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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1325974 - 02/22/03 07:24 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

All the UN experts who actually conducted the studies and wrote the reports quoted no such figure

Yes they do. When Dennis Halliday quoted reports stating 4-6000 children dying every month was most likely an low estimate you insisted he must be lying. The guy who ran the Iraq oil for food programme and knows more about Iraq than you ever will says 4-6000 kids are dying every month thanks to sanctions. If it's a choice between you and the UN expert, I go with Dennis every time.

The fact remains that it is foolish to insist that just because past administrations (of any country) were friendly towards Hussein current administrations (of any country) must also be.

It certainly means you can't take any moral arguments about "freeing the iraqi people from tyranny" seriously. Clearly Bush's posturing can be completly disregarded with this knowledge.

If military action had not been threatened against Hussein, would he have allowed them to re-enter the country?

If the US hadn't infiltrated the group with CIA spies would they still be in Iraq? Certainly.

You're wasting an awful lot of bandwidth with those questions!


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1326042 - 02/22/03 08:13 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

You're wasting an awful lot of bandwidth with those questions!



Come on Alex, do you lack the brains and honesty to answer a few strait forward questions? What are you afraid of, of looking like a fool? (that was rhetorical, we all know the answer, your bravery in this area is unmatched in human history) Are you worried that you may be caught in another lie later on down the line? Or is it that it just requires too much genuine thought which you're not used to engaging in. What's wrong, does Noam Chupmsky or Karla Marx not have the answers in one of their little red books?

As Pinky said, we're still awaiting your answers to these questions, Alex:

1) Do you agree with the UN decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait by force in 1991?
Yes _______
No ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?
Yes _______
No ________
Additional comments ______________________________________

3) If Hussein continues to ignore the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement should the UN continue to do nothing more than file more condemnatory resolutions?
Yes _______
No________

3 a) If you answered "no", what other actions should the UN take instead of or in addition to filing more resolutions?
i) _____________________________
ii) ____________________________
iii)____________________________

4) If the UN supports this proposed military action the way they supported the Gulf War, would you still oppose military intervention in Iraq?
Yes________
No_________
Additional comments ________________________

5) Rank the following possibilities to the resolution of the Iraq situation from best option (1) to second best (2), to third best (3), etc. Feel free to add as many more options of your own as you wish, including them (of course) in the ranking.

( ) -- Hussein resigns voluntarily, free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is overthrown (or assassinated) by internal Iraqi agents, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, and continues as Ultimate Leader of Iraq.

( ) -- Hussein is captured (or assassinated) by a "SWAT team" of agents of a foreign power, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a UN-backed military invasion of Iraq, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a military invasion of Iraq that has no UN approval, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, with the additional proviso that Hussein resign and free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and no one takes any further action apart from filing resolutions condemning Iraq, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- Alex123 proposal A

( ) -- Alex123 proposal B

( ) -- Alex123 proposal C


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Evolving]
    #1326046 - 02/22/03 08:15 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Why do you even bother? You know he's never going to answer those questions.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1326097 - 02/22/03 08:59 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Yes they do. When Dennis Halliday quoted reports...

When Halliday misquoted the reports, you mean.

Clearly Bush's posturing can be completly disregarded with this knowledge.

Your argument is that because the Reagan administration did bad things, all subsequent administrations must rigidly follow the same course. How very open-minded of you.

Answer the questions, oh ye who knows all.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: silversoul7]
    #1326156 - 02/22/03 09:38 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Why do you even bother? You know he's never going to answer those questions.




do you think he should? or at least post a link to stats?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Evolving]
    #1326161 - 02/22/03 09:40 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I hope you dont mind if I provide my answers to your little questionaire.

1) Do you agree with the UN decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait by force in 1991?

Yes

Sadly the US foreign ambassador to Iraq had told the Iraqi's that the US had no interests in the conflict. The international community was also fully aware that the Iraqi's were planning the attack but no diplomatic efforts were made prior to the attack to prevent it. So I agree with the policy but not the underlying reasons behind it. I believe the Iraqis were manipulated into a posisition where they could be turned into the great enemy they have supposedly become.

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?

Yes

Once again though I disagree with the reasoning behind it. I believe the policy of sanctions against Iraq and the imosing of inspections were sufficient punishments for the crime of attacking Kuwait. Bearing in mind that the Kuwaitis were stealing Iraqi oil by slant drilling the shared oil fields I think the reasons behind the invasion were not altogether evil. I would be interested to know how Western nations would react in such a situation. I also do not believe we have the right to remove dictators at will. Especially when we have actively supported these regimes for many years. I think the reason Bush did not finish the job was because it was easier to cripple the country with sanctions and wait until the time which was most suitable for the exploitation of the Iraqi oil. Now, when the Saudis are beginning to choose to deal in Euros in the oil markets that time has arrived. If the US and the UK get their way I will be very surprised if the Iraqi oil is bought and sold in Euros. I gauruntee it will be dollars.

3) If Hussein continues to ignore the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement should the UN continue to do nothing more than file more condemnatory resolutions?

