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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13338814 - 10/15/10 04:48 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> Prove it! I've heard this tired old rhetoric over and over again but ya know what, I have never seen a communist country fail or suffer on account of lazy workers.

:rofl:

> Believe me, if there were a satisfactory [communist/socialist] state to go to, I would leave for it in a heartbeat.

There are several great communist/socialist countries to pick from.  Please go, and let us know if life there lives up to your pipe dream- North Korea, Cuba, rural China (not so much in urban China, anymore), Laos, and Vietnam.  How can these countries not be satisfactory when they have such a euphoric form of government in place?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13338849 - 10/15/10 05:17 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I've heard this tired old rhetoric over and over again but ya know what, I have never seen a communist country fail or suffer on account of lazy workers.




I would say it's long, long past time for you to provide the audience a list of specific countries (still in existence or not) you consider to be communist. While you're at it, provide a list of the ones you consider to be Socialist.







Phred


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #13341441 - 10/15/10 07:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Phred, By communist I meant any communist country including even totalitarian ones. You lived through the cold war, you ought to know who they are.

Seuss you are being ferocious. Though I would not want to live in North Korea because it is an awful country, I would probibly choose it over Charles Taylor era Liberia or Sierra Leone or Pinochet era Chile. Similarly I'd rather be in orderly dictatorial Cuba than poverty-stricken WTO-bankrupted gang-violence torn Jamaica. I would also probibly rather be in rural china than rural(tribal) Brazil or Sudan. I can have high standards because I live in a resource rich capitalist social democracy, so I think I can and should wait for a suitable country to form before I leave. It may be easy for some of you who's paradise is a shithole banana republic to find a suitable country to live in, but those of us with higher standards will not be able to find them with such cavalier ease.

I also never specified that such must be a communist state, which is something that I am more opposed to. I primarily have been using the word communist to specify cold war era states where a strong(authoritarian) central planned government was the focal point to winning soviet support for the government and this became a primary model of that type of state. I also dislike socialist models that rely on state ownership to retain worker/social ownership of means of production, which has been an explicit communist feature since it was outlined in the communist manifesto and one of the more contentious points of the publication among socialists.

However, my personal preference does not reflect on the invalidity of the arguements of yours which I have challenged you to prove.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13343114 - 10/16/10 08:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred, By communist I meant any communist country including even totalitarian ones. You lived through the cold war, you ought to know who they are.




What part of "... list of specific countries..." did I fail to make clear?

Look, komrade, I am not going to get sucked in by the standard Kollektivist practice of claiming whichever country their opponent brings up to illustrate the folly of the collectivist mindset isn't/wasn't really Communist or Socialist or Marxist-Leninist or whatever. Your claim was that you had never seen a communist country fail - or even suffer - on account of lazy workers. This statement is of course completely meaningless absent a list of countries you consider communist. So let's have that list. Next, provide us another list of countries you consider Socialist.

How hard can that be?









Phred


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #13344052 - 10/16/10 01:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I thought it was clear but any cold war era USSR state would be acceptable. After the cold war it may be a grey area, like in Vietnam/China where lots of capitalistic reforms have taken place and the economy is more mixed than not. The part that would actually make this difficult would be finding an example where you can prove that lazy workers caused significant problems. This is next to impossible since it would exclude work stoppages related to political descent or low productivity caused by other factors. Bad central planning ain't laziness, low productivity due to limited resources ain't laziness, A population like in Viet Nam where the after effects of agent orange have reduced most of the country's potently productive population to dependents isn't lazyness either.

I know some kinds of right-wing nut-bag heehaws like to claim that Greece or Spain or any other capitalist welfare state is socialist but these people are just mindless nard munchers who are trying to put aspersions on the idea of having a welfare state or a social democracy, by mentioning ones that are currently failing due to capitalist bubble schemes while neglecting to mention that ones where these schemes were not bought into are still doing fine. Please don't engage in their antics while trying to respond.

I don't see why you are reaching on this one, if this productivity reduction due to laziness is not endemic to communism/socialism than it proves my point that the whole argument that capitalism is needed to keep workers productive is a load of horse shit.

