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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Light discussion
    #13164059 - 09/08/10 08:34 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Light-regulation-metabolic-pathways-in/19915832.html


"Substantial metabolic differences have been detected between cultures growing in light and darkness. Light seems to have a different effect in dependence on whether the nutritional conditions are optimal or not. Hence, under optimal conditions, light and dark metabolism should be approximately equally effective in supporting growth, but alterations in conditions would affect the processes differently (Carlile 1965)."

"Manipulation of key genes (once identified) could abolish negative regulation of a given mechanism or enhance expression of certain genes without the need of a light stimulus."

"a light effect detected in one species can neither be taken for granted not be ruled out in another without experimental confirmation."

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13164071 - 09/08/10 08:39 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

A lot has been discovered since 1965, and also since 1985 when stamets wrote TMC, but that's a very interesting article in that it shows the ability of fungi to utilize energy from light was well known to science long before it was fully understood by mushroom growers.

For mushrooms, we know they grow larger, meatier, and have much more weight when exposed to 12/12 light at a high frequency in the 6500K color temperature range. 
RR


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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13164459 - 09/08/10 10:42 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That article was written last year.


I'd love to see the paper on what your suggesting.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13165195 - 09/08/10 01:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

That's strange.  I could have sworn I saw 1965 on there somewhere.

What paper?  If you're asking about the 'heavier, meatier, larger, etc.,' it's from personal experience, as well as the personal experience of thousands of other growers and commercial mushroom farms.  It's why we use light, and not just as a pinning trigger.  You might also read the mushroom growers handbook, which is posted as a sticky in the gourmet forum.  Also, GGMM by Stamets and Mycelium Running, also by Paul.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13165296 - 09/08/10 01:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The article itself references a number of studies, your not seeing things. lol

I don't see any commercial growers using light in this manner, perhaps to light up the workspace for safety reasons, but i can find no use of lights in commercial fungi growing as demonstrated here at the Shroomery.

Show me a pic of a commercial grower with a 6500k fluorescent light right above each grow bin.. Then I would start to believe.

Certainly there must be some hard proof to corroborate this theory?
I'd even take a simple side by side test done here at the Shroomery. Something more than conjecture.

So if I'm coming off as bit trite RR, I am using the best tools I know of.

You can't apply the same light requirements from one species to another, as they all have unique responses to light.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13166218 - 09/08/10 04:38 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HerbBaker said:

Show me a pic of a commercial grower with a 6500k fluorescent light right above each grow bin.. Then I would start to believe.





Sure.  Show me a shiitake farm that gets 100% B.E. on the first flush like this one does without bright lights.  Why does it have to be fluorescent?  Waterproof fluorescent fixtures are quite expensive and produce a lot of heat, which then has to be gotten rid of.  They're also not as energy efficient as LED.  This farm has 6500K CFL and PAR 30 LED spotlights near the ceiling, and two strands of 6500K LED light rope over each shelf.
RR



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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13166381 - 09/08/10 05:06 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Is that your farm Roger?

Its very nice, but I'm afraid it doesn't count. I already know you like to use lights.

If your saying your the first to do this, then great, you should do a side by side and write a paper!

Of course shiitake aren't cubes, each species would have to be tested on its own to demonstrate its unique light reaction or lack thereof.

Also remember the heat from the lights will increase the metabolic rate of the fungi. When you consider the role of light, how much are you allowing for this offset if any?

I agree LED would be better because of the little heat they produce and their long life.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering exactly what the yield increases are and why. thanks.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13167201 - 09/08/10 07:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

HerbBaker said:
Is that your farm Roger?

Its very nice, but I'm afraid it doesn't count. I already know you like to use lights.





Then your opinion is null and void, because that is my farm.

I have already experimented for 40 years, so I'm not about to repeat experiments I did with lighting over the years, impacting my livelihood just to prove a point for the thousandth time.

If what you want is a 'paper' written by some college kid instead of a mushroom farmer with four decades of experience growing mushrooms, then I suggest you seek such a thing and follow that advice.  Every mushroom farm I know keeps their secrets very closely guarded.  They want every competitive advantage over other farms.  I'm the only one I know who freely shares the knowledge I've gained from actual experience.  If you chose not to accept it, no problem.  There's no law that says you have to.

I wholesale my mushrooms for $6 per pound and sell to distributors for only $5 per pound, so the difference of only fifty to a hundred pounds a week means making a living or going broke.  I don't run expensive bright lights because I think they look pretty.
RR


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Re: Light discussion (moved) [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13167206 - 09/08/10 07:14 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Basic cultivation, not an advanced mycology topic.

