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Offlinethe spiral
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the spiral's modified monotub w/convective FAE tek
    #13098328 - 08/25/10 12:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Removing this post; housecleaning and general security reasons.
PM me if you'd like any info.


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

Edited by the spiral (09/29/10 06:18 AM)

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Offlinesqueeg
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13098339 - 08/25/10 12:49 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Just thinking out loud, but I tend to think that a CFL is unlikely to get warm enough to encourage convection. Not sure though...


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: squeeg]
    #13098382 - 08/25/10 01:08 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

From experience, the CFL significantly increased the temperature of both the outside (to the touch) and the inside (the air was VERY warm) of the tub(s) when left on continuously for 12 hours.  The heating was of a magnitude that worried me to the point of changing my timer to 30 mins/hour instead of continuous , in order to allow time for the air in the tub to cool.

Since a monotub is such an enclosed space, even a small CFL can make a significant amount of heat.

I've noted in my reading that the best results seem to occur, with tubs anyway, when someone has enough room to put a fan nearby their tubs.  For many of us, this is not practical.  If indeed this method works equally (or if not equally than significantly as) well as a fan, then individuals with limited space (and people concerned with "stealth") have a powerful new option here.

Edit: I'm considering placing a hygrometer in one of my tubs, just to see what the average rH is (and whether it changes significantly between the part of the day with the light on and the part of the day with the light off.)  It'd be best if I could compare to a tub with an external ilght, but as this method has been working so well, I don't see a need and I"m not exactly drowning in room.  I'm simply curious as to how the humidity is affected.  I'm also curious as to how the various concentrations of gases in the air in the tub change throughout the day (%CO2, %O2, %N2, %H2O) relative to ambient.  I cannot think of an inexpensive way to keep track of that, though.


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

Edited by the spiral (08/25/10 05:25 AM)

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OfflineEkyldog
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13104472 - 08/26/10 09:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Very nice tek, it seems like an amazing setup.  I'm thinking about trying it myself for my next project.

I'm new to the hobby, just working on my first project now, standard PF Tek with 6 cakes colonizing (3 PF, 3 GT).  Once that project is rolling -- fingers crossed -- and I have a little experience I think I'll try your monotub tek.

Do you think it would work to use PF cakes as spawn instead of colonized popcorn?  Still working on acquiring a pressure cooker.


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OfflineDrasman123
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Ekyldog]
    #13104542 - 08/26/10 09:38 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That is a beautiful tek, and I love your ecuador picture, how much did it  weigh dry?

:mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2::mushroom2:


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Invisibleprismism
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Drasman123]
    #13104588 - 08/26/10 09:55 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Where's the tek? It's no new discovery that monotubs are set and forget. Plus, I wouldn't go around suggesting that you should use h202 as a means of pasteurizing or sterilizing, and that coir doesn't need pasteurizing. Not everyone's coir will be the same, you really should not skip that step.


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Invisibleprismism
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Drasman123]
    #13104591 - 08/26/10 09:56 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

dp.


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ephemeral anomalous

Edited by prismism (08/26/10 09:56 AM)

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InvisibleFungal growth
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: prismism]
    #13104631 - 08/26/10 10:09 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

prismism said:
Where's the tek? It's no new discovery that monotubs are set and forget. Plus, I wouldn't go around suggesting that you should use h202 as a means of pasteurizing or sterilizing, and that coir doesn't need pasteurizing. Not everyone's coir will be the same, you really should not skip that step.



^^^^^^^
and you say coir has litte to no nutrients? if that were true, it could NOT be used as a bulk substrate.

the burning question:
what was the final dry weight on that tub in the pic?

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OfflineDrasman123
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Fungal growth]
    #13104658 - 08/26/10 10:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Coir is so nutrient rich it makes a terrible casing, if it were so bone dry like suggested then it would be a decent casing layer since it holds so much water.

RR compares coir to horse manure and says that one of the main differences is the consistency/texture.

Coir is bad ass, it makes an awesome bulk medium.


