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OfflineShroomin4u
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Registered: 02/18/22
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Last seen: 10 months, 17 days
Re: The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold [Re: Wing]
    #27723057 - 04/06/22 09:40 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

All of human history would heavily disagree with you. Sodium and Phosphate groups are excellent preserves.

Salt sucks the water contents out of cells and restricts enzymatic activity. Humans and mammals evolved the organ {kidney} to deal with as they use salt for many biological processes. Even with that evolution we still struggle to withstand the effects of salt and preservatives in our systems.

(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3582990/)
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3278747/)

We are also different from fungi in that we have internal digestive tracks and not external ones.

I myself have researched and studied the process of growing oyster mushrooms in extremely salinized water with high nutrient contents. Even using commercial preservatives. It grows slower (sometimes barely and sometimes significantly; depends on the preserv), but without any containments. This is no surprise since fungus was the first species to migrate from the the sea to the earth. In fact they might have been the ones to create dirt in the first place.

Hydrogen peroxide for example easily destroys Trichoderma spores at low concentration without effecting mycelia networks (including mature trich colonies so be aware)

You can't cut out a trich infection because they're parasitic and high nutrient opportunistic (they're used to getting heavy nutrient loads from host plants.)

(https://biocontrol.entomology.cornell.edu/pathogens/trichoderma.php)

Meaning they wrap around and starve the mycelium they've infected.

However mycelium are taken from nature: oyster, lions, cube, etc. have all been exposed to live trich for millions if not billions of years. They have immune systems. They grow natural exposed to more containments than you could imagine.

All you need to do is to reduce the payload of the trich to a manageable level for the mushrooms. Meaning you need to deliver agents that can damage that trich without effecting the host. AKA salt.

(I'm not a molecular biologist so I have no clue why trich can't withstand salt and oyster, cube, lions, etc. can. They just can.)

Trich is not a decomposer, it's naturally found protecting and growing in/on plant roots. It needs high levels of nutrients or/from a root network to survive. That's almost the exact opposite environment you find oysters, cube, etc.

Deprive the trich of it's favored environment and nutrients. Provide your host decomposer high levels of cellulose and lignin. Things the trich can't eat for metabolism. And let that serve as a energy pool for immune responses. Once you've cultivated that host organism to a sufficient size for it's immune system to handle trich expose it to levels of nutrients (maybe even a salt bath with those nutrients)

I'm sick and tired of people trying to be poser scientists.

YOU DON'T HAVE THE SAME RESOUCRES OR EQUIPMENT!

Instead of just slapping a boat load of nutrients down your mycelium's throat actually take a second to think about the environment or niche it's evolved for. How can you best replicate that and provide additional support for it?

My own substrates consist of low nutrient density materials like wood chips and cardboard. Slightly soaked with salt.

Stuffing these grains and sugars down the mycelium's throat is akin to how the meat industry pumps its cattle with hormones. It's just a unnatural solution that only the big boys with all this funding and equipment can afford to do.

These simple nutrients like malt, fructose, and grain starches are almost the exact environment that contams like trich love. Nothing can decompose complex nutrients like decomposers (oysters, etc.) even bordering on breaking down hydro carbons like oil. Why would you throw away those amazing enzymes for a faster pay off?

Fungi like yeast I can understand. They have a amazing ability to just completely rip apart their competition. Even partnering with tasty bacteria in sour doughs. But oyster? It's a couple hundred thousand years to young to expect to perform like that.


--------------------
Those who act like they know all, know nothing.

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OfflineDERRAYLD
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Re: The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold [Re: Shroomin4u]
    #27723075 - 04/06/22 10:10 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

I'm not quite sure what you're ultimately arguing here?

Using clean spawn with oysters for example allows me to produce multiple flushes on large straw columns.
The columns only got tossed once the mushroom weight produced reduced the viability of the old columns in the space that a fresh column could go.

There's no trich in that mix because of the clean spawn and substrate.

"My own substrates consist of low nutrient density materials like wood chips and cardboard. Slightly soaked with salt."

Do you grow commercially or just hobby growing?
What sorts of results have you achieved?

Starving a fruiting body of nutrients is counterintuitive and illogical, your argument regarding contamination favoring the nutrients shouldn't factor in here if you consider the process.

"Stuffing these grains and sugars down the mycelium's throat is akin to how the meat industry pumps its cattle with hormones. It's just a unnatural solution that only the big boys with all this funding and equipment can afford to do."

That's a bit over the top, we're creating optimum environments for fungus growth and you criticize it like we're some meat farmers.

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OfflineShroomin4u
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Registered: 02/18/22
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Re: The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold [Re: DERRAYLD]
    #27723103 - 04/06/22 10:47 AM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DERRAYLD said:
I'm not quite sure what you're ultimately arguing here?

Using clean spawn with oysters for example allows me to produce multiple flushes on large straw columns.
The columns only got tossed once the mushroom weight produced reduced the viability of the old columns in the space that a fresh column could go.

There's no trich in that mix because of the clean spawn and substrate.

"My own substrates consist of low nutrient density materials like wood chips and cardboard. Slightly soaked with salt."

Do you grow commercially or just hobby growing?
What sorts of results have you achieved?

Starving a fruiting body of nutrients is counterintuitive and illogical, your argument regarding contamination favoring the nutrients shouldn't factor in here if you consider the process.

"Stuffing these grains and sugars down the mycelium's throat is akin to how the meat industry pumps its cattle with hormones. It's just a unnatural solution that only the big boys with all this funding and equipment can afford to do."

