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Anonymous

Creationism and Recommendations
    #1313331 - 02/17/03 07:33 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Texas Tech professor refuses to write letters of recommendation to creationists.

This guy is well within his rights and is violating no one else's. So long as he is only setting these standards for letters of recommendation and not for passing his class, I think he can do anything, even refuse to write them for black people.

Edit: For those with poor reading comprehension skills, I'm am merely saying that he has every right to set such limitations on his letters of recommendation, seeing as how those whom he refuses can simply go to another teacher. He even gives good reason for his decision here.


Edited by Anonymous (02/17/03 07:36 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Anonymous]
    #1313632 - 02/17/03 10:22 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

teachers don't have the right to choose what and what not to teach. Teachers are given standards of topics to be discussed and expectations of what should be learned. The teacher is not within his rights (IMHO) because he is discriminating against those who choose to believe in creation.

With that said i know it says that recomendations aren't governed by the University, however if he's ever taken a civics class he'd know he is discrimnating on the basis of religious belief. Some feel that evolution started after creation..yadda yadda yadda....there's no evidence that either "theory" is true.

EDIT:i'd like to add that just because something is not illegal it still doesn't mean it's right. I admit legally there might be some wiggle room but when the dust settles he's just being a egotistical dick. Can you imagine what would happen if it was the opposite where he wouldn't give a recomendation unless you believed in creation? It would be the top story of CNN


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Edited by Innvertigo (02/17/03 10:27 AM)


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1313751 - 02/17/03 11:11 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

But its a recommendation. A teacher can choose to not write you one because its Tuesday. Its a favor from a teacher, and if a teacher choses not to grant that favor (for whatever reason) then it is their right and choice.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Skikid16]
    #1313986 - 02/17/03 12:37 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

yeah i realized that after reading it again (i'm one of those with low comprehension) i still say it's a form of ignorance and bigotry.  Like i said just because it's legal doesn't make it right.  Damn hippies :grin:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1314251 - 02/17/03 02:10 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I would be surprised if there weren't some professors at some bible colleges that won't give a letter of reccomendation to an athiest studying for a theology degree.

I was watching the 700 Club for some reason the other day. Pat Robertson was crying about some new law in some european country that said that churches couldn't fire employees because of their religious beliefs.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1314334 - 02/17/03 02:45 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Pat Robertson is a dipshit.....

and you're probably right :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Anonymous]
    #1314449 - 02/17/03 03:22 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think he can do anything, even refuse to write them for black people.





???






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OfflineMushyMay
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Anonymous]
    #1314497 - 02/17/03 03:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This thread has become confusing. From what I can see, stonedfish was simply saying that the professor had "the right" to give recommendations to anyone he chooses, and likewise deny recommendations he chooses. I don't think stonedfish was saying that he thought this professor "was right" in doing this.

Is this correct?

I think that, sure, this professor has every right to give out recommendations at his discretion. It's only a recommendation. If you really wanted him to give you a recommendation then just suck up to him (by meeting with me regularly during my office hours to discuss biological questions.)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Anonymous]
    #1314517 - 02/17/03 03:57 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

He was withing his rights legally, but I think that was morally fucked up. I personally believe Creationism is a crock of shit, but still, if someone did well in his class and did all the work, they should be rewarded, even if they have beliefs which go against science.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Anonymous]
    #1314537 - 02/17/03 04:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

If it's a favour from him then he can do what he should be able to help out people who hw feel are likeminded( the black thing Im not so agreeing about). If he personally feels that after teaching somebody something and then having them feel it isn't factual is insulting so what does he owe them?


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Anonymous]
    #1314592 - 02/17/03 04:32 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think he can do anything, even refuse to write them for black people.



While he has every right to deny whomever he wishes, I do think denial because of race is a little more fucked up. The creationist chose to think that way..........


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: silversoul7]
    #1314619 - 02/17/03 04:43 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I personally feel that whether a person receives a recommendation should
depend on their performance, and not their personal beliefs. But, the teacher
has every right to recommend or not recommend whoever he wants to and for
whatever reason.

That pesky First Amendment...I'll tell ya....


I personally believe Creationism is a crock of shit

The following statements should probably be in their own thread:

Left-wing inclined people always seem to be disdainful of creationism. They tend
to believe in evolution. If humans evolved from apes and such, it could be
easily argued that we have maintained certain instinctual characteristics that
make us more inclined to act savagely and selfishly(much like wild animals that we
are supposedly descended from, do).

But, at the same time Left-Wing inclined people seem to think that certain
political beliefs that stress equality, altruism, and lack of authority, can succeed.

If Man has evolved from wild animals, I could argue that Man has some
savageness in him. If Man has savageness in him, he cannot be trusted
to implement and maintain a smoothly functioning society that is based upon
communism or anarchism.

How do you address this problem?





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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1314632 - 02/17/03 04:52 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

How do you address this problem?

Because humans evolved. Maybe (just for argument purposes) part of that evolution has been the transition from small packs to larger groups, then on to societies.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1314656 - 02/17/03 04:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

You are assuming a certain wickedness about wild animals, particularly apes, that surely exists to some extent, but I think you are making more out of it than you really need to. If you look at chimps, they're basically good creatures who function well within their own "societies." True, they have battles for dominance like we have in politics(except theirs are physical battles), and they have violence between groups("war" if you will). They are very much like humans. I'm sure, however, that they could easily become more "civilized," if brought up in a different environment.

Quote:

But, at the same time Left-Wing inclined people seem to think that certain
political beliefs that stress equality, altruism, and lack of authority, can succeed.