The UN through the crippling sanctions regime and also through inspections is not simply filing more resolutions. I take it you are also implying that the WMD programs the iraqis are supposedly following are the main point of non compliance to the agreement? I would firstly like to see real evidence of that before the UN decides upon another course of action. If you can point me to some evidence I would be grateful.

3 a) If you answered "no", what other actions should the UN take instead of or in addition to filing more resolutions?

See above.

4) If the UN supports this proposed military action the way they supported the Gulf War, would you still oppose military intervention in Iraq?

Yes

You cannot compare what is happening now with the original Gulf war. At that time the UN, rightly or wrongly, was coming to the defence of a nation under attack. This is key because when the UN was setup it was made explicit that it was not to be used as a means of attack, only defence. To attack Iraq now would ignore
that basic tenet of UN policy. Iraq may been in breach of treaty but that was never to be considered just cause for mass murder by the UN.

To give a short answer to the very impressive list of options you have given which although extensive are very leading,I would say that I would propose a much stronger inspection regime, the lifting of sanctions to allow the Iraqi people a chance to rebuild their lives and a close look at the other middle eastern states whose records in Human rights are equally appaling as Iraqs and who are also in possesion of WMD and have strong links with various terrorist groups.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1326271 - 02/22/03 11:06 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

When Halliday misquoted the reports, you mean.

Lets just say I trust the guy who ran the oil for food programme in Iraq a little more than you pink. You've done a 2 minute google search. He worked in the area for years. Who do you think knows the most?

Your argument is that because the Reagan administration did bad things, all subsequent administrations must rigidly follow the same course

No, the US still supports many savage regimes, indeed Turkey has a terrifying human rights abuse record. If you truly believe Dubya Bush is going into Iraq to liberate the poor downtrodden then by your logic we can expect an invasion of Turkey shortly afterwards.

Lets wait and see if you are right or wrong.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Evolving]
    #1326273 - 02/22/03 11:07 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Hell everyone else is doing, why not me? Lets really waste some more bandwidth!

1) Do you agree with the UN decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait by force in 1991?
Yes _______
No ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?
Yes _______
No ________
Additional comments ______________________________________

3) If Hussein continues to ignore the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement should the UN continue to do nothing more than file more condemnatory resolutions?
Yes _______
No________

3 a) If you answered "no", what other actions should the UN take instead of or in addition to filing more resolutions?
i) _____________________________
ii) ____________________________
iii)____________________________

4) If the UN supports this proposed military action the way they supported the Gulf War, would you still oppose military intervention in Iraq?
Yes________
No_________
Additional comments ________________________

5) Rank the following possibilities to the resolution of the Iraq situation from best option (1) to second best (2), to third best (3), etc. Feel free to add as many more options of your own as you wish, including them (of course) in the ranking.

( ) -- Hussein resigns voluntarily, free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is overthrown (or assassinated) by internal Iraqi agents, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, and continues as Ultimate Leader of Iraq.

( ) -- Hussein is captured (or assassinated) by a "SWAT team" of agents of a foreign power, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a UN-backed military invasion of Iraq, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a military invasion of Iraq that has no UN approval, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, with the additional proviso that Hussein resign and free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and no one takes any further action apart from filing resolutions condemning Iraq, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- Alex123 proposal A

( ) -- Alex123 proposal B

( ) -- Alex123 proposal C




--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1326408 - 02/22/03 12:21 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

No answers.  Well, I'm sure you are unable to come up with intelligent responses like GazzBut, it is out of character and much too difficult... like expecting a baboon to talk.  We wouldn't want you to work your brain too hard, you might strain it and get an aneurysm. :grin: 


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (02/22/03 12:22 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Evolving]
    #1326504 - 02/22/03 01:17 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

wouldn't want you to work your brain too hard



Brain? You assume too much... :smirk:


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Evolving]
    #1326830 - 02/22/03 04:11 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

The only thing left in Alpo's head is the shit that seeped in through his ears while his head was up his ass.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineRonoS
DSYSB since '01
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/26/01
Posts: 16,259
Loc: Calgary, Alberta
Last seen: 8 months, 12 days
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1326871 - 02/22/03 04:44 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Keep it civil kids...this is the political forum. Not a message board for Alex insults...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Evolving]
    #1327275 - 02/22/03 09:15 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

No answers

Do you really expect me to frame my responses according to how a bunch of George Bush fanatics like yourself think I should?

Sorry pal, it ain't gonna happen. I'll respond the way i want to.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1327277 - 02/22/03 09:17 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Lets just say I trust the guy who ran the oil for food programme in Iraq a little more than you pink.

And I trust the UNICEF field workers who actually gathered the data, analyzed it, and wrote the reports more than I trust the guy who ran the oil for food program.

You've done a 2 minute google search.

In actual fact, it took a little more than two minutes to find the report (the UN website is not the easiest to navigate), but not a lot more. You, on the other hand, have spent no time whatsoever actually reading the report, because it contradicts your preconceived notion of reality.