As I said earlier, capitalism rewards privilege not hard work. If you can afford to go to an expensive school and get an expensive education you can get a high paying job even if you are not remotely worth your pay. Capitalism rewards the privilege which it makes scarce while the difference in pay between two co-workers who have worked at a factory for 20 years one being a slacker and the other being industrious, is nominal (if present) especially in comparison to the factory's overpriced management.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13347371 - 10/17/10 09:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I thought it was clear but any cold war era USSR state would be acceptable.




Again, what part of "... list of specific countries..." are you having difficulty understanding? Names, dude. I want names of countries.

Quote:

I know some kinds of right-wing nut-bag heehaws like to claim that Greece or Spain or any other capitalist welfare state is socialist but these people are just mindless nard munchers who are trying to put aspersions on the idea of having a welfare state or a social democracy, by mentioning ones that are currently failing due to capitalist bubble schemes while neglecting to mention that ones where these schemes were not bought into are still doing fine.




Again, I am not asking for countries you don't consider socialist. I am asking you to provide a list of names of countries you do consider socialist. This is like pulling teeth! Why are you so afraid to back up your claims with a list of actual specific countries? As an aside, I'm sure I'm not the only rational reader here who finds it hilarious you characterize the wildly unsustainable government spending of Greece and Spain as "capitalist".

Quote:

I don't see why you are reaching on this one...




I'm not "reaching", you are dodging. Again, your claim is "I have never seen a communist country fail or suffer on account of lazy workers." As I have already pointed out, this claim is completely meaningless until you provide the audience a list of countries you believe to be communist.

Quote:

As I said earlier, capitalism rewards privilege not hard work.




You say a lot of stuff that is demonstrably untrue.







Phred


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #13348101 - 10/17/10 12:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

OK, I gave you a great many countries to choose from but you'd rather argue than make with your non existent proof or admit that your wrong. Can't say I blame you, I know it's physically impossible for you to admit you are wrong and proving something you've only ever read of happening in Atlas Shrugged is pretty difficult.

So I will give you a quick short list: Russia, GDR, Poland and Cuba.
If this problem of lazy workers is so endemic as you say you should be able to find a quick example of how these economies were effected by it. And I will give you a hint on this one, grain shortages due to political rebellion by farmers isn't laziness, neither is general strikes related to worker's demands for autonomy over the state assets they worked (solidarity movement).

Stop reaching, if this problem is so endemic you should have presented 10 examples by now. I can damn well think of 10 examples where a single capitalist greed for money has killed many people or had a negative impact on society. Hell, I can find examples where a market of them have nearly destroyed entire countries and/or the national economies. Why is this so hard for you? Far from proving that the greed of capitalists is less damaging than those of communists your stalling actually only proves that it is less common in socialist countries that greed damages the society in some way that renders it "un-workable" or whatever the fuck Seuss meant by that.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13375949 - 10/23/10 12:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Methinks that much of your fingering pointing and shouting of "greed!" is merely an external projection of your own socialist fantasies.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13376267 - 10/23/10 01:40 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

lol right there's no corruption and greed in the corporate and government sectors in capitalism.
:stonedjerk:


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13380812 - 10/24/10 03:41 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
lol right there's no corruption and greed in the corporate and government sectors in capitalism.
:stonedjerk:






Blaming the economic problems on "greed" is like blaming a plane crash on gravity.



It would be far more intelligent to examine the fact that the economy is screwed because there are central planners interfering with the market.

Real capitalism has a free market.  Your complaints have no causation in such an economy.

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13387125 - 10/25/10 08:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I think that many ideologies have people who believe that they know the one true pure form of that ideology and wish to suppress and discount all different variations of it's practice. Often these people believe in a Utopian vision which doesn't/hasn't/can't exist but are unable/unwilling to defend the reforms enacted by their movements. This doesn't matter to them since they can easily disavow these deviant forms of their ideology and even the failure of specific reforms they would envision as a part of their utopia society, as being incomplete or not enough like their golden perfect purist vision of society.

