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OfflineAn Errant Egret
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Use for contaminated cakes?
    #13005118 - 08/05/10 12:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Going to kick this off with a hypothetical situation for you to evaluate:

Quote:

Initial culture is generated according to MMGG tek with a spore syringe containing a standard commercial amount of spores. A small amount of mold contamination is introduced during inoculation.  At the time of the first usable mushroom (we'll say one month after inoculation) 25% of the cake is moldy. The mushroom cap is taken to generate a spore syringe.

Spore syringe is generated and contains a vast amount of spores, we'll say 100x more than the first (commercial) syringe. An amount of mold identical to the first inoculation is gathered along with the mushroom spores due to proximity to the fruit. Due to the higher number of starter spores the culturing process is vastly accelerated and the first usable mushroom is ready in two weeks. Only 18% of the cake is moldy this time.

Procedure is repeated and the same number of mushroom spores are in the following syringe, though with only 18% contamination of the cake as opposed to 25% the initial unintentionally "gathered/harvested" contamination in the syringe is greatly diminished. Percentage of mold on fruiting cake thereby drops (by a larger % each time) with each generation.





Rather than throw out contaminated cakes and substrates I thought that maybe they could still serve a purpose. Before trying this I thought I'd run it by you friendly folks to see if anyone has possibly done this before or if there's a specific reason why it couldn't work whatsoever. The numbers involved are fudged for demonstration purposes.

The basis of this theory is that while the fruit bodies of the mushrooms are inedible due to the possible accumulation of toxins, they will still grow and produce spores. If there are no contaminants actively growing on the mushrooms themselves, can these mushrooms be used as a basis for generating spore syringes?

I understand that this presents a high probability for a contaminated spore syringe but with enough spores is it possible that a fast-culturing strain like Treasure Coast could grow a lot faster than the potential contaminants? Not necessarily "choke out" any competing molds or bacteria, but populate the culture jar so fast that the % of contaminants (if any) in subsequent jars is far lower when it's ready to be birthed? Perhaps after doing this multiple times could someone even generate a "clean" culture?

Or is it a situation where the spores suffer some kind of genetic damage due to the shrooms growing on a moldy cake and are rendered infertile or otherwise unsafe?


--------------------
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So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13005145 - 08/05/10 01:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

It would be best to use the spores from said mushrooms on agar to make sure there are absolutely no contams.If there are then the beauty of agar work is that you can make transfers of live healthy non contaminated mushroom mycelium and transfer it to a new,clean,sterile agar dish.Make as many transfers as you have to  untill all you're left with is contaminat free mycelium.Then transfer a wedge f colonized agar to a grain jar(s) and allow to colonize then fruit it out and take prints from those mushrooms,assuming the spawn and substrate didn't get contaminated.


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Invisiblewygram
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13005155 - 08/05/10 01:03 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

An Errant Egret said:
Rather than throw out contaminated cakes and substrates I thought that maybe they could still serve a purpose.



Substrates contaminated before the first flush should be thrown out or at least placed outdoors where they won't ruin the indoor growing environment.

Quote:

An Errant Egret said:
The basis of this theory is that while the fruit bodies of the mushrooms are inedible due to the possible accumulation of toxins, they will still grow and produce spores.




Fruits from contaminated substrates are just fine. There is no transfer for toxins or anything like that.

Quote:

An Errant Egret said:
is it possible that a fast-culturing strain like Treasure Coast could grow a lot faster than the potential contaminants?



No. Molds are simpler than proper fungi like mushrooms, so they grow and reproduce much faster than any mushroom could. In a sterile environment there is no competition, molds win every time. If you are worried about a contaminated print simply clean it up on agar.


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OfflineAn Errant Egret
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: wygram]
    #13005244 - 08/05/10 01:30 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wygram said:
Substrates contaminated before the first flush should be thrown out or at least placed outdoors where they won't ruin the indoor growing environment.




This I know, not really the issue here but thanks.

Quote:


Fruits from contaminated substrates are just fine. There is no transfer for toxins or anything like that.




Then why are you supposed to throw them out? Simply because it's easy for the fruits themselves to become contaminated? I could have sworn that I read on one of the grow guides that mushrooms can collect the toxic byproducts of mold and bacteria via the mycellium network.

