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Invisibleanonjon
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Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium?
    #13188533 - 09/13/10 09:05 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If I used a nitrogen supplement like seabird guano, and didn't break up the pellets, could the high nitrogen inhibit growth, similar to 'burning' plants with fertilizer?

The myc doesn't want to grow around the pellets, but it doesn't smell foul and otherwise looks very healthy.


Is it possible the thermophiles that survive pasteurization somehow enable the myc to colonize something like this? or do i simply have bacterial colonies that would have been prevented by the presence of the thermophiles? How could I tell if it's really infected apart from the smell (there isn't one)?


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Edited by anonjon (09/13/10 09:10 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: anonjon]
    #13188545 - 09/13/10 09:09 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

No, but fungi are decomposers, not plants.  If you 'feed' them something they don't have the enzymes to digest, they'll avoid it.  Disregard what you read about 'nitrogen' and fungi from the so-called 'experts'.  The researchers seem to have a botanical mentality and when they see good growth of fungi when adding a substrate rich in N, they attribute the growth to the nitrogen, and not what the mycelium is actually digesting.
RR


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13188549 - 09/13/10 09:11 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I thought you were the one who advocated small amounts of chicken manure for nitrogen?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: anonjon]
    #13188571 - 09/13/10 09:18 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

No, I advocate small amounts of chicken manure for good growth.  Damned if I know if it's the N or not.  I aren't no biologicist :shrug:

Something so-called western 'researchers' don't understand is that often the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.  I'm not saying the N doesn't play a part, but for western science to think there's just 1 thing contributing to increased growth is a fallacy.  There may be many things, each of which when isolated might not work alone.

Look at it like a military force.  It takes infantry, air support, cooks, medics, mechanics, etc.  One without the others is not going to win the war.  You can't isolate the one factor that wins a war.
RR


--------------------
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13188577 - 09/13/10 09:20 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

True. Hopefully the pasteurized ones come out better.


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: anonjon]
    #13189202 - 09/13/10 12:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hey,

Nitrogen is a limiting factor to high mushroom yields, but once sufficient N is provided more (ie excess) N might not be beneficial and could be a hindrance.  Mycelium of most edible fungi (and most microscopic fungi) can use protein as N, and other sources for N too like N ions as ammonicial N (ie ammonium; NH4).

I use a mushroom substrate nutrient product from Amcyel called "Pro Mycel Gold", it is supposed to be added to compost to increase N and other elements of the compost (I use it with horse poo and also coir).  Another product I plan to try when my Pro Mycel Gold runs out is "ChampFood".  The Champfood has vitamins (B-1 has been shown to be beneficial) along with elements which helps spawn run and mushrooms yields.  This is all well documented and studied and reported in academic journals. 

Adding those types of nutrients (Pro Mycel Gold or ChampFood) to bulk sub during spawn run and after spawn run (at casing; aka SAC) and after 2st flush harvest (called "double-cropping") is various routes of use.  For SAC and Double Cropping the sub gets broken up, nutrients are added, sub is pressed back together.  I use Pro Mycel Gold at spawn run (I mix it into my bulk before I mix spawn and bulk) and I may use it for double cropping as a test to see if it helps yields after 1st and 2nd flushes. 

I also wonder if breaking up sub after first flush will mean greater pin set for 2nd flush vs normal growing method where 2nd flush pin set is less than 1st flush pin set due to effect of harvesting 1st flush.

I use lower spawn to bulk ratio (1:6 to 1:10) than most shromery members, so my bulk sub as less grain and thus less nutrients, which is probably why I see benefit from using mushroom nutrients.

I also plan to add 50-100 ppm of manganese to my bulk sub because Mn has been shown to increase mushroom yield quite a bit, just like Ca.  A few studies found Mn offers benefits alone but also in synergy with other micro nutrients.  I also plan to test adding Mn to the water I use for re-hydrating the bulk after harvests. 

Mycelium can use ions for energy, but they do better with organic matter (which holds ions in the "soil solution" along with fiber, cellulose, protein, amino acids, etc, etc).

