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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Quote:
Mad_Hatter2004 said:
Quote:
FractalXplora said: you simply cant go wrong with water at 170oC, pour onto sub, chuck it in a big bucket lid on 2 hours? will pasterize perfect every time and sit at 150 for ages!
forget the oven, too expensive and pointless:)
Sure you can.For coir/vermiculite the boiling water in a bucket method works great,but that's because coco coir is pretty dam resistant to contamination (unless your coir was treated with trich).
Try the boiling water bucket method on some horse poo...I will almost guarantee a fail.
Note that he said pour 170F water on the substrate. That's different from pouring boiling water on it.
The bottom line is that any method that gets the substrate to 140F to 160F and holds it there for an hour to 90 minutes is going to work. I prefer to get the substrate to the correct moisture content first, and then pasteurize in bags or jars. However, the bottom line is to maintain the correct temperature range for the correct time, regardless of how one goes about it. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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FractalXplora
Grainiack




Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 2,494
Loc: UK
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: RogerRabbit]
#13020973 - 08/08/10 09:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Note that he said pour 170F water on the substrate. That's different from pouring boiling water on it.
The bottom line is that any method that gets the substrate to 140F to 160F and holds it there for an hour to 90 minutes is going to work. I prefer to get the substrate to the correct moisture content first, and then pasteurize in bags or jars. However, the bottom line is to maintain the correct temperature range for the correct time, regardless of how one goes about it. RR
I rest my case.
I suppose the only disadvantage is with this method your leeching out some of the good nutes when you pour off the excess water, but that goes on my tomato plants, they love that sweet poo water .
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Numinosum
President of Turd Town



Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 1,175
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You are using C? like Celsius? Or do you mean Fahrenheit?
There is no case to rest. You said you used 170 deg C water. My question was:
How the hell are you able to obtain "170oC" water?
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
Edited by Numinosum (08/08/10 01:26 PM)
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Base Icks



Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 6,191
Loc: Shroomshire
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13021856 - 08/08/10 01:59 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Its obviously a typo. You would have to have the water under some pretty high pressure to get it that hot. Its not very feasible.
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FractalXplora
Grainiack




Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 2,494
Loc: UK
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13022198 - 08/08/10 03:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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sorry stoned typo, yes i mean Fahrenheit of course
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Numinosum
President of Turd Town



Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 1,175
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So you use that for just for straw? Or do you find it works for anything?
Also are you just using the correct amount of water for hydration, or do you need to remove excess?
It seems to me that a heavier substrate would require more energy to heat it up.
IE a 20deg drop in the water temp would in turn only raise the substrate temp about 20deg.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
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Base Icks



Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 6,191
Loc: Shroomshire
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13022361 - 08/08/10 03:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think its a mass thing.
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Numinosum
President of Turd Town



Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 1,175
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13022389 - 08/08/10 03:55 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well weight is relative to mass.
In this hobby I think it is ok to interchange mass with weight.
But either way, you know what I mean.
The energy required to heat the substrate comes from the water. I understand that the substrate requires less energy to heat than water, but if you include loss through air, I feel like it wouldn't be adequate.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
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Base Icks



Registered: 03/19/10
Posts: 6,191
Loc: Shroomshire
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13022473 - 08/08/10 04:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Well people do it here all the time. Take Damion's coir tek for example.
I tried it with horse manure. I did the manure weight to coir weight in the same recipe ratio. The boiling water was a bit to hot, temp went up to 180f. I poured it into a tub and spread it out for a few minutes and it dropped to 160 and I put it back in the bucket. Stayed at 160 for 2 hours. Next time I'll be using 180F water to start with.
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Numinosum
President of Turd Town



Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 1,175
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13022491 - 08/08/10 04:27 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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If it works it works. Just mathematically doesn't sound right.
I could do the math, except I don't know the specific heat capacity of the substrate.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
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Numinosum
President of Turd Town



Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 1,175
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Numinosum]
#13022670 - 08/08/10 05:17 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ok so if I were to guess that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is .5 (in calories) and in the coir tek the water content is about a 1:4 ratio of the substrate.
So scale it down to 1g of H2O to 4g of substrate. Each deg C of the water would heat each gram of the substrate 2 deg C(while the H2O loses 1 deg C). So each gram of water heats 4g of substrate .5 deg C (for each deg C). So lets say the substrate starts at 37 deg C, which is high, then it needs to be heated to at least 60deg C. that means that the H2O would need to be 106deg C in order to bring the 37deg C substrate to pasteurization temp.
Obviously we can't have 106 deg C water so in my mind, the pouring of hot water is not reliable.
Now my math may not be right considering the specific heat capacity I used is made up lol.
But consideration also needs to be made to the loss of heat in steam, and to the bucket itself.
IMO proper pasteurization needs a continuous heat source. Unless that is, that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is significantly lower.
-------------------- ...within my memory is the knowledge of hyper-light drive ships and how to build them.
Doc_T's Efficiency Challenge
Edited by Numinosum (08/08/10 05:19 PM)
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hamloaf
Q-dood ®©™√


Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 24,389
Loc: ation: Based.
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Base Icks]
#13023484 - 08/08/10 08:10 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I tried it with horse manure. I did the manure weight to coir weight in the same recipe ratio. The boiling water was a bit to hot, temp went up to 180f. I poured it into a tub and spread it out for a few minutes and it dropped to 160 and I put it back in the bucket. Stayed at 160 for 2 hours. Next time I'll be using 180F water to start with.
When adding manure (cow, horse, or chicken) and spent coffee grounds to my coir/verm(gypsum), I bring the manure and additives to field capacity and pasteurize them separately, using water as the heat medium. I do the coir/verm(gypsum) in the bucket via the tek, then mix them together once they have both cooled to room temperatures. HL
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FractalXplora
Grainiack




Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 2,494
Loc: UK
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: hamloaf]
#13024598 - 08/08/10 11:57 PM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
k so if I were to guess that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is .5 (in calories) and in the coir tek the water content is about a 1:4 ratio of the substrate.
So scale it down to 1g of H2O to 4g of substrate. Each deg C of the water would heat each gram of the substrate 2 deg C(while the H2O loses 1 deg C). So each gram of water heats 4g of substrate .5 deg C (for each deg C). So lets say the substrate starts at 37 deg C, which is high, then it needs to be heated to at least 60deg C. that means that the H2O would need to be 106deg C in order to bring the 37deg C substrate to pasteurization temp.
Obviously we can't have 106 deg C water so in my mind, the pouring of hot water is not reliable.
Now my math may not be right considering the specific heat capacity I used is made up lol.
But consideration also needs to be made to the loss of heat in steam, and to the bucket itself.
IMO proper pasteurization needs a continuous heat source. Unless that is, that the specific heat capacity of the substrate is significantly lower.
dude you've lost me, just chuck that 170 F water in a bucket and walk away.
works with straw, poo and anything else for that matter, your over complicating it. ya its basically damians5050''s coir tek!
--------------------

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jokefox
Top of the chain



Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 6,231
Loc: never where I should be
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hes talking about he transfer
whats not to get
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Javadog
Continuing along



Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 7,385
Loc: USA
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13024669 - 08/09/10 12:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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You know, what we need is a device that allows us to set the temp that it will heat water to.
Are there rice cookers or some such that will do this?
I still find pasteurizing to be the most attention intensive procedure thus far. (esp. since I built my flowhood)
-------------------- Boyd Rice told my brother that life is a corny pack of freesakes
Myco-tek.org
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jokefox
Top of the chain



Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 6,231
Loc: never where I should be
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Javadog]
#13024718 - 08/09/10 12:38 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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akira made something really smart i just dont got the $$ yet
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hamloaf
Q-dood ®©™√


Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 24,389
Loc: ation: Based.
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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Quote:
dude you've lost me, just chuck that 170 F water in a bucket and walk away.
works with straw, poo and anything else for that matter, your over complicating it. ya its basically damians5050''s coir tek!
I pasteurize my manure(s) and other additives using water as my heat transfer medium in 4 gallon spawn bags inside of my P23 pot on top of my stove. I slip the spawn bag through the hole of a 15 pound weight so that when the water boils, the substrate and the bag do no shift around during pasteurization and allowing extra moisture to get into my bag and ruin field capacity.

I then place a meat thermometer through the hole of the weight and into the core of the substrate in the bag.

I then turn the stove onto high and wait for my meat thermometer to read 170 degrees ferinheight, then I turn my stove off and put on the lid. When I come back 90 minutes later, my thermometer reads 150 degrees every time.
I pasteurize, separate, my manures and additive from my coir/verm/(gypsum) to be able to worry that much less about contaminates. Damion5050's coir tek is not a precisely tempered tek, meaning the hot water used in the tek is just boiled water. No measure to gauge the temperature precisely is used. No need to either because, as well all know, coir is much more contaminate resistant then manures and additives. Therefore I opt to properly and precisely pasteurize my manures and additives before I mix them into my coir/verm(gypsum). HL
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danstice
Information Sponge


Registered: 04/27/10
Posts: 383
Loc: Here
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: Javadog]
#13024846 - 08/09/10 01:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Javadog said: You know, what we need is a device that allows us to set the temp that it will heat water to.
Are there rice cookers or some such that will do this?
I still find pasteurizing to be the most attention intensive procedure thus far. (esp. since I built my flowhood)
How about an immersion water heater?
I thought about making a pasteurization tub out of a horse or cattle trough that was well insulated and had an adjustable heater installed. I planned on installing an immersion heater from an old electric water heater. Then install some sort of pump to slightly agitate the water for even heating of the entire trough. It depends on the size of the trough, but I'm sure you could pasteurize a lot of substrate quickly using something like this. 
or maybe something like this would be useful? :
http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=0304600
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jokefox
Top of the chain



Registered: 12/22/09
Posts: 6,231
Loc: never where I should be
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: danstice]
#13024915 - 08/09/10 01:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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if i was to seal the bags after pasteurization should i suck the air out or leave some in
should i seal it before or after it cools and then how should i store it after i seal it
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FractalXplora
Grainiack




Registered: 02/11/06
Posts: 2,494
Loc: UK
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Re: pasteurization problems [Re: jokefox]
#13024967 - 08/09/10 02:17 AM (14 years, 5 months ago) |
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Log in to view attachment
Quote:
How about an immersion water heater?
I thought about making a pasteurization tub out of a horse or cattle trough that was well insulated and had an adjustable heater installed. I planned on installing an immersion heater from an old electric water heater. Then install some sort of pump to slightly agitate the water for even heating of the entire trough. It depends on the size of the trough, but I'm sure you could pasteurize a lot of substrate quickly using something like this. 
or maybe something like this would be useful? :
heres great bulk pasterization tek. so simple! looks great! get the pdf top of this post.
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