I don't want to argue with your Utopian vision, I want to argue that in comparison to the capitalist structures in our society socialist ones are as good as or better for providing for society.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13390561 - 10/26/10 02:09 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Utopian vision???


Free market economics is all about practicality dude.


It does not have a damn thing to do with fairy tale utopian bullshit.

A free economy means that people have personal liberty and the ability to benefit themselves and their community through unhindered productive activity.

Again, the present monetary system is not a product of a free market but rather central economic planning.  Central economic planning caused the fall of the U.S.S.R.

You are confused because you do not see that credit/debt based government paper is not in fact real money.

This is not a capitalist society.

If you want an example of how a more free market using sound money advances the standard of living look at the Industrial Revolution.





Edited by Mr.Al (10/26/10 02:10 PM)

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13395014 - 10/27/10 12:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

A free economy means that people have personal liberty and the ability to benefit themselves and their community through unhindered productive activity.



Firstly if that were true, it still does not mean that they will. It is equally possible that under such conditions people will fail to benefit themselves and actively try to destroy communities or hinder the options and economic possibilities of others, for their own gain.
Secondly, unhindered economic activity is a relative term, those who are what people call have nots will probibly still have the same if not more limitations on their productive activity.
Quote:

Again, the present monetary system is not a product of a free market but rather central economic planning.  Central economic planning caused the fall of the U.S.S.R.



All existing monetary systems are a product of central planning of some sort. Central planning has a great amount of flaws as an economic structure, but it was not the sole cause of the fall of the USSR. I think insisting that nations have no central monetary systems or possibly none at all (other than gold right?) to be called capitalist is a totally extreme purist Utopian and nonsensical view. I did not make nearly such purist requirements for my arguements in defending socialism in this thread and I think that the fact that you need to use these speaks to the weakness of your argument.

Quote:

You are confused because you do not see that credit/debt based government paper is not in fact real money.



In soviet countries money was issued on actual labor that was done. In effect the money was based on value that was created. Little lending or credit was created because the state simply issued the resources like dwellings or businesses to the care of people under whatever terms and conditions the government decided were needed. Credit and debt are something that is prolific under capitalism and it's use in all manner of financial scheme is most definitely a capitalist phenomenon.

Your claims that central banks and credit/debt are socialist conspiracies are complete nonsense.

Quote:

If you want an example of how a more free market using sound money advances the standard of living look at the Industrial Revolution.



I hate to break it to you but a lot of the industries that came up in the industrial revolution were fostered by Merchantalist capitalism, not free markets. Free markets were only endorsed after industries were nurtured and established under protectionism.
Also I'd like to know what history book you are reading about the industrial revolution exactly, the standards of living for people were dramatically dropping particularly compared to relative wealth of the British nation, people had longer days working in worse conditions from younger ages. Many farm workers were starved and displaced by sudden changes caused free market changes like the corn laws for example, while their excess unemployment drove conditions in the labor market down further. It was not until a labor movement came along that standards of living began to see a real rise.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13395276 - 10/27/10 01:22 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

There are some things about a free market that you might have not thought about.

Money in a free market is whatever that market decides it to be.


The most important idea that I would like you to consider is that the people do not benefit from having a central authority determining what is used as money.  Do you disagree?


People who work for a living need to be careful about how they spend their money.  Government is wasteful in how it spends money because it is always spending everyone else's money.

Therefore, the more government spends money the more poor you will become...


If you don't like the industrial revolution I suppose you could try the horse and buggy thing...

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OfflineNexius
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Re: Socialism [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13395287 - 10/27/10 01:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Mr.Al said:
There are some things about a free market that you might have not thought about.

Money in a free market is whatever that market decides it to be.


The most important idea that I would like you to consider is that the people do not benefit from having a central authority determining what is used as money.  Do you disagree?


People who work for a living need to be careful about how they spend their money.  Government is wasteful in how it spends money because it is always spending everyone else's money.

Therefore, the more government spends money the more poor you will become...


If you don't like the industrial revolution I suppose you could try the horse and buggy thing...





I do believe that we're going past the industrial revolution at this point, moving on to the next age.


