Home | Community | Message Board



Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: Scales

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator
 Arcade Champion: Skeleton Park, Space Hunter

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,486
Unions
    #1312651 - 02/16/03 08:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

My thoughts on Unions has fluzated a lot of recent since I started my job. 3 attempts I know of have happened(1 in progress) to unionise.
I talk to my friend who works for a union and wonder how you can stay sane with some of the shit people get away with. But the crap that has been happening here makes me feel it's a necessary evil. So what are your thoughts and experiences with Unions?


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: Unions [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1312662 - 02/16/03 08:35 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

In the beginning of the 1900s, unions were 100% necessary. Now, certain unions are, but sometimes union officials can go on power trips. Unions such as United Airline's plane mechanics union are necessary to prevent the massive fucking over of employees. However, unions such as the teachers' union are not only unnecessary, but detrimental to society as a whole.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Unions [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1312688 - 02/16/03 08:57 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I used to belong to a union. As a matter of fact, for a while I was even a shop steward. Unions have done a lot of good in the past, and many still do.

However, as one who espouses freedom consistently, I disagree with the "closed shop" concept. A business owner should be free to hire a) no one but union members, b) a mix of union and non-union members, or c) no one but non-union members. If the business owner decides that he will make union membership a criterion for hiring a new employee, that is his decision and his decision alone for the simple reason that it is his business. In that case, if you want a job at that guy's place, suck it up and join the union, man.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Unions [Re: Phred]
    #1312719 - 02/16/03 09:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Um, Pinky, the whole point of unions is that they are supposed to remove some of the power and control away from business owners.

People who support worker's rights of collective barganing justify this on the grounds that the workers are an integral part of any business, and as such, deserve a piece of the pie.

Not many business owners make union membership compulsory anyways...it's usually the other way around...unless it's a corrupt union that somehow serves the business owner, like the ones you'd no dought be able to point out to me...in some attempt to twist reality around on itself and make a case that unions actually hurt workers, and that workers would be beter off without them, like Walmart does...

carby



--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Unions [Re: Phred]
    #1312729 - 02/16/03 09:28 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I'm astounded at your concept of freedom in that it encompasses total freedom for the 'owner' and total submission for the worker.

Are they not a team? Don't they depend on each other...oh forget all that...what's the right way to treat people? Economic dictatorship? Not for me.


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,723
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Unions [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1312898 - 02/16/03 11:42 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

While they were needed once, that time has passed. The example of the NEA was a good one. (up a few posts)

Here where I live some teachers decided to volunteer their time to coach Little Leauge Baseball played on school ball fields. Union said no. After the stories hit the papers the union realized they were getting a bunch of bad publicity and folded on this issue. It should have never tried to stop people from volunteering anyway. Unions don't know when to quit.

It's too difficult to fire those who are just out for a job where they get paid much for little work. As in all aspects of life, some work hard, some don't. Why should those who don't make the same wage as those who do?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Unions [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1313092 - 02/17/03 03:17 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

carbonhoots writes:

Um, Pinky, the whole point of unions is that they are supposed to remove some of the power and control away from business owners.

Not so. The whole point of unions is to prevent individual employees from offering their services for less than the majority deems correct, thus undermining the chance of the majority to hold out for a higher price for their services.

People who support worker's rights of collective barganing justify this on the grounds that the workers are an integral part of any business, and as such, deserve a piece of the pie.

Of course they are an integral part. What's your point? Owners are also an integral part -- THE integral part, since without an owner willing to set up the business in the first place, there IS no business. Buildings, machinery, transportation and raw materials are also integral parts of a business. The providers of each of those components naturally try to persuade the business owner to pay the highest possible price for them, just as the employees (unionized or not) try to persuade the owner to pay the highest possible price for their services. All of the providers get a "slice of the pie".

...in some attempt to twist reality around on itself and make a case that unions actually hurt workers, and that workers would be beter off without them...

I repeat, I have no objection to the concept of unions per se. There are corrupt and shitty unions, just as there are corrupt and shitty business owners, but the concept of unionization in and of itself is not a bad one. The concept of the "closed shop", or COMPULSORY unionization, however, is a different story.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Unions [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1313107 - 02/17/03 03:31 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

carbonhoots writes:

I'm astounded at your concept of freedom in that it encompasses total freedom for the 'owner' and total submission for the worker.