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“Falling in love is like eating mushrooms, you never know if it's the real thing until it's too late.”

Nothing says morning like a cup of coffee and some mycology work!

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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Drasman123]
    #13104935 - 08/26/10 11:37 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I removed the h202 suggestion and what i said about coir & nutes.  Thanks for pointing out my error.

That flush yielded 4 1/4 dry ounces.

And the main thrust of this posting has to do with air circulation.  I guess that'd be where the "tek" part comes in; improving air circulation in the tub in this manner should free up space that one otherwise would not be able to use.  As I hopefully made clear at the top of the post, I'm not out for credit - I didn't think up the monotub.  However, I hadn't seen any mention of constructing and using a tub like I do - so here I"m sharing it.


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

Edited by the spiral (08/26/10 11:43 AM)

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13105126 - 08/26/10 12:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

the spiral said:





Quote:

the spiral said:
And the main thrust of this posting has to do with air circulation.  I guess that'd be where the "tek" part comes in; improving air circulation in the tub in this manner should free up space that one otherwise would not be able to use.





not to be a dick. but the mushrooms in the pic seem to be suffering from lack of air. as indicated by the long skinny stems.


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OfflineICdeadPeople
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: k00laid]
    #13105315 - 08/26/10 01:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

^^^ i agree.  loosen the poly or add some holes IMO... otherwise vn :rockon:


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: ICdeadPeople]
    #13105506 - 08/26/10 02:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Convection is occuring in every monotub. It's not something that started occuring because you cycled the lights.

The light is radiating energy at the sub increasing evaporation. There's no doubt that convection is occurring as a result. Ideally you get whats called a stack effect. Air gets pulled in the lower holes and pushed upward out the upper holes and around the perimeter of the lid. This is the principle that makes monos and shotgun chambers both work. It's also true of two story homes. The natural tendency is for air to leak in at the base and eject out the top.

It's great that you found the right balance for your tub, but I don't see that you've stumbled upon anything interesting.

Sorry.


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: anonjon]
    #13163546 - 09/08/10 02:47 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

On the contrary, I appreciate all constructive criticism.  The poster who noted the seemingly overly skinny stems makes an astute point, but actually it seems to be this particular strain just produces fruits that look like that.  I say this because of experience growing this strain with a variety of teks, and also that other strains that have been grown using this pseudo-tek have not had that appearance.

While monotubs are advertised as "set it and forget it," in many cases I've noticed that people seem to have to fan/mist anyway after all.  My small contribution here is to suggest a true set it, bury it under a pile of clothes, and forget it for a couple weeks technique, with an exceedingly low rate of contamination. 

I agree that this is nothing profoundly new.  I posted it simply because I never have seen this particular setup in its entirety posted before, especially with a diagram, and that the posting of a diagram and these instructions could prove quite useful to any number of users.

Thanks again for all the input!  Keep it coming :smile:


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OfflineSatori23
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13163687 - 09/08/10 05:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'm really curious as to what a Trusted Cultivator will say about this tek, I wonder how much convection actually is being created with the light being turned on and off.

Only thing: I would remove the light bulb from inside the chamber. High RH and electricity.. need I say more? :facepalm: That's just an electrical fire waiting to happen.


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Satori23]
    #13163755 - 09/08/10 06:01 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)


Quote:

Satori23 said:
I'm really curious as to what a Trusted Cultivator will say about this tek, I wonder how much convection actually is being created with the light being turned on and off.

Only thing: I would remove the light bulb from inside the chamber. High RH and electricity.. need I say more? :facepalm: That's just an electrical fire waiting to happen.




I too am curious; although I've been experimenting and refining my techniques since 2002 (since I joined the shroomery) and consider myself to be pretty well versed in the minutiae of mycology (at least, where P. Cubensis is concerned), I haven't had the time or the drive to seek out a TC tag.  Plus, having received some less-than-stellar advice from some TCs in the past, I find that brainstorming out loud (and having a healthy appreciation for criticism) often leads to the most productive discussions; sometimes it's those people who are less set in their methods who come up with the most novel ideas, after all.

