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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Bush asks - "What protests?"
    #1316991 - 02/18/03 03:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

WASHINGTON - Declaring that America's security should not be dictated by protesters, President Bush said Tuesday he would not be swayed from disarming Iraq. U.S. and British diplomats weighed another bid for U.N. backing.

"War is my last choice," Bush said at the White House as echoes of anti-war protests circled the globe. "But the risk of doing nothing is even a worse option as far as I am concerned."

Standing firmly against skeptical allies as well as the demonstrators, Bush said: I owe it to the American people to secure this country. I will do so."

He said of Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, "We will deal with him."

Administration officials in Washington and at the United Nations in New York were discussing the possible gains as well as the risk of a diplomatic defeat if the United States proposed a new resolution to the Security Council to endorse force as an option to disarm Iraq.

One U.S. official said Tuesday there was no decision on a text or even on whether to go ahead, though White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said, "I think it will be a simple and rather straightforward resolution."

Bush said a second resolution "would be useful," although "we don't need a second resolution. It's clear this guy could even care less about the first resolution. He's in total defiance."

France, with support from Russia and China, does not accept the U.S. view that the Security Council effectively endorsed force as an option to disarm Iraq in an earlier resolution that warned of "serious consequences" if Saddam persisted in defying U.N. demands.

With some 50 countries lined up to speak to the council in a session that could go over until Wednesday, early action by the United States and its close ally, Britain, was not expected.

Diplomats at the U.N. said a draft resolution could be circulated late Wednesday.

As for the protests around the world by millions of people opposed to war with Iraq, Bush said they were irrelevant to his duty to protect America.

"Size of protest, it's like deciding, 'Well I'm going to decide policy based up on a focus group.' The role of a leader is to decide policy based upon the security - in this case - security of the people," he said.

"Democracy is a beautiful thing, and that people are allowed to express their opinion," he said.

"Some in the world don't view Saddam Hussein as a risk to peace," he added. "I respectfully disagree."

Last Friday, an overwhelming majority of the 15 council members followed France's lead and called for extending U.N. weapons searches in Iraq. Secretary of State Colin Powell's argument that the searches were virtually useless was overridden.

On Tuesday, however, the Bush administration drew some support in Europe.

Thirteen incoming members of the European Union endorsed a joint declaration in Brussels, Belgium, that warned Saddam he had one last chance to disarm.

French President Jacques Chirac scoffed that the 13 had "missed a good opportunity to keep quiet,"

In a parallel action backing the United States, 10 former communist countries, seven of them EU candidates, reiterated their support for Washington's position on Saddam.

At the White House, Bush gave no ground.

"Hopefully, Saddam Hussein will disarm," he said. "If he chooses not to disarm, as I have been saying for a long time, we will lead a coalition of the willing to disarm him."

But one valued ally, Turkey, hesitated to permit thousands of U.S. soldiers on its soil.

"We are not going to the parliament tomorrow," Prime Minister Abdullah Gul said Monday, backing away from a pledge for a vote Tuesday. "We have some concerns on economic and political issues."

Turkey has been negotiating with the Bush administration for a large assistance package. Bush said Turkey had "no better friend than the American government" and he was confident details could be worked out.

Next weekend, Bush will meet at his ranch in Texas with a European supporter, Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar of Spain. Another, Prime Minister Tony Blair of Britain is under enormous pressure to back away from conflict with Iraq.

Bush said, "Tony Blair understands that Saddam Hussein is a risk. Tony Blair sees that a weakened United Nations is not good for world peace. And he is a courageous leader. And I'm proud to call him friend."

Praising Aznar as courageous, as well, Bush said, "These are men of vision. They see the task at hand. And I'm proud to call them allies. And we'll work together for the sake of peace."

Copyright 2002 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.


My comments: Apparently Bush aknowledges in this article that this country is no longer for the people.  It's either his way or no way.  I thought that 10 million people around the world may have made a dent in Bush's Iraq policy.  I was wrong.  This article, as do many others, continue to make me feel utterly hopeless in trying to be involved in anything the least bit "political".  We need more action.  If anyone else feels like getting involved, I've listed some excellent links below (some are drug war links  :wink: ).