You've never been a union member, have you? Or tried to get a job in a closed shop or a closed industry, obviously. There is precious little freedom involved in unionized industries, believe me. Not only must you persuade an employer to hire you, you must first persuade the union to accept you as a member -- something that is in many cases more difficult to accomplish than actually landing the job.

As for your "total submission" view of the employer-employee relationship, you have obviously been working in the wrong places. The non-unionized companies I have worked for were superior in every way to the unionized job I held. I (and most of my staff) were almost continuously being courted by competitors anxious to show how much better they would treat us than our current employer. In a very real sense the success of those businesses was limited only by the quantity of high-caliber employees they could find. None of us ever felt we were "submitting" in any way.

"what's the right way to treat people?"

As a trader, trading value for value.

"Economic dictatorship?"

What "dictatorship"? There is no dictatorship, economic or otherwise, in a relationship where one individual trades goods or services voluntarily with another for a mutually agreed-upon price. Dictatorship can only exist once force comes into play. No one is forcing you to choose employment in a union shop, a non-union shop, or any shop at all. If you feel more comfortable working in a union shop, I wish you all the best in finding employment in one. Seriously -- I am not being facetious here.

pinky


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Unions [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1313110 - 02/17/03 03:36 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I've never supported Unions. There was a time when they were not only effective but efficient as well. That was at the beginning to the mid 20th century. Today it is a haven for those that accept the mediocre and are willing to apease the lowest common denomonator. I work with unions everyday and what i see is a refusal to better themselves. There are many within the unions that are hard workers and are at times looked down on because they are raising the bar for the others that don't want to work. Unions are too closly linked with political activists and the democratic party.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Unions [Re: sir tripsalot]
    #1313247 - 02/17/03 06:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

With the working man's standard of living dropping all the time and it now looking increasingly likely many people will have to work until we are 90 just to have enough to retire on, unions are needed more than ever. The right wing knows this very well, which is why the're so ferocious in their determination and legislation against them.

Especially in the third world where forming a union in corporate owned factories is as good a way of getting yourself murdered as any.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGabbaDj
BTH
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 19,448
Loc: By The Lake
Re: Unions [Re: Xlea321]
    #1313256 - 02/17/03 06:20 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I have been a UCFW Local 770 Member for 8 years now and I gota tell you that its just simply not worth it.

I am forced to be a union member if I want to keep my job, I am forced to pay them almost $40 a month for their shitty benefits and on top of it I pay the company I work for seperate for their retirement benefits. If I had a choice I would drop the union and go with company benefits which cost less and are better but I dont have any choics. If I want to keep working I MUST be union.

Unions say that they raise standards across the board but I see them directly lowering them. Union policy of seniority has been putting worthless pices of shit into positions of power for decades while those who are 100 times more qualified and much harder working get passed up for promotions simply because they have been their a few years less.

Unions hinder company progress. Wal-Mart has made it where it is today because they are Non-Union. They dont need to listen to any outside agentcies on how to run their business and they can pay their employees what the local government deems fair, not what a greedy union deems fair. Its sad but Unions fight to get more money for their people at the cost of the company they work for, createing slow company growth and poor working conditions and on top of it all every raise the Union gets for employees, they raise the amount of the monthly due which gets taken directly out of the employees check after taxes..

Unions SUCK.


--------------------
GabbaDj

FAMM.ORG          C8.com                    http://www.beatsopjefiets.com/   


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Unions [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1313263 - 02/17/03 06:30 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

There can be problems with unions but there really is no alternative. Sure, the situation in america is different because the unions already fought, in the face of brutal oppression, to get you decent working conditions and pay. Without them we would still be working 17 hours a day along with our children. The corporations didn't just wake up one day and give people decent working conditions. It took immense struggle from many brave men and unions were a key feature of it.

