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 Qballs
Vibes Connoisseur
Registered: 05/30/10
Posts: 391
Loc: Dick Lentils
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 Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will?  [Re: deff]
#13042023 - 08/12/10 03:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
i think the debate can be ended by asking: "what is it that would have free will?"
upon not finding this entity, there really is no question any more 
People who believe in free will would answer humans. 
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More than treasures found, its just been knowing you.
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 deff
just love everyone
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 9,428
Loc: clarity 
Last seen: 36 seconds
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: Qballs]
#13042209 - 08/12/10 03:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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a human is just a mental imputation on to many parts, it's unfindable upon analysis
same goes for a doer, an agent, a self... etc - there is no discrete independent entity - everything is interdependent and selfless
without a doer, who is it that's free or not? if nothing is independent, and no thing arose on it's own, then doesn't this answer the question? (or at least invalidate the assumptions inherit in the question?)
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wondercat
Dashing
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Posts: 476
Loc: 
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13042769 - 08/12/10 05:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh yes, of course, who hasn't had their beliefs challenged?
But your reality is subject to change at any moment, just like your state of mind.
When i believed in the easter bunny, santa, and the tooth fairy they were part of my reality. I believed them to be there, and they were.
Its kinda like how God is a huge part of life for a very religious person but they just don't exist in the mind of an atheist.
A believer in fate will live their life in a certain way just like a believer in free will will live their life in their own way.
Those who haven't pondered over fate/freewill may not question their actions as much as a beliver in free will but i can't say that for sure, because i have pondered.
...and i continue to ponder.
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it truly is an illusion- your senses are just perceiving the varying vibrations in different ways- its holography; a representation.
"Nothing" is easy - Mooji
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 ModusPwnd
Stranger
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: wondercat]
#13042792 - 08/12/10 05:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
When i believed in the easter bunny, santa, and the tooth fairy they were part of my reality. I believed them to be there, and they were.
I dont think they were there. How about somebody who gets shot in the back, he believes hes not going to get shot in the back - but gets shot nonetheless.
Perception is not reality. In fact, I would define reality as that which exists regardless of perception. There is just too much evidence out there that we do not make our own reality.
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husk
Stranger
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13043293 - 08/12/10 07:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think eventually each soul finds its way to the ultimate destination. Free will only determines how long it takes to get there.
kinda like Kain's spin on time in the blood omen series. I.E that you can re-route a river and change its direction all you want but it will eventually head out to the sea.
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husk
Stranger
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13043297 - 08/12/10 07:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ModusPwnd said:
Quote:
When i believed in the easter bunny, santa, and the tooth fairy they were part of my reality. I believed them to be there, and they were.
I dont think they were there. How about somebody who gets shot in the back, he believes hes not going to get shot in the back - but gets shot nonetheless.
Perception is not reality. In fact, I would define reality as that which exists regardless of perception. There is just too much evidence out there that we do not make our own reality.
it is possible he wakes up and says "what a crazy dream" and no inception just re-stated things trippers (especially on datura) have thought about for years.
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wondercat
Dashing
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 Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13044148 - 08/12/10 10:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ModusPwnd said:
Quote:
When i believed in the easter bunny, santa, and the tooth fairy they were part of my reality. I believed them to be there, and they were.
I dont think they were there. How about somebody who gets shot in the back, he believes hes not going to get shot in the back - but gets shot nonetheless.
Perception is not reality. In fact, I would define reality as that which exists regardless of perception. There is just too much evidence out there that we do not make our own reality.
im sure that once he is shot, he knows and believes he is shot.
How would you know anything about reality without perception? We are connected to this world mainly though our senses and that is how we know our reality, how we percieve it.
What evidence? I've found that we don't know much, but we do like naming things, so we can use our big words to explain things which we don't know much about.
for example, when i ask someone what a leaf is they would say its made of cells. cells are made of organelles which are composed of molecules. Molecules are made of atoms, which are made of a nucleus, protons, and neutrons, which all have an electromagnetic charge that binds them. Protons and neutrons are just subatomic particles, and what is that? The smallest unit you can explain, basically. you can only break things down to a certain extent. But we know nothing about what it actually is or where it comes from.
So my reality isnt based on evidence of what is there regardless of perception. My reality is what my senses and mind percieve.
also, i would like to say that i think reality has different levels - physical, spiritual, other dimensions perhaps....
but thats just my opinion, feel free to argue against it.
//end rant]
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it truly is an illusion- your senses are just perceiving the varying vibrations in different ways- its holography; a representation.
"Nothing" is easy - Mooji
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ModusPwnd
Stranger
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: wondercat]
#13045348 - 08/13/10 08:41 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
How would you know anything about reality without perception?