ACLU - http://www.aclu.org/
United for Peace - http://www.unitedforpeace.org
International Answer - http://www.internationalanswer.org
Drug Reform Coordination - http://www.drcnet.org
NORML - http://www.norml.org

 


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1316999 - 02/18/03 03:09 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

People protest racial integration, should we listen to all protestors or just the ones with whom you agree?


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1317007 - 02/18/03 03:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

People protest racial integration, should we listen to all protestors or just the ones with whom you agree?



To this extent? A world-wide demonstration? I would hope that a half a million people in New York would be at least enough to make Bush look over his plans once more....


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317032 - 02/18/03 03:20 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

A protest is a protest, nothing more. It is not an election, a recall, or even a poll. It's more of a social gathering than anything else.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1317034 - 02/18/03 03:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

yes... the last time there were 10 million racists protesting in the streets was.... hmm....


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1317052 - 02/18/03 03:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I am talking about sheer size here StonedFish. Isn't the government supposed to go as "far" as to take the citizens' concerns into consideration? If protests are rendered useless, then how do the people speak out in a country that is becoming more and more oppressed everyday?

What happened to for the people, by the people?

About this whole racial integration thing: If this became a big issue, I can assure you that there would be tens of millions of more people protesting the protesters. If we want to be a democracy, we need to take more steps to actually achieve that goal.


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317103 - 02/18/03 03:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Isn't the government supposed to go as "far" as to take the citizens' concerns into consideration?


I agree, I think the really disappointing thing is not so much that the governments around the world aren't listening to protesters. The disappointing thing is that they are completely dismissing the concerns of the protesters. I personally would feel a whole lot better if someone like Bush came out and said to the people protesting "Hey, I can see your concerned, I hear what your saying but this is why we have to do it." Giving a reason would be nice, so would acknowledgement. People who attend protests are just going to a "social gathering" and they don't expect for the world to change just for them, but they would at least like to feel as if someone higher up was listening and thinking "Gee, a lot of people out there think that we shouldn't do this, I wonder why."


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317111 - 02/18/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I see what you're saying, but if people want to be heard, they should vote people like Bush out of office. The fact that the majority of the United States supports Bush is enough to make me question just who the protestors stand for.

I agree that protests are good for democracy. If nothing else, they serve to show that not everyone thinks the same way, and that many countries allow such freedom even when it directly challenges the government.


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Invisibleadrug

Registered: 02/04/03
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317115 - 02/18/03 03:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

He really is a first class jackass.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317159 - 02/18/03 04:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"War is my last choice," Bush said at the White House as echoes of anti-war protests circled the globe. "But the risk of doing nothing is even a worse option as far as I am concerned."





If Bush would rather go to war than do nothing, then war isnt his last choice.
I don't get his logic.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: pattern]
    #1317170 - 02/18/03 04:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If Bush would rather go to war than do nothing, then war isnt his last choice.
I don't get his logic.



What logic?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317173 - 02/18/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)


"Democracy is a beautiful thing, and that people are allowed to express their opinion," he said.



Yeah, but is it democracy when the opinions are completely ignored and shrugged off because Bush had his mind made up already?


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: silversoul7]
    #1317177 - 02/18/03 04:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

> What logic?

hehe


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Invisibleadrug

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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: pattern]
    #1317179 - 02/18/03 04:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That's just it. He's incapable of logic. Over the next two years, things are just going to get stupider and stupider. I don't believe the press when they say Bush has such a high approval rating. Or maybe I just don't want to believe that so many of my fellow Americans could actually approve of the job he is doing.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317214 - 02/18/03 04:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I read the article twice, then did a search of the page. The only place I could find the words "what protest" is in the subject of the thread.

