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Offlinetwighead
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Re: WWII [Re: Maurer]
    #13053329 - 08/15/10 12:35 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Maurer said:
I feel America is fake as hell, it took too many countries to take down such a small amount of men and it's just sad.



Eh? The two main countries we'd been fighting had spent the last decade preparing in any way possible for a global war, ideologically, technologically, militarily... I'd say the outcome was expected - Once the US and Soviet war machines got in gear they were pretty much overran.


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OfflineWakeboardrB
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Re: WWII [Re: twighead]
    #13053386 - 08/15/10 01:02 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

twighead said:
Quote:

Maurer said:
I feel America is fake as hell, it took too many countries to take down such a small amount of men and it's just sad.



Eh? The two main countries we'd been fighting had spent the last decade preparing in any way possible for a global war, ideologically, technologically, militarily... I'd say the outcome was expected - Once the US and Soviet war machines got in gear they were pretty much overran.




I'm a bit confussuled... Care to clarificationism?


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Invisiblenasem
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Re: WWII [Re: WakeboardrB]
    #13053404 - 08/15/10 01:10 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think he means the battle is won before the fight


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OfflineKonyap

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Re: WWII [Re: nasem]
    #13053535 - 08/15/10 02:10 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Hitler was a poor strategist, toro was batshit insane, stalin, uhh wtf is up with that guy was he really trying to take over the world, he's definantly got a record down there.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: WWII [Re: trampis]
    #13053595 - 08/15/10 02:41 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trampis said:
WWII was an inside job.

:tinfoil:





Actually...


Quote:

Woodrow Wilson's insistence on American entry into World War I needlessly prolonged an already immensely costly war, and the evils of Nazism and Communism stem directly from the collapse of the traditional European order that the war brought about. Denson devotes some attention to Wilson's use of Lincoln-like tactics in exploiting the sinking of the Lusitania in 1915. The ship had been built to carry arms and was in fact carrying munitions when the Germans sank it. Wilson was fully aware of this yet refused to issue a warning to American passengers to avoid the ship. Wilson treated the sinking as an unprovoked attack on a civilian liner and used grief over the loss of American lives to incite anti-German sentiment. The inveterate Anglophile president had to wait until 1917 before he was able to bring America into the war. Once more, Denson's argument should be viewed on its own terms. He is not defending the German policy of unrestricted submarine warfare but rather indicting Wilson's efforts to manipulate that policy for his own bellicose ends.

Denson considers in much greater detail the efforts of Franklin Roosevelt to bring America into World War II through the "back door" of a Japanese attack. Roosevelt wished to bring the United States into Britain's war against Nazi Germany. Here, following Murray Rothbard, Denson stresses the financial interests of the Morgan and Rockefeller groups in a British victory. Roosevelt, though he was later to turn on the British Empire, was in the period 1939–41 anxious to help the British cause. "World War II might therefore be considered, from one point of view, as a coalition war: the Morgans got their war in Europe, the Rockefellers theirs in Asia" (p. 167, quoting Rothbard). Owing to the reluctance of the American public to enter the war, Roosevelt could not pursue his aim directly.

Instead, he sought to provoke a Japanese attack. He knew that Germany, as Japan's Axis Pact ally, would enter the war on Japan's side if he were successful in his scheme. Roosevelt accordingly adopted an intransigent policy toward the Japanese; when they would not meet his terms, he cut off oil exports to Japan and eventually froze Japanese assets in the United States. Denson quotes several sources, including the statement by Secretary Stimson mentioned previously, that indicate that Roosevelt hoped to induce the Japanese to fire first in a contrived incident.

Denson's argument so far parallels that of the UCLA political scientist and historian Marc Trachtenberg, in his The Craft of International History: A Guide to Method (Princeton, 2006)[1] ; but our author goes further. Like such earlier revisionists as George Morgenstern, Harry Elmer Barnes, and Charles Beard, Denson holds that the Roosevelt Administration deliberately withheld information from the military commanders at Pearl Harbor indicating that a Japanese attack was imminent. By doing so, they thereby assured American entry into the war.

This is a daring thesis, but doubters must confront a massive amount of evidence. Against the advice of the commander-in-chief of the Pacific Fleet, Admiral James O. Richardson, Roosevelt insisted that the fleet be moved to Pearl Harbor. Richardson warned that this would endanger the fleet and be viewed by the Japanese as a provocation; for his efforts, Roosevelt removed him from command.