That's a bit over the top, we're creating optimum environments for fungus growth and you criticize it like we're some meat farmers.






I'm a hobby grower. My point was methods like using salt or peroxide are extremely viable small scale. Contrary to the quite ridiculous arguments I see here stating otherwise.

I can also understand the confusion. I'm not arguing for complete malnutrition I'm instead arguing for common sense practice. If your mycelium isn't ready to handle contaminants or is in a environment where it can't then fix the situation in advance.

Substrates like straw, card board (wood byproduct), Paper, Etc. Make intuitive sense to people. However grain (starch), malt/agar, etc. Are counter intuitive for beginners with little equipment. Because they require immense amounts of equipment to sterilize the air and tools your using.

So your giving your advice out to the wrong people. If you want a clean and sterile environment get a lab. Otherwise you'll get a mouth full of trich.

Things like still air boxes are completely silly as well. That seems to be the number one go to for shutting beginners down. Instead of saying "Use low nutrient materials if you aren't getting good results."

I followed the common advice and I would get contams like crazy. Damaging my passion. When I stopped listening to the common pseudo scientific methods I instead gained results.

It doesn't matter how much nutrients your giving if they never make it to the mycelium for fruiting.

"That's a bit over the top, we're creating optimum environments for fungus growth and you criticize it like we're some meat farmers."
Indeed I see people trying to suggest using coffee grounds and other things because they offer good results. Good farming results. But again decomposer mushrooms work the easiest on things like corn husk, paper, etc.

A lot of people seem to ignore the complex requirements for growing and slap sugars at the problem. Instead of taking a step back and looking at the best long term solution for small scale growing.

(also 90% of edible mushrooms are grown in Asia, primarily china, and contain stupid amounts of heavy metals.)


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Those who act like they know all, know nothing.

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OfflineMetaSophia
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Re: The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold [Re: Shroomin4u]
    #27723237 - 04/06/22 01:11 PM (1 year, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomin4u said:
Things like still air boxes are completely silly as well. That seems to be the number one go to for shutting beginners down. Instead of saying "Use low nutrient materials if you aren't getting good results."

I followed the common advice and I would get contams like crazy. Damaging my passion. When I stopped listening to the common pseudo scientific methods I instead gained results.





I'm looking forward to the write ups (and peer reviews) of your Teks.


--------------------

LAGM 2.022

Edited by MetaSophia (04/06/22 01:26 PM)

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Offlinemeisenberg
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Registered: 05/12/22
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Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
Re: The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold [Re: Hippie3]
    #27839463 - 06/27/22 06:57 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I keep getting trich. It always appears after the mushrooms have pinned/fruiting. I'm using sterile technique (clean room, gown,hair net,gloves,mask, alcohol,Lysol, hepa filter. Anyway I just tried your method of extraction and salt. I really hope it works because they are otherwise perfect. Hundreds of pins and primordial. I did separate the infected tub. If anyone has any ideas or advice for this relative newly I'd be grateful.

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OfflineShroomin4u
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Re: The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold [Re: meisenberg] * 1
    #28210126 - 03/01/23 07:18 PM (11 months, 21 days ago)

Not trying to necro this thread, but after this I did some research.

-Different species of mushroom tolerate salt diffrently, some use in it their metabolisms (like how human kidneys use sodium as a required material for urination) and others don't but have protective mechanisms.

For example I've been cultivating oyster and have done some experiments. I took a culture and increased the salinity to about 300%. It took the oyster 12 days to die. These good results lead to me adding 2 grams of >1%SBC (less than 1% sodium bicarbonate) to a culture of oyster mushroom with the standard 5% nutrients.

The mycelium have literally reached the top of the culture. It's grown as thick as a carpet. Other species like shitake don't seem to mind such a small amount of SBC and perform only a little worse. But with a observable smaller chance of contam.

In regards to bulking stages; I now do a small amount of pasteurization (heating the water to boiling before I add spawn to feedstock), I think a small amount of hydrogen peroxide and a very small addition of either salt or SBC could also help reduce contams. Hydrogen because it would fight spores (not live organisms.)

I know pasteurization isn't boiling water (its keeping the water sub boiling), but compared to autoclavation it sort of is.

Anyway most bulk trichoderma is a matter of not adding enough spawn during the bulking stage (if you're getting grain, culture, or plate contams it's a matter of sterility. Either decreasing water content or increasing caution is enough to help stop this issue.)

Adding a small amount (>1%) of HP/SBC where applicable with very hot water should help you. (Don't mix boiling water with your substrate in a plastic or plastic lined container. Leaches microplastics)

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Offline6The6Despised6One
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Re: The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold [Re: MetaSophia]
    #28210224 - 03/01/23 08:28 PM (11 months, 20 days ago)

Quote:

MetaSophia said:
Quote:

Shroomin4u said:
Things like still air boxes are completely silly as well. That seems to be the number one go to for shutting beginners down. Instead of saying "Use low nutrient materials if you aren't getting good results."

I followed the common advice and I would get contams like crazy. Damaging my passion. When I stopped listening to the common pseudo scientific methods I instead gained results.





I'm looking forward to the write ups (and peer reviews) of your Teks.




me too! sounds like someone from the future that has figured out how to do things in a way that has perfectly achieved the goal im trying to reach. and although i just got the perfect makeshift SAB (which has drastically improved my success rate) id still be more than interested to hear about these low nutrient materials/procedures to simplify things for subsistance-ers like myself.

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