Did he say it somewhere else and you posted the wrong article? Or did you fabricate that phrase?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1317371 - 02/18/03 05:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, but, in the first line of the article it pretty much sums that up... well, sort of.

Its pretty crazy about the world-wide protests against war, and he really doesnt even care. :frown:



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: angryshroom]
    #1317564 - 02/18/03 07:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Why would he care? Bush isn't interested in democracy, he and his government a simply a front for large corporations. Whatever his masters tell him is what he'll do.


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1317759 - 02/18/03 09:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The only place I could find the words "what protest" is in the subject of the thread.
 



Sorry for any misunderstandings, but I thought it was pretty clear that I was being sarcastic in the subject thread  :crazy:  Well, anyway, no, he did not say those exact words, but that is exactly what I felt he summed up after reading the article. 


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317916 - 02/18/03 11:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, he didn't even imply "what protests". The thrust of the article was "who cares about" the protests.

And really, with less than 1 percent of the worlds people protesting... why should he?

Let's look at the NYC protest for example. Even if we go with the reported figure of 500K, which I doubt since orginizers are well known for graphically exagerating the attendence figures, and even if we assume that all the protesters were from NYC, which going by the proximity of both NJ and CT is VERY unlikely, that would be what, about 6 or 7%? Now while that is a sizeable percentage, that leaves 93% which either doesn't care enough or thinks a war is the right thing. The latter is backed up in part by the polls. Far more agree with Bushes stance than disagree.

Now, I hope we don't go to war. I believe that Saddam has the weapons, and I believe he will use them. I hope Saddam backs down. Having said that, I do believe that sometimes it's the last option. Are we there quite yet? I don't think so, but I recognize the fact that there's a bunch of info we as a people, don't know. And also, if a President was to go by the polls, he'd get nothing done.

Now, back to my original post in this thread. Using something that wasn't even said detracts from the point you were trying to make. I notice a few people on this board do that. Everyone thinks so, anyone who doesn't think so, every court decision, and phrases like that leave a bad taste in my mouth and make it hard to take seriously whatever point is trying to be made.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleClosetCase
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1317927 - 02/18/03 11:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"War is my last choice," Bush said at the White House as echoes of anti-war protests circled the globe. "But the risk of doing nothing is even a worse option as far as I am concerned."





So actually doing nothing (no war) is your last option! ...which makes war what option again??? (second I guess, after the option of saddam handing everything over and ending his own life)


--------------------
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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1317988 - 02/19/03 01:12 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I hope we don't go to war


Wait a minute! Does that mean that you disagree with war? If so, and I don't believe that you went to a protest, how many others like you do you think there are that don't want a war but chose not to protest?


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Offlinefelix
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1318010 - 02/19/03 01:30 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

not to mention bush is being dictated by senile old fart...his father. old age can severley impair your judgement and bush is not going to dissapoint his father.


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OfflinePed
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1318199 - 02/19/03 04:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"War is my last choice."

That's a line that will be echoed on satire television programs for the next 10 years, starting in 2004. That is, if Bush can keep his finger off the button.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1318476 - 02/19/03 07:14 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And really, with less than 1 percent of the worlds people protesting... why should he?




Okay, well, that is the WORLDS population, 1 percent would still be millions of people. Places like Africa which have the largest populations in the world probably do not even have the technology to know that there is a war going on, or even a protest.

If you think about the percentage of people who live in the countries of the UN, I know that percentage would be higher. Protest or not, I think there are more people against war than for it.


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1318639 - 02/19/03 08:00 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"Some in the world don't view Saddam Hussein as a risk to peace," he added. "I respectfully disagree."



the one sentence sums up everthing. there is no one on the planet who would be able to have more information about this than Bush. this is what the war is about. as much as stupid hippie demonstrators like to hold up their "no blood for oil" signs, the anitwar protests really don't make any point. in the other countries of the world, the protests are just america bashing, because most of the people of the world dislike the american gov't. they don't ever really give any good reasons why we shouldn't go to war. that's why these protests don't matter. and in the US, the protests mainly consist of old ass hippies trying to relive their glory days of standing up to the man like this is another vietnam or something.
Bottom line, this war is not about oil, those who protest need a better reason to, or they will just be ignored.