Readers interested in the details of the last few days before the December 7 attack will find them discussed in abundance. One item that I found particularly telling is that the chief of naval operations, Admiral Harold Stark, at first picked up the telephone on the morning of December 7 to call Admiral Kimmel, the commander at Pearl Harbor, after receiving the decoded fourteen-part Japanese telegram that indicated an attack was about to take place. He then put down the telephone and did not make the call. Likewise, General George Marshall, the army chief of staff, did not telephone the army commander. Instead, he sent a telegram without priority; as Harry Elmer Barnes once put it, he sent it "like he might send a birthday telegram to his grandmother."

But must not this theory answer a serious objection? Roosevelt may have wanted to enter the war; but surely he did not want the Japanese to defeat America. Why then would he put the American fleet at risk? Should we not take Stimson's comment as referring to some very much smaller encounter?

Denson responds effectively. Admiral Kimmel received an order before the attack to send to sea all the most modern naval vessels in the fleet. Only relatively outdated ships were in port when the Japanese attacked. "On orders from Washington, Kimmel left his oldest vessels inside Pearl Harbor and sent twenty-one modern warships, including his two aircraft carriers, west toward Wake and Midway" (p. 157, quoting Robert B. Stinnett, Day of Deceit: The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor [New York, 2000]; Denson has been much influenced by this book). Roosevelt, avid for war, undertook a desperate gamble.

Readers of A Century of War will gain an indispensable tool for understanding American foreign policy. Skepticism about claims of injured innocence from Washington is the beginning of political wisdom.




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Offlinetwighead
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Re: WWII [Re: coAsTal]
    #13053617 - 08/15/10 02:54 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

How did America lengthen WWI?

Most of that article doesn't make much sense in context.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: WWII [Re: twighead]
    #13053658 - 08/15/10 03:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Please read this.


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Offlinetwighead
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Re: WWII [Re: coAsTal]
    #13053762 - 08/15/10 05:08 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That didn't answer my question, and the notion that the US only placed out of date ships in pearl harbor is bullshit, almost every battleship in the pacific fleet (none were under construction at the time) was destroyed.

I'm not sure what this guy is trying to prove? That the US was unjustified in its entry into the war? Of course they slowly engaged themselves - it was a way of showing the Japanese and Germans that if they pushed it any further that they would enter, to pretend that Japan and Germany were not the belligerent nations in this conflict is erroneous. He goes on to further prove his ignorance by stating "Americans love to speculate about German acquisition of atomic weapons, intercontinental ballistic missiles, and other military capabilities the Nazis, in fact, never came close to acquiring." :lol: Germany was so much further advanced in most of these technologies this should not even be debatable.


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Re: WWII [Re: twighead]
    #13053814 - 08/15/10 05:58 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Where do you think the nazis went after the war?

The USA gave many of them jobs..


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Re: WWII [Re: trampis]
    #13053854 - 08/15/10 06:30 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, man. Fuck the Nazis.

But you know, Berlin wouldn't have Fallen without the Red Armys 3 Million Man march


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Re: WWII [Re: ViolentFemme]
    #13053943 - 08/15/10 07:44 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trampis said:
Where do you think the nazis went after the war?

The USA gave many of them jobs..




The nazis went to South America.

Quote:

ViolentFemme said:
Yeah, man. Fuck the Nazis.

But you know, Berlin wouldn't have Fallen without the Red Armys 3 Million Man march




Berlin fell because we deceived the Germans into thinking D-Day wasn't happening. The Russians held off Hitler's supplies at Stalingrad, no marching.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: WWII [Re: twighead]
    #13054758 - 08/15/10 12:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

twighead said:
That didn't answer my question,
Quote:

and the notion that the US only placed out of date ships in pearl harbor is bullshit, almost every battleship in the pacific fleet (none were under construction at the time) was destroyed.



Calling something "bullshit" is your idea of a refutation of a set of facts, then? The individuals I have quoted have cited source materials from the period that prove what they say.

A guy on the internet summarily dismissing those resources, historical records, and first-hand accounts as "bullshit" is kind of ridiculous.

Quote:

I'm not sure what this guy is trying to prove? That the US was unjustified in its entry into the war?




Sounds like the intent of the essay is perfectly clear to you.

