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OfflineBowlKiller
----
Registered: 09/22/02
Posts: 757
Last seen: 19 years, 6 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1333880 - 02/25/03 07:41 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I take mushrooms.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1336334 - 02/25/03 10:25 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

How difficult is it to interpret the UNICEF report stating in clear terms half a million kids are dead that wouldn't have been dead if sanctions wern't in place?

The reports stated no such thing. Rather, the authors of the report went to considerable effort to state in clear terms that

"Given the difficulty of accurately and specifically attributing the cause of death of a child to sanctions, any such figure that may be derived would certainly be questionable."

Observe the precision of their language -- this was not a casual statement. Words such as "accurately" and "specifically" have well-defined and commonly accepted meanings. When they used the phrase "any such figure", they did so deliberately. They pointed out that such figures would have to be "derived", not merely "copied" or "quoted", because they themselves quote no such figures. And finally, they use the word "questionable". Those who composed that statement were doing everything they could think of to get their point across.

It is hard to imagine a more thorough, complete, and unambiguous warning against misrepresentation of their work, especially when that sentence is coupled with the preceding one, "These surveys were never intended to provide an absolute figure of how many children have died in Iraq as a result of sanctions." Yet that is precisely what Halliday claims they were intended to do.

It's easy to deceive yourself with child mortality statistics you have no knowledge about.

Agreed. Those who conducted the surveys and wrote the reports are well aware of that, which is why they went to the trouble of warning in no uncertain terms against doing exactly that. Halliday has chosen to ignore their warnings and deceive himself. I have chosen not to. If you (and Halliday and his ilk) choose to continue contradicting what the people who know more about the infant mortality rates in Iraq since 1984 than anyone else on the planet have to say on their area of expertise, you are of course free to do so. Just don't expect anyone with basic reading comprehension skills to do the same.

Your idea that Saddam was confiscating medical supplies for example is utter nonsense.

It is? Hmmm... then I wonder why the infant mortality rate in some areas of Iraq dropped after sanctions were imposed?

It really does need people with knowledge of what is happening on the ground.

Like the selfless people who actually go out into the countryside and gather data directly from the people being studied, as opposed to suits with well-paying jobs who shuffle purchase orders, requisitions, and shipping documents in an air conditioned office? Agreed.

Are Dennis Halliday and Hans Von Spooneck BOTH liars with reading comprehension problems?

Dennis and Hans, for reasons unknown to me, have clearly chosen to...

Oh, wait... before I answer a new question, please answer these old ones:

1) Do you agree with the UN decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait by force in 1991?
Yes _______
No ________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

2) Do you agree with their decision to leave Hussein in power in 1991 rather than eliminating him when they had the chance?
Yes _______
No ________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

3) If Hussein continues to ignore the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement should the UN continue to do nothing more than file more condemnatory resolutions?
Yes _______
No________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________

3 a) If you answered "no", what other actions should the UN take instead of or in addition to filing more resolutions?
i) _____________________________
ii) ____________________________
iii)____________________________

4) If the UN supports this proposed military action the way they supported the Gulf War, would you still oppose military intervention in Iraq?
Yes________
No_________
I choose not to answer this question because it is nonsensical ________
Additional comments ____________________________________

5) Rank the following possibilities to the resolution of the Iraq situation from best option (1) to second best (2), to third best (3), etc. Feel free to add as many more options of your own as you wish, including them (of course) in the ranking.

( ) -- Hussein resigns voluntarily, free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is overthrown (or assassinated) by internal Iraqi agents, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, and continues as Ultimate Leader of Iraq.

