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Heffy
BrauMeister



Registered: 08/30/04
Posts: 3,262
Loc: International Traveller
Last seen: 6 years, 2 days
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: johnm214]
#13065427 - 08/17/10 05:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm quite sure that opening a persons mail is an indictable offense(equivalent of a felony in the U.S) in Canada.
I know of no exception to this for police/customs.
The OP did not specify whether he ordered prints or syringes.
Assuming he ordered syringes and was receiving a package, you are pretty much dead on.
However if the OP was receiving prints in an envelope I believe the police committed a serious crime.
-------------------- I am the king of Rome, and above grammar! - Emperor Sigismund
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Doc_T
Random Dude




Registered: 03/06/09
Posts: 42,395
Loc: Colorado
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: Heffy]
#13065897 - 08/17/10 07:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Heffy said: I'm quite sure that opening a persons mail is an indictable offense(equivalent of a felony in the U.S) in Canada.
I know of no exception to this for police/customs.

Customs is required to inspect all incoming items and is empowered to open anything.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: Heffy]
#13067698 - 08/18/10 05:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Heffy said: I know of no exception to this for police/customs.
But it nevertheless exists. As usual, they will inspect what they care to inspect as is the case in all countries I'm familiar with.
Customs may inspect goods. No exception for mailed items is apparent:
Quote:
(2) An officer, or an officer within a class of officers, designated by the President for the purposes of this section, may at all reasonable times, for any purpose related to the administration or enforcement of this Act,
(a) inspect, audit or examine any record of a person that relates or may relate to the information that is or should be in the records of the person or to any amount paid or payable under this Act;
(b) examine property in an inventory of a person and any property or process of, or matter relating to, the person, an examination of which may assist the officer in determining the accuracy of the inventory of the person or in ascertaining the information that is or should be in the records of the person or any amount paid or payable by the person under this Act;
Customs Act sec 42(2), R.S., 1985, c. 1 (2nd Supp.), s. 42; 2001, c. 25, s. 32; 2005, c. 38, s. 68. (I don't know how to cite Canadian laws, so hopefully this at least enables people interested to find it)
What's more the inspection can be done before or even after the item is imported:
Quote:
7. Subject to this Act and the regulations, any of the powers, duties or functions established under this Act or the regulations relating to the importation of goods may be carried out inside Canada or, where they do not conflict with the laws of another country, inside that other country and may be carried out before or after the importation.
Customs Act, Part One sec 7, 2001, c. 25, s. 6. (I don't know how to cite Canadian laws, so hopefully this at least enables people interested to find it)
Quote:
Heffy said:I'm quite sure that opening a persons mail is an indictable offense(equivalent of a felony in the U.S) in Canada.
I know of no exception to this for police/customs.
The OP did not specify whether he ordered prints or syringes.
Assuming he ordered syringes and was receiving a package, you are pretty much dead on.
However if the OP was receiving prints in an envelope I believe the police committed a serious crime.
If you'll look at my posts in this thread you'll see I've addressed this point. The main thrust of it is: it doesn't matter one way or the other. Whether customs opened it, the neighbor kid, or the meter maid police woman, it doesn't matter that they commited an indictable offense.
Them commiting an indictable offense doesn't help you. At best you'll get them convicted of a crime- this will not help you. Realistically, you can bitch about it and you'll establish that you did possess or own the syringes (can't be victimized by a violation of privacy or illegal search of items you don't have an interest in). This isn't helpful. Even more realistically, you can bitch about it and the cop will tell you to shut up and the prosecutor won't care. You can't charge the person with a crime, and it wouldn't help you even if you could. The same people trying to throw your ass int he slammer are the ones that decide if the cop gets charged/tried. They will almost never opt to do so except in cases of public notoriety and clear moral wrongdoing. Opening mail is not among these, even if it was done illegally, which it doesn't seem to have been.
Edited by johnm214 (08/18/10 05:14 AM)
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: johnm214]
#13067864 - 08/18/10 07:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: The person ordered it to commit a crime and to manufacture and consume drugs
Or for microscopic study.. 
Quote:
johnm214 said: In the US and most states, the syringe in this case is itself illegal- it is drug paraphernalia and a criminal tool.
Show me the law.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: The person ordered it to commit a crime and to manufacture and consume drugs
Or for microscopic study.. 
Or to build an airplane, only he didn't, he ordered it to manufacture.
Quote:
Quote:
johnm214 said: In the US and most states, the syringe in this case is itself illegal- it is drug paraphernalia and a criminal tool.
Show me the law.
21 usc 863
Quote:
(a) In general It is unlawful for any person— (1) to sell or offer for sale drug paraphernalia; (2) to use the mails or any other facility of interstate commerce to transport drug paraphernalia; or (3) to import or export drug paraphernalia. (b) Penalties Anyone convicted of an offense under subsection (a) of this section shall be imprisoned for not more than three years and fined under title 18. (c) Seizure and forfeiture Any drug paraphernalia involved in any violation of subsection (a) of this section shall be subject to seizure and forfeiture upon the conviction of a person for such violation. Any such paraphernalia shall be delivered to the Administrator of General Services, General Services Administration, who may order such paraphernalia destroyed or may authorize its use for law enforcement or educational purposes by Federal, State, or local authorities. (d) “Drug paraphernalia” defined The term “drug paraphernalia” means any equipment, product, or material of any kind which is primarily intended or designed for use in manufacturing, compounding, converting, concealing, producing, processing, preparing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body a controlled substance, possession of which is unlawful under this subchapter. It includes items primarily intended or designed for use in ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing marijuana,[1] cocaine, hashish, hashish oil, PCP, methamphetamine, or amphetamines into the human body, such as— [...]
13 usc 841
Quote:
(a) Unlawful acts Except as authorized by this subchapter, it shall be unlawful for any person knowingly or intentionally— (1) to manufacture, distribute, or dispense, or possess with intent to manufacture, distribute, or dispense, a controlled substance; or (2) to create, distribute, or dispense, or possess with intent to distribute or dispense, a counterfeit substance.
13 usc 846
Quote:
Any person who attempts or conspires to commit any offense defined in this subchapter shall be subject to the same penalties as those prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the attempt or conspiracy.
similar state law:
(attempt and conspiracy both counted as same offense as crime itself, though one lower degree of seriousness and same mandatory minimum)
Ohio Revised Code
Quote:
2923.24 Possessing criminal tools.
(A) No person shall possess or have under the person’s control any substance, device, instrument, or article, with purpose to use it criminally.
(B) Each of the following constitutes prima-facie evidence of criminal purpose:
(1) Possession or control of any dangerous ordnance, or the materials or parts for making dangerous ordnance, in the absence of circumstances indicating the dangerous ordnance, materials, or parts are intended for legitimate use;
(2) Possession or control of any substance, device, instrument, or article designed or specially adapted for criminal use;
(3) Possession or control of any substance, device, instrument, or article commonly used for criminal purposes, under circumstances indicating the item is intended for criminal use.
(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of possessing criminal tools. Except as otherwise provided in this division, possessing criminal tools is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the circumstances indicate that the substance, device, instrument, or article involved in the offense was intended for use in the commission of a felony, possessing criminal tools is a felony of the fifth degree.
Effective Date: 07-01-1996
Quote:
A) As used in this section, “drug paraphernalia” means any equipment, product, or material of any kind that is used by the offender, intended by the offender for use, or designed for use, in propagating, cultivating, growing, harvesting, manufacturing, compounding, converting, producing, processing, preparing, testing, analyzing, packaging, repackaging, storing, containing, concealing, injecting, ingesting, inhaling, or otherwise introducing into the human body, a controlled substance in violation of this chapter. “Drug paraphernalia” includes, but is not limited to, any of the following equipment, products, or materials that are used by the offender, intended by the offender for use, or designed by the offender for use, in any of the following manners:[...]
(C)(1) No person shall knowingly use, or possess with purpose to use, drug paraphernalia.
(2) No person shall knowingly sell, or possess or manufacture with purpose to sell, drug paraphernalia, if the person knows or reasonably should know that the equipment, product, or material will be used as drug paraphernalia.
ORC sec. 2925.12
Quote:
(A) No person shall knowingly make, obtain, possess, or use any instrument, article, or thing the customary and primary purpose of which is for the administration or use of a dangerous drug, other than marihuana, when the instrument involved is a hypodermic or syringe, whether or not of crude or extemporized manufacture or assembly, and the instrument, article, or thing involved has been used by the offender to unlawfully administer or use a dangerous drug, other than marihuana, or to prepare a dangerous drug, other than marihuana, for unlawful administration or use.
(B) This section does not apply to manufacturers, licensed health professionals authorized to prescribe drugs, pharmacists, owners of pharmacies, and other persons whose conduct was in accordance with Chapters 3719., 4715., 4723., 4729., 4730., 4731., and 4741. of the Revised Code.
(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of possessing drug abuse instruments, a misdemeanor of the second degree. If the offender previously has been convicted of a drug abuse offense, a violation of this section is a misdemeanor of the first degree.
(D) In addition to any other sanction imposed upon an offender for a violation of this section, the court shall suspend for not less than six months or more than five years the offender’s driver’s or commercial driver’s license or permit. If the offender is a professionally licensed person, in addition to any other sanction imposed for a violation of this section, the court immediately shall comply with section 2925.38 of the Revised Code.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: johnm214]
#13068935 - 08/18/10 12:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ralphster's sent all my orders with syringes and in U.S. mail at that. I never had a problem with the law. My mail was never intercepted.
That's kind of fucked though don't you think? What about all the vendors out there supplying spore syringes of legal mushrooms? How do you differentiate drug paraphernalia from scientific equipment without cracking open the syringe and looking under the microscope? I highly question the authority of these statutes.
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squeeg
Traveled Psychonaut


Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 45
Loc: TX, USA
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: nooneman]
#13068944 - 08/18/10 12:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nooneman said: You should have told them that they tampered with private mail and you have a good mind to call the cops and have them arrested.
You mean, call the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) and have them arrest their own colleagues? Good luck with that... That would be similar to calling the LAPD to come arrest the LAPD guys harassing you at your door.
-------------------- I know you won't break the rules. There aren't any.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said: Ralphster's sent all my orders with syringes and in U.S. mail at that. I never had a problem with the law. My mail was never intercepted.
That's kind of fucked though don't you think? What about all the vendors out there supplying spore syringes of legal mushrooms? How do you differentiate drug paraphernalia from scientific equipment without cracking open the syringe and looking under the microscope? I highly question the authority of these statutes.
What do you mean you "question the authority of these statutes"? The citations are provided, look em up. Your argument seems to be that the law is ridiculous so it can't be enforced. I'm guessing you've not read many laws, right? They're mostly all ridiculous, especially criminal laws which are written very broad so that essentially anyone they want to convict can be nabbed.
Unfortunately your observations that these laws are somewhat unworkable, prone to misuse and practically unenforcable don't matter. They are used all the time.
As for your question about how you differentiate drug paraphernalia from scientific equipment, generally its just social factors. Guy in a university is scientific equipment, guy with cornrows has drug paraphernalia. Usually though, its just a charge that they use to convict you as an extra ding along with your drug possesion, as essentially every tmie you possess drugs you also possess paraphernalia by definition. It can also be used to convict someone without drugs they want to get- lighter with tar on it, needle found on your floork, et cet.
But the real answer for this and every similar question (in this case generally when no drugs are obviously present) is "you open your mouth". People always talk to cops, and this is how they get convicted. "yeah, officer I smell like weed cuz we smoked it earlier, but I wasn't selling it and I never smoke it usually. I don't have any more, we used it all- sure you can search... yeah that's the lighter I used, see, no pot left!" Then they're convicted for a paraphernalia charge that is more serious than the drug charge would have been. "people talk" is the reason many of the assurances people give on this forum about "they can't convict you for that" are wrong. Cops get everyone to say just about anything, as a rule.
If you look at the statute there are more details I left out which will give you some of the ways the distinction is made practically.
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nooneman