Quote:


Of course they slowly engaged themselves - it was a way of showing the Japanese and Germans that if they pushed it any further that they would enter, to pretend that Japan and Germany were not the belligerent nations in this conflict is erroneous.




Belligerent, yes. But in response to a stacked deck against them.
Quote:

Roosevelt had already led the United States into war with Germany in the spring of 1941 – into a shooting war on a small scale. From then on, he gradually increased U.S. military participation. Japan's attack on December 7 enabled him to increase it further and to obtain a war declaration. Pearl Harbor is more fully accounted for as the end of a long chain of events, with the U.S. contribution reflecting a strategy formulated after France fell. . . . In the eyes of Roosevelt and his advisers, the measures taken early in 1941 justified a German declaration of war on the United State – a declaration that did not come, to their disappointment. . . . Roosevelt told his ambassador to France, William Bullitt, that U.S. entry into war against Germany was certain but must wait for an "incident," which he was "confident that the Germans would give us." . . . Establishing a record in which the enemy fired the first shot was a theme that ran through Roosevelt's tactics. . . . He seems [eventually] to have concluded – correctly as it turned out – that Japan would be easier to provoke into a major attack on the Unites States than Germany would be. (pp. 179–80, 184, 185, emphasis added)





Quote:

He goes on to further prove his ignorance by stating "Americans love to speculate about German acquisition of atomic weapons, intercontinental ballistic missiles, and other military capabilities the Nazis, in fact, never came close to acquiring."
:lol: Germany was so much further advanced in most of these technologies this should not even be debatable.




We return again to the impotent ad-hominem attack on the the man writing. You aren't even aware of the content of this report, yet flail against the author as "ignorant" and "bullshit". It is a FACT that the many fears claimed against Germany, as far as their technological prowess and implementation were abjectly false.
Rampant propaganda. In the exact same manner as modern government claimed with guns and bombs pointed that Iraq "had, without a doubt, chemical, biological, and nuclear weapon capability, coupled with the clear and present dangerous intent to use these weapons of mass destruction on American interests"

Who is ignorant here?

Let's show the rest of the quote you mentioned in your "ignorant" comment:

Quote:

As things actually stood, Germany lacked the capability to invade and conquer even Great Britain. Conquering the United States, thousands of miles across the Atlantic, was realistically inconceivable. Whatever else one may take U.S. leaders' motives for war to have been in the early 1940's, national self-preservation could not have been among them, unless they were shockingly ill-advised as to the economic, logistical, and technological constraints on the German war machine. In reality, that machine had its hands more than full in dealing with the Soviets on the eastern front, not to mention the British and others who were pestering it on other fronts.




Taking a step back and looking at the simple realities of this pulverized country divided between several separate war fronts, with a collapsing economy, dwindling resources, no navy, and a dearth of soldiers to replace the millions dead, it's no more than Hollywood glamour-boating to re-imagine this beaten down and (as history clearly revealed) bound-to-be defeated nation as an almost Biblical nemesis.
Germany cast its fatal stone when it picked a fight with Russia.
Our intelligence knew that at the time, which is why we were working so closely with Stalin, a man that butchered tens of millions of people-- more than the rest of the world war COMBINED.

Yet this United States, that knowingly partnered with the Soviets, KNOWING that these millions had been killed, is somehow too pure and infallible--too moral and upright-- to have used a regional feude on the other side of the world as a staged catalyst for its own power-mongering goals.
The same government is doing the same thing today in the middle east.
This golden aura around WWII is a stain of deception. It's simply not true.
But Saving Private Ryan, and Band of Brothers makes us feel good about the 400,000 men that were killed in that war... and we cherish the ascention of the US in world pecking order that came from that war... so we drink it up, and read the re-written history with glee.

It doesn't make it real. The facts are there, in the history books.
If you love your country, you should know the full truth of what it has done to others in your name.
I feel this way about this abomination of a war in Iraq/Afghanistan, and I feel it about the other wars of aggression in American history, each of which, when studied, reveal the clear and calculated policy goals of suits in Washington DC.

Don't confuse a decades-old almost idolization of an almost supernaturally evil Germany (an evil that somehow only they possessed) with the real-world, on the ground recorded fact of what these real people did, when, where, and why.

If you want to call this man ignorant in defense of your beliefs, you are sadly deceived.