( ) -- Hussein is captured (or assassinated) by a "SWAT team" of agents of a foreign power, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a UN-backed military invasion of Iraq, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- Hussein is captured or killed by a military invasion of Iraq that has no UN approval, free elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, with the additional proviso that Hussein resign and free democratic elections in Iraq are held.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq on the condition that Iraq fulfills all the terms of the 1991 surrender agreement, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and arranges loans large enough to rebuild Iraq, Hussein remains in power. (kudos to Gazzbut for suggesting this option)

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, imposes a stronger inspection regime, and investigates other countries known to possess WMD and violate human rights. Hussein remains in power. (kudos to Gazzbut for suggesting this option)

( ) -- The UN lifts all sanctions, and no one takes any further action apart from filing resolutions condemning Iraq, Hussein remains in power.

( ) -- Alex123 proposal A

( ) -- Alex123 proposal B

( ) -- Alex123 proposal C

( ) -- I choose not to rank the above because they are nonsensical, and I won't provide any options of my own.

Thank you.

pinky


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1336360 - 02/25/03 10:53 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

i wouldn't answer any of his questions until he answers at least one of yours.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1336606 - 02/26/03 03:02 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"Lets just stick to something concrete. There isn't a word I've said on the sanctions that hasn't been said by the UN head of the oil for food programme Dennis Halliday and many others. Including the two other UN experts who resigned in disgust at the "genocide of the sanctions" "

Hey, I agree with you that the sanctions and the bombings are doing a hell of a lot more harm than good.

I've personally debated with you on issues where you claimed to have information, and refused to back it up.

"I made up the contras did i? I made up american inteference in South america? That's all a fabrication is it?"

I didn't say every single thing you brought up was a fabrication. You had a list a while back of "installed dictators", only a couple of which could have matched that description.

"I presume you think Dennis Halliday is a liar and america has never funded groups like the contras. That's fine - you believe that."

Fuck. No, I don't believe that. Again, you're fabricating things. I know they funded the contras. Have you ever read any of my posts? Generally, we're arguing from the same point of view.

"Do i believe that the US has funded the contras and installed and kept a host of brutal dictators in power? Yes.

Do I believe that the UN head of the oil for food programme knows what he's talking about? Yes.

There's really nothing more to it than that. Feel free to disagree. I won't hate you if you do. You are a complete stranger on a shroom board - do we really have to get angry over something as petty as this?"

This is what you do all the time. I've brought up a valid issue, and you've twisted everything I've said to make it look like I'm asking you completely different questions.

Really, when you're debating something with someone, you should answer the questions they ask you directly. Otherwise, it looks like you're trying to avoid disclosing certain information. Bush is doing this all the time, the dismissal of the protests saying "Not everyone sees Saddam as a threat to world peace" is a fine example of this. That's exactly what you do in some way in every single post.




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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1336699 - 02/26/03 04:00 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I didn't say every single thing

Well you said i do it "all the time". So i'm not doing it on those two times?

You had a list a while back of "installed dictators", only a couple of which could have matched that description.

Which ones? Read up on the history of each name I mentioned. You'll find very heavy CIA involvement in every one. Or are you taking pink on his word?

I know they funded the contras

So, on this my evidence is ok?

This is what you do all the time

Do what man?

Really, when you're debating something with someone, you should answer the questions they ask you directly

I'm here to respond exactly how I want ok? So are you. I'm not here to respond in a way some Bush supporter thinks I should. If you don't like it, that's fine. That's really all there is to it. I wouldn't dream of making up a bunch of idiotic questions and repeat posting them in the hope of forcing someone to answer them. I respect people enough to let them post exactly what they want. I hope I'm not the only one with that view.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1336760 - 02/26/03 04:21 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

I wouldn't dream of making up a bunch of idiotic questions and repeat posting them in the hope of forcing someone to answer them.

Perhaps not. But you seem to have no difficulty asking questions (which have nothing to do with the topic of the thread -- questions about contras, for example) over and over as individual questions rather than neatly gathered in one spot for convenience.

Have you wondered why no one else seems to find the questions idiotic? We know you have no intention of answering the questions, and we all know why you choose not to answer them, but maybe I could persuade you to at least point out which parts of the questions are "idiotic".