As for the fire hazard, I think (key word being think) that both the use of a CFL and having a timer regularly switch off the light bulb to avoid excess heat may reduce some of those risks.  That said, I don't see how to eliminate the risk of sparking when the bulb is switched on, but perhaps the humidity might act as a bit of a buffer?  Plus, the bulb is suspended in such a way that it is not in contact with the sides of the container. 

All that said, I do appreciate your pointing out this possible hazard.  Further discussion certainly seems warranted, for even though I personally think this is a highly unlikely scenario, if I've learned anything from my years working in biotech labs and experimenting with home mycology it's that just because I think something to be the case doesn't mean that I'm right.

EDIT: Removing the bulb from inside the tub would defeat the purpose of the convection the heat from the bulb stimulates.  I recently ran an experiment where identical tubs were built, one with the bulb on the inside and one with the bulb on the outside.  Both tubs were treated the same - that's to say they were set, and forgotten.  While the tub with the light on the inside fruited gorgeously, the tub without the light on the inside suffered from quite obvious signs of insufficient FAE.  While not conclusive evidence of convective FAE (for that, this experiment would have to be run using multiple tubs a multitude of times with the same isolate, this has served to suggest to me that my hypothesis that the heat of the bulb is contributing rather significantly to convection and increasing FAE is (more likely than not) the case.

Again, all criticism is very welcome (especially the constructive kind!)


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

Edited by the spiral (09/08/10 06:56 AM)

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OfflineMowglee
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13164319 - 09/08/10 09:52 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

hell yeah! :thumbup::heart::mushroom2::crazy2:

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Offlinek00laid
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13164334 - 09/08/10 09:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the spiral said:
one with the bulb on the inside and one with the bulb on the outside.  Both tubs were treated the same - that's to say they were set, and forgotten.  While the tub with the light on the inside fruited gorgeously, the tub without the light on the inside suffered from quite obvious signs of insufficient FAE.




ive heard moving the light closer makes bigger fruits :shrug:

i wouldnt jump to conclusions about heated bulbs providing massive amounts of FAE


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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Mowglee]
    #13164337 - 09/08/10 09:59 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If I were to use a a light IN my FC,I can tell you that I would silicone caulk the bulb into the socket so as no moisture can get into the socket and cause either A) an electrical fire,B) a short,or C) both.

But I wouldn't put a light in my FC as it raises the temperature in a FC significantly...if you say otherwise you have no idea how inefficient electronics truly are nor how electricity works.


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7 days without waves makes one weak!

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Mad_Hatter2004]
    #13164434 - 09/08/10 10:34 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe if you were fruiting in a really cold place it could help.  But as others have said it would degrade the light, with moisture condensing in the transformer.

You'll get nearly the same amount of energy radiating onto the surface with the light outside a piece of plexiglass, prolonging the light's lifespan.


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: anonjon]
    #13164485 - 09/08/10 10:49 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

but perhaps the humidity might act as a bit of a buffer?




Actually, it's going to cause semi-immediate degradation of the exposed circuit elements.
If you want to experiment with convection in a tub, consider using a heat bomb. :thumbup:


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Doc_T]
    #13164753 - 09/08/10 12:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A heat bomb is an interesting idea, though in my case I can't see needing one.

So far, after several months using the same bulbs, there hasn't been any problem with shorts or anything like that.  They're still going strong.

That said, silicone sounds like a good idea. 

The idea that the temperature in the tub would rise too much has simply not been the case.  It has raised the temperature enough that I'm pretty convinced the heat from the bulb has to be encouraging convective air circulation, and after initially having observed a thermometer in the first tub done this way, I switched to the 30 mins on/ 30 mins off strategy for that very reason.  That eliminated the heat problem - in fact, it's brought the temperature to just the right fruiting temperature (temp gets raised by about 8 degrees F.)

A big reason I don't use a plexiglass top is because this way it simply looks so much more innocent. 

Bottom line, everyone is going to have a tek they like best.  This is the combination of things I've found to work exceptionally well for me (I'm set for the next year at least lol) and I figured - why not share it?

