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jokefox
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Registered: 12/22/09
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pasteurization problems
#13019108 - 08/07/10 09:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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im not new to this ive been using the oven tek for bulk for a while im going to lay out my procedure if someone can point something out that would be great
i mix my substrate (coco coir,perlite,verm,coffee grounds,and some gypsum(drywall) and 2% straw , so i can see when everything is really mixed
i hydrate with 20%coffee and 80% water to perfect moisture content then i stuff it all in a oven bag (ill put as much as i can before it doesent fit in the oven)
i then set the oven on 170F and wait for the center of the bag to hit 165-174 then start my 3 hour countdown
it always comes out smelling a bit wierd , but before when the bags got to 190 they smelt different (worse but never contaminated)
i checked my pan grow and my 3 cube bins. 5 days in and they stick ,really bad i think it could be trich
any suggestions
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Doc_T
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Registered: 03/06/09
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13019239 - 08/07/10 09:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Skip coffee.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Doc_T]
#13019250 - 08/07/10 09:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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that was my thoughts
fucking coffee fucking up grows
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Doc_T
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13019261 - 08/07/10 09:43 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Only change one thing at a time per batch. Eliminate coffee from one. Leave coffee in, change temp. Or try the water bath method RR uses.
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Doc_T]
#13019272 - 08/07/10 09:45 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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i prefer oven style
but i can be sure its coffee fucking me up
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Doc_T
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13019311 - 08/07/10 09:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jokefox said: i can be sure its coffee fucking me up
That sure, are you?
-------------------- You make it all possible. Doesn't it feel good?
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Doc_T]
#13019322 - 08/07/10 09:58 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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ya
everytime i use it something doesent work last time i used straight horse shit and got 2 ounces i guess i should have gone with my gut on the pan grow
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RogerRabbit
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13019466 - 08/07/10 10:30 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Two things.
1. Don't use the oven for pasteurization. Use water as the heat-transfer media.
2. Don't use liquid coffee in anything that doesn't get sterilized. Liquid coffee will contaminate easily if it's not kept totally sterile until fully colonized. Spent coffee grounds are OK in a bulk substrate, but not liquid coffee. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: RogerRabbit]
#13019496 - 08/07/10 10:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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like i said its the liquid coffee
RR i think the oven is good to go because the middle of the bag does get to the right heat and since the substrate is wet , water is still the heat transfer
besides i dont have a big enough pot to do the substrate im not doing a little bitch 7 quart mono
im doing 30-45 quarts a time
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RogerRabbit
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13019518 - 08/07/10 10:39 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Then go get a bigger pot. The oven takes too long to heat the substrate. You want to heat it rapidly, and then keep the core at 140F for ninety minutes, no longer. The oven is so slow, your substrate is too hot for too long. You're partially sterilizing, which is making the substrate more susceptible to contamination, even without the liquid coffee. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: RogerRabbit]
#13019524 - 08/07/10 10:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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that makes a lot of sense
can i use oven bags for the pot still or should i use a pillow case
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wygram
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13020041 - 08/08/10 12:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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That is a matter of preference.
I find it easier to mix everything and moisten to field capacity before loading into water proof oven or spawn bags for pasteurization.
-------------------- Changing your mind is one of the best ways of finding out whether or not you still have one.
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: wygram]
#13020528 - 08/08/10 05:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm with wygram on this one,bring to field capacity and then use your oven/autoclavable bags.
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7 days without waves makes one weak!
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FractalXplora
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you simply cant go wrong with water at 170oC, pour onto sub, chuck it in a big bucket lid on 2 hours? will pasterize perfect every time and sit at 150 for ages!
forget the oven, too expensive and pointless:)
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Quote:
FractalXplora said: you simply cant go wrong with water at 170oC, pour onto sub, chuck it in a big bucket lid on 2 hours? will pasterize perfect every time and sit at 150 for ages!
forget the oven, too expensive and pointless:)
Sure you can.For coir/vermiculite the boiling water in a bucket method works great,but that's because coco coir is pretty dam resistant to contamination (unless your coir was treated with trich).
Try the boiling water bucket method on some horse poo...I will almost guarantee a fail.