Edited by flow (02/19/03 08:00 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1318738 - 02/19/03 08:27 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the one sentence sums up everthing

Not quite. Saddam was a far greater threat to peace 15 years ago when he was involved in a major war against Iran. America's response to Saddam then? Give him billion dollar loans and sell him chemical weapons.

When i hear Bush talking about morals I'm afraid there's something rotten in Denmark.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1318846 - 02/19/03 09:12 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the anitwar protests really don't make any point.

So its not a good point to not want innocent civilians to die by America's hands? Or for American soldiers to die in an unjustified war?


they don't ever really give any good reasons why we shouldn't go to war.

See above.

Bottom line, this war is not about oil, those who protest need a better reason to, or they will just be ignored.

I know I for one disagree with the manner in which Bush is trying to push his agenda through with no regard for our allies thoughts and concerns. I'm also against going into war unless it is absolutely necessary, and so far, there are no indications that it is absolutely necessary.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1318858 - 02/19/03 09:20 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I read the article twice, then did a search of the page. The only place I could find the words "what protest" is in the subject of the thread.

yes. i was looking for that too...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: MushyMay]
    #1319126 - 02/19/03 11:37 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Wait a minute! Does that mean that you disagree with war? If so, and I don't believe that you went to a protest, how many others like you do you think there are that don't want a war but chose not to protest?



Not enough to make a difference.

And hope we don't is not the same as we'll probably have to.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1319163 - 02/19/03 11:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

hope we don't is not the same as we'll probably have to.


I don't understand what your getting at here. I don't see how it relates to my post. You still didn't answer the question.
Quote:

Does that mean that you disagree with war?




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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: MushyMay]
    #1319208 - 02/19/03 12:09 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Do I disagree with war? That depends on the reason for the war so I can't give a yes or no answer to that. I have no wish to see a war. I'd rather there was never another war. I'd rather there was no need. I'd rather Saddam stepped down, took his cash and left.

Having said that, there will be times when war is thrust upon us and the good which will come from it outweigh the bad. I believe Saddam has these weapons and given a chance, he'll use them. I hope he gives them up. I hope we don't have to go in and take them.




--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1319252 - 02/19/03 12:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I'd have to say that I agree with you on more than one point there. In this current situation with Saddam, it is very difficult to know what the right course of action is (I certainly don't profess to know what it is.) Saddam may have WMD and he will most likely use them. My major concern is not so much Iraq and Saddam, I'm sure the US can take Iraq out very quickly. The problem is what happens later. I don't really like the idea of muslim extremists going bonkers because of the US. Not to mention other countries who suddenly decide to follow in the footsteps of the US and start unilateral pre-emptive strikes against anyone they see as a threat.


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Skikid16]
    #1319340 - 02/19/03 12:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

So its not a good point to not want innocent civilians to die by America's hands? Or for American soldiers to die in an unjustified war?




duh, no one wants war. you could've protested WWII, with that same reason, or any of the other just wars america has fought in. What innocent civilians are we killing?? don't innocent casualities happen in every war(and alot less happen when we're in charge)?? so you need a better reason as to why we should not fight THIS war.
Quote:

I'm also against going into war unless it is absolutely necessary, and so far, there are no indications that it is absolutely necessary.




there's a difference between being a pacifist and a pushover.
do you know if it is absolutely necessary better than our top gov't officials?


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1319494 - 02/19/03 02:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

alot less happen when we're in charge??


Are you sure about that?


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1320124 - 02/19/03 05:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What innocent civilians are we killing?? don't innocent casualities happen in every war(and alot less happen when we're in charge)?? so you need a better reason as to why we should not fight THIS war. 



How about the fact that this is the first time in American history where we will launch a PRE-EMPTIVE attack.  This is unprecedented.  We are the current super-power, and this is how we display our power to other countries?  Through fear?  This country was never based on such ridiculous claims.