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OfflineDamion5050
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13167228 - 09/08/10 07:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

HerbBaker said:
Is that your farm Roger?

Its very nice, but I'm afraid it doesn't count. I already know you like to use lights.





Then your opinion is null and void, because that is my farm.

I have already experimented for 40 years, so I'm not about to repeat experiments I did with lighting over the years, impacting my livelihood just to prove a point for the thousandth time.

If what you want is a 'paper' written by some college kid instead of a mushroom farmer with four decades of experience growing mushrooms, then I suggest you seek such a thing and follow that advice.  Every mushroom farm I know keeps their secrets very closely guarded.  They want every competitive advantage over other farms.  I'm the only one I know who freely shares the knowledge I've gained from actual experience.  If you chose not to accept it, no problem.  There's no law that says you have to.

I wholesale my mushrooms for $6 per pound and sell to distributors for only $5 per pound, so the difference of only fifty to a hundred pounds a week means making a living or going broke.  I don't run expensive bright lights because I think they look pretty.
RR




:rockon:

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Re: Light discussion [Re: Damion5050]
    #13167243 - 09/08/10 07:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:cactuarrun:

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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: plasma]
    #13167289 - 09/08/10 07:29 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

not again, this dude will argue that fire isnt hot so...:facepalm:


:getstoned:


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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13167446 - 09/08/10 08:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you read the article all it does is confirm what RR and other commercial growers do.

I don't know what knowledge you have of biochemistry or genetics so I won't go into detail, but the article basically says that the presence of light causes many changes in fungi metabolism due to the presence of special light receptor proteins. A host of things are stimulated by light, from the metabolic pathways that lead to reproductive structure formation (fruits), movement of structures (phototropism), increased accumulation of fats, etc etc.


Quote:

"Substantial metabolic differences have been detected between cultures growing in light and darkness. Light seems to have a different effect in dependence on whether the nutritional conditions are optimal or not. Hence, under optimal conditions, light and dark metabolism should be approximately equally effective in supporting growth, but alterations in conditions would affect the processes differently (Carlile 1965)."




I think you have misunderstood this quote "Hence, under optimal conditions, light and dark metabolism should be approximately equally effective in supporting growth, but alterations in conditions would affect the processes differently "

If you read on and also the original article they are saying that if nutrition is optimal at EVERY stage of development then light/dark should (not a fact, they are assuming) be the same. If the nutrition deviates from optimal, light will have an effect on the metabolism of the fungi.

If you realize that at different stages of growth fungi has different nutritional requirements and that you have no way of actually changing the composition of the substrate every time the fungus enters a new stage, then you have to conclude that you cannot have optimal conditions all of the time (optimal conditions for spore germinating will be different to that of colonization or pinning and you only have one set of conditions to work with). As your quote says, when conditions are not optimal, light DOES have an influence in the nutritional metabolism of fungi.

This of course is without even considering the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have optimal conditions in a farm or even a home grow. We grow plants in vitro using equipment and chemicals worth thousands of dollars and we can't even get close to optimal conditions.


You really can't go quoting single sentences of a research article out of context and without reading carefully the rest of it.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: Nibin]
    #13167739 - 09/08/10 08:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It also needs to be mentioned that the paper concerns conidial fungi, many of which are native to dark spaces.
RR


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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13167765 - 09/08/10 08:59 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I hate arguing the benefits of LED over any heat throwing fixture. The humidity in the air is so much more vital, why destroy it when you do not have to?


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Re: Light discussion [Re: XiC_clone]
    #13167778 - 09/08/10 09:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Mostly, I wasn't sure until I got my farm operational that the LEDs would throw enough light to work.  I was hoping they would, but wasn't sure, and in fact I ended up removing some of the PAR 30 LED spotlights and replacing them with high wattage CFLs to up the fruiting performance.  The combination works great.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13167795 - 09/08/10 09:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I am not on the same scale, but I always get the light as close to the mycelium as possible. Blinding white LED light under a foot from the top layer has done the trick time and time again. And I can not find any brighter light source that throws no heat. Bright blinding unavoidable light, filling the fruiting chamber.


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Re: Light discussion [Re: XiC_clone]
    #13168388 - 09/08/10 11:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks for the responses, I guess I'll just do my own experiments with light.

The article cites a number of different species, sometimes light has been shown to also slow growth in certain species.

Does anyone know the equivalent of 65000k in nanometers?

I see the blue LED are 465nm, would this be the best color LED to get?

