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Invisibleglobos
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Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice?
    #13158431 - 09/07/10 05:29 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Here are the results of my 2010 early summer (june-july) sowing frenzy. The soil is a pure mineral mix (pumice, sand, etc.)  The seedlings live in a couple of electric propagators (not connected yet); here's one of the two.

The propagator (disconnected).


If high temperatures are needed (are they?), I will have to move both propagators during the winter, because there is no power socket around. It will be a much darker location; I hope it's OK?

So, what do I have growing? First, some mesembs.


#1. Delosperma cooperi, still quite thin and small. Is it normal for it to be so small after more than 2 months? The colour seems a bit too washed out too. No seedling has died yet, though.



#2. Sceletium tortuosum. I have 2 batches, coming from different sources, differing in age about 1 month. early June/early July. The first batch has been sown partially outside, in a pot, but that's another story (with pics). The first batch had relatively higher germination - still low, though - and 2-3 seedlings died. They haven't died out of lack of water, because air and soil are constantly wet in the propagator. The second batch produced ONE seedling only, which is doing apparently fine but is still quite small. How do I avoid losing them all?
Pictures: first batch, second batch, dead seedling from first batch.
   


#3. Some random Mammillaria (matudae maybe, says Cactusdan) grown from extremely fresh seed harvested by myself from a plant bought in full fruiting (story and pics here).
   


#4. Lophophora williamsii in two batches. The first batch (older by 6 weeks) was just labeled as L.Williamsii. I got decent germination and the plants look good, apart from a reddish hue on about half of them. The second batch of seeds were geographically labeled. They had better germination (around 70%) and grow faster. None show the red hue, but they are very elongated. Etiolating in their infancy or what? What's the deal?
Pictures: 4a. First batch
 

4b. Second batch
     


I have thousands of questions about all these plants, as I'm afraid to screw up especially during the winter, when there will be much less light. Should I move some seedlings out of the germinator? The Sceletium, for one, seems to be drowning/rotting. Should I provide light or dormancy? Is such high humidity still necessary with somewhat lower temperatures? Do these different species have significantly different requirements?

I'm not expecting an answer to each of these (and many more, uh!) questions, but at least some basic guidelines to help my babies survive until next year. Advise me if you have a clue!

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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice? [Re: globos]
    #13158494 - 09/07/10 06:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Some of my lophos have stretched more than others in identical growing conditions, koehresii have seemed more prone to this. Maybe try a small amount of more light each day but keep a very close eye on them.
I started to acclimate mine to lower humidity 4 months after germination, taking maybe a month to do so. They will get filtered light across the winter, perhaps a bit of direct sun early morning, some took it just fine last year. Temps, not sure.. mine just sit near the patio window, doesn't get too cold perhaps 60f at the lowest.

Here is some info on sceletium that may be of some help.


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Invisibleglobos
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Re: Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice? [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #13158543 - 09/07/10 06:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for the informative reply, Mostly_Harmless!

Lophos: "more light" as in removing the cloth from the top of the germinator? It will also let the air dry faster, which could be a good thing. I guess a few hours of sunlight filtered through window glass and germinator plastic won't be enough to burn the seedlings.

Sceletium: I'd read that up already, thanks, along with other reliable sites as well, but not all such sources always agree. I received slightly different advice on the forums here, from people who speak from personal experience and seem to know what they're talking about, so I guess some black (green?) magic is really required.

By the way, I also have a greenhouse (not warmed) that gets as much sunlight as the day provides. Would it be wise to move the lophs (or any other species) over there? I've got adult lophs growing there. I put them in a bit too hastily, and at first they got a little trouble with the full summer sun (max temp in greenhouse averaging 45C/113F), but they eventually got used to it.

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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice? [Re: globos]
    #13158557 - 09/07/10 07:09 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I wouldn't risk seedlings in something that can reach 45C, but in the winter it's min temps to be concerned about. What does it drop to? And how damp does it get? Last winter I would move my lophs to a warmer room over night after a water then back to the window the next morning, for a few days, as a precaution.
The direct light mine will get in the morning is for maybe only an hour, and then it will be filtered through some netting for the rest of the day. Do you have a cloth that would give just a bit less shade? I use net curtains, quite holey but does a good job.


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Invisibleglobos
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Re: Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice? [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #13158574 - 09/07/10 07:25 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Of course not in summer - not even early October, probably!

I was thinking about mid-to late Oct onwards, when the max temp inside the greenhouse will be definitely lower than 30, even at 2PM on a bright day (more like 25C). Minimum temp yearly could drop to maybe +3/+4 at its coldest (Jan/Feb). Usually +6/+8. Damp it's damp indeed - more so than in summer, if anything. The greenhouse takes care of direct water, but rain is common.

About light, the greenhouse is actually green, so the light that gets in, while plenty, isn't full spectrum white. Nonsucculents (hemp, Leonurus sibiricus etc.) really enjoyed it, but they're sturdy plants. So do some other, adult lophs.