--------------------
Light travels faster than sound, which is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Socialism [Re: Nexius]
    #13395310 - 10/27/10 01:32 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

We still have scarcity in this economy.

As long as scarcity exists in the economy the unit of exchange is not immune to math.

I stand by the idea that the people do not benefit from utilizing government fiat.  Any fools who wish to debate that can post in some of my other threads though...

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13395407 - 10/27/10 01:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

government fiat is not socialism and the industrial revolution was not a product of free markets.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13395431 - 10/27/10 01:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Karl Marx called for a central bank to control the money supply.

The Industrial Revolution was made possible by modern manufacturing practices like the assembly line and
SOUND MONEY.

Do you think that fiat is a superior medium of exchange?

Edited by Mr.Al (10/27/10 01:57 PM)

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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Socialism [Re: Mr.Al]
    #13399357 - 10/28/10 06:07 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:


Blaming the economic problems on "greed" is like blaming a plane crash on gravity.



It would be far more intelligent to examine the fact that the economy is screwed because there are central planners interfering with the market.

Real capitalism has a free market.  Your complaints have no causation in such an economy.



this sort of dogmatism claiming that the market solves everything is a psychological loophole, sure we often blame everything on capitalism. but so do you. there is a middle ground, we should discuss what system is better, there is corruption in a free market system, for example, violation of anti-trust laws.
Quote:

Karl Marx called for a central bank to control the money supply.

The Industrial Revolution was made possible by modern manufacturing practices like the assembly line and
SOUND MONEY.

Do you think that fiat is a superior medium of exchange?



i have told you a million fucking time, the central bank in a communist country lends money to public government controlled corporations, it doesn't have the same role as in a capitalist one. there is inflation in cuba, but the point of the inflation is not to stimulate teh economy and it doesn't do so, unless they of course, have to live next to capitalist neighbours.
Quote:


Again, I am not asking for countries you don't consider socialist. I am asking you to provide a list of names of countries you do consider socialist. This is like pulling teeth! Why are you so afraid to back up your claims with a list of actual specific countries? As an aside, I'm sure I'm not the only rational reader here who finds it hilarious you characterize the wildly unsustainable government spending of Greece and Spain as "capitalist".



capitalism means that the means of production are privately own, government spending has nothing to do with socialism or capitalism, it may have to do with social-democracy, but it's very hard for you to get that military spending, is fucking spending too. and social democracy are pretty pissed about that too.

I can't remember who talked about it, but the reason most communist want to obliterate all capitalist economies on this planet is simple, they cannot co-exist, kruschev is a revisionist. communism calls for a monolithic world with no state, thus no standing army, it is the core of our ideology to disarm mankind or at least, find a way to make war as inexistent as possible. we believe war harms mankind and thus, there should be a new world order where war does not exist. or at least it should be against aliens. according to our theory, a communist state will go through 3 phases, proletarian rule, socialism, communism. if a capitalist state exist somewhere and could threaten our own state, we will never be able to jump into communism where there is no standing army, and in fact, few or no cops. there are still mental institutions though

many socialist differ on theory however.

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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Socialism [Re: communeart]
    #13410333 - 10/30/10 10:50 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It may prove useful to focus on one particular idea at a time:

Money's primary  purpose is to facilitate indirect exchange in a modern economy where each individuals engages in more specific economic production.  This facilitates a great increase in production overall and therefore allows for a higher standard of living.

I am fairly certain you would have no argument with the above statements.

Money has another role besides it's use as a means of indirect exchange.  That role is a store of value or wealth.

When the money supply is inflated the store of wealth is undermined.  This is a big problem because the accumulation of wealth allows for future investment (more efficient larger and more complex production) to occur.


It is in the interest of the government to have control over the money supply so they can set themselves up as the only "legal" counterfeiter so as to gain the full benefit of spending money that belongs to everyone else.


We can certainly talk about credit based money and how an unrestrained expansion of said money also undermines the savings base if you would like.

It does not make sense to remain polarized in "ideological positions" without examining how we arrived at our point of view.

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