Without unions you have what's happening in the third world known as the "race to the bottom" where the corporations try and make the working conditions as hellish as possible to boost their own profits. So sure, there are things about unions that might not work, but lets be thankful for them.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesir tripsalot
Administrator
 Arcade Champion: Skeleton Park, Space Hunter

Registered: 07/10/99
Posts: 6,486
Re: Unions [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1314506 - 02/17/03 03:52 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Like I said unions are notorious for shitty workers and overpayed assholes. BUT, since our Decembers Christmas party where they annonunced the company was making record numbers it has gone downhill big time for us employess.
My boss and her assistant were creatively terminated, they are managers of the fitness department and by the end of it were offered jobs as lifeguards or custodians. So we get all pulled into a meeting telling us our hours our cut in half. I said it then that from a business standpoint sure they are gonna save money but they are doing it all wrong(they admitted it too). They tell us they are "streamlining" the pay scale, what's that mean? Make it easier on the company by lowering your pay and standardizing it( for those without thesaurus, Sodomy and Streamline aren't listed together).
The managers are all getting big fat salaries to shut their mouths and convince everybody we will go under if a union comes in. They get pizza for us if we are reall good :tongue:
There are 3 departments 15% fitness 15%front desk and 70% lifeguards, we are all at their mercy and these managers are pumping lifeguards full of lies and scaring them into voting "no". During the meetings with the older instructors who have been in the workworld longer the pay cuts came up. Management says "we just want to move forward!'" countered with"what part of moving forward includes my pay being reduced?". SO some cunt of a lifeguard chimes in " we Just want to move on!". Easy for her to say, she has obviously been promised something.

Anyways my point is, how can they expect us to curl up in the fetal position and hope everything turns out dandy? Fuck no we are gonna do what we can to protect ourselves from more greedy behaviour. If you say "well it's his business" I say you shoulda told me 2 years ago that if this company does REAL good that my pay would be cut back. I wanna get the union put in place then quit just to spite them, that's what I want for them and I didnt feel this way before.


--------------------

"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Unions [Re: Phred]
    #1314693 - 02/17/03 05:09 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I just read a book by Barry Goldwater called "The Conscience of a Conservative".
It's old(written in the late 50's), but it has some interesting views on unions.

He criticizes the fact the a company is not allowed to have a monopoly over
a certain market, but a union is allowed to have a monopoly over the labor
activities of an entire industry(not that he is advocating monopolies, but he is
critical of an organization(a huge union) having such power, because he
was a firm believer that too much centralized power leads to corruption).
Goldwater thought that union activities would be best confined to individual
employers. He also said that he disagreed with the political power of unions
(and corporations as well). He also thought that it was wrong that an individual
had to pay dues to an organization that might engage in political activities that
the union member did not agree with.

Anyway, it's a quick little read, and it is a tad bit dated, but was worth going
through.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Unions [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1314705 - 02/17/03 05:14 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)


I'm astounded at your concept of freedom in that it encompasses total freedom for the 'owner' and total submission for the worker.

I believe in the free market. "Total submission" is non-existent because the
worker is free to leave if the environment is not to his liking.

It is my experience that whenever someone or something gains a lot of
power, they tend to misuse it at times. This idea applies to unions, corporations,
individuals, and governments.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Unions [Re: Xlea321]
    #1314743 - 02/17/03 05:27 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)


With the working man's standard of living dropping all the time and it now looking
increasingly likely many people will have to work until we are 90 just to have
enough to retire on

This constantly harped upon "plight of the working man" is not accurate.
People are finding it harder to make it by because they now consume so
much more than they ever did. People are no longer content with owning a one
room shack and living to the age of forty. They need to have three cars, a huge
house, many years in retirement(when they are producing nothing), and a
swimming pool. Nobody is shafting the working man....he is doing that to himself.

The fact of the matter is that in my country(America), most everybody lives
under a roof, has enough food(there are tons of fat people in America), and
has a TV. We live like kings and I don't understand why we complain.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Unions [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1315090 - 02/17/03 07:09 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Goldwater thought that union activities would be best confined to individual

I'm sure a rabid right-winger like Goldwater would. Of course an "individual" who raises a problem at work has one big problem. He gets sacked.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Unions [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #1315110 - 02/17/03 07:15 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

They need to have three cars

Nah, poverty is on the increase. The retirement age in the UK was 65 - that's now rapidly being changed and people are going to have to work even longer just to survive. Capitalist freedom - working till the day you die just to be able to eat. What a way to live.