I've got nothing at all against you, man-- but don't claim knowledge that transcends facts that are given to you. Read the books that are shown to you, that are filled with source accounts and facts. THEN try and refute them using facts and logic.
Parroting movie themes and claiming they are legitimate historical accounts does not a convincing argument make.

:peace:


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: WWII [Re: twighead]
    #13055083 - 08/15/10 01:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

twighead said:
Quote:

Maurer said:
I feel America is fake as hell, it took too many countries to take down such a small amount of men and it's just sad.



Eh? The two main countries we'd been fighting had spent the last decade preparing in any way possible for a global war, ideologically, technologically, militarily... I'd say the outcome was expected - Once the US and Soviet war machines got in gear they were pretty much overran.




A small amount of men?  The German Army is estimated to have had over 18 million men between the years 1935 and 1945 (not all at one point)  Hell, they had around 40 Waffen SS Divisions alone at the end of WWII....  Other notables....  Their main battle tank towards the end of the war, the PK-V Panther, is widely held to be the best tank in the world until the mid 1950's, they had superior aircraft, until about late 1943, their helmet design is used currently by American troops, they were very well trained and equipped.  The Germans had outstanding generals--the US attack on Kuwait and Iraq in the first gulf war is classic envelopment, fast-moving mobile warfare designed to cut supply lines, with plenty of air support, exactly like Rommel had done with his Afrika Korps in North Africa in 1940~1943.  In the battle of stalingrad, Field Marshal Paulus went in with around 250,000 men in his 6th army, and surrendered in early 1943 with, what the Russians said was "90,000 skeletons in rags" the germans suffered 840,00 casualties, the russian casualties were around 1.2 million. This of course helped with diverting forces from the defense lines in the West.    The war against Japan, after the US lost a good part of its military in asia defending the Philippines, as well as the loss of most of its navy at pearl harbor and the battle of the Coral Sea,  left the US Navy with 3 aircraft carriers and about 25 mostly outdated destroyers and cruisers to stop the attack at midway.  The japanese had over 200 ships including several battleships and 4 large aircraft carriers.  The US caught the japanese navy by surprise and sunk all four aircraft carriers, and lost one.  This set the stage for the 'island-hopping campaign' against the japanese.  The japanese were advancing in 1942 in the solomon islands, and notably towards Port Moresby in New Guinea, where they were slowed by a few battalions of reserve australians.  However, Japanese engineers were spotted by intel building an airstrip on guadacanal, and the US landed marines there, and eventually army, in what would become one serious battle over a little bit of real estate.  However, if the Japanese had been allowed the airfield there, along with their operational fields in New Guinea, they would have had enough strategic air power to launch an invasion against Australia.  The island hopping ended in 1945 with the battle of Okinawa, in which the around 200,000 japanese were killed--one third of the islands population.  Of he 200,000, 100,000 were japanese military and conscripts, the other hundred thousand were civilians. the war ended after the emperor cast the deciding vote in favor of unconditional surrender to the allies. 

So my point is, the US faced superior technology, troops, and even numbers until about mid to late 1943.  When the war began, the US military was sadly lacking in personnel and equipment to face off against either the Japanese or ther Germans.  The Russians, were even less prepared, and had obsolete equipment and training.  They made up for it by sacrificing men by the hundreds of thousands.  One thing that the US always failed to realize after WWII was the paranoia of the Russians that was the result of losing 20 million of its citizens fighting germany. 

So its better to be well read and understand the many factors that went into winning the war.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: WWII [Re: trampis]
    #13055134 - 08/15/10 01:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

trampis said:
WWII was an inside job.

:tinfoil:





actually it was mostly an outside job, they didnt have the newfangled
video game murder machines like we have now, people actually had to
go out and get dirty in the 40s


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Re: WWII [Re: coAsTal]
    #13055598 - 08/15/10 03:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