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7 days without waves makes one weak!
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FractalXplora
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Quote:
Try the boiling water bucket method on some horse poo...I will almost guarantee a fail.
dude i always do this method it with straight horse poo and verm, sometimes poo/coir/verm/coffee mix, never had any problems. Surley the sub medium doesn't matter?!?
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Quote:
FractalXplora said:
Quote:
Try the boiling water bucket method on some horse poo...I will almost guarantee a fail.
dude i always do this method it with straight horse poo and verm, sometimes poo/coir/verm/coffee mix, never had any problems. Surley the sub medium doesn't matter?!?
I don't know man,seeing as how coir is pretty damn resistant to contamination,but things like poo,if you don't properly pasteurize,they will contaminate with the ease.
I am not saying it hasn't worked for you,but I wouldn't go around advising people to use the boiling water method with substrates such as poo,coffee,etc.
Those substrates are best left to be properly pasteurized.
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7 days without waves makes one weak!
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FractalXplora
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Quote:
Those substrates are best left to be properly pasteurized.
As of course they are! I check with meat thermoter every half hour sits between 140- 160 absolutly no problems, which in essence in a proper pasterization. So I am gonna advise it as it always works a treat.
No waiting for the sub center to reach the right temps, 3 hours in an oven.!/!? That seems like a dodgy method to me, plus expensive.
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Numinosum
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Quote:
FractalXplora said: you simply cant go wrong with water at 170oC, pour onto sub, chuck it in a big bucket lid on 2 hours? will pasterize perfect every time and sit at 150 for ages!
forget the oven, too expensive and pointless:)
Can you explain to me how you have water at 170 deg C?
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
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FractalXplora
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13020866 - 08/08/10 09:03 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Can you explain to me how you have water at 170 deg C?
Cause when you add it to the cold straw the temp drops 5-10 degrees quite quickly, give it ten minutes and you'll be sitting pretty at 160 to 140oC easy for 2 hours, if it goes too low, boil a kettle and dump it in to bring it back up.
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RogerRabbit
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Quote:
Mad_Hatter2004 said:
Quote:
FractalXplora said: you simply cant go wrong with water at 170oC, pour onto sub, chuck it in a big bucket lid on 2 hours? will pasterize perfect every time and sit at 150 for ages!
forget the oven, too expensive and pointless:)
Sure you can.For coir/vermiculite the boiling water in a bucket method works great,but that's because coco coir is pretty dam resistant to contamination (unless your coir was treated with trich).
Try the boiling water bucket method on some horse poo...I will almost guarantee a fail.
Note that he said pour 170F water on the substrate. That's different from pouring boiling water on it.
The bottom line is that any method that gets the substrate to 140F to 160F and holds it there for an hour to 90 minutes is going to work. I prefer to get the substrate to the correct moisture content first, and then pasteurize in bags or jars. However, the bottom line is to maintain the correct temperature range for the correct time, regardless of how one goes about it. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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FractalXplora
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: RogerRabbit]
#13020973 - 08/08/10 09:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Note that he said pour 170F water on the substrate. That's different from pouring boiling water on it.
The bottom line is that any method that gets the substrate to 140F to 160F and holds it there for an hour to 90 minutes is going to work. I prefer to get the substrate to the correct moisture content first, and then pasteurize in bags or jars. However, the bottom line is to maintain the correct temperature range for the correct time, regardless of how one goes about it. RR
I rest my case.
I suppose the only disadvantage is with this method your leeching out some of the good nutes when you pour off the excess water, but that goes on my tomato plants, they love that sweet poo water .
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Numinosum
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You are using C? like Celsius? Or do you mean Fahrenheit?
There is no case to rest. You said you used 170 deg C water. My question was:
How the hell are you able to obtain "170oC" water?
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
Edited by Numinosum (08/08/10 01:26 PM)
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Base Icks



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13021856 - 08/08/10 01:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Its obviously a typo. You would have to have the water under some pretty high pressure to get it that hot. Its not very feasible.
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FractalXplora
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13022198 - 08/08/10 03:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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sorry stoned typo, yes i mean Fahrenheit of course
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Numinosum
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So you use that for just for straw? Or do you find it works for anything?