That said, silicone around the base of the bulb over where it screws it sounds like a good suggestion.  Thanks!


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13165857 - 09/08/10 03:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the spiral said:

That said, silicone around the base of the bulb over where it screws it sounds like a good suggestion.  Thanks!




It's sounds like a terrible idea to me. Did someone suggest this?


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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: anonjon]
    #13165894 - 09/08/10 03:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I suggested it...kind of....

Quote:

Mad_Hatter2004 said:
If I were to use a a light IN my FC,I can tell you that I would silicone caulk the bulb into the socket so as no moisture can get into the socket and cause either A) an electrical fire,B) a short,or C) both.

But I wouldn't put a light in my FC as it raises the temperature in a FC significantly...if you say otherwise you have no idea how inefficient electronics truly are nor how electricity works.




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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Mad_Hatter2004]
    #13165906 - 09/08/10 03:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

As long as just the bulb is in the FC and the actual socket is outside and there is silicone in place sealing any moisture from getting between the bulb and the socket or into the socket it would be fine...it would still raise temps significantly but he wouldn't have to worry about a short or starting a fire...how do you think underwater dock lights work?


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: Mad_Hatter2004]
    #13168713 - 09/09/10 01:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mad_Hatter2004 said:
As long as just the bulb is in the FC and the actual socket is outside and there is silicone in place sealing any moisture from getting between the bulb and the socket or into the socket it would be fine...it would still raise temps significantly but he wouldn't have to worry about a short or starting a fire...how do you think underwater dock lights work?




And that's exactly how I sealed one of my bulbs.  I plan on testing for longevity etc. a sealed bulb and an unsealed one.  Keep in mind that both have been "unsealed" until now (about six months, and both still work great - despite the light coating of spores I can't seem to clean off of some of the more inaccessible areas of the curly bulb).  That said, I don't think it's too optimistic to expect a relatively normal (or at least respectable) longevity from these bulbs, considering that they've lasted a reasonably good amount of time already (especially compared to a regular incandescent, though such a light would be contraindicated for this application.)

Remember, the heat coming off of this 13 watt compact fluorescent is absolutely nothing compared to a standard lightbulb.  One can (uncomfortably, perhaps, but it's do-able - not that I'd suggest it) handle one of these bulbs after it's been running for 30 mins (and after 30 mins off they've been room temperature for quite some time) without getting burned.  That said, they still can get relatively hot, which is why I'm rather certain as to it assisting convection. 

Next time around I also plan on testing an externally lit tub vs this design, and see what kind of differences this time that I can observe in time-to-fruiting, in order to identify if there is any sort of detriment from the extra heat.  That said, I find it hard to believe I would have gotten the kind of amazing flushes with this kind of setup (the one pic I posted is a sorry example compared to others; I'll have to make sure to take extra pics next time) if any significant issue was being caused by the compact fluorescent bulb.  Bottom line: it works, and it's easy, and with the insight a number of folks (thank you greatly) have provided here, it continues to improve.  This is exactly what I hoped for; shroomery community, you seem to never let me down :smile:


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"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism." - Carl Sagan

Edited by the spiral (09/09/10 01:40 AM)

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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: the spiral]
    #13168957 - 09/09/10 05:05 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

interesting. I would have thought you have to use a particular kind of silicone made for this purpose.


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The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


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Offlinethe spiral
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Re: FAE via Convection [Re: anonjon]
    #13168960 - 09/09/10 05:08 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

anonjon said:
interesting. I would have thought you have to use a particular kind of silicone made for this purpose.




I used a multi-purpose silicone, whose manufacturer was kind enough to include usable temperature information on the side.  The temperatures that this particular silicone was rated up to was far higher than anything my bulb will be experiencing.

I'm not entirely sure the whole silicone thing is necessary; in fact, I know it's not at least over a six month period!  That said my experience could simply be a lucky one, and the process of applying the silicone took hardly any time and all, and I also already had the silicone around to make injection ports for my spawn bags.


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