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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13168433 - 09/08/10 11:34 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Color temperature is a more accurate representation of total useful light than wavelength.  You are correct.  With certain species, very bright light will slow down colonization, but low level light of around 100 lux will speed up growth with those same species.  It amounts to experimenting with various species and even strains of various species to determine what works best.

If you'll search the board for posts over the last two years, you'll find hundreds of growers who switched to 6500K fluorescent lighting with their P cubensis and reported dramatic improvements in performance.  A few of us are experimenting with LED, and to the best of my knowledge, I have the only commercial shiitake farm that is primarily lit with LEDs.  I have a few high wattage CFLs to supplement the LEDs, but I'm sure they could be replaced by more high wattage LEDs, but the cost is an issue now.  High power LEDs are still a few orders of magnitude more expensive than fluorescent.  I'm hoping as the technology advances, they'll drop in price.

I do know that I'm getting 100% BE on the first flush, while most shiitake farms are getting 70% to 100% over two to three flushes, the substrates remaining in the fruiting area for six weeks or so.  This allows me to do one flush and out in two weeks, replacing the spent block with a fresh one, dramatically raising my output per square foot per month.  The spent blocks are moved outside where they fruit again for a couple of months without attention.  We use these outdoor mushrooms for our own table and to trade with our neighbors for eggs, milk, cheese, beef, and vegetables.  Only the indoor mushrooms go to the grocery stores.

For those of you who didn't see it already, our local newspaper did a front page story on our mushroom farm.  Check it out.
RR

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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13169502 - 09/09/10 09:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
  We use these outdoor mushrooms for our own table and to trade with our neighbors for eggs, milk, cheese, beef, and vegetables.  Only the indoor mushrooms go to the grocery stores.
RR





That's the way life should be...nice and simple...


BTW,I read that article about your mushroom farm RR,Congratz!


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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Light discussion [Re: Mad_Hatter2004]
    #13218931 - 09/19/10 03:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

According to current accepted scientific theory/consensus (as close to fact as science comes) mushroom/fungi do not use light for energy,.  It could be that some unknown species of fungi perfecti  could use light for energy but so far that hasn't been proven, esp. for edible fungi and cubes, etc.  That would be like saying humans use light for energy and we do not, we use light for biological process (ex. creating vit D), but not for energy.  Both humans and fungi use food for energy.  Fungi/mushroom do use light for biological process, but, not for energy (which would be photosynthesis).

Mushrooms grow toward light for the same reasons plants grow toward light: "phototropism"; not for energy.  Mushrooms and plants grow toward light so they can absorb more of it, but that doesn't mean mushrooms are using the light for energy, they use it for biological process, but not for energy. 

Assuming mushrooms use light for energy simply because they grow toward it is a logical fallacy called (in Latin) "Post hoc ergo propter hoc" or (in English) "after this, therefore because of this".  The reason it's a fallacy is there is no proof, it's an assumption that because Y happened after X, therefore X must have caused Y; which of course isn't a sound argument.

Plants and mushrooms grow most in the night and early morning.  But that doesn't mean fungi/mushrooms doesn't need light.





FWIW, here are some references about phototropism, photosensitivity and non-photosynthetic reactions in fungi/mushrooms:


This first reference shows talk about light inhibition of shiitake and how button mushrooms are grown in the dark.  Some peole will say shiitake do better in light even on agar, and during spawn run, but according to experimental method (i.e., scientific method) shiitake can be hindered by light (see quote below).  I hand typed this quote, so i hope people fine it helpful.


1. "Mushroom biology: concise basics and current developments"
By Philip G. Miles, Shu-ting Chang
World Scientific Publishing Company (1997)

Quote:

d. Light

As non-photosynthetic organisms the influence of light upon fungi comes as a surprise to some, but there are numerous examples of such influence. There are reports that vegetative growth of some species on agar may be inhibited by light.  It is a common laboratory practice to grow the mycelium of shiitake mushroom (Lentinula edodes) in the dark to obtain better growth than in light grown cultures.  More frequent is the observation of zones of dense and light hyphal growth, or zones of vegetative growth alternating with zones of sporualation.  Such zonation may also be genetically controlled, as has been shown in Neurospora and Schizophyllum.  The death of fungi in dished places in direct sunlight has also been reported, but, in the absence of experimental studies, this death is probably attributable to excessive temperatures brought about by the sunlight.  Just as high temperature may result in the inability of a species to synthesize a needed vitamin and inhibit mycelial growth, so may strong light induce the same effect by light destruction of vitamins, which may be overcome by the addition of natural mineral, such as yeast extract, which is a rich in vitamins, to the medium.