Also are you just using the correct amount of water for hydration, or do you need to remove excess?
It seems to me that a heavier substrate would require more energy to heat it up.
IE a 20deg drop in the water temp would in turn only raise the substrate temp about 20deg.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
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Base Icks



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13022361 - 08/08/10 03:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think its a mass thing.
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Numinosum
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13022389 - 08/08/10 03:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well weight is relative to mass.
In this hobby I think it is ok to interchange mass with weight.
But either way, you know what I mean.
The energy required to heat the substrate comes from the water. I understand that the substrate requires less energy to heat than water, but if you include loss through air, I feel like it wouldn't be adequate.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13022473 - 08/08/10 04:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well people do it here all the time. Take Damion's coir tek for example.
I tried it with horse manure. I did the manure weight to coir weight in the same recipe ratio. The boiling water was a bit to hot, temp went up to 180f. I poured it into a tub and spread it out for a few minutes and it dropped to 160 and I put it back in the bucket. Stayed at 160 for 2 hours. Next time I'll be using 180F water to start with.
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Numinosum
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13022491 - 08/08/10 04:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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If it works it works. Just mathematically doesn't sound right.
I could do the math, except I don't know the specific heat capacity of the substrate.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
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Numinosum
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13022670 - 08/08/10 05:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok so if I were to guess that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is .5 (in calories) and in the coir tek the water content is about a 1:4 ratio of the substrate.
So scale it down to 1g of H2O to 4g of substrate. Each deg C of the water would heat each gram of the substrate 2 deg C(while the H2O loses 1 deg C). So each gram of water heats 4g of substrate .5 deg C (for each deg C). So lets say the substrate starts at 37 deg C, which is high, then it needs to be heated to at least 60deg C. that means that the H2O would need to be 106deg C in order to bring the 37deg C substrate to pasteurization temp.
Obviously we can't have 106 deg C water so in my mind, the pouring of hot water is not reliable.
Now my math may not be right considering the specific heat capacity I used is made up lol.
But consideration also needs to be made to the loss of heat in steam, and to the bucket itself.
IMO proper pasteurization needs a continuous heat source. Unless that is, that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is significantly lower.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
Edited by Numinosum (08/08/10 05:19 PM)
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hamloaf
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13023484 - 08/08/10 08:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I tried it with horse manure. I did the manure weight to coir weight in the same recipe ratio. The boiling water was a bit to hot, temp went up to 180f. I poured it into a tub and spread it out for a few minutes and it dropped to 160 and I put it back in the bucket. Stayed at 160 for 2 hours. Next time I'll be using 180F water to start with.
When adding manure (cow, horse, or chicken) and spent coffee grounds to my coir/verm(gypsum), I bring the manure and additives to field capacity and pasteurize them separately, using water as the heat medium. I do the coir/verm(gypsum) in the bucket via the tek, then mix them together once they have both cooled to room temperatures. HL
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FractalXplora
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: hamloaf]
#13024598 - 08/08/10 11:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
k so if I were to guess that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is .5 (in calories) and in the coir tek the water content is about a 1:4 ratio of the substrate.
So scale it down to 1g of H2O to 4g of substrate. Each deg C of the water would heat each gram of the substrate 2 deg C(while the H2O loses 1 deg C). So each gram of water heats 4g of substrate .5 deg C (for each deg C). So lets say the substrate starts at 37 deg C, which is high, then it needs to be heated to at least 60deg C. that means that the H2O would need to be 106deg C in order to bring the 37deg C substrate to pasteurization temp.
Obviously we can't have 106 deg C water so in my mind, the pouring of hot water is not reliable.
Now my math may not be right considering the specific heat capacity I used is made up lol.
But consideration also needs to be made to the loss of heat in steam, and to the bucket itself.
IMO proper pasteurization needs a continuous heat source. Unless that is, that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is significantly lower.
dude you've lost me, just chuck that 170 F water in a bucket and walk away.
works with straw, poo and anything else for that matter, your over complicating it. ya its basically damians5050''s coir tek!