I have references for all this info your interested. Here are some references for now:

Manganese and other micronutrient additions to improve yield of Agaricus bisporus
David A. Weil, Robert B. Beelman and David M. Beyer
Bioresource Technology Volume 97, Issue 8, May 2006, Pages 1012-1017
(^^^ That is not hte only study finding yield increases from addition of Micromax slow release conventional (non-organic) plant fertilizer; of interest is MicroMax has pretty high Mg yet it doesn't hinder fungi, it helps mushroom yields).


A Report on recent work on mushrooms in Belgium 1995-1999

Peter Flegg
The International Society for Mushroom Science
(^^^ see these headings: Supplements; Supplement dose rate; Minerals, microelements and supplements)


Effect of Compost Supplementation (Soybean Meal and ChampFood) at Different Phases (Spawning and Before Casing) on Productivity of Agaricus blazei ss. Heinemann (A. brasiliensis)
J. Kopytowski Filho, M.T.A. Minhoni, M.C.N. Andrade and D. Zied
The International Society for Mushroom Science. Volume 17, Part 1, Article 22. 2008


Characteristic of Agaricus bisporus Italspawn 58 variety depending on basis components
Wozniak W., Gapinski M., Korzeniewska A., Muras U.
Zeszyty Problemowe Postepow Nauk Rolniczych. number: 485, ppg. 375-383. 2002


Supplementation of 2nd break mushroom compost with isoleucine, leucine, valine, phenylalanine, Fermenten® and SoyPlus®
Daniel J. Royse and J. E. Sanchez
World Journal of Microbiology and Biotechnology, 2008, Volume 24, Number 8, Pages 1333-1339


Effects of fragmentation, supplementation and the addition of phase II compost to 2nd break compost on mushroom (Agaricus bisporus) yield
Daniel J. Royse
Bioresource Technology Volume 101, Issue 1, January 2010, Pages 188-192


Double cropping Agaricus bisporus.(current research projects)
Daniel J. Royse

Mushroom News, May, 2009


Re-supplementing and re-casing mushroom ( Agaricus bisporus  ) compost for a second crop
Daniel J. Royse, Jose E. Sanchez, Robert B. Beelman and James Davidson
World Journal of Microbiology and Biotechnology, 2008, Volume 24, Number 8, Pages 1333-1339


Effects of spawn, supplement and phase II compost additions and time of re-casing second break compost on mushroom (Agaricus bisporus) yield and biological efficiency
Daniel J. Royse and William Chalupa
Bioresource TechnologyVolume 100, Issue 21, November 2009, Pages 5277-5282



Here is something I wrote on this topic last week:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13167278
Quote:


fwiw, many fungi can use ions (inorganic N) such as ammonium as food, that is their preferred form of ionic N vs nitrate N, and that is the form of N which is the majority in mushroom compost vs nitrate N (this is achieved using Ca rich compost ingredient like gypsum which locks ammonia as ammonium and increases flocculation compost particles; the Ca is what matters not the gypsum).  Fungi can use inorganic and organic N and AFAIK even DON (Dissolved Organic Nitrogen) like protein and amino acids for N.

Cubes can use inorganic N and AM fungi (endomycorrhizal fungi) do not trade inorganic N or organic N, they mineralize P and N and other elements from organic matter and give the ions to the roots in return for carbon from the roots provided by the plant via photosynthesis (around 25% of carbohydrates from photosynthesis become root exudes to feed and communicant with soil biota).

In terms of elements Mn has been shown to increase mushroom yield dramatically in many recent studies.  I plan to add 100 ppm of chelated Mn to my water I use to hydrate my bulk sub once I get my Mn order in.  There are other elements which have also been shown to increase growth and yield of mushrooms.  Some people say mushrooms aren't plants and elements don't matter, but they do, the elements are held in the "soil solution" of the bulk sub (the thin film of water surrounding all particles in bulk sub, soil, soilless media, etc) and in the CEC sites too (if the ion is a cation, which is the case with Mn).  The cations held in the soil solution are in equilibrium to cations held in CEC sites of media (for plants) or bulk sub (for mushrooms); and the CEC of coir is ~60-80 meq/liter.  For reference CEC of soil is ~5-10 meq/liter and CEC of peat is ~80-100 meq/liter.  Thus when the mycelium mineralizes the bulk sub (digests bulk sub) the mycelium takes in the elements added to bulk sub via hydration water.

