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InvisibleFleshCap
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees [Re: veggie]
    #13225981 - 09/21/10 08:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The bill may not pass, but no one can deny the progress we have made in the past 50 years. Marijuana is more socially accepted than it has ever been. The day will come... it may just be a while


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Melusina]
    #13226238 - 09/21/10 09:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Melusina said:
To my logic, if marijuana is legalized, mushrooms, of course, should be. Both are natural, non-addictive, all but impossible to overdose on, and threaten only minimal physiological danger (mainly to those with serious conditions to begin with). Sure, there is a greater amount of social stigma associated with shroomies, but marijuana has come a LOOOOONG way in the past 20 years or so in that department.

Then again, to my logic, both should already be legal, and so should every other drug, if caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, pharmaceuticals are legal. So my logic apparently is not worth very much.




I think even "unnatural" addictive drugs which are possible to overdose on should be legal.

I put "unnatural" in quotes, because that is quite arbitrary when it comes to safety etc. Did you know DMT was synthesized before people realized it could be found in nature? What if someone discovers a plant that contains a synthetic substance such as meth (such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_rigidula)? Would it suddenly be considered safe?

Banning any substance skirts around the major ethical question: When is it right for the government to ban someone from taking a drug?

On another note, I think mushrooms aren't going to be legal anytime soon, but eventually they will be moved down to schedule II due to research. The day all drugs will be legal is when the people realize that prohibition is never the better solution. Ideally, I would like to see the DEA still exist, but work in the same way as the BATF: prevent smuggling and counterfeits.

Please read the "legalize meth" link in my sig : http://www.strike-the-root.com/61/victor/victor1.html


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"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleMelusina
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Green_T]
    #13227245 - 09/21/10 02:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Green_T said:
Quote:

Melusina said:
To my logic, if marijuana is legalized, mushrooms, of course, should be. Both are natural, non-addictive, all but impossible to overdose on, and threaten only minimal physiological danger (mainly to those with serious conditions to begin with). Sure, there is a greater amount of social stigma associated with shroomies, but marijuana has come a LOOOOONG way in the past 20 years or so in that department.

Then again, to my logic, both should already be legal, and so should every other drug, if caffeine, alcohol, cigarettes, pharmaceuticals are legal. So my logic apparently is not worth very much.




I think even "unnatural" addictive drugs which are possible to overdose on should be legal.

I put "unnatural" in quotes, because that is quite arbitrary when it comes to safety etc. Did you know DMT was synthesized before people realized it could be found in nature? What if someone discovers a plant that contains a synthetic substance such as meth (such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acacia_rigidula)? Would it suddenly be considered safe?

Banning any substance skirts around the major ethical question: When is it right for the government to ban someone from taking a drug?

On another note, I think mushrooms aren't going to be legal anytime soon, but eventually they will be moved down to schedule II due to research. The day all drugs will be legal is when the people realize that prohibition is never the better solution. Ideally, I would like to see the DEA still exist, but work in the same way as the BATF: prevent smuggling and counterfeits.

Please read the "legalize meth" link in my sig : http://www.strike-the-root.com/61/victor/victor1.html




I agree with you completely...I believe it a human being's birthright to go wherever he or she wants to in his or her mind. Prohibition is a form of "thought police" type mind control.

I was just pointing out the parallels between the two...the arguments for legalization of pot are spot on with mushrooms. I should have added that, like marijuana, psilocybin has medical benefits as well, for instance as a treatment fro cluster headaches. The only reason pot is about to be legalized is that it's more popular, basically. In part because it is more recreational.

My point is that it's another self-contradicting facet of society. Either drugs are ok, or they aren't.

Every human society throughout history has used drugs. We evolved to use drugs. The hysterics over it are childish and ludicrous.

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InvisibleSuperD
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Melusina]
    #13227264 - 09/21/10 02:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Melusina said:
Every human society throughout history has used drugs. We evolved to use drugs. The hysterics over it are childish and ludicrous.




This right here is the bottom line.  There will never be such thing as a drug free society at least for the foreseeable future.  People love drugs.  They aren't going away anytime soon so get used to them.


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:super:D
Manoa said:
I need to stop spending all my money on plants and take up a cheaper hobby, like heroin. :lol:

Looking for Rauhocereus riosaniensis seeds or live specimen(s), :pm: me if you have any for trade

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Melusina]
    #13227441 - 09/21/10 03:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

the biggest difference between arguments for pot vs shrooms, other than stigma of course, is driving under the influence. it shouldn't ever happen, but it does already. driving on mushrooms is significantly worse than driving high, and imo more dangerous than even driving drunk. and a lot of people are going to correlate legal access with more common use, including use behind the wheel.