While phototropic responses in the sporangiophores of Phycomyces and Piloblous of the class Zygomycetes are well known and have been the subject of much experimental study, the light effects of greatest interest in mushroom biology involve the development of the furiting bodies.  Light may trigger the initiation of primordia in some species and be required for the development of other stages of fruiting body development. The positioning of the stipe and pileus, which is essential for the basidiosproes to fall free from the hymenial surface of the gills of the agaric or tubes of the polypore, has been shown in a number of mushrooms to be controlled by phototropic reposes.  It is well known that the button mushroom (Agaricus bisporus) is grown in caves or mushroom houses in the dark.  This is because light is actually inhibitory to the development of primordia and affect stipe elongation and pileus expansion of this spices.

It should also be mentioned that light in the ultra violate region of 200-300 nm [i.e., UV-C; bad stuff] has an effect upon vegetative growth.  The effect may be lethal or it may be to induce mutations [Fastfred as written about mutation via UV-C of cubes] since these are the wavelengths absorbed by DNA (deoxyribonucleic acid).  The effects of ultraviolet light can be revered by exposure to visible light in the range of 360-420 nm [i.e., UV-A to PAR range blue light].  This process is called photoreactivation.  These wavelengths (360-420 nm) activate an enzyme which splits the thymine and cytosine dimers, which are formed as a consequence of the ultraviolet radiation creating covalent bonds between adjacent pyrimidine nucleotides.  The dimers inhibit normal DNA synthesis, and thus in photoreactivation the enzymes that splits the dimer permits normal DNA synthesis to take place.








2. "Light regulation of metabolic pathways in fungi"
Doris Tisch, Monika Schmoll
Applied microbiology and biotechnology, Volume: 85, Issue: 5, pp. 1259-1277, (2009)
(full text) http://www.biomedsearch.com/attachments/00/19/91/58/19915832/253_2009_Article_2320.pdf



3. "Mycomorphology Part 2: Basidiocarp Keeps its Balance"
Peter Werner
Mycena News, March 2003
(full text) http://www.mykoweb.com/articles/mycomorphology_2.html



4. "Perception and response to gravity in higher fungi--a critical appraisal"
Moore D
New Phytol. 1991;117:3-23
(full text) http://www.fungi4schools.org/GBF_web/Teacher_Notes/Shop-bought_mushrooms/gravity_reviewNewPhyt.pdf


5. "Successful outdoor cultivation of a photosensitive wild strain of edible Pleurotus ostreatus (Fr.) Kummel (Oyster mushroom) from the Western Ghats region of Goa"
Kamat, N. M., Desilva N.V. &  Phadte K.R.
Nature Precedings : hdl:10101/npre.2010.4213.1 : Posted 12 Feb 2010
(full text) http://precedings.nature.com/documents/4213/version/1/files/npre20104213-1.pdf



Kind of on this topic is bioluminescent mushrooms, which, just like plants, emit photons (particles of light).  For plants this is called "chlorophyll fluorescence" and is in the red and far range range of PAR (Photosynthetically Active Radiation; 400-700nm).  Chi floucucnse is a method to measure rate of photosynthesis in plants and some bioluminescent fungi use the emitted photons to interact with some files, etc.

6. "Phototropism, Bioluminescence, and the Diptera"
John M. Sivinski
Florida Entomologist (vol. 81, no. 3, pp. 282. (Sept. 1998)
(full text) http://www.fcla.edu/FlaEnt/fe81p282.html


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Edited by pinophile (09/19/10 04:04 PM)

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Offlinepinophile
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13218954 - 09/19/10 03:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

HerbBaker said:

Does anyone know the equivalent of 65000k in nanometers?




You can't covert from Kelvin to nanometers with accuracy.  Kelvin is a poor way to quantify a light source used for growing fungi or plants; Kelvin is a measure of color temp on a black sphere.  Nanometers tell us what wavelength of light, which is what we should use.  Higher Kelvin means bluer light, thus a range of 400-500 nm (blue range) or 400-600 (blue to green to yellow range) would be ideal if it's true that 6500 Kelvin is ideal.

If you see my post above this one read the quoted section about "photoreactivation" of fungi using 360-420 nm if the fungi was exposed to UV-C light.  Using namanotmers is the standard method of wavelength quantification for biological processes.


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Edited by pinophile (09/19/10 03:57 PM)

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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: pinophile]
    #13218985 - 09/19/10 04:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

yeah but dont we use 6500 Kelvin lighting because its the closest we indoor mushroom cultivators get to natural sunlight? (spectrum speaking):sun::sunny:


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Re: Light discussion [Re: 13shrooms]
    #13219007 - 09/19/10 04:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Hey,

No, it doesn't tell us enough about the color of photons (qualification) in the light, and 6,500 K is not what the sun emits all day.  On average natural light is mostly green, not blue.  In the morning sunlight has lots of far red light and the same in the evening.  The best to way mimic natural light is to use a light source that emits about less blue, more green and medium red; to find that data on a lamp we need to look at the SPD (Spectral Power Distribution) of the lamp.