And lastly, when P anions are ~30 ppm (and greater) Am fungi (of Glomus genus) are greatly inhibited, sporulation stops as does further infection of host roots.


...and...

Most saprobe fungi use ammonium as the preferred ionic N source if using ionic N (ex., the NH4 cations found in mushroom compost); and some fungi convert ammonia to ammonium at which point many bacteria convert ammonium (and ammonia) to nitrates via nitrification.  The microbial (often fungal) process of converting ammonia to ammonium is called ammonification.

The process of multi-phase mushroom compost production and the feedstocks and amendments (like gypsum) used for mushroom compost induces higher levels of NH4 than is found in traditional compost as used for plants and soils (which has low NH3, NH4 and higher NO3).  This is because saprobe fungi, like those grown for human consumption on mushroom compost, and P.cubensis (AFAIK) do better with NH4 than NH3 or with NO3.

I agree most saprobe fungi are not great at processing nitrites and nitrates, but they are better at processing and using ammonicial nitrogen such as NH4 as food.

I also agree saprobe fungi do best when solublizing (mineralization of) organic matter for nitrogen; but they also use cation N just fine (ions are naturally found bulk subs like coir, h.manure, compost, etc).  This is the mirror image opposite of plants which do best with ionic elements but they also do just fine taking in dissolved organic nitrogen (ex., 15N) like some protein and glycine, etc.

AM fungi (ectomycorrhizal fungi type; Glomus genus) uses carbohydrates from the roots as food, not amino acids for N AFAIK.  AM fungi use a process of minerilzation of organic matter (like other fungi) and take in elements and organic substances after mineralization of the organic matter.  After that the AM fungi provides N and P to the plant, along with PGRs and other organic substances.








Here is the profile of Pro Mycel Gold and PG Natural the difference between the two is PG Natural has no formaldehyde which is meant to reduce chance of contams.  Both products use denatured protein, but Pro Mycel Gold uses formaldehyde and PG Natural uses heat.  I Pro Mycel Gold at 4% by dry sub weight.

Fiber = 7%
Fat = 5%
Protein = 54%
N = 6.6%
P = 2%
Ca = 1.7%
Mg = ~2 mg/kg^-1


--------------------
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"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/13/10 04:35 PM)

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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13189248 - 09/13/10 12:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:

Look at it like a military force.  It takes infantry, air support, cooks, medics, mechanics, etc.  One without the others is not going to win the war.  You can't isolate the one factor that wins a war.
RR




Nor is it fallacious arguments that win wars :wink: (that's not meant to be rude at all, just pointing out your analogy isn't a sound argument for the topic of N and mushroom yield and mycelium growth).


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/13/10 12:54 PM)

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InvisiblePinback
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: pinophile]
    #13189500 - 09/13/10 01:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Good post, thanks for the references. I actually read about manganese somewhere else (here) but did not dig deeper into it.

I'm wondering what you mean by "mycelium can use ions for energy ...".

I did a very sloppy experiment where I added urea to straw. It inhibited growth (visually), even at low concentrations.

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: Pinback]
    #13189746 - 09/13/10 02:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Excuse me for being incredulous about the two products you mention, but does it perhaps include any purple reptile sand?

For any noobs reading this, don't go out and buy any bulk substrate supplement snake oil. It's a waste of money. 29 posts so it's probably that same guy who comes around occasionally trying to hawk bogus products and raving about SACING and CACING and wutnot.


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: Pinback]
    #13189872 - 09/13/10 03:11 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
Good post, thanks for the references. I actually read about manganese somewhere else (here) but did not dig deeper into it.

I'm wondering what you mean by "mycelium can use ions for energy ...".

I did a very sloppy experiment where I added urea to straw. It inhibited growth (visually), even at low concentrations.




Yea that pdf and website are good for sure.  what I mean is ammonicial N can be used by many fungi often as ammonium (NH4).  That is why urea is added to mushroom compost at the start of the process, it is converted into usable forms of N by microbes during composting process which makes higher N levels vs not adding urea; the addition of urea and methods of making mushroom specific compost means higher levels of ammonium (NH4) in compost when the compost is ready for use (either as Phase II or Phase III or mature, older compost).

I don't know of fungi like the kinds we grow (edible) that do well on urea.