Nobody is shafting the working man....he is doing that to himself

He's driving down his own standard of living and paying himself less and less? Boss's pay rises have skyrocketed whilst the working mans has slowed to a halt.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Unions [Re: Xlea321]
    #1315221 - 02/17/03 07:45 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)


Goldwater thought that union activities would be best confined to individual


I'm sure a rabid right-winger like Goldwater would. Of course an "individual" who raises a problem at work has one big problem. He gets sacked.

You misunderstood me. He was advocating that unions should be confined to
individual employers. i.e. one union for the workers of General Electric. one
union for the workers of United Airlines. When a union is allowed to grow huge
(such as unions that encompass entire industries) they become powerful.
When an organization gains power, it sometimes misuses it. Unions do some
good things, but they also have some blatant weaknesses. For example, driving
up wages to such high levels that companies cannot remain competitive. That is
what killed the steel industry in my state (Pennsylvania). Those steel workers
made high hourly wages, but what the hell is the point of an excessively high
hourly wage when your company will go bankrupt because of it and you will be
out of a job?

He also said that compulsory union membership was wrong(I agree with him).
Why should a person be forced to join a union organization in order to get a job?
What if the union supports political activities that the prospective worker happens
to disagree with? Compulsory union membership is an infringement upon a
worker's freedom of choice.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Unions [Re: Xlea321]
    #1315273 - 02/17/03 08:07 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)


They need to have three cars


Nah, poverty is on the increase. The retirement age in the UK was 65 - that's now rapidly being changed and people are going to have to work even longer just to survive.

It matters what your concept of poverty is. In America, the people on the
"bottom" are not poor! How many times do I have to stress that the lower class in
modern, democratic, and capitalist countries has access to ample food, shelter,
and opportunity. That is more than any communist country ever provided to its
citizens.

People are working more and more because they keep consuming more and more.

Capitalist freedom - working till the day you die just to be able to eat. What a way to live.

Communist freedom - living under an economic dictatorship where everything is
taken away from you by force and you are not able to strive for anything except a
forced and homogenized equality....What a way to live, comrades!


Nobody is shafting the working man....he is doing that to himself


He's driving down his own standard of living and paying himself less and less?

The "working man" keeps demanding more and more products, services, and
comfort, and then he bitches about how expensive it all is. Modern day people
insist upon having appliances, utilities, health care, lots of clothes, a vehicle, and
tons of other crap. This stuff doesn't grow on trees. It takes a large amount
of human effort to manufacture and distribute this stuff. If you want something,
you have to pay for it.

Poor people seem to have no problem buying TV's, playing the lottery, and
spending their money on stupid unnecessary shit, but then they bitch that they
don't have enough money.

Compared to 95% of the people throughout this world, the "poor" people in
America and the UK(or any modern capitalist democracy) live like kings.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: Scales

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Deficits at Home, Welfare Abroad lonestar2004 248 0 11/07/05 11:37 AM
by lonestar2004
* State of the Union address 1992 - hypocrisy/dishonesty 2004 Xochitl 718 7 04/30/04 01:00 AM
by silversoul7
* A few "welfare" myths
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
Xlea321 7,712 177 07/30/03 07:19 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Top 10 Corporate Welfare Queens lonestar2004 888 7 07/25/06 01:13 PM
by Silversoul
* Millionaire Offers $100,000 For Scientific Proof WTC Towers Collapsed As Bush Administration Claims
( 1 2 all )
ekomstop 3,041 37 12/16/04 10:29 PM
by ekomstop
* Wal-Mart to close unionized Quebec store
( 1 2 all )
RandalFlagg
1,940 23 02/12/05 02:53 AM
by juende
* If libertarians/conservatives believe govt welfare leads to dependency
( 1 2 3 all )
Tao 2,413 52 12/09/04 10:56 PM
by nycomyco
* General Welfare
( 1 2 3 all )
luvdemshrooms 1,785 45 12/14/03 05:37 PM
by luvdemshrooms

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
1,113 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 8 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
High Mountain Compost
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.106 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 16 queries.