Not only that but seasonally sun light changes in predominance of wavelengths.

Looking at the SPD is the best way to see what the lamp emits color wise, Kelvin is too clumsy and doesn't give us enough info.  It seems true ~6,500 K works well for mushrooms, but, that doesn't tell us what the mushrooms are getting light-color wise.  The best way to quantify this would be to use a spectroradiometer to qualify/quantify the wavelengths of light, which is how SPDs are created.

Using Kelvin is fine is that is all one can use, but using nm to qualify light is much better and is what to use for biological use of light.


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Edited by pinophile (09/19/10 04:40 PM)

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Re: Light discussion [Re: pinophile]
    #13220803 - 09/19/10 09:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for responding!

If mushrooms grow more at night, then you need to look at the spectrum of moonlight.

I have read that moonlight is 420-470 nanometers and sunlight runs from about 290nm (the bottom end of UVB) to about 760nm (the top end of the visible light spectrum.)

Folks have been using blue (470nm) LEDS to simulate moonlight in aquariums with great results.

I started using blue leds recently and I'm pretty happy with the results so far. I plan on doing a few side by side tests with various lights to compare.

I think 6500k fluorescence contain a lot higher light frequencies that cubes simply can't see and don't respond to.

Perhaps cubes utilize the blue light 24 hours a day and possibly lower uv bands during the day period also.

Maybe create a blue/purple LED combo for day and a straight blue array for night simulation.

Edited by HerbBaker (09/19/10 09:59 PM)

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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13220851 - 09/19/10 10:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think they use the suns various radiation (during the day at least) more than the spectrum matters and respond to lights due to circadian rhythms but thats complete speculation on my part. :shrug:

:stoner:


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Re: Light discussion [Re: 13shrooms]
    #13221071 - 09/19/10 10:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It's possible higher light frequencies (660nm) have an effect on maturing fruit-bodies that isn't exhibited in primordia formation, i.e., spore formation.
Could a red sky in the early evening or morning trigger spore maturity? :shrug:

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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13221654 - 09/20/10 07:56 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Most of us are not growing outdoors.  For indoor growing 6500K lamps will give the best results, and that means most pins, meatiest fruits, and shortest time from initiation to harvest. This is based on side by side comparison with various commercially available luminaries over the years. When I've said most growth occurs during the dark cycle, that's based on indoor growing and simply measuring the mushrooms twice daily as they grow.
RR


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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13221889 - 09/20/10 09:39 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I know your stance on this topic Roger. I think your missing my point.

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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #20620299 - 09/26/14 06:16 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

In reading the manuals and tutorials, lighting times seem all over the map.
Some say a couple of hours a few times a day and others say 12 on and 12 off.
Is there anything definitive for each stage of primordial growth, pinning, fruiting?
Thanks

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Re: Light discussion [Re: peso]
    #20620306 - 09/26/14 06:21 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

The circadian rhythm is best for all stages.  12 on / 12 off.


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Re: Light discussion [Re: 13shrooms]
    #20621970 - 09/26/14 03:37 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

If using florescent lights, should the light be direct or indirect?

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Re: Light discussion [Re: peso]
    #20622143 - 09/26/14 04:11 PM (10 years, 3 months ago)

as close as you want without adding any heat to your fc.  :thumbup:

I colonize in indirect sunlight coming into the room window to establish circadian rhythms then fruit with direct 65kelven lights.  :sporedrop:





shop lights, lamps etc..  mushies arent to picky about the source. :smirk:


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Re: Light discussion [Re: 13shrooms]
    #20624407 - 09/27/14 04:38 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks.  I'm using very diffused natural light (lots of shading outside the window) and 2' florescents with 6500K ratings. 
By "colonizing" are you saying that you don't grow out the mycelium in total darkness, but allow natural circadian light during that phase?
Many thanks for the input.

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Re: Light discussion [Re: peso]
    #20624415 - 09/27/14 04:47 AM (10 years, 3 months ago)

:bigyesnod:

I use light of some kind the whole time :thumbup:



no matter what your using or how you prefer..



just not direct sunlight due to heat unless you are initiating pinning with 15min a day direct and the rest indirect.  Ive read thats beneficial for triggering pinning somewhere on these bords.. :smirk:

:goodluck:


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