To my understanding fungi are not good at using nitrates, many are good however at using ammonium, even though it's not nearly as good as organic matter sources of N liked I wrote about above.  However, it's important to note that mushroom compost, horse manure, cow manure, etc, has ions present in the soil solution of the substrate; this means the myclieum is in contact with the ions.  Ions are found naturally in all soils, manures, etc; mycelium has evolved in the presence of ions so it's makes sense (to me t least) why fungi can use ammonium. 

Fungal dominant soils (ex older forest soils) generally have large NH4 pools and higher NH4 levels than NO3 (nitrate) levels.  Bacterial dominant soils (ex grassland soils) generally have greater NO3 than NH4 levels. 

Bacteria are the major players in nitrification and fungi are the major players in ammonification AFAIU.

I am not trying to claim fungi prefer ions for N, that's not the case, but they can use it for N source (which is what I meant by "energy").


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/13/10 03:57 PM)

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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: anonjon]
    #13189943 - 09/13/10 03:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
Excuse me for being incredulous about the two products you mention, but does it perhaps include any purple reptile sand?




You are excused.  I'm not sure why you are incredulous, you make no statements why what I wrote is incorrect.  A few of the first references I posted has info on ChampFoods and if you do a search here for "spawnmate" you will get more info.  Pro Mycel Gold is spawnmate on steroids and Champfood "S" is supposed to be better than Pro Mycel Gold.  The same company that makes spawnmate also makes Pro Mycel Gold.

There are many peer-reviewed published studies on the efficacy of mushroom substrate supplementation with various items like soy protein powder (which works), soy meal, cottonseed meal, spawnmate, champfoods, linoleic and oleic acid (from veg oil**), etc, etc.

Agar was all over this topic years ago here at shroomery, he is how I learned about spawnmate and veg oil (while lurking here); I went from there and found the info (over the past years) I posted here.  What I am writing in terms of supplements rich in protein (N) is nothing new, it has been talked about here at the shroomery for years.

** fwiw, 10 ml per pound of moist sub using veg oil high in linoleic acid and oleic acid can increase yield and provide faster spawn run.  I have tested this myself with cubensis and found it does offer befits; i used too much before and it ruined the grow (i think the sub got too hot).  Corn oil ftw: linoleic acid = 53.52% and oleic acid = 27.36%.  Crude cottonseed oil is probably the best tested and it has 51.5% linoleic acid and 17% oleic acid.


Quote:

anonjon said:
For any noobs reading this, don't go out and buy any bulk substrate supplement snake oil. It's a waste of money. 29 posts so it's probably that same guy who comes around occasionally trying to hawk bogus products and raving about SACING and CACING and wutnot.




lolz; i don't even know what to type in response, so instead...<pinophile face palms himself>

Snake oil eh?  I guess that's why many in the mushroom growing industry (in the US and abroad; 1st world nations) use those products?  And why more than a few peer-reviewed published studies find increased yield and other benefits from using these supplements often with real-deal mushroom compost over the past 20 years?

fwiw, i have never used SAC and CAC would be silly for cubensis growers I would think.  I have though about using SAC with the SAC specific nutrient from ChampFood, they offers different nutrients for supplement at spawning or supplement at casing. 

I bet testing the Champfood nutrients made for SAC with double-cropping might be a good idea.  I have yet to try double-cropping, AFAIK it's a pretty new technique to be studied; I plan to try it after the 2nt flush with Champfoods sac product.  Considering after the 2nd flush yields can go down for cubensis, I think trying a double-crop method might be worthwhile.  The only problem I see is contamination and metabolites.  Adding some agricultural lime or oyster shell flour (for pH of sub which is lowered by metabolites) along with mushroom nutrients that inhibit contamination might be good.  I think double-cropping after the 2nd flush, before the substrate is much reduced in size, might get extra/increased yield from a single colonized substrate block.  Thanks for the thought! :smile:


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/13/10 04:45 PM)

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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: Pinback]
    #13190270 - 09/13/10 04:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

anonjon

i forgot to write that I found some shoomery people who have posted about pg natural in the past, that is how I found about PG Natural by lurking, just like how I found info on spawnmate and veg oil, by lurking.


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/13/10 04:40 PM)

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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: Pinback]
    #13190287 - 09/13/10 04:35 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
Good post, thanks for the references. I actually read about manganese somewhere else (here) but did not dig deeper into it.