--------------------

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jokefox
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hes talking about he transfer
whats not to get
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Javadog
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13024669 - 08/09/10 12:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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You know, what we need is a device that allows us to set the temp that it will heat water to.
Are there rice cookers or some such that will do this?
I still find pasteurizing to be the most attention intensive procedure thus far. (esp. since I built my flowhood)
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Javadog]
#13024718 - 08/09/10 12:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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akira made something really smart i just dont got the $$ yet
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hamloaf
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Quote:
dude you've lost me, just chuck that 170 F water in a bucket and walk away.
works with straw, poo and anything else for that matter, your over complicating it. ya its basically damians5050''s coir tek!
I pasteurize my manure(s) and other additives using water as my heat transfer medium in 4 gallon spawn bags inside of my P23 pot on top of my stove. I slip the spawn bag through the hole of a 15 pound weight so that when the water boils, the substrate and the bag do no shift around during pasteurization and allowing extra moisture to get into my bag and ruin field capacity.

I then place a meat thermometer through the hole of the weight and into the core of the substrate in the bag.

I then turn the stove onto high and wait for my meat thermometer to read 170 degrees ferinheight, then I turn my stove off and put on the lid. When I come back 90 minutes later, my thermometer reads 150 degrees every time.
I pasteurize, separate, my manures and additive from my coir/verm/(gypsum) to be able to worry that much less about contaminates. Damion5050's coir tek is not a precisely tempered tek, meaning the hot water used in the tek is just boiled water. No measure to gauge the temperature precisely is used. No need to either because, as well all know, coir is much more contaminate resistant then manures and additives. Therefore I opt to properly and precisely pasteurize my manures and additives before I mix them into my coir/verm(gypsum). HL
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danstice
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Javadog]
#13024846 - 08/09/10 01:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said: You know, what we need is a device that allows us to set the temp that it will heat water to.
Are there rice cookers or some such that will do this?
I still find pasteurizing to be the most attention intensive procedure thus far. (esp. since I built my flowhood)
How about an immersion water heater?
I thought about making a pasteurization tub out of a horse or cattle trough that was well insulated and had an adjustable heater installed. I planned on installing an immersion heater from an old electric water heater. Then install some sort of pump to slightly agitate the water for even heating of the entire trough. It depends on the size of the trough, but I'm sure you could pasteurize a lot of substrate quickly using something like this. 
or maybe something like this would be useful? :
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=0304600
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: danstice]
#13024915 - 08/09/10 01:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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if i was to seal the bags after pasteurization should i suck the air out or leave some in
should i seal it before or after it cools and then how should i store it after i seal it
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FractalXplora
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13024967 - 08/09/10 02:17 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Quote:
How about an immersion water heater?
I thought about making a pasteurization tub out of a horse or cattle trough that was well insulated and had an adjustable heater installed. I planned on installing an immersion heater from an old electric water heater. Then install some sort of pump to slightly agitate the water for even heating of the entire trough. It depends on the size of the trough, but I'm sure you could pasteurize a lot of substrate quickly using something like this. 
or maybe something like this would be useful? :
heres great bulk pasterization tek. so simple! looks great! get the pdf top of this post.
--------------------

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jokefox
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yes that is a great method akira mad a mod of it i guess with a 50 gallon rough neck instead of a drum and instead of the sacks he used 3ml bags
i like the 3ml bags more , because you can seal them after and store them
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FractalXplora
Grainiack




Registered: 02/11/06
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13025018 - 08/09/10 02:41 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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sure thing just read that tek this morning, when i got more space, and need more edibles, am deffo gonna build one of them, totally fool proof.
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Javadog
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Some great ideas here.
I am doing something much like Hamloaf right now.
(but I am adding putting the bag *through* the weight is a good addition ;0)
When I have the dough, something like the immersion heater might be interesting.
(what was the "akira" device? ....I will Google)
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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Base Icks



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Javadog]
#13025542 - 08/09/10 08:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Its on here some where JD.
Akira is a member, been around a long time. I think I saw a link to it before, cant remember what it was now.
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Javadog
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13025549 - 08/09/10 08:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ah, I see. I will keep an eye open for it. THX!