You cant. Knowing exactly what reality is, as I have defined it, is impossible (probably).
If you define reality as that which you perceive, then you are just defining it to be the same as perception. Why bother doing that? Also, what would you call that which exists regardless of your perception? If thats not reality, then what is it?
My perception is what my senses and mind perceive. I believe this is correlated to reality to some extent.
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wondercat
Dashing
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13047193 - 08/13/10 04:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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i would say thath that which exists regardless of perception is something i don't know, because i've percieved all my life.
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it truly is an illusion- your senses are just perceiving the varying vibrations in different ways- its holography; a representation.
"Nothing" is easy - Mooji
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ModusPwnd
Stranger
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: wondercat]
#13047278 - 08/13/10 05:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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You can still label it though, even if you've never known it. I dont know it either, though I do have some guesses.
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell 
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13049423 - 08/14/10 04:30 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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"All roads lead to Rome", but there are many roads. 
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The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
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NetDiver
Wandering Mindfuck
Registered: 08/24/09
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: Buckthorn]
#13049443 - 08/14/10 04:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Enpo said:
It's been proven that the brain decides what the being is going to do before it has done it.
Free will isn't so free, but it is OUR BRAIN Deciding. Not us.. We're not in control
That hardly matters though, considering we are our brains (as far as we can tell). That's exactly what you'd expect.
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Ahimsa
µdose
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: deff]
#13049539 - 08/14/10 06:21 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
a human is just a mental imputation on to many parts, it's unfindable upon analysis
same goes for a doer, an agent, a self... etc - there is no discrete independent entity - everything is interdependent and selfless
without a doer, who is it that's free or not? if nothing is independent, and no thing arose on it's own, then doesn't this answer the question? (or at least invalidate the assumptions inherit in the question?)
Yes, but when the body acts due to mental activity, then the question still arises: "Does the activity depend on choice or not?" Ie, choice calls for will to choose, in as far that the body acts the mind determines what actions will and what actions won't manifest. Isn't it better to say that free will is bound by the limitations inherent in the body and the external situation, or, that fate can be altered in as much as the course of action is determined upon by choice over the given options available in the given situation.
I believe, like everything else, fate and free will are mutually dependent and therefor i don't believe they are absolutes, in the same way that i don't see a self or essence as an absolute, the same way you do.
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Scantraxx
Wait........ what?
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: Ahimsa]
#13049556 - 08/14/10 06:37 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fate and free will are just human constructs, If we chose to just do nothing ever again then does that mean it is free will, fate or simply just "being"?
I don't know I think this is an unaswerable question because it is something we probably couldn't comprehend in our conciousness, maybe we could understand through our sub-concious, or maybe it is even more intricate than that. Haha.
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Smitington
Unidentified Flying Object
Registered: 08/10/09
Posts: 1,408
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: Scantraxx]
#13050373 - 08/14/10 12:06 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I used to think about this alot. For me it came down to the laws of physics, since everything (including our mind) is subject to them. A simple understanding of physics might lead one to believe there is no free will since it might be believed that all matter and energy is confined to an inescapeable set of rules and therefore can never do anything different than what causality will eventually lead it to do. Modern physics however is not so sure that the laws of physics really work this way. On the sub atomic scale, stuff isn't so predicteable. This might lead to the possiblity that free will does indeed exist.
Eventually, I came to the conclusion that the debate is incredibly meaningless. Whether free will exists or not, you still have to (or feel like you have to) make your own decisions, and go through life the same. I don't see how one's opinion of free will would have any affect on how they go about living their life. Completely meaningless.
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Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: Smitington]
#13050562 - 08/14/10 12:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Smitington said:
I used to think about this alot. For me it came down to the laws of physics, since everything (including our mind) is subject to them. A simple understanding of physics might lead one to believe there is no free will since it might be believed that all matter and energy is confined to an inescapeable set of rules and therefore can never do anything different than what causality will eventually lead it to do. Modern physics however is not so sure that the laws of physics really work this way. On the sub atomic scale, stuff isn't so predicteable. This might lead to the possiblity that free will does indeed exist.
Eventually, I came to the conclusion that the debate is incredibly meaningless. Whether free will exists or not, you still have to (or feel like you have to) make your own decisions, and go through life the same. I don't see how one's opinion of free will would have any affect on how they go about living their life. Completely meaningless.
 
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The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: The Great Debate: Fate or free will? [Re: husk]
#13051636 - 08/14/10 05:25 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
I think eventually each soul finds its way to the ultimate destination.
See my latest thread.
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