Here is more info about MicroMax, which is the source of Mn and other micro nutrients used in some studies. 

Below in reference to chicken manure I am pretty positive they are referring to chicken manure based mushroom compost.  The main ingredients in mushroom compost are generally gypsum (for Ca to keep smell down by binding ammonia as ammonium and to increase flocculation of compost), horse manure and/or chicken manure (for ammonia and ammonicial sources of N to increase NH4 in the final compost), straw and urea.

A Report on recent work on mushrooms in Belgium 1995-1999
Peter Flegg
The International Society for Mushroom Science

Quote:

Minerals, microelements and supplements
Earlier tests showed that little or no further benefit in yield was gained by increasing the supplement dose rate from 1.4 to 1.8 kg/m2. A series of 5 trials was conducted to find out if adding a mixture of minerals and microelements had any effect. A commercial product, Micromax, was used. Although the addition of both supplements and the mineral mix separately resulted in increased yields, there was no interaction. Adding the mineral/microelement mix at a higher dose rate did not give a further significant increase in yield and the effects on crop yield of the mix are reported to be irregular. Adding the mineral mix did not improve the performance of the higher level (1.8 kg/m2) of supplements. Further trials with Micromax alone confirmed its beneficial effects on yield but the results were irregular. The possibility that this relates to variations in the composition of the poultry manure used to prepare the substrate has yet to be confirmed. Chemical anlayses indicated that it may not always be true to think that poultry manure always contains enough minerals and microelements to guarantee maximum yields.




--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/13/10 04:44 PM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: pinophile]
    #13190339 - 09/13/10 04:45 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Snake oil eh?  I guess that's why many in the mushroom growing industry (in the US and abroad; 1st world nations) use those products?  And why more than a few peer-reviewed published studies find increased yield and other benefits from using these supplements often with real-deal mushroom compost over the past 20 years?




Source?

I'm just curious.  I have a commercial mushroom farm and have never heard of these, other than spawnmate of course.  I've also done many experiments with vegetable oil and not found any benefit for the species I grow, and certainly none from urea or ammonia.

I've broken apart many straw and sawdust based substrates from dozens of species after flushing, to use in our organic garden as soil conditioner.  I've never noticed any of them trying to re-knit back together even when the pieces are touching.  I can't imagine increased yield in less time from breaking apart a myceliated substrate that has gone into fruiting mode.  What species are they doing this with if other than button mushrooms?  Also, please fill us in on exactly what are "mushroom nutrients that inhibit contamination"?  I'm not arguing, just interested.
RR


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13190635 - 09/13/10 05:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Is it as good as fast blast? :stirthepot:


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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13190673 - 09/13/10 05:47 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

Snake oil eh?  I guess that's why many in the mushroom growing industry (in the US and abroad; 1st world nations) use those products?  And why more than a few peer-reviewed published studies find increased yield and other benefits from using these supplements often with real-deal mushroom compost over the past 20 years?




Source?




For the claim about many growers the mushroom industry using those products?  I posted sources for the other part about studies using those products and similar products. If for my claim about many commercial growers using supplements I listed, I can get you some articles on the topic but they are from industry journals, not legit source for unbiased info.  I have spoken with both company (Amycel is US based and ChampFoods is based in Europe) about their products and commercial usage, etc.  And they have distributors in many continents and many countries.  I have no hard unbiased sources for you, only what I know of the industry (which is mush less than you I know).  Some big commercial mushroom growers like for supermarkets use compost/substrate supplements AFAIU. 


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I'm just curious.  I have a commercial mushroom farm and have never heard of these, other than spawnmate of course.  I've also done many experiments with vegetable oil and not found any benefit for the species I grow, and certainly none from urea or ammonia.




I read your mushroom cave thread, I'm jealous, its super impressive.  fwiw I have found increased yield and decreased colonization time for cubes using flax seed oil and corn oil on a clone that i made sure was an isolate; YMMV i guess and especially dependent upon what is being grown and what the substrate is comprised of.