How about the fact that so many of our allies are against it?  Have you thought about the possible repercussions this "war" may cause between countries who were once friendly to us?

Quote:

do you know if it is absolutely necessary better than our top gov't officials? 



ASK WHY!  This is such an important action.....I can't even begin to state how fundamentally important it is to QUESTION officials.  Or, you could just go ahead and believe whatever they tell you.  How many times have "officials" lied to us in the past?  Too many to count....

And lastly, I am a bit disheartened by all of this bashing of the subject I chose as the topic for this thread.  As I said before, it is only MY summary of the article that I had read, and a very sarcastic one at that. 

Peace fellow shroomers  :smile: 


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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1320468 - 02/19/03 08:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What I don't get is how Bush claims to know so much about what's going on in Iraq, and knows that they have WMD without a shadow of a doubt, then why doesn't he know where any of them are?


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1320543 - 02/19/03 09:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What I don't get is how Bush claims to know so much about what's going on in Iraq, and knows that they have WMD without a shadow of a doubt, then why doesn't he know where any of them are?




I think Bush knows. But he doesnt want to tell the public, because the information is damaging. I suspect that his father gave Saddam US WMDs before the Gulf War. Bush would never let that kind of info out, and Saddam knows it. Saddam knows Bush will never present the true evidence to the UN. So he holds onto the WMD because he knows the Bush family is too proud to spill its secrets.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: pattern]
    #1321047 - 02/20/03 05:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I suspect that his father gave Saddam US WMDs before the Gulf War.

No suspect about it. American companies were shipping enormous quantities over to Saddam with the full approval of Bush. Indeed British companies supplied arms that were shipped over using the credit export aggreement - which means if the client (Saddam) defaults on payments the british taxpayer picks up the tab and pays off the arms companies. I'm not sure if a similar arrangement exists in America.

We didn't just give Saddam chemical weapons, the taxpayer paid for them too.


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1321153 - 02/20/03 06:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"War is my last choice," Bush said at the White House as echoes of anti-war protests circled the globe. "But the risk of doing nothing is even a worse option as far as I am concerned."



War is his last choice, and he's just speeding up the inevitible. Every day in the newspaper I read some new article about the UN urging Iraq to comply or face war. The only difference is that the US is going to back up what it says.


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: MushyMay]
    #1321706 - 02/20/03 10:26 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

alot less happen when we're in charge??
Are you sure about that?




will more innocent iraqis die in a revolution, or if we invade? the answer is obvious.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1321720 - 02/20/03 10:32 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What about this, we take the money being spent on a military buildup, and transfer that into inspections and humanitarian aid. That way, the Iraqi population gets fed, inspectors have more power because of the increase in numbers, and if anything is found, the weapons are confiscated. If we help the masses, detaining Saddam will be much easier because we will have the support, not resistance of the population.


I really don't know, but I think increasing humanitarian aid and increased inspectors sounds like a pretty viable option, what does everyone else think?


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1321738 - 02/20/03 10:37 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How about the fact that this is the first time in American history where we will launch a PRE-EMPTIVE attack. This is unprecedented. We are the current super-power, and this is how we display our power to other countries? Through fear? This country was never based on such ridiculous claims.




this isn't a pre-emptive attack. This is more of an international policing action. We are the current superpower, and we display our power to other countries by SUPPORTING UN RESOLUTIONS. And we get shit because other countries are afraid, but they voted on disarming iraq. We back our talk up, other countries just talk. Which country was it that didn't support disarming Saddam????
Quote:

ASK WHY! This is such an important action.....I can't even begin to state how fundamentally important it is to QUESTION officials. Or, you could just go ahead and believe whatever they tell you. How many times have "officials" lied to us in the past? Too many to count....




I agree. My point was that Saddam is a threat. Who would know this better than a man who has complete control of the CIA, military intelligence, spy satellites, etc... Yes, our government has lied to us before, but is it that unreasonable to beleive them when they say a ruthless dictator is a threat?