Since you prefer not to see them as a list, let's just focus on one for now. Which part of

"Do you agree with the UN decision to expel the Iraqi occupation army from Kuwait by force in 1991?"

do you feel is idiotic?

pinky



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Edited by pinksharkmark (02/26/03 04:23 AM)

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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 7 months, 2 days
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1336818 - 02/26/03 04:36 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

They're all perfectly valid questions showing little bias. Answering them would simply demonstrate that you're able to organize your ideas and thoughts in a well laid out manner. It would also be a great way of having your opponents understand you.

Not answering these questions is not a great act of defiance. If you're too lazy to answer them, just say so.

...one more thing, I'm not a fucking Bush supporter. Don't you dare call me a Bush supporter. The last person to call me a Bush supporter had their regime changed with a swift, pre-emptive strike to the choad. You seem to have absolutely no grasp on what my stance is, let me sum it up for you:

Bush is a fool and a scum bag. He wants to invade Iraq for financial reasons, and so that he can look good. He wants to go down in history as one of the great presidents that fought evil and won a war, and doesn't care one bit that he has to murder thousands of innocent people in the process. War with Iraq would not only be foolish and dangerous, but also the height of hypocrisy.

See? We've pretty much got the same stance. You just choose not to use rational arguments. You fail to realize that the anti-war movement is filled with just as much false information and propaganda as the pro-war movement, and you need to be able to filter out the bullshit. When information you have presented proves to be false, then you have to retract that statement, otherwise you're just being a fool.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1337103 - 02/26/03 07:04 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

But you seem to have no difficulty asking questions

Come on pink. We've just spent 11 pages asking and answering questions. I'm just not interested in spending my life filling in your multiple choice questionaires.

let's just focus on one for now.

Maybe if you'd started doing this in the first place I would have answered pink, but you've made such a big thing of these questions that not answering them is a point of principle now. I'm not interested in being forced to conform to someone elses agenda. Hopefully you can understand that.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phluck]
    #1337143 - 02/26/03 07:20 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Answering them would simply demonstrate that you're able to organize your ideas and thoughts in a well laid out manner.

I passed my exams very successfully many years ago phluck, I can organise my thoughts just fine. If you don't like how i organise my thoughts don't read my posts.

It would also be a great way of having your opponents understand you

Opponents? It's just a bunch of guys talking shit on a drug board. I don't really take it that seriously. I can understand people without listing a dozen multiple choice questions and repeat posting it for months to try and force them to answer.

Not answering these questions is not a great act of defiance.

It's not meant to be. I'll simply respond exactly how i like. WIthout someone else setting the agenda and deciding how I should respond. Is that defiance?

Don't you dare call me a Bush supporter

Calm down man.

See? We've pretty much got the same stance

Cool. To be honest I can't remember you making many posts in this thread stating your position. My only awareness of you was as the guy who makes the odd post calling me names every now and again. I wasn't aware of your position on Iraq until now.

You just choose not to use rational arguments

Hang on a minute, like i said, I havn't said anything in this thread that Dennis Halliday and a host of other experts on Iraq havn't said. You appeared to agree with this in your last post. What points about Iraq have i made that you think are wrong?



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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1337350 - 02/26/03 08:59 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

Maybe if you'd started doing this in the first place I would have answered pink...

Yeah, sure.

Actually, the questions originally WERE asked in the course of the usual evolution of various threads, but as they began to pile up unanswered, it just became easier to gather them all in one place.

not answering them is a point of principle now.

Uh-huh. If you say so.

I'm not interested in being forced...

What force?

...to conform to someone elses agenda.