I agree using ammonia (NH3) would not be good, urea is ok for some species, but using ammonium (NH4) is a different story; most species use it for N just fine.  I for one don't think giving extra ammonium (ex as ammonium sulfate) would be beneficial vs adding extra N rich organic matter cubes can solublize for N.  I was only mention how fungi can use some cation N sources; i don't think it's beneficial to do so however in any but the most obscure situations.

Mushroom compost is made with the feedstocks I listed above** and a few conventional fertilizer inputs I forgot to list.  Oftentimes ammonium sulfate and super phosphate are added to the compost pile to increase the final N (ammonium) and P levels in the compost.

** other feedstocks and inputs often used to make mushroom compost are gypsum (for Ca to keep smell down by binding ammonia as ammonium and to increase flocculation of compost), horse manure and/or chicken manure (for ammonia and ammonicial sources of N to increase NH4 in the final compost), straw and urea.

AFAIK fungi can use ammonium sulfate (ammonium + sulfate) and urea as N, also they can DON (Dissolved Organic Nitrogen; ex some proteins and amino acids) as N and and organic matter for N; and as you have written before, mushrooms are benefited by sulfate from gypsum.  Thus ammonium sulfate should be a good source of N to test mixed into agar and watch mycel growth vs agar with organic sources of N (like proteins, etc) vs agar with both ammonium sulfate and organic sources of N.  You should test it out! :smile:


Some references:

Mineral supplementation and productivity of the Shiitake mushroom on eucalyptus logs
Elvio Cardoso Queiroz, Regina Helena Marino, Augusto Ferreira da Eira
Sci. agric. (Piracicaba, Braz.) vol.61 no.3 ppg. 260-265 May/June 2004
(full PDF) http://www.scielo.br/pdf/sa/v61n3/a03v61n3.pdf

Quote:

ABSTRACT

Brazilian reports on Shiitake mushroom [Lentinula edodes (Berkeley) Pegler] productivity grown on Eucalyptus saligna (Sm.) logs are optimistic. The current production on this kind of wood is, however, low and variable. Aiming at increasing Shiitake mushroom productivity, the present work studied interactions among three concentrations of mineral supplement and three Shiitake strains (Le 95/01, 96/17 and 96/18) grown on seventh cut eucalyptus logs. Mineral fertilization was carried out when the logs were submerged in water to induce fruiting bodies, using the following saline concentrations: zero (no fertilizers added), 0.05% (equivalent to 0.35 g L-1 of ammonium sulfate with 18% nitrogen and 0.15 g L-1 of superphosphate with 34% phosphorus) and 0.50%. Fertilization of the Le 95/01 strain increased productivity, but logs inoculated with the Le 96/17 strain were more productive only at 0.05% concentration while in the Le 96/18 strain, mineral supplementation decreased in productivity. The radial growth of these Shiitake strains (in sawdust-agar medium and with the same saline concentrations used in the log experiment) showed that all strains reacted positively to fertilization and that positive results for the Le 95/01 strain and negative results for Le 96/18 on eucalyptus logs are due to the natural higher competitiveness of the first Le 95/01 in relation to the latter Le 96/18 strain. Mineral fertilization increases the productivity provided that the logs are well colonized by Shiitake mushrooms.




(^^^ the ppm used above that offered the most consistent befits was 0.05% of ammonium sulfate which comes to 350 ppm (0.35 g/L > 350 mg/L > 1 mg/L = 1 ppm) of ammonium sulfate with 18% nitrogen (which is about 63 ppm N if my math is correct)).



Nitrogen nutrition of agaricus bisporus: II urea as the nitrogen source of agarcius bisporus
H.T. Hus and K.J. Hu
Reserach suppored in part by Grant 55/56-MRF-CM-1, JCRR
(full PFD) http://www.tari.gov.tw/taric/uploads/journal_arc_16-3-4.pdf



Submerged cultures of mushroom mycelium as sources of protein and flavour compounds: Chap 2: The nutritional requirements of Agaricus bisporus and Coprinus comatus
Frans Dijkstra
Dissertation (proefschrift), Delft, 1976
(full text doc format) http://www.fransdijkstra.nl/diss/diss.doc
(full text html format) http://www.fransdijkstra.nl/prfschr.htm



Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
I've broken apart many straw and sawdust based substrates from dozens of species after flushing, to use in our organic garden as soil conditioner.  I've never noticed any of them trying to re-knit back together even when the pieces are touching.