A lighter cloth for the propagator: sure, I can find it.

Here are my worries in a nutshell. I'm wondering if/when I can/should get rid of the propagator's plastic cover altogether - depending on the species, which I still haven't any clear plan about yet. I'm afraid to drown/rot the poor suckers - especially the infant mesembs, since I'm still not able to "listen" to them. A similar problem might be ahead for infant (and older?) lophs: when the temperatures drop a bit, water is no good for adults. Same/different/more so for seedlings?

By the way, thanks for your patience and willingness to share.

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InvisibleMostly_HarmlessM
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Re: Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice? [Re: globos]
    #13158603 - 09/07/10 07:44 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I sowed mine in individual pots so each could be opened up at their own pace, but all species have adjusted over pretty much the same time scale.
The seedlings will be kept damp over winter but for the first couple of nights after a water I will keep in a warmer room to avoid the cold/damp issues. The duration between drying out and the next watering of the seedlings will slowly start to increase, perhaps a day or two at most over winter. I am now watering some 1yr old loph seedlings on the same schedule as older ones but only now they are reaching the end of their 2nd growing season. Seedlings can take more water than adults, but I don't think they take the cold as well, so if they are exposed to colder temps they will suffer doubly so due to the extra water. I wouldn't like my seedlings to be damp and in +3/+4 C temps.

Quote:

globos said: If high temperatures are needed (are they?), I will have to move both propagators during the winter, because there is no power socket around. It will be a much darker location; I hope it's OK?




How dark is much darker? Possible to run an extension cord?


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OfflinePDU
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Re: Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice? [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #13174648 - 09/10/10 10:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Here's what i did with my lophs:

I had a similar germination rate with my Loph seedlings, 50 per 3" cube. I would bottom water about 1x per month, and left them covered with ziplocks for 7 months immediately under a fluorescent light.

When i took them out of their humidity, they seemed stunted for at least months - but now, with only unfiltered indirect, natural light, they are growing like mad, some rivaling the size of my graft on pereskiopsis.


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Invisibleglobos
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Re: Succulents grown from seed - lophos, sceletium etc. Seedling advice? [Re: PDU]
    #13193721 - 09/14/10 10:43 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

... I was sure I'd replied to Mostly_Harmless, but I see the post didn't stick. Mysteries of the Internet. So, here goes.

1. Lophos

Quote:

Mostly_Harmless said:
The seedlings will be kept damp over winter but for the first couple of nights after a water I will keep in a warmer room to avoid the cold/damp issues. The duration between drying out and the next watering of the seedlings will slowly start to increase, perhaps a day or two at most over winter. I am now watering some 1yr old loph seedlings on the same schedule as older ones but only now they are reaching the end of their 2nd growing season. Seedlings can take more water than adults, but I don't think they take the cold as well, so if they are exposed to colder temps they will suffer doubly so due to the extra water. I wouldn't like my seedlings to be damp and in +3/+4 C temps.




I have some adult lophs living in this mini greenhouse. They've got a little sunburnt but survived the summer with little water (3 waterings if I remember correctly - about one good bottom watering monthly). Since our winter is rainy and damp but not really cold, I guess the adults should be OK if I withdraw water completely. My real doubt is about the seedlings. What I'd really like to is freeing up the propagators for sowing new stuff. As a second option, I could move the propagator inside the greenhouse, so humidity would be preserved (no electricity though, so temperatures in the +7/+10 range, with dips as low as +3/+4).

Quote:

Mostly_Harmless said:
Quote:

globos said: If high temperatures are needed (are they?), I will have to move both propagators during the winter, because there is no power socket around. It will be a much darker location; I hope it's OK?




How dark is much darker? Possible to run an extension cord?




Quite a bit darker. A couple of hours of diffused light (through propagator dome) as opposed to 5-6 hours of filtered light (through window, cloth and propagator dome).

Extension cord not practical unfortunately. I might simply stick the tray into a transparent plastic bag, if temperatures in the 12-18 C range are OK.

Quote:

PDU said:
I had a similar germination rate with my Loph seedlings, 50 per 3" cube. I would bottom water about 1x per month, and left them covered with ziplocks for 7 months immediately under a fluorescent light.

When i took them out of their humidity, they seemed stunted for at least months - but now, with only unfiltered indirect, natural light, they are growing like mad, some rivaling the size of my graft on pereskiopsis.




Nice! I could to the same to my lopho seedlings, minus the fluorescent light. It's dormancy time anyway... but wait a minute, do seedlings go dormant too?

2. Mesembs

I took the first Sceletium tortuosum batch (pictured above) out of the propagator for one night, fearing they'd rot like the ones before them. It was no success. The poor babies are seriously shriveled and they might not survive. I put them back and sprayed a lot. Keeping fingers crossed...

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