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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moonwalker1
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Javadog]
#13025655 - 08/09/10 09:20 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13025825 - 08/09/10 10:09 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Numinosum said:
Quote:
FractalXplora said: you simply cant go wrong with water at 170oC, pour onto sub, chuck it in a big bucket lid on 2 hours? will pasterize perfect every time and sit at 150 for ages!
forget the oven, too expensive and pointless:)
Can you explain to me how you have water at 170 deg C?
Yeah,so Fractal...you pasteurize at 338° F huh...I mean after all,you DID say to use 170° C water!
170° C converts to 338° F,only 88° F hotter than 250° F....so basically you say you can sterilize your horse poo and not get contaminants huh....man I bet a lot of plastics would melt with a temp of 338° F.
170° C to pasteurize 
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hamloaf
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: hamloaf]
#13025949 - 08/09/10 10:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Okay I had to come back and apologize for my douchbagness...
I understand you meant 170° F and not celsius (I at least hope so) and I only went off like that for the fear of some poor noob trying to pasteurize at a ridiculous temperature that would literally sterilize their bulk substrate.
But still,I wouldn't recommend someone try to sterilize their horse poo/coffee with the boiling water in a bucket method.For that I would recommend either big jars or PC'able bags with filter patches and bringing the bulk substrate/mix to field capacity before loading in jars or bags,then just place in an open PC and keep the water temp around 140° F to 160° F for 1-2 hours,don't let it get above 170° F the whole time.
^ That would be proper pasteurization.
For coir/vermiculite....boiling water in a bucket works just fine,as coir it self is very resistant to contamination.
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7 days without waves makes one weak!
Edited by Mad_Hatter2004 (08/09/10 10:39 AM)
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hamloaf
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Quote:
Mad_Hatter2004 said: Okay I had to come back and apologize for my douchbagness...
I understand you meant 170° F and not celsius (I at least hope so) and I only went off like that for the fear of some poor noob trying to pasteurize at a ridiculous temperature that would literally sterilize their bulk substrate.
But still,I wouldn't recommend someone try to sterilize their horse poo/coffee with the boiling water in a bucket method.For that I would recommend either big jars or PC'able bags with filter patches and bringing the bulk substrate/mix to field capacity before loading in jars or bags,then just place in an open PC and keep the water temp around 140° F to 160° F for 1-2 hours,don't let it get above 170° F the whole time.
^ That would be proper pasteurization.
For coir/vermiculite....boiling water in a bucket works just fine,as coir it self is very resistant to contamination.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13024733#13024733
HL
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: hamloaf]
#13025998 - 08/09/10 10:52 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
hamloaf said:
Quote:
Mad_Hatter2004 said: Okay I had to come back and apologize for my douchbagness...
I understand you meant 170° F and not celsius (I at least hope so) and I only went off like that for the fear of some poor noob trying to pasteurize at a ridiculous temperature that would literally sterilize their bulk substrate.
But still,I wouldn't recommend someone try to sterilize their horse poo/coffee with the boiling water in a bucket method.For that I would recommend either big jars or PC'able bags with filter patches and bringing the bulk substrate/mix to field capacity before loading in jars or bags,then just place in an open PC and keep the water temp around 140° F to 160° F for 1-2 hours,don't let it get above 170° F the whole time.
^ That would be proper pasteurization.
For coir/vermiculite....boiling water in a bucket works just fine,as coir it self is very resistant to contamination.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13024733#13024733
HL
I like I like,I'll be trying that weight deal you mentioned...
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FractalXplora
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Quote:
Okay I had to come back and apologize for my douchbagness...
LOL, i was just comin back at ya to read the whole thread.
Quote:
But still,I wouldn't recommend someone try to sterilize their horse poo/coffee with the boiling water in a bucket method.For that I would recommend either big jars or PC'able bags with filter patches and bringing the bulk substrate/mix to field capacity before loading in jars or bags,then just place in an open PC and keep the water temp around 140° F to 160° F for 1-2 hours,don't let it get above 170° F the whole time.
3 years worth of monotubs with mainly poo tell me this works man, believe it or not.