You might want to think that through again. By not answering perfectly harmless, unbiased, simple to answer questions, you have in fact proven what I set out to demonstrate in the first place.


pinky


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Edited by pinksharkmark (02/26/03 09:00 AM)

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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/08/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1337500 - 02/26/03 09:46 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Reality

de?bate
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, dE-
Function: noun
Date: 13th century
: a contention by words or arguments: as a : the formal discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules of parliamentary procedure b : a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides

In Alex Land

de?bate
Pronunciation: di-'bAt, dE-
Function: noun
Date: 21st century
: a contention by words or one-way argument: as a : the formal one-way discussion of a motion before a deliberative body according to the rules made by Alex123 b : a regulated discussion of a proposition by one side.

he's a rebel after all


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1337536 - 02/26/03 09:59 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Offlineflow
outlaw immortal
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 496
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1337569 - 02/26/03 10:13 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Hang on a minute, like i said, I havn't said anything in this thread that Dennis Halliday and a host of other experts on Iraq havn't said. You appeared to agree with this in your last post. What points about Iraq have i made that you think are wrong?




I see you have stopped trying to argue about the oil for food program. Does this mean you might be wrong????

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1337585 - 02/26/03 10:17 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Excellent.... and accurate.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1338614 - 02/26/03 05:38 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Actually, the questions originally WERE asked in the course of the usual evolution of various threads

No they wern't.

If you say so.

Lets face it pink. I answer your multiple choice questionaires once and you're going to do it in every thread. It's best not to encourage you.

By not answering perfectly harmless, unbiased, simple to answer questions,

That's really not how debate works pink. You don't get one person setting the agenda by asking multiple choice questions and demanding the other person respond by answering them. What do you think would happen in a presidential debate if one of the candidates simply kept trying to force the agenda by repeating his own lists of questions? He'd be laughed out of the studio.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Evolving]
    #1338620 - 02/26/03 05:40 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

As  unbiased as ever I see  :smirk:

Good to see the moderators being big enough to forget personal grudges...


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: flow]
    #1338627 - 02/26/03 05:44 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I see you have stopped trying to argue about the oil for food program

Where have you "seen" this? What have I stopped arguing? If you've been reading you'll find that the guy who ran the oil for food programme resigned in protest at the genocidal sanctions that have killed well over 500,000 children under 5. He also said the oil for food programme was pitiful and essentially of no use to the Iraqi people whatsoever.

That remains my view. Why do you think I "stopped arguing"? Or is this just more "I'm a right-winger and I don't like you" stuff?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleClosetCase
but only inwinter

Registered: 01/22/03
Posts: 295
Loc: Somewhere rubbing my nugs...
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1338693 - 02/26/03 06:19 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

This is in reply to no one...

There's no point in arguing about past arguments. It's a giant waste of time and only serves to feed your ego. People don't learn anything from it. All it does is just show us that you feel you need to protect yourself and feed your self-esteem from putting other people down. Don't be stubborn. Don't fall into the ego trap, you are better than that.


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"as your attourney I advise you to rent a very fast car with no top, and you'll need the cocaine.."

"well.. why not? I mean if anything's worth doing, it's worth doing right. THIS IS THE AMERICAN DREAM IN ACTION"


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Xlea321]
    #1339002 - 02/26/03 09:22 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

pinky -- Actually, the questions originally WERE asked in the course of the usual evolution of various threads

Alex -- No they wern't.

Yes they were. The first question was asked 10/04/02, in the thread titled "Neville's Folly", and arose during a discussion comparing America's response to Hitler's aggression with their response to Hussein's aggression. Originally, the question was framed as a question and a corollary:

"You criticized the US for not declaring war on Germany and instead waiting for Germany to declare war on the US. Do I take it then that you approve of the US decision to liberate Kuwait in 1991? If so, do you DISAPPROVE of their decision not to finish the job back then?"

That question went unanswered the first time it was asked. And the second. And the third. It has remained unaswered every subsequent time it has been asked, despite your recent claim that "Maybe if you'd started doing this in the first place I would have answered."

That's really not how debate works pink.

It has been established that whatever it is you do here, it is not debate.

pinky


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 4 months, 23 days
Re: Bomb Saddam! Free Iraq!! [Re: Phred]
    #1339152 - 02/27/03 12:24 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You may have asked one of these questions elsewhere but dont pretend you had asked them all independently of each other before they were gathered into your questionaire as that is a blatant lie.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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