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InvisibleHippie3
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The use of salt in fighting trichoderma mold * 1
    #1304120 - 02/13/03 01:57 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

wanted to share a recent thread i started at mycotopia.
============================================================
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By Hippie3 (Admin) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:33 pm: Edit

recently i read about how some commercial edible mushroom growers battle trich and the article mentioned that they often use ordinary table salt to inhibit growth of trich.
having battled trich at great lengths over several years, i was intrigued enough to give it a try.
i'm pleased to report that so far it appears that ordinary table salt is very effective.

i've used it 5 times so far, all on casings.
first i cut out the trich areas, making sure i got it all by cutting well outside the visible growth area.
then i misted it all down good with bleachwater to kill the mold spores left on the casing surface.
next, i poured table salt into the wound left from the surgury, using quite alot of salt so all exposed surfaces were totally covered. thus i nearly filled the hole and the sides of the wound.

after several days of close observation, the casings survived and seem healthy with no sign of any return of trich.

this seems to be well worth further investigation.
i'd suggest to any interested,
the next time you run into trich,
give this 'salt tek' a try.
i can't guarantee it will save massively contam'd casings,
but if you catch it early then this method shows great promise, as my experience up until now is that most generally trich quickly returns even after surgury and bleaching.
the added measure of salting the wound seems to rectify that problem nicely.
it'd be great if others could attempt to replicate and verify my admitted limited observations to date.


By DigitalHippie (Psilocin420) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:40 pm: Edit


very interesting...

By Max Power (Babooscha) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:49 pm: Edit


....wont the salt eat up your water supply? and in battling trich.....could we use a saline solution in the substrate?

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 04:57 pm: Edit


well, those are all what you call 'experimental questions'.
that is to say, we won't know the answers without performing more experiments.
i'm contemplating attempting to pin down what kind of concentration of salt the cubie mycellia can tolerate, as i have no real idea at this point.
the idea occurs to me that it might, stress might, be possible to use a bit of salt in the misting water, perhaps with the bleach.
and the lime.
who knows the chemical interplay ?
but i'm pretty sure there's a definite limit to how much salt the mycellia can tolerate, and salt does accumulate in the soil/casing over time, so careful experimentation is required before risking wholesale use of salt on your crop.
salt is well know throughout history as being very effective at preventing spoilage, they packed meat in salt long before refridgerators were ever invented.

By Spindle (Spindle) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:50 pm: Edit


"Homer, did you have to pick my flowers?"

"Of course I did"

"Well... did you have to pour salt on the ground so that nothing could ever grow again?"

"Hehe.... yeah"

This is certainly interesting, and it does make sense. Did you notice if any mycelium regrew over the treated area?

I would think not... I'm thinking the salt is just good at killing the mold spores so that it creates a "dead field" and doesn't allow any new regrowth. Whereas a bleach spray would kill a lot of the mold, but not all of it, and once the bleach cleared up, the mold was allow to reoccupy the treated area.

Does that seem about right to you Hippie?

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 06:57 pm: Edit


agreed, i see no sign of the mycellia colonizing into the salt, it's barren in that area. but it hasn't killed the adjacent tissue either, so it doesn't seem to spred.

By Spindle (Spindle) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit


Hmm, I shouldn't think it will spread unless the salt gets washed all over the place or something.

I doubt the mycelium isn't going to absorb the salt to any large degree. If you went microscopic, it probably has on the outer fringes, and what bits have absorbed the salt have already died, so now there's like a dead mycelium barrier protecting itself.

Pretty cool findings Hippie, its funny how with all the discussions of different ways to combat contams, one good way to kill it has been on our kitchen tables forever.

By Max Power (Babooscha) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:27 pm: Edit


we are currently using NaCl correct? regular table salt....right? anyone think a diff salt would work? Like road salt or "No Salt"...they are a diff chemical make up, I think substituting the chlorine....but dont quote me on it.....just my 02

By Spindle (Spindle) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 08:40 pm: Edit


Wow Max, I don't have any clue honestly. I have never heard of those kinds of salts, so I don't know how they behave. It really comes down to what the salt would do to the cells themselves.

Common salt, by nature, pulls water out of cell walls and causes them to shrivel and die. I used to know the scientific name for it even. Except, of course, in creatures that are adapted to this, whereas putting those creatures in fresh water would cause their cells to engorge with water until they die. Life's a bitch like that.