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1321747 - 02/20/03 10:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

What I don't get is how Bush claims to know so much about what's going on in Iraq, and knows that they have WMD without a shadow of a doubt, then why doesn't he know where any of them are?



do iraq know where ours are? do you? we most certainly have them though. but the question is irrelevant because i bet bush does know where they are.


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Skikid16]
    #1321762 - 02/20/03 10:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

if it were possible, thats what we would do.
i don't think saddam would allow it for one. he views the current inspections as a joke, and wouldn't allow them to happen in the first place if he thought they were actually going to find his shit. He's not that stupid.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1321774 - 02/20/03 10:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You acknowledge that your government has lied to you many times in the past..yet you still stand by it in the face of overwhelming opposition to what it's doing???


--------------------
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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1321804 - 02/20/03 10:53 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That you discount some of the largest protests in history is laughable.

Not every single person opposed to war, could attend the protests. Not even 1 in a 1000. Protesters are the most convicted and vocal of their opinions. A lot of people dont care about war one way or another, and I'd wager anyone who had some sort of half caring opinion would hope war could be avoided, and not rushed into headlong as Bush proposes.

When 10 million people gather in a united stance WORLDWIDE in one of the BIGGEST protests EVER...

THAT SAYS SOMETHING.

And if you cant hear it, you're purposely not listening.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1321877 - 02/20/03 11:19 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well why don' t we at least try?


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Rono]
    #1321880 - 02/20/03 11:20 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You acknowledge that your government has lied to you many times in the past..yet you still stand by it in the face of overwhelming opposition to what it's doing???



what overwhelming opposition?? It started out that way but as we have made our case, there are very few countries who oppose regime change in iraq. The only difference is we are not dragging our feet.
And are we supposed to think that France, and Russia don't have alterior motives for preventing a war in iraq?? They are not countries run by saints.


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Offlineflow
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: ]
    #1321890 - 02/20/03 11:23 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

When 10 million people gather in a united stance WORLDWIDE in one of the BIGGEST protests EVER...




yep, it says a lot of people don't like or trust the US gov't. Also, it shows that people don't like war, neither of these things come as a surprise. Also, neither has anything to do with this war. more reason is needed for the protests than "no war for oil"


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1321899 - 02/20/03 11:26 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Both of them have everything to do with this war... War is not the will of a great many people, governments should listen to that and consider it. But they wont.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1321916 - 02/20/03 11:31 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

what overwhelming opposition??


ummm...perhaps you heard something about the largest global protest in history?...


--------------------
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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Rono]
    #1322023 - 02/20/03 12:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

largest global protest in history


As I'm sure others will be quick to point out (although I don't agree with them) the 10 million approx. protesters can hardly be described as "overwhelming." They are only a very small percentage of the population.... they're only hippies who would protest anything... blah blah blah

[please note the sarcasm above]


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: flow]
    #1322165 - 02/20/03 01:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

this isn't a pre-emptive attack. This is more of an international policing action. 



"International Policing Action".........now that's a euphemism if I ever heard one.  I think I may have heard a few  :tongue:

pre-emptive

preemptive adj : designed or having the power to deter or prevent an anticipated situation or occurrence; "a preemptive business offer
 


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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InvisibleClosetCase
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Anonymous]
    #1322221 - 02/20/03 01:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

War is his last choice, and he's just speeding up the inevitible.




(don't take anything here as an attack ...I'm just interested in opinions)

What is the reason why war with Iraq is inevitable? I know there are a lot of theorys out there why we are going to war with Iraq. I just hope you don't believe it's cause they are a serious threat to us right now.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: ]
    #1322257 - 02/20/03 01:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That you discount some of the largest protests in history is laughable.



I'm not discounting anything, except your comprehension.