He worked in the area for years.

They have been working in the area far longer than Halliday -- from before sanctions were imposed, in fact. And they are still working in the area -- unlike Halliday.

Who do you think knows the most?

The UNICEF field workers who actually gathered the data, analyzed it, and wrote the reports.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1327308 - 02/22/03 09:28 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Do you really expect me to frame my responses according to how a bunch of George Bush fanatics like yourself think I should?

I would have no objection to you answering them in the same manner skikid or GazzBut chose to. Neither skikid nor GazzBut are George Bush fanatics.

You will notice that I have provided a space for comments in the likely event you feel a simple yes or no answer is insufficient, and invited you to provide as many of your own options to question 5 as you wish if you feel none of the pre-written options accurately describe your preferred solutions. GazzBut took that route, and no one criticized him for doing so.

I'll respond the way i want to.

When? Once the war is over? That is your standard tactic -- never state your position, instead criticize whatever America has done.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1327311 - 02/22/03 09:29 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

And I trust the UNICEF field workers who actually gathered the data, analyzed it, and wrote the reports more than I trust the guy who ran the oil for food program

The same reports Halliday quotes from?

You, on the other hand, have spent no time whatsoever actually reading the report, because it contradicts your preconceived notion of reality

Not my version. The director of the UN oil for food programme's version.

The UNICEF field workers who actually gathered the data, analyzed it, and wrote the reports.

The same reports that say 4000-6000 children are dying every month.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1327329 - 02/22/03 09:33 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I would have no objection to you answering them in the same manner skikid or GazzBut chose to

Pink, this isn't your little dictatorship. Do you agree people should have the freedom to respond the way they choose to? Or only in the question and answer manner you want them to? What if your questions are nonsensical?

When? Once the war is over?

No, I'll respond like I've been doing, am doing and will carry on doing.

never state your position

I've stated my position many times. Just not in the way you think I should.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1327482 - 02/22/03 10:46 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

The same reports Halliday quotes from?

I have no idea what "reports" Halliday "quoted" from. They certainly weren't any reports which appear anywhere on the internet which are detectable by Google, Lycos, Yahoo, or HotBot.

Not my version. The director of the UN oil for food programme's version.

Ah. So despite your repeated criticisms of others here whom you characterize as "brainwashed" for accepting uncritically what others tell them, you yourself have no difficulty doing exactly that. Sort of like the history masters who told you the English Empire was once 3/4 of the planet and the auto "safety" expert who told you the best safety measure for a vehicle is a one foot spike sticking out from the steering wheel.

The same reports that say 4000-6000 children are dying every month.

You still haven't read the reports, despite my providing them five times so far. If you had, you would know that the UN-imposed sanctions are not responsible for the deaths of 4,000 - 6,000 Iraqi children per month.

I have no doubt that thousands of children are dying every month in Iraq. Thousands of children are dying every month in lots of countries. The point is (as you would know if you took the time to read the reports) not all of those deaths are attributable to the effects of the UN-imposed sanctions on Iraq. The point is (as you would know if you took the time to read the reports) that in some regions of Iraq, the infant mortality rate has actually decreased since the UN imposed these sanctions.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1327491 - 02/22/03 10:53 PM (19 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Do you agree people should have the freedom to respond the way they choose to?

Of course! I also agree that readers should draw their own conclusions about how others respond (or in your case, don't respond) to legitimate, unbiased questions.

What if your questions are nonsensical?

Which questions on that list are nonsensical?

No, I'll respond like I've been doing, am doing and will carry on doing.

If you choose to call a non-response a response, I gladly leave it to the readers of this thread to draw whatever conclusions they feel appropriate.

I've stated my position many times.

No you haven't. Link, please?

pinky





--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1327831 - 02/23/03 02:45 AM (19 years, 3 months ago)

I have no idea what "reports" Halliday "quoted" from.

UN and UNICEF reports as recently as 2001.

So despite your repeated criticisms of others here whom you characterize as "brainwashed" for accepting uncritically what others tell them, you yourself have no difficulty doing exactly that

And I'm supposed to trust you I suppose? The UN and UNICEF reports extensively quoted by Halliday show 4000-6000 kids a month dying every month as a result of sanctions. Halliday himself considers this a conservative figure. Once again, the head of the UN oil for food programme has more knowledge and information than you ever will from a 2 minute google search.

You still haven't read the reports, despite my providing them five times so far.

You hadn't even heard of the 2001 report when i quoted it. Your knowledge is useless.

If you had, you would know that the UN-imposed sanctions are not responsible for the deaths of 4,000 - 6,000 Iraqi children per month.

Unfortunately both UNICEF and UN experts say they're are 4000-6000 kids dying every month thanks to sanctions.

not all of those deaths are attributable to the effects of the UN-imposed sanctions on Iraq.

Halliday considers 4000-6000 to be an underestimate. Tell me something, why do you think he resigned in disgust at the genocidal sanctions and said 6000 kids were dying every month? Did he just do it to annoy you?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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