Basically, any compound that has a deadly effect to cellular walls and doesn't break down or go away would be effective. Bleach breaks down and alcohol evaporates, but salt is as simple as it gets.

By claviceps purpurea (Claviceps) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:18 pm: Edit


The salt has an inhibitory effect on the germination of spores. NaCL wil work in some cases, but sodium lignin sulfonate is more generalized. The sodium chloride though is probably the safest to use for your mycellium.

By sally solomon (Sallysal) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:30 pm: Edit


Woah Max, I wouldnt go playing around with road salts...I dont know their chemical components, but considering that it is for a more "industrial" use the components would probably be of low quality, most likely has a bromine or iodide attached to the Na ( much stronger than CL= not good for living tissues),or some nasty heavy metal replacing the sodium ( also very bad for living tissues/carcinogenic) and in less than desirable ratios. I think that if you got anything to grow in a cake with a salt of that type,the mycelia would most likely be pretty contaminated chemically and deformed or mutated. As Spindle said, the NaCl works ( doesnt kill everything in the cake because it isnt strong enough)p.s very creative application hippie!) because it dehydrates the remaining cells as well as taking up any nutrients from the surrounding substrate( the two ions dissociate in water and attach to everything), but a salt of unidentifiable molecular makeup, could do any number of things in the presence of water, including the mycelium incorporating some of the ions into it's tissues, or re joining with other molecules into some funky chemicals. A general hint( if u dont know anything about chemistry) would be not to use anything that you wouldnt give to your mum!

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Thursday, February 06, 2003 - 09:39 pm: Edit


just a point of trivia,
but interestingly enough, bleach breaks down into salt.
and reverse osmosis is the process wherein salt can suck the moisture out of cells.


By Shroomzhilla (Shroomzhilla) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 05:38 am: Edit


maybe the Iodine in the salt has a role in ther too. maybe aniodine/betodine trial too? with and with out salt. Maybe I can put my BERNZO-MATIC back out in the shed. lol

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 12:26 pm: Edit


main problem is most iodine comes mixed with alcohol, definite harmful. and pure iodine crystals are too expensive, compared to salt.

By claviceps purpurea (Claviceps) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 08:57 pm: Edit


Baking soda works well, too, or anything alkaline, i.e. bleachwater. I'd go with the baking soda, though, first.

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Friday, February 07, 2003 - 10:34 pm: Edit


have you actually tried baking soda or are you just theorizing ?
bleachwater alone is insufficient,
that's why i added salt.
salt works well

By miracletrader (Miraclet) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 11:03 am: Edit


I have read something similiar to this Hippie3..I don't want to mislead, so I'll look for the info before I post it..
I have had many battles with trich, losing most, but I have had about 80% success in the last 18 months removing the infected area(only if its caught before it gets out of hand)instead of bleach solution, I've used h2o2 solution, and agar prior to it completely setting up(but PC'd already and cooled) to coat the surgery site..interesting thing, most of the time mycel. growth did occur, sometimes great oceans of it grew..I've yet to see actual fruitbodies grow from the site...but I have done it, and seen it work...Salt, now that would be so much easier than making the agar, and sterilizing it...I'd like to hear more, and will experiment myself....Now, I hope for trich...ha...

peace
miraclet

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Saturday, February 08, 2003 - 01:34 pm: Edit


interesting,
never thought about using peroxidated agar in the wound.
but salt is easier and quick so i think i'll stick with it for now, i have more experiments planned.

By Max Power (Babooscha) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 02:55 pm: Edit


please excuse my ignorance but, wtf is agar?

By Pissybee (Pissybee) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 07:01 pm: Edit


It is a polysaccharide found in the cell walls of some red algae and is unusual in containing sulfated galactose monomers. It requires nothing but extraction and purification to become agar, but is sometimes chemically modified into agarose for special applications. Agar added to media simply gels them into a convenient solid form. It is used as a medium for growing cultures of fungus or bacteria.
PB

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Monday, February 10, 2003 - 10:00 pm: Edit


it's alot like jell-o made from seaweed.

By Hippie3 (Admin) on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 03:11 pm: Edit


update.
the salt is working great,
it seems to stop trich dead in its' tracks.
this could be a major break-through, people.
and remember,
you saw it here first.
so far every time i've used it, the trich quit spredding and the trays survive.
i really need others to try this and report back,
we need to get the word out as soon as we can verify my results.
i know someone out there has moldy cakes,
hit it with salt and see what you think.