There were a lot of people, of that there is no doubt. However you want to look at the numbers, it was a small percentage. If a president always acted upon the polls he'd be named Bill Clinton. And to be accurate, the majority of Americans support Bush in this matter. You may not like that, but it's how it is.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Rono]
    #1322266 - 02/20/03 01:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

what overwhelming opposition??


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ummm...perhaps you heard something about the largest global protest in history?...




Sorry Rono, the numbers don't support the term "overwhelming".



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: ClosetCase]
    #1322282 - 02/20/03 02:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The reason I say war is inevitible is because Iraq has broken its pledge to destroy all its chemical and biological weapons, violating not only the US's will, but the UN's. It's only a matter of time before he devolopes nukes or uses WMD over Israel, our ally, and spurring possibly a world war.


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1322295 - 02/20/03 02:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

to be accurate, the majority of Americans support Bush in this matter


I think it might be your turn to provide a reference now.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: MushyMay]
    #1322322 - 02/20/03 02:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

to be accurate, the majority of Americans support Bush in this matter


I think it might be your turn to provide a reference now.




(CBS) As Americans weigh the evidence presented Wednesday to the United Nations by Secretary of State Colin Powell, a new CBS News poll shows an increasing percentage believe the case has been made for military action, but most still prefer that the U.S. get U.N. approval before taking such action and would like to give the weapons inspectors more time to work.

Americans remain generally supportive of military action against Iraq ? a feeling that hasn?t changed much since last fall. In this poll, 70% approve of the U.S. taking military action against Iraq.

APPROVE OF MILITARY ACTION AGAINST IRAQ?

NOW
Yes 70%

No 21%


JANUARY '03
Yes 64%

No 30%


NOVEMBER '02
Yes 70%

No 23%

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/07/opinion/polls/main539763.shtml


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1322420 - 02/20/03 03:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I just wonder what public opinion of Hitler was in Germany in the 30's? Just curious?


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1322440 - 02/20/03 03:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

thanks :wink: 


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Rono]
    #1323025 - 02/20/03 06:50 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Let me preface this quote by stating for the record that I (unlike Saddam Hussein) respect the right of people to protest the plans of their governments. Hell, I attended more than one rally protesting the Viet Nam war, got roughed up by the police, and spent the night in jail -- and that was in Canada, for cryin' out loud! In my opinion, attending a demonstration to show your support for something you believe in is a good thing.

Having said that, after reading this thread I just have to throw in some commentary from that famous ex-National Lampoon writer, P.J. O'Rourke. As O'Rourke has said on numerous occasions, Liberals have no sense of humor, so I am fully prepared for the indignant response his words will trigger, but as they say in the funny papers, "Fuck 'em if they can't take a joke."

And now ... Heeeeeeere's P.J. --

Not long after Andy and I met, we were driving down Pennsylvania Avenue and encountered some or another noisy pinko demonstration. "How come," I asked Andy, "whenever something upsets the Left, you see immediate marches and parades and rallies with signs already printed and rhyming slogans already composed, whereas whenever something upsets the Right, you see two members of the Young Americans for Freedom waving a six-inch American flag?"

"We have jobs," said Andy.




pinky


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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Phred]
    #1323056 - 02/20/03 07:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Gotta love P.J.

I never thought I'd be interested in reading about economics until I was given a copy of Eat the Rich. While we're at it here's another quote that D.U.I. Dubya can probably relate to:

"Giving government money and power is like giving car keys and whiskey to a teenage boy"


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1323070 - 02/20/03 07:10 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

(laughs insanily)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Bush asks - "What protests?" [Re: MushyMay]
    #1323123 - 02/20/03 07:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Giving government money and power is like giving car keys and whiskey to a teenage boy"

Yup. An all-time classic quotable quote, for sure.

I haven't been able to get my hands on many of his books yet, just "Parliament of Whores", "All the Trouble in the World", "Give War a Chance", and maybe one other whose name escapes me -- "Holidays in Hell"? Can't remember.

I want to read "Eat the Rich" and "Republican Party Reptile" -- I hear those are both pretty good. Hell, I want to read all of them.

pinky


--------------------


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