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Offlinewhatever123
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: psilyguy]
    #13229428 - 09/21/10 10:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

psilyguy said:
the biggest difference between arguments for pot vs shrooms, other than stigma of course, is driving under the influence. it shouldn't ever happen, but it does already. driving on mushrooms is significantly worse than driving high, and imo more dangerous than even driving drunk. and a lot of people are going to correlate legal access with more common use, including use behind the wheel.




The "driving under the influence" argument is horse shit, though. How many people would choose to driver on mushrooms because they were legal? Or, maybe a better way to think about it: how many of those people are not driving under the influence simply because the mushrooms they're on aren't legal?


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there should be a 3 month waiting period between registration and posting. :wink:

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: whatever123]
    #13229857 - 09/22/10 01:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

it is a horseshit argument, but a lot of people won't see it the way you just described. alot of people will see it as people that might drive while on mushrooms, but never take mushrooms cause they are illegal, are now going to drive while on mushrooms.

i'm on your side of the issue. i think all drugs should be legal actually. just saying with mushrooms the dui argument holds more weight than with pot, and people do try to make that argument against legal pot.

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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: psilyguy]
    #13229976 - 09/22/10 03:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^ It really sucks how the argument goes "if we legalize X, people will go to work and drive under the influence of X. Oh noes!" :rolleyes:

I can see melusina's point, how shrooms are very parallel to weed, and would be the next logical step to legalization. I think out of MDMA, opiates, cocaine, pcp, methamphetamine, LSD, and shrooms, legalization will go in this order:

MDMA = Shrooms >  LSD > Cocaine > Opiates > PCP (all)

I base this on the idea that the earlier ones are probably more acceptable to society (i.e. "soft" drugs). Keep in mind that the time scale will be on a long scale (think mayan long count!).

Alternatively, at some point the war on drugs will be considered a complete failure and blanket prohibition will be repealed.

I hope for a future where a framework exists for "open source" drug information (think erowid or wikipedia) so people can make educated choices about what to do with their mind and bodies. The DEA will still exist, but act to enforce quality and prosecute smugglers and counterfeiters.

HOWEVER: All this fantasy rests on prop 19 passing! I can see the prohibitionists fearing this about the "slippery slope" argument, but hey, is that necessarily a bad thing? I can imagine a racist in the 60's saying "if we let them swim in our pools, next thing you know they'll be allowed to marry our women!"


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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InvisibleveggieM

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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13248197 - 09/26/10 07:09 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I was asked to sticky this thread. This will be a good place to fine tune our Prop. 19 arguments/counter-arguments, and post links to any pro Prop.19 comments we have submitted to newspapers.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13264800 - 09/29/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The reason the media is almost unanimous and on the wrong side is because the media is controlled from the top and the big leaders are in cahoots with the booze and drug industries. They aren't saying what they honestly think, they are saying what they are told to think. Ignore the media!


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: veggie]
    #13284497 - 10/03/10 02:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've been jumping back and forth on the issue of Prop 19 for a while now, if I were eligible to vote for or against it at this point I have no idea which way I'd go. However, I can definitely say that the more I read about Prop 19, the less I like it. It's a flawed, poorly worded, and overly restrictive bill, and if it passes we definitely need to get Jack Herer's California Cannabis Hemp & Health Initiative (CCHHI) voted in in 2012 to replace it.

It bothers me to see so many pro-legalization people who don't acknowledge the downsides of Prop 19. It may be a necessary step in the legalization movement at this point, but overall it's not a very good bill, and more pro-legalization people need to see that.

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OfflineReposadoXochipilli
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Morningrise]
    #13284618 - 10/03/10 03:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

it makes it legal, how is it not a good bill? you can grow it, wtf man... how is it not good?


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OfflineReposadoXochipilli
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #13284627 - 10/03/10 03:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

also my favorite, the desert scum, err sun. it's bad for your hearts old people!


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InvisibleGreen_T
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: ReposadoXochipilli] * 1
    #13284700 - 10/03/10 03:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

CCHHI is a much better bill, but if 19 doesn't pass, then neither will CCHHI. Prop 19 isn't just about the effects; a "yes" vote is a "yes" for the concept of legalization - a way to say, "there needs to be a debate. The majority of the public doesn't want penalties for pot".

Prop 19 would remove criminal penalties for most people who smoke, which would be a BIG benefit.

The people who would not benefit from prop 19 are illegal drug dealers, and medicinal outlets that sell to people with sham illnesses. I think it would be extremely selfish for them to sabotage passing the prop so they can benefit over a system that fucks over so many people.

Sure, prop 19 isn't perfect, but it is a step that will lead to better things. It will be the biggest expansion of cannabis rights since the early 90's. Don't cast a "no" vote because you disagree with 1 minor detail.