By stephan (Notsuoh99) on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 03:13 am: Edit


Hip - I have been using the bleach mist with great success & foolishly believed my trich dealing days were behind me - NOT.

A day or so after reading your original salt post I saw tell tale bright white patches on two trays that have been flushing for weeks (everytime I get ready to chunk 'em more pins appear). Just hours later the evil green appeared.

I cut out the contam; packed the edges with Kosher salt (like table salt - just very coarse without the iodine);filled in the hole with sterile verm and waited. That was almost a week ago & all is well - no contams & the remaining surface is covered with healthy shrooms. Now, remember these are really old trays (5+ flushes - I lost count) & very susceptible to contam. I am impressed.

I think you are onto something, Hip - thanks for the research.
============================================================
from Mycotopia: Fungi: Salt and stopping green mold [trich]: mad scientists inquire within


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1304172 - 02/13/03 02:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

did a search on 'salt' and found this-
Cobweb control
Quote:

here are some interesting facts about cobweb mold taken from mushworld:

1) Soil disinfection
Spores of Dactylium dendroides are killed when exposed to 46-50'C (115-122'F) for only 1/2 hour (Wuest, 1982). Also, refer to the following table on thermal death point of different hyperparasitic fungi.

Table 1. Thermal Death Point (Van Zaayen and A. A. Rutjens, 1981) Fungus Thermal Death Point ('C, 30 min.)
Agaricus bisporus 54
Cladobotryum dendroides 43
Verticillium fungicola 39
Mycogone perniciosa 48

2) Salting
Salting is a traditional but still effective way to control the spread of mushroom diseases. However, you should know dispersal reaches a peak within an hour after salting and watering. Disturbance caused by salting is well enough to offset the benefit of salting: the control of air-borne pathogenic fungal spores.

Dr. Grogan made it clear that salting after covering diseased mushrooms with dampened tissue much reduces the number of spores, otherwise carried by air and thus, conducive to spreading the disease.

3) Early disease identification & Judicious watering
4) Good hygiene practices


You can find full article at www.mushworld.com.





btw, i know this idea isn't original, but i'm wondering why it's recieved so little attention. i found a few posts like from 2 years ago mentioning its' use but seems like everyone just sez 'toss it out' instead of listening to what the guy was saying.


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Edited by Hippie3 (02/13/03 02:26 AM)


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1304438 - 02/13/03 05:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I simply case with 50/50 peat/cat litter w/baking soda(I rinse the litter clear then add peat)since going to this formula I have NO trich what-so-ever :wink:
PS the litter is made by Oil-Dri corp(google it baby!) and is a Si/Ca, w/trace Mg expanded clay with NaHCO2.I wash till clear and add Ascorbic acid till Ph7 and then mix with peat moss.IMHO it is the Sodium which inhibits trich which is why it seems the Sodium Ascorbate works so well.
PS this also seems to inhibit bluing in the fruits.WR


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1305769 - 02/13/03 02:25 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

That's very good info hippie, thanks !

MAIA


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: MAIA]
    #1309077 - 02/15/03 03:00 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

thx, it seems to work well, esp. after a bleach dip/misting.


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1314446 - 02/17/03 03:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

does salt help with cobweb?


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: fredthetree]
    #1318082 - 02/19/03 02:47 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

apparently so.
i don't get cobweb much, but just recently had a bit pop up on an overly wet vermiculite casing so i salted all the 'hotspots' and watched. the cobweb disappeared completely overnight, and hasn't returned.


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1318152 - 02/19/03 03:51 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

After reading your post about salt i had a patch of green mould turn up in a casing it tryed removing it but it came back so i tryed the salt tec and it seems to have held it in place for 5 days so far so thanks :smile:


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: G a n j a]
    #1319507 - 02/19/03 02:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

thx for sharing your results.


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1320211 - 02/19/03 06:28 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I wash till clear and add Ascorbic acid till Ph7 and then mix with peat moss.IMHO it is the Sodium which inhibits trich which is why it seems the Sodium Ascorbate works so well.

PS this also seems to inhibit bluing in the fruits




Isn't ascorbic acid just Vitamin C? Do you have a more "step by step" version of this tek that anyone who reads can follow (how to tell if the Ph is 7 without a digital meter, a recipe with amounts perhaps, sources for Sodium Ascorbate) ? Thanks a ton.