coAsTal:  You need to really study the war instead of posting on your emotions.  You can get detailed information on technology used.  Germany had the best tank (PK-V Panther) the first operational jet (ME-262), the first airborne radar (VHF range only, for attacking bomber formations) Ballistic missles, and came close to building a nuke.  They came close to closing the atlantic with only 100 submarines.  The truth is, the Allies could have easily lost this war if not for the sheer stupidity and intransigence of Hitler.  If it can be stipulated that the Germans build really good cars --mercedes benz, BMW, Porsche...well, Daimler Benz (parent of Mercedez in the war) built lots of military vehicles, BMW made a big number of their aircraft engines--and the german aircraft were pretty much the shiz until mid 1943--and Porsche are the notable vehicle makers.  Check out that Porsche in the photo below.  Sorry but you fail--the Germans had superior technology, training, and leadership for a good part of the war.  As far as the morals of it....well, ask any older Chinese, Philippino, Thai, Burmese, Indonesian, or Korean what they think of Japan.... and the older people in Europe remember the Germans too.... Sadly, long before the US nuked japan, the war in Europe had become characterized by the wholesale bombing of civilian populations, by both the Germans and British and Americans.... By the way, read about the rape of Nanking and the less well-known manila massacre in 1945. I cant even look at the pictures or read the accounts, it fucking turns my stomach.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: WWII [Re: starfire_xes]
    #13055682 - 08/15/10 03:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

There is no emotional component to my statements. Only facts.

I absolutely acknowledge the technical end engineering expertise of the German people. They were among the forefront of the civilized world in the decades leading up to the wars in science and technology.
That doesn't make them invincible. It didn't make them invincible. They were defeated for many reasons, including (as you repeated) Hitler's irrational and foolish commands. Tanks delayed their defeat. A bit. Jets were far too late to help. Subs were a horrible threat, but not, as history clearly showed, an impossible threat. They were starved for resources, which is why they went into Russia to begin with. The whole endeavor was foolish from the outset.

One needn't deny that the German machine was powerful to acknowledge that it did, in fact, fail within  few years, and fail most spectacularly. 

I told you above that I make no assertion that Germany, Soviet Russia, or Japan were not warmongering, violent animals.
I do assert that the US did intentionally make itself a player, despite the repeated efforts by Germany and Japan to keep the US out of the conflict.

This is highlighted from the other side by the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki-- barbarous atrocities perpetuated against an enemy that was already using diplomatic channels to attempt a cessation of hostilities.

Those nuclear murders were committed as a show of strength to Russia, which could have easily run the Allies right the fuck out of Europe had they been so inclined. 200, 000 civilians in Japan were incinerated by our government to make a point to an ally-turned adversary.

This is not emotion, it is record.

Perhaps you, too, should study the war and its approachment more carefully.


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InvisiblecoAsTal
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Re: WWII [Re: coAsTal]
    #13055724 - 08/15/10 03:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

starfire_xes - I find it important to supplement your mention of the Japaneze atrocities at Nanking and Manila with the incineration of the entire city of Hamburg (50,000 burned alive),  Dresden (25,000 burned alive) Pforzheim (18,000 burned alive).

These 88,000 people were murdered by Allied firebombings.

Your heros burned alive tens of thousands of women and children in a calculated firebombing massacre.

War breeds evil. The sanitized, GI-Joe propaganda doesn't mention that we slaughtered civilians like it was our job. It WAS "our job"

That's why I reject the sanctity of hero-worship in WWII, or any war for that matter.

Vulgar tyrants murder by the millions, and their people are told pretty lies to make them feel justified, indignant, and righteous about it.

Lies.


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Re: WWII [Re: coAsTal]
    #13056538 - 08/15/10 06:52 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Well, i more or less agree with you...except for a few facts.  After the second atomic bombing, the Japanese War Council were split 3-3 against stopping the war....the emperor cast the deciding vote in favor of stopping it, or hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions more would have died.  I was going to mention the firebombing of dresden, it was pretty horrible...  but Russia lost 20 million, the rest of europe possibly another 20 million....another 35 million killed in the pacific.  Other less well know atrocities, a number of Japanese were hanged for war crimes because they were eating prisoners towards the end of the war.  The city of Tokyo was firebombed and had 15sq miles of it burned out in one night...about the same amount of damage as Dresden.  The japanese manila massacre killed about 100,000.  I cant call most of the bombings murder....it is insane and horrible, but you did have a couple of lunatics loose in Germany and Japan who started it.  THis war was way beyond any rational logic or humanity by 1941.

By the way, I talked to a Chinese friend and she said to tell you if you don't believe what happened in China you are a moron.  :tongue2:


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Re: WWII [Re: starfire_xes]
    #13056683 - 08/15/10 07:36 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I believe full-well the horrors visited upon the chinese by the Japanese--

Suffice it to say there are many things to learn about where we've been, and I am glad we have had this discussion--


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