--------------------

"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson

Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: Green_T]
    #13285092 - 10/03/10 04:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not voting one way or another (since I can't), in case that was directed specifically at me. And I do acknowledge that this may very well be a necessary stepping stone in the legalization movement.

But I just don't like how so many pro-legalization people won't acknowledge the downsides of it, and in fact attack anyone who doesn't fully support it as being a mindless prohibitionist, when in fact there are many pro-legalization activists who are against it for many valid reasons (not just a few minor details as I've heard many times). I'm glad that you, Green_T, realize how much better CCHHI is, but I'm worried that most people won't care anymore once Prop 19 passes.

To sum it up, I realise that this may be a stepping stone to proper legalization, and it's not that I'm specifically against it or anything, it's just that there are definite problems with it that more people need to see and acknowledge, and a far superior alternative coming up in just a couple years, which I truly hope will become the full focus of the legalization movement as soon as Prop 19's fate is decided.

Edited by Morningrise (10/03/10 04:26 PM)

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InvisibleveggieM

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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise] * 1
    #13285135 - 10/03/10 04:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It's very important that Prop. 19 passes.

Morningrise says that "It's a flawed, poorly worded, and overly restrictive bill". He doesn't give specifics but I have a good idea what he is referring to, and he is absolutely correct. But Prop. 19 was not written for the pro-legalization people, it is written for the anti marijuana crowd. It gives them a way to vote yes on a behavior of which they don't approve. It addresses their concerns. It is a compromise. If we are expecting a law to pass that is acceptable primarily to avid pot smokers, it's not going to happen.

Recreational cannabis enthusiasts may want to smoke throughout the day at work regardless of their profession, smoke while they are driving, not pay any taxes at all for buying and selling, want to grow an unlimited amount, want the smoking age 16 or less, etc. etc. The thing is, a law like that, an 'ideal' law, will not pass even in our grandkids lifetime. I guarantee you.

One could say the US Constitution is a poorly worded document. To this day people study it, interpret it, ponder what the writers actually meant, add and subtract amendments to it. It's a process. If the founding fathers waited for a perfectly worded document, we would still be part of the British Empire.

If we want a law more to our liking, Prop. 19 needs to be on the books first, in my opinion.

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Watching California's Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have [Re: ReposadoXochipilli]
    #13285141 - 10/03/10 04:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Knewnews said:
it makes it legal, how is it not a good bill? you can grow it, wtf man... how is it not good?



Limit of 25 square feet per residence (not per person), can't carry more than an ounce in public, there's a "recommended" $50 an ounce tax (which could in fact go higher than that), it's illegal to distribute to anyone without a ridiculously expensive commercial license (so it's still illegal to share your homegrown crop with anyone else, and it's still illegal to possess weed that wasn't obtained from a source allowed by the bill), it allows for taxes to go back into law enforcement, parts of the bill are much too vaguely/poorly worded (ie. illegal to smoke in the same "space" as a minor, with "space" being undefined so that the police can define it as anything they want), and many other things that I don't remember at the moment.

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OfflineMorningrise
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: veggie]
    #13285183 - 10/03/10 04:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

veggie said:
Morningrise says that "It's a flawed, poorly worded, and overly restrictive bill". He doesn't give specifics but I have a good idea what he is referring to, and he is absolutely correct. But Prop. 19 was not written for the pro-legalization people, it is written for the anti marijuana crowd. It gives them a way to vote yes on a behavior of which they don't approve. It addresses their concerns. It is a compromise. If we are expecting a law to pass that is acceptable primarily to avid pot smokers, it's not going to happen.



Yeah, this basically covers what bothers me about it, and what my point in my last couple posts was - the fact that it was primarily written for the anti-marijuana crowd and yet I see so many people who think the opposite, that it was written with their best interests in mind. I agree with you guys that Prop 19 most likely needs to pass before we can get anything better, but it just bothers me that so many pot smokers don't realise that it wasn't written with their interests in mind, and that we can (and should) do much better.

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Offlinepsilyguy
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13285414 - 10/03/10 05:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

i think most people do realize its a compromise and not the ideal law. it isn't close to perfect, but if i lived in california i would without a doubt vote yes. the proposition, imo, is better in every way then things are NOW. the world can't change over night, so any improvement is a great improvement.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Cali Newspapers Line Up Against Legalizing the Pot That 90% of Their Employees Have Smoked [Re: Morningrise]
    #13285676 - 10/03/10 06:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If it isn't a perfect improvement then lets keep it illegal forever. Does that make any sense? If people see that the world isn't going off the deep end after it's legalized, perhaps in another year or two that further bill or prop could be passed. You have to walk before you can run. Lets get walking.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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