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Papa_Smurf]
    #1320887 - 02/20/03 03:57 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

how to tell if the Ph is 7 without a digital meter




Don't you know about those paper strips you use on chem. classes ?

MAIA


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: MAIA]
    #1322332 - 02/20/03 02:25 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

ya, but they were always a pain and not that accurate also was wondering if there was an accurate lehman's method of doing it (a recipe would be fantastic).


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Papa_Smurf]
    #1336309 - 02/26/03 12:04 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

yep, a recipe's helpful.


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Papa_Smurf]
    #1344106 - 03/01/03 12:28 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Trich is not very common. Commercial mushroom cultivators generally use salt to combat Aspergilus and Penicilium


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: whiterasta]
    #1348600 - 03/03/03 08:05 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

More info on the sodium bicarb and on the vitamin c please? :confused:


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1349160 - 03/04/03 09:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Trich is not very common



i beg to differ,
it's so common as to be ubiquitous.
that means it's everywhere,
for the linguistically challenged.
:wink:
and more reports are in, salt is very effective.
see more recent reports at mycotopia.
 


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1353733 - 03/06/03 04:40 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

more reports.
Quote:

By Miraclet (Miraclet) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 01:28 pm: Edit


Well, I will confirm that, by cutting out the trich, on PF style cakes, or casings, lightly spraying either (h202, or bleach ) solution-1-200 ratio on both-where the infected area was, then filling it with salt, or salt agar does stop green mold, and doesn't seem to effect to cake/ casing in any way..I have tried this with 2 cakes, and three casings, and been successful with all..I also fought off cobweb using hippies salt TEK, so I can at least confirm from my end that when cobweb, or trich is caught in its early stages, it can be illiminated...

MT

By David Burton (Eloquence) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 04:31 pm: Edit


I had trich on a cake that I had colonising, and just scraped off the worst, covered it with salt, and then misted the top with a dilute bleach solution. That saw off the trich...

By claviceps purpurea (Claviceps) on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 11:51 pm: Edit


I think I posted this before, but watch out for casings. The salt draws away the water if you have a lot on one side. Misting the dryer areas worked, and I am even getting pins now in the areas where I put the salt.

Oh, yeah -- no contamination!

-- cp

By Miraclet (Miraclet) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 12:57 pm: Edit


What..."I am even getting pins now in the areas where I put the salt"
I have used this on 5 different ordeals with trich, and never had so much as a wisp of new mycel. growth, hippie reported the same results, but your growing pins..The salt indeed stops the green mold, but also stops mycel. from regenerating there as well..


MT

By claviceps purpurea (Claviceps) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 03:49 pm: Edit


Sorry, I meant in the areas where I put the salt. They're growing from the sides of it, if I can get a digital camera I'll post pics.

Are you talking about casing? You need to *mist the dryer parts of the casing* more to balance out the osmotic potential. This is what I was trying to say.

By Max Power (Babooscha) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 04:03 pm: Edit


I used the salt tek on a jar contamed by trich, I wasnt the most sterile person and got salt on one side of my cake....came back the next day....the whole cake was not only invaded by a green trich but a black contam aswell.....but atleast nothing grew on the spots i excised and salted as well as the side of the cake with salt on it

By Miraclet (Miraclet) on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 08:12 pm: Edit


Ouch...Ya, I had issues the same with salt, and I had success prior just removing the trich, and pasting plain agar in the area, so I tried making salt agar, and it worked..Plus, you can be more precise where the salt agar ends up...I dont remember where hippie had heard about this, but very good research, opens alot of possibilities..

peace
MT





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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1354015 - 03/06/03 07:13 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Excellent !!
Good to see people having good results. I'll try it next time i have to deal with contams.

MAIA


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Hippie3]
    #1356525 - 03/07/03 06:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

'Well, I will confirm that, by cutting out the trich, on PF style cakes, or casings'
Sorry, Trich RARELY contaminates substrates and is far more likely to parasite living fruit bodies.
Aspergillus and Penicillium on the other hand often contaminate substrates.
Infact when using a key for contaminants, you will find that substrate contamination often indicates that it is NOT Trichoderma.


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Re: the use of salt in fighting trich [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1359197 - 03/08/03 11:45 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

trich is pretty common, at least where i live.
and i know the difference.
i see it mostly in the casing layer after a couple flushes,
besides 'rare' is a relative word and pretty meaningless in the context, green in always bad and salt will kill it all regardless of exact species.


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