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hamloaf
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Gypsum can go in the bucket too with your coir/verm. Additives and manures must be properly pasteurized (I use water as a heat medium), then mixed together when cooled to room temps. HL
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Quote:
FractalXplora said:
Quote:
Okay I had to come back and apologize for my douchbagness...
LOL, i was just comin back at ya to read the whole thread.
Quote:
But still,I wouldn't recommend someone try to sterilize their horse poo/coffee with the boiling water in a bucket method.For that I would recommend either big jars or PC'able bags with filter patches and bringing the bulk substrate/mix to field capacity before loading in jars or bags,then just place in an open PC and keep the water temp around 140° F to 160° F for 1-2 hours,don't let it get above 170° F the whole time.
3 years worth of monotubs with mainly poo tell me this works man, believe it or not.
Again,I am not saying that the boiling water in a bucket method hasn't worked for you and your horse poo.BUT IW OULD NOT RECOMMEND IT TO ANYONE IF USING POO/COFFEE.
For that it is best to properly pasteurize as Hamloaf and I have said.RR and any TC will tell you the same thing.
Again,I am not saying it hasn't worked for you,but I would not recommend it to anyone unless using just coco coir/vermiculite,and neither will any TC.
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FractalXplora
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RR said;
Quote:
2. Don't use liquid coffee in anything that doesn't get sterilized. Liquid coffee will contaminate easily if it's not kept totally sterile until fully colonized. Spent coffee grounds are OK in a bulk substrate, but not liquid coffee. RR
mad hatter;
Quote:
For that it is best to properly pasteurize as Hamloaf and I have said.RR and any TC will tell you the same thing.
hamloaf said;
Quote:
I pasteurize my manure(s) and other additives using water as my heat transfer medium in 4 gallon spawn bags inside of my P23 pot on top of my stove. I slip the spawn bag through the hole of a 15 pound weight so that when the water boils, the substrate and the bag do no shift around during pasteurization and allowing extra moisture to get into my bag and ruin field capacity.
I then place a meat thermometer through the hole of the weight and into the core of the substrate in the bag.
I then turn the stove onto high and wait for my meat thermometer to read 170 degrees Fahrenheit, then I turn my stove off and put on the lid. When I come back 90 minutes later, my thermometer reads 150 degrees every time.
and mad hatter;
Quote:
But still,I wouldn't recommend someone try to sterilize their horse poo/coffee with the boiling water in a bucket method.For that I would recommend either big jars or PC'able bags with filter patches and bringing the bulk substrate/mix to field capacity before loading in jars or bags,then just place in an open PC and keep the water temp around 140° F to 160° F for 1-2 hours,don't let it get above 170° F the whole time.
I say, theres no difference, apart form the bag.
And yes I often use coffee to this way never had a problem.
Bag or no bag 140 - 160 oF tell me the difference?
Check with thermometer and your good to go.
I give up.
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Are you having that hard of a time understanding that I am not saying it hasn't worked for you?!
I am glad that it in fact has worked for you,but I would not recommend pasteurizing poo or coffee grounds that way to anyone.
Nice quote from RR,don't know what it has to do with this though.Yes SPENT coffee GROUNDS are ok in a bulk substrate,but not liquid coffee...but no where in that quote did RR mention that it's wise to pasteurize poo or coffee grounds using the boiling water in a bucket method...no,no he did not.In fact I bett RR would recommend using jars or filter patch bags in a large pot or PC and to set you stoves temperature so that you pasteurize between 140° F and 160° F for 1-2 hours,without going above 170° F for too long.
I am not going to argue with you any longer and all I am saying is that while it may have worked for you,you should not be spreading that advice around.
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FractalXplora
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rave420
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this all sounds way to complicated, i rather mix my sub / casing to field capacity, load it into oven bags, put a thermometer in there and heat it to 140 - 160 for an hour, that removes all doubt from my mind and seems SIMPLE ENOUGH!
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13026753 - 08/09/10 02:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jokefox said: if i was to seal the bags after pasteurization should i suck the air out or leave some in
should i seal it before or after it cools and then how should i store it after i seal it
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FractalXplora
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: rave420]
#13026764 - 08/09/10 02:02 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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thats my point rave420,
Im having trouble understanding what the difference is between keeping you sub at 140-160 F in a bag @ filed capacity on a pot for 1 half hours, compared to keeping it in a bucket of water at 140-160 F for 1 half hours, with a drain to get to right capacity?