Equality, yes. Altruism, yes. But it's funny you mention lack of authority, since that's what so many libertarians on this board argue for, and it's one of their complaints about us liberals. I certainly don't advocate dictatorship, but I advocate welfare programs and such precisely because I don't trust people to take care of each other well enough without the government redistributing the wealth. I believe many people are selfish, and would not willingly give their money to help those in need.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Anonymous]
    #1314723 - 02/17/03 05:20 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

The question here is, can someone be a decent biologist, and a creationist?

Probably not.


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: Skikid16]
    #1314785 - 02/17/03 05:36 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)


How do you address this problem?


Because humans evolved.

Man has a proclivity for violence, selfishness, and conquest. Evolution has yet to
erase these traits.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: silversoul7]
    #1314880 - 02/17/03 06:05 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)


You are assuming a certain wickedness about wild animals, particularly apes, that surely exists to some extent, but I think you are making more out of it than you really need to. If you look at chimps, they're basically good creatures who function well within their own "societies." True, they have battles for dominance like we have in politics(except theirs are physical battles), and they have violence between groups("war" if you will). They are very much like humans. I'm sure, however, that they could easily become more "civilized," if brought up in a different environment.

We are not talking about how an environment affects something, we are talking
about the nature of things.

I can give an example: There have been many instances of zoo lions(who were
well-fed and had no dangers confronting them) attacking humans. These
lions were in the safest and most tranquil environment possible, yet they still
committed violent acts, which indicates that their nature had something to do
with their aggressive behavior.

Most men are brought up in a civilized environment, and some of them still
commit acts of violence and selfishness. Just like animals, men can't be depended
upon to always act politely or even decently. If men can't be depended upon
to always act altruistically, then how could anarchism or the final stage of
communism work?(That statement is kind of redundant...I covered all of this stuff
in the "Communism" thread).


But, at the same time Left-Wing inclined people seem to think that certain
political beliefs that stress equality, altruism, and lack of authority, can succeed.



Equality, yes. Altruism, yes. But it's funny you mention lack of authority, since that's what so many libertarians on this board argue for, and it's one of their complaints about us liberals.

I never advocated lack of authority. I believe that authority should be lessened
as much as is possible to maintain social order. But, there still needs to be
some authority.


I certainly don't advocate dictatorship, but I advocate welfare programs and such precisely because I don't trust people to take care of each other well enough without the government redistributing the wealth. I believe many people are selfish, and would not willingly give their money to help those in need.

...I dunno.. I can understand your desire to help your fellow Man, but I cannot
shake the bad feeling I get from the idea of taking economic resources away from
people by force and redistributing it to other people who have done nothing to
earn it.

In one paragraph you say that chimps(and I assume you mean humans as well)
could act civilized if they were immersed in the right environment. Yet, in
another paragraph you say that you don't trust people to take care of each
other. Which is it? Is Man capable of attaining utopian Left-wing fantasies, or not?
What is Man's nature? That is the most important question, because Man's
nature dictates how He acts. It doesn't matter what environment He is in, because
His nature will always affect his behavior.

My opinion is that no man is capable of unending and unconditional empathy and
self-sacrifice. The only way that equality can exist is if it is ruthlessly enforced
upon a population that would not be allowed to show dissent.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1314936 - 02/17/03 06:33 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Which is it? Is Man capable of attaining utopian Left-wing fantasies, or not?



I would hardly consider my politics to be utopian. I believe that there is some evil inherent in human nature, and that's why I favor redistribution of wealth, so as to keep the wealthy from becoming too wealthy--hence, too powerful--while also allowing the lower class to do a little catching up. I don't believe there will ever be true equality, and I don't advocate communism or anarchism, only moderate socialism. I believe it is those who believe in trickle-down economics that are utopian in their ideals. Those who think that the poor can survive off of the kindness of the rich are the ones that have their heads in the clouds.


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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: silversoul7]
    #1315009 - 02/17/03 06:51 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)


I don't believe there will ever be true equality

Thank God at least one liberal recognizes this fact.

I believe that there is some evil inherent in human nature, and that's why I favor redistribution of wealth, so as to keep the wealthy from becoming too wealthy--hence, too powerful--while also allowing the lower class to do a little catching up.

and I don't advocate communism or anarchism, only moderate socialism.

To what extent do you think socialism should exist?

Moderate(and I mean very moderate) socialism is much more agreeable to me than
communism.

I believe that the aid received by someone from a welfare program should be paid
back.


I believe it is those who believe in trickle-down economics that are utopian in their ideals. Those who think that the poor can survive off of the kindness of the rich are the ones that have their heads in the clouds.

I am of the opinion that the free market causes a high productivity rate. A high
productivity rate means there is a lot of stuff of high quality available to
consumers. Whenever there is a lot of something available, the price goes
down and consumers are better able to afford it. When consumers are
better able to afford something, it becomes easy to obtain and widespread
amongst the population.

I make the argument that there are practically no poor people in America. Sure,
some of us have more money than others, but most Americans have a roof over
their head and food in their stomach. To me, that indicates that Americans have a
high standard of living(even the "poor Americans"). When was the last time
you heard of an American starving to death?


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Creationism and Recommendations [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1315027 - 02/17/03 06:54 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Evolution has yet to erase these traits.

Yes, but evolution has allowed us to develope enough mental capacity to know these actions are wrong.

I guess some people will always resort to violence.

I still don't get what you are getting at. If you are saying human's violent tendencies are a flaw in evolutional theory, I say it is a bigger flaw in Creationism Theory, after all, in creationism theory, weren't humans modeled after God, if so, it seems god has failed, thus showing he is imperfect.


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Edited by Skikid16 (02/17/03 06:57 PM)


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