Registered: 04/24/09
Posts: 14,700
Loc: Utah
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: johnm214]
#13069860 - 08/18/10 04:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Spores are perfectly legal in the US except for California, Georgia and Idaho. Also, OP is in Canada, not the US. So, citing US laws is pretty useless. In Canada, they are even more legal. Spores don't count as criminal tools or as paraphernalia, even in the US. http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_law.shtml
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: johnm214]
#13069939 - 08/18/10 04:41 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: As for your question about how you differentiate drug paraphernalia from scientific equipment, generally its just social factors. Guy in a university is scientific equipment, guy with cornrows has drug paraphernalia.
C'mon, that's some BS reasoning. Who's to say what the true intention is? This isn't the minority report. You can't draw the conclusion that somebody has the intent to manufacture a controlled substance by the spore syringe he orders through the mail. It may raise reasonable suspicion, but it's not a probable cause and the law doesn't serve justice by infringing upon this person's liberty because of a spore syringe. Drug paraphernalia my ass.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 8 days
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> C'mon, that's some BS reasoning. Who's to say what the true intention is?
Welcome to the 'War on Drugs' in the US. Full of BS reasoning. As to your question, it is a jury that decides what the true intention was. Of course, it will never get that far. Instead, the prosecutor will trump up the charges so that you plead down to something reasonable.
> the law doesn't serve justice by infringing upon this person's liberty
By making drugs illegal, a person's liberty has been tossed into the sewer. All the system cares about is maintaining the status quo to pay for the judges, the prisons, the lawyers, the cops, etc... Again, welcome to the 'War on Drugs' in the US.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: Seuss]
#13070806 - 08/18/10 08:10 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I sure hope this system crashes ASAP because it's rotten inside.
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Libertycapper
Doctor Banner



Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 688
Loc: British Columbia
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just so all my american friends know, canadian law allows evidence that was obtained illegaly to be used as evidence if a person in charged with an indictible offence, which is similar to a felony charge in the states. a summary conviction would be par with a misdemeanor and would include less serious offences. and back in the 1980's there was much scandal because it was discovered that....ready for this.....the RCMP had opened peoples mail illegaly. its dejavu for any of the older canadians on these boards!
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: nooneman]
#13072247 - 08/19/10 04:52 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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> C'mon, that's some BS reasoning. Who's to say what the true intention is?
As Seuss said, the reasoning isn't relevant. Your going to have to convince a jury that for the first time in history you randomly decided to order a syringe with spores of illegal mushrooms. You have no microscope and no education in mycology nor suitable microscopic-mycology texts. You have a computer full of shroomery posts and tek's.
You have drug paraphernalia.
(Most important, you've told the cop that's what it was for)
Quote:
nooneman said: Spores are perfectly legal in the US except for California, Georgia and Idaho. Also, OP is in Canada, not the US. In Canada, they are even more legal. Spores don't count as criminal tools or as paraphernalia, even in the US. http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_law.shtml
A better way to put it is that spores are perfectly "not prohibited per se" in the US.
Quote:
So, citing US laws is pretty useless.
Please read the thread. I stated that in the US such things could be prosecuted as drug paraphernalia, criminal tools, et cet. Someone challenged me to provide the statutes. I did.
At no point was it represented that those statutes provided authority to prosecute in the instant case.
Furthermore, Canadian federal law was previously cited to similar effect.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: As for your question about how you differentiate drug paraphernalia from scientific equipment, generally its just social factors. Guy in a university is scientific equipment, guy with cornrows has drug paraphernalia.
C'mon, that's some BS reasoning. Who's to say what the true intention is? This isn't the minority report. You can't draw the conclusion that somebody has the intent to manufacture a controlled substance by the spore syringe he orders through the mail. It may raise reasonable suspicion, but it's not a probable cause and the law doesn't serve justice by infringing upon this person's liberty because of a spore syringe. Drug paraphernalia my ass.
along with my other reply and seuss's response, you should consider that your response presumes the only evidence present is the spore syringe. If they have enough evidence to charge the offense, they have enough to search, and they will find more evidence.
Regardless of what innocent explanations are possible, when some detective gets on the stand and the trial judge tells the jury this man is an expert, and the man says in his long experience that these items are only consistant with drug production, your lucky your ass isn't going down for manufacturing.
Lets face it: the guy in this case was guilty, this can be proven to a jury's satisfaction, and assurances of innocent explanations inconsistant to the evidence inevitably present even if the guy doesn't talk to the cops, is irrelevant.
Quote:
AlteredAgain said: I sure hope this system crashes ASAP because it's rotten inside.
Agreed. Hell, I think its rotten on the outside too: the citezins don't even know what the law is and sure as hell don't know what "drugs" are or what the effects of their prohibition are.
The whole thing is ridiculous and counter-productive- not the least effect of which is the creation of a whole generation of individuals who resent the police and are not eager to assist them.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: johnm214]
#13072253 - 08/19/10 05:01 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: you should consider that your response presumes the only evidence present is the spore syringe.
i meant nothing else but that. simply that the possession of a magic mushroom spore syringe is not a crime. that is if you do not live in CA, GA, or ID. it can certainly be used against a person, but in itself does not break the law.
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johnm214



Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 17,582
Loc: Americas
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Quote:
AlteredAgain said:
Quote:
johnm214 said: you should consider that your response presumes the only evidence present is the spore syringe.
i meant nothing else but that. simply that the possession of a magic mushroom spore syringe is not a crime. that is if you do not live in CA, GA, or ID. it can certainly be used against a person, but in itself does not break the law.
generally true, but this is misleading because this situation does not exist in pracitce.
In reality, people who possesed a syringe have also ordered it and have a purpose for it, and this almost certainly does make it illegal and does make its possesion both a crime and evidence of a crime.
The problem is that people presume that since it is not per se illegal that when the fuzz knows they have such that they won't be charged or convicted of manufacturing and given a mandatory minimum of years in jail or busted for the syringe itself as paraphernalia or criminal tools.
In reality, since those who possess syringes are almost always guilty, I would imagine, of attempted manufacture at the least, they are not in a good possesion to start making demands of the police lest they encourage a warrant or indictment.
Best is to shut your mouth.
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AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist



Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
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Re: RCMP at my door [Re: johnm214]
#13072846 - 08/19/10 09:56 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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then it might be a smart thing to do to have spore syringes mailed to a friend's address who isn't growing or otherwise doing anything illegal so that you can be outraged without fear of your activities being traceable in case police starts knocking on the door trying to bring their drug war to your home.
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Dickhead
2 Times


Registered: 01/24/05
Posts: 28,769
Loc: groin
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Being Cautious AS IF, it was Illegal is always the best route.
-------------------- Multiplied
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ChronicCluster
Lord Cephalopod is Reborn!




Registered: 04/28/10
Posts: 1,348
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
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Quote:
Anonymous said: Indeed it did, I was looking at a year just for the spores but I was able to pass it off as sporeworks shipping me the wrong stuff when I ordered King Oyster spores ^.^
Buy King Oyster spores. Buy it yesterday.
Cover your ass.
-------------------- This site needs some submissions. You should probably help out... NawMean?
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