If I am wrong, or missing the point can someone please correct me with an explanation.
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jokefox
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CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION ONE POST UP
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Numinosum
President of Turd Town



Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 1,175
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I have no problem with any method that keeps the substrate at the correct temperature, for the correct time.
My problem with the bucket, is that I have a hard time believing that the temp/time specs are achieved.
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13026822 - 08/09/10 02:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Numinosum
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13026823 - 08/09/10 02:13 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I would say leave the air, and seal hot. When it cools, a vacuum will be created.
Remember though, that it can not be stored this way indefinitely. Pasteurization increases shelf life, but it will ferment.
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13026829 - 08/09/10 02:14 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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ahhhh
put what if i put it in the freezer after it cools
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Numinosum
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13026830 - 08/09/10 02:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Very nice. Freezer should keep it.
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Mad_Hatter2004
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13026840 - 08/09/10 02:16 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sorry about that Jokefox...kinda threadjacked you there in a way..my bad bro.
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Edited by Mad_Hatter2004 (08/09/10 02:16 PM)
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jokefox
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13026857 - 08/09/10 02:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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so in theory
you can store a shittt load of ready to go sub in the freezer just let de-thaw for 24 hours then use?
all good about the thread jack this thread is a very useful information bank right now
theres alot to do about pasteurization and some people gave up there secrets if you read the whole thread, i learnt alot actually lol
and RR even made a cameo
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Numinosum
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13026871 - 08/09/10 02:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Sounds good to me.
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rave420
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if you dump hot water on there that is more than 160F you kill all beneficial organisms. If you only dumped 160F water on there it won't stay at 160F for long enough.
It's all about maintaining the control on the temperature.
You can take your time to neatly cut a hole into the wall, or you can just punch it as hard as you can to crack the wall open. The end result is going to be a hole either way. It's about what matters to you, your standard of doing things, and your need for accuracy and precision.
I feel if i just dumped boiling water on a coir block i'd be not maintaining temperature, and i would leave too much up to chance. Furthermore, i'd have to mess around with the pasteurized substrate to get to perfect field capacity.
If i mix it to field capacity, and THEN pasteurize it in an oven bag in hot water i feel like i am much more in control of things, giving me consistent results every time i repeat the procedure. Also, i don't have to handle the pasteurized substrate ever again after it's done, reducing the risk of introducing contaminants.
I would just feel like i did a sloppy job. If that's all i want then i dump some hot water into a bucket. But that's not the way i work. Period!
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prismism



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: rave420]
#13027351 - 08/09/10 03:34 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rave420 said: if you dump hot water on there that is more than 160F you kill all beneficial organisms. If you only dumped 160F water on there it won't stay at 160F for long enough.
It's all about maintaining the control on the temperature.
You can take your time to neatly cut a hole into the wall, or you can just punch it as hard as you can to crack the wall open. The end result is going to be a hole either way. It's about what matters to you, your standard of doing things, and your need for accuracy and precision.
I feel if i just dumped boiling water on a coir block i'd be not maintaining temperature, and i would leave too much up to chance. Furthermore, i'd have to mess around with the pasteurized substrate to get to perfect field capacity.
If i mix it to field capacity, and THEN pasteurize it in an oven bag in hot water i feel like i am much more in control of things, giving me consistent results every time i repeat the procedure. Also, i don't have to handle the pasteurized substrate ever again after it's done, reducing the risk of introducing contaminants.
I would just feel like i did a sloppy job. If that's all i want then i dump some hot water into a bucket. But that's not the way i work. Period!
I applaud this post. Well said, I completely agree one hundred percent.
-------------------- ephemeral anomalous
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Base Icks



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: rave420]
#13027419 - 08/09/10 03:42 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
rave420 said: if you dump hot water on there that is more than 160F you kill all beneficial organisms. If you only dumped 160F water on there it won't stay at 160F for long enough.
Well pasteurizing and sterilizing work on heat over time. Thats why you dont just pc for a second at 15 psi. You dont pasteurize at 160 for a minute.
