoint getting it passed would be a pretty major thing within the legalization movement)

Either way, less than a month to go until the vote now. Should be interesting to see how this goes. And I hope all the supporters of Jack Herer's intiative will come out and start campaigning for it soon enough.

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13288768 - 10/04/10 12:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Morningrise, I think an important aspect you've missed is the fact that if this bill passes, no matter how restrictive it may seem, it will open up the door for all other 49 states to begin legalization.  That is the biggest oversight on this entire issue.  Yes the bill isn't perfect, I agree completely.  But if Cali legalizes, we will soon have legal weed in all other 49 states in a relatively short period of time.  THAT is why we need this to pass.  People will be more than happy to refine and tweak the finer details later, but we can't make ANY progress if this bill does not pass.


--------------------
:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: SuperD]
    #13288840 - 10/04/10 12:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
But if Cali legalizes, we will soon have legal weed in all other 49 states in a relatively short period of time.




maybe legal weed in all other 13 states that have decriminalized it already and perhaps a few more. i could be wrong, but there are some states that i can't see legalizing it for a very, very long time.

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: SuperD]
    #13289799 - 10/04/10 05:35 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SuperD said:
Morningrise, I think an important aspect you've missed is the fact that if this bill passes, no matter how restrictive it may seem, it will open up the door for all other 49 states to begin legalization.  That is the biggest oversight on this entire issue.  Yes the bill isn't perfect, I agree completely.  But if Cali legalizes, we will soon have legal weed in all other 49 states in a relatively short period of time.  THAT is why we need this to pass.  People will be more than happy to refine and tweak the finer details later, but we can't make ANY progress if this bill does not pass.



I'm not denying that it's an important bill for the legalization movement, quite the opposite, I recognize and accept the fact that passing it would be a major milestone. I'm not saying that we'd be better off if it didn't pass or anything like that. I'm just saying that it has a lot of glaring flaws, and I'm concerned by the fact that a lot of people either don't acknowledge them or don't seem to care, simply because this bill has the word "legalize" attached to it, and I'm concerned that if/when it passes a lot of people will think the battle's over and will accept it as being "good enough" for them, and won't bother to continue trying to improve pot laws.

I have no problem with Prop 19 as a starting point for legalization, and as I've said before I recognize that it's a necessary stepping stone toward better laws. But for me it's absolutely not good enough to be used to set the standard for long-term, widespread legalization. Of course we can't expect to go from 0 to 100 overnight, but at the same time we've made a LOT of progress over the years to get to where we are now, and we shouldn't sell ourselves short either.

To sum up my view on the matter:

I don't have a problem with Prop 19 passing, I'm simply concerned that too many people will overlook its significant downsides just because it has the word "legalize" in its title (or because they think it's good enough or that they can't do any better), and will allow it to become the standard for legalization bills in North America and perhaps even the rest of the world, when we can and should do much better in the long term.

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OfflineMickalopagus
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13291801 - 10/05/10 01:09 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Unfortunately this is not how legislation works. Laws evolve towards a 'better' system. Nothing starts perfect, and anything that is going to benefit the minority group of marijuana users and little else would not get passed from the get go. There would be no appeal to the majority who doesnt smoke, or care one way or the other about user rights.

If it doesnt pass this november I think itll go to the backburner for another few decades.


--------------------
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "

ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."

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