I wonder if you added new food (like ChampFood SAC supplement) they would knit back together?  I think maybe yes if the fungi isn't old and tired. 


Quote:

RogerRabbit said:I can't imagine increased yield in less time from breaking apart a myceliated substrate that has gone into fruiting mode.  What species are they doing this with if other than button mushrooms?




Many species, but they do it once the best harvesting flushes are over, they do it past 2nd flush harvest AFAIU; so buy the third flush (ie 1st flush of double-cropped sub) the sub has lots of nutrients again.  It could be better yield (and BE) for three reasons: 1) latter flushes with more weight; 2) re-use of sub for longer time which means fewer spawning times to new bulk sub which could more harvests per-month; and 3) I wonder if pin set of 1st flush double-cropped sub would be better than pin set on 2nd flush single-cropped sub.

I realize you are much more of an authority on growing various mushroom species and as a commercial grower than I.

Quote:

Also, please fill us in on exactly what are "mushroom nutrients that inhibit contamination"?  I'm not arguing, just interested.
RR




Humm, that does sound off reading only that part of the sentence.  In the whole sentence I was trying to state (and could have failed) that the by denaturing the protein with formaldehyde Pro Mycel Gold hinders contamination; the protein isn't readily available for tirch to use as food.  That is why I use it and not coffee in my bulk subs, that and these processional mushroom nutrients seem to give me better yield with less chance of contamination vs coffee grinds.  However, I do find coffee grinds helps yields and adding diluted coffee during soak seems to help grain colonization too; I'm not trying to knock coffee additives.

One product from Amcyel is treated with a fugicide for grow areas with trich problems.


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/13/10 06:41 PM)

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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: anonjon]
    #13190710 - 09/13/10 05:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
Is it as good as fast blast? :stirthepot:




What is fast blast?


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: pinophile]
    #13190794 - 09/13/10 06:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you all for this really nice thread, (applause)


--------------------
Mycoelf

Sterility is a process that can be likened unto infinity, which is a long walk, the closer to the end you start before beginning, the more achievable  the goal of infinity becomes.  Remember, cleanliness in next to goddessness

:aliendance::aliendance::wicca::aliendance::aliendance::pipesmoke:

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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: mycoelf]
    #13190872 - 09/13/10 06:29 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

For those who haven't heard about the supplements I am writing about, those that offer high % protein (and thus lots of N) and other macro and micro nutrients and lipids here are the sources:

Amyel/Spawnmate:

Below is their website their PDF which shows all their supplements and all the strains they bred and sell.  This is the same company I wrote about in the UV thread that has been irradiating mushrooms for a while now with UV-b to increase vit D content of mushrooms.  They are very big in the mushroom industry AFAIK.  The PG Natural is natural, not organic and has animal proteins in it.  A 50 lb bag of Pro Mycel Gold is only $30.  Amycel/Spawnmate offers supplements for various applications and growing environments and species of fungi.

website: http://www.amycel.com/

product catalog full pdf of supplements and strians: http://www.amycel.com/SupplementsStrains.pdf



ChampFoods:

They seem to be the preferred source, but I'm not sure about that.  They offer "organic" supplements but I'm not sure how they define it, i don't think it's NOP or OMRI certified.  They have various products, "S" should be used at spawning and "C" should be used at casing (or double-cropping I guess).  I think this product, the "S", is similar to PG Natural but the "S" has vitamins too.

website for products: http://www.champfood.com/eng/products.htm


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

Edited by pinophile (09/19/10 09:16 PM)

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Re: Does excess nitrogen 'burn' mycelium? [Re: Pinback]
    #13191091 - 09/13/10 07:17 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Pinback said:
Good post, thanks for the references. I actually read about manganese somewhere else (here) but did not dig deeper into it.





Hey neat,

check out the author of that pdf you posted, Daniel J. Royse, the same guy from the final 5 references i posted above about supplement additive and double-cropping.  That's very cool he gets published so often and also at Penn State, mushroom mecca; and that he did a few experiments using similar growing methods so they are kind of replicated.  That makes me trust all that info a bit more.


--------------------
What does a ninja drink?  WHA-TAH!

"The important thing is not to stop questioning..." Albert Einstein

"What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal"  Albert Pike

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