Over 160 wont kill them all instantly. It takes time for heat to kill things. As long as it drops to 160 in a reasonable amount of time your fine. A minute or two is not the end of the world.
I agree that it is lazy, but it works. Cars are pretty lazy and are fucking up the world. When was the last time you were in something with and engine?
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rave420
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13027638 - 08/09/10 04:23 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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it might work and you might have results with it, but it is NOT THE PROPER WAY TO DO IT. Don't call it pasteurization then. When teaching other people, you want to make sure they understand this, because it leads to perpetuating misleading information.
Can you show me that if you dump hot water in a bucket that the temperature of the substrate will stay at 140 - 160F for 60 minutes? Will it? It depends on how big the bucket is, how much water you use, how much substrate, what material etc. by doing this you introduce A MYRIAD OF UNKNOWNS for the new and unexperienced grower that may or may not lead to failure.
By establishing a routine (thank you RR) that is precise you eliminate all of the unknown factors, and you have something that IS KNOWN TO WORK! No guessing, no estimating, no doubt. Just knowing what you're doing is the way it's done for more than a century now, and it worked every time unless YOU start changing the procedure.
If you can live with unknowns and like to take a shot at something without definite reassurance then be my guest. I know if i grow mold and other things I CAN'T BE MY PROCEDURE, or i must have made an error along the way somewhere. Either way, i can evaluate what i did and find the error, and improve from there. By mixing arbitrary amounts of water and substrate and then handling it after, i can't do that. I have to assume the error happened at any step.
There are people out there that bring you the true and tested, that teach methods known to work 99% of the time if followed step by step. Yet, there are people who think they can get the same results cutting corners, substituting etc. and then are surprised why it doesn't work out for them. I for one, am glad there are people who share their knowledge, for i am able to follow instructions. If i cut corners, and mess up, i know i have to start working on myself, not the procedure.
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Base Icks



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: rave420]
#13027700 - 08/09/10 04:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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rave420
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: rave420]
#13027720 - 08/09/10 04:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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good point, moving on. Everybody does what they think is right anyhow.
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Giallo
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13027800 - 08/09/10 04:51 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
jokefox said: CAN SOMEONE ANSWER MY QUESTION ONE POST UP
Yeah I can, but you just flipped me sh*t for no reason in the strain threadso why bother. Very flawed tech that needs to be completely reworked, time and ingredients need to be modified.
Edited by Giallo (08/09/10 06:59 PM)
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Base Icks



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: rave420]
#13027818 - 08/09/10 04:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I understand the whole "lets not confuse the noobs" thing. I was totally green 5 months ago.
Thing is though that the info is here there and everywhere, and they are probably going to get confused anyways. This site isn't the easiest thing to navigate, glossary are hard to find. Yadda Yadda Yadda.
Thank god were all here to help and answer questions.
Better that than
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Numinosum
President of Turd Town



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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Giallo]
#13027905 - 08/09/10 05:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Giallo said:
Quote:
Numinosum said: I have no problem with any method that keeps the substrate at the correct temperature, for the correct time.
My problem with the bucket, is that I have a hard time believing that the temp/time specs are achieved.
Yeah I can, but you just flipped me sh*t for no reason in the strain threadso why bother. Very flawed tech that needs to be completely reworked, time and ingredients need to be modified.
???? I never even posted in that thread. Think you've got me mixed up with someone else.
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Giallo
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13028379 - 08/09/10 06:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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That was at the TS, not you. hit the wrong quote button.
Edited by Giallo (08/09/10 06:58 PM)
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FractalXplora
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Giallo]
#13029934 - 08/10/10 12:32 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I hear what y'all saying, cant see sub temp being at 165F for like 5 /10 mins being a problem, as of course it isn't in all reality.
I got the original info from this great thread, tis a fitting read.
Large Dose COir tek
just to confuse this even more.
Many people do it the bucket way, with additives too........and poo......and a thermometer!!!!! Not that random or sloppy really.
Doing small amounts yes would be a problem keeping temps in the range but the size of a standard monotub it easy holds the temps as Large_dose explains in his thread
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