FAKE EDIT: I can't find a definitive answer to this after reading a dozen or so threads here. I have a mycologist friend who works in a lab and I will see what her insights are.

Quote:


No. Molds are simpler than proper fungi like mushrooms, so they grow and reproduce much faster than any mushroom could. In a sterile environment there is no competition, molds win every time. If you are worried about a contaminated print simply clean it up on agar.




This I knew, but they key consideration is the initial amount of fungal spores outnumbering the mold by huge amounts. Also, I'm trying to avoid agar in this hypothetical situation as it's not a "common household item." Personally I'm done with growing for a while, this whole thing is more or less a thought exercise.


--------------------
Ph. D. in particle physics, organic chemistry, molecular biology. Interdisciplinary minors in economics, psychology, infrastructure logistics. Over a dozen published works, two Nobel nominations, and accolades from twenty-seven world leaders.

So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13005284 - 08/05/10 01:43 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wygram said:
Fruits from contaminated substrates are just fine. There is no transfer for toxins or anything like that.




Quote:

An Errant Egret said:
Then why are you supposed to throw them out?




So you don't spread the contaminant spores all throughout your house,possibly giving chance to each and every grow afterwards to succumb to contamination.

Edited by Mad_Hatter2004 (08/05/10 01:45 AM)

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OfflineAn Errant Egret
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: Mad_Hatter2004]
    #13010495 - 08/06/10 01:25 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

So you don't spread the contaminant spores all throughout your house,possibly giving chance to each and every grow afterwards to succumb to contamination.




Assuming that you made your cultures in your house in the first place the contaminants are already there. This doesn't seem like a very good reason. A smaller amount of contaminants would be present in your house without having them actively growing on an exposed cake obviously, but I fail to see how keeping a contaminated cake in a sealed terrarium on an entirely different floor of the house is going to drastically increase the risk of future contamination of new cakes.

It's like saying that since 60% of all household accidents happen in the bathroom you're less likely to die by avoiding the bathroom.


--------------------
Ph. D. in particle physics, organic chemistry, molecular biology. Interdisciplinary minors in economics, psychology, infrastructure logistics. Over a dozen published works, two Nobel nominations, and accolades from twenty-seven world leaders.

So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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OfflineSynocybin
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13010527 - 08/06/10 01:37 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

My friend got trich on his first monotub after years of successfully cultivating in the same house... he was on his second flush when he decided he would keep it until it finished fruiting... after said monotub incident he has never been able to successfully grow again even after cleaning the whole place with chlorox and lysol... some things are better left to the trash can tek...


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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13010645 - 08/06/10 02:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

An Errant Egret said:
So you don't spread the contaminant spores all throughout your house,possibly giving chance to each and every grow afterwards to succumb to contamination.




Assuming that you made your cultures in your house in the first place the contaminants are already there. This doesn't seem like a very good reason. A smaller amount of contaminants would be present in your house without having them actively growing on an exposed cake obviously, but I fail to see how keeping a contaminated cake in a sealed terrarium on an entirely different floor of the house is going to drastically increase the risk of future contamination of new cakes.

It's like saying that since 60% of all household accidents happen in the bathroom you're less likely to die by avoiding the bathroom.




The spores will get all over your house because they are microscopic and each and every little spore will be picked up by the slightest draft of air.It will stick to your clothes,and has the possibility of fallin off your clothes and getting spread around the rest of the house,no matter if the infected grow was in a completely different area/level of the house.

It's not rocket science dude,and I am willing to bet that any TC here at the shroomery along with any competent growers would agree with me.If it is contaminated get it out of the house.

Either

A) Dump it outside and cover with leaves and grass clippings and be sure to water every day to every other day and you may get some fruits.

or

B) Pressure cook the contaminated jar and then toss it.


Either way,to be safe...get a pair of board shots/swim trunks when you take it outside.After dumping the contaminated substrate turn on the hose and take an outside shower,then change into fresh clothes beofre you go back in the house.


--------------------
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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13011000 - 08/06/10 06:52 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

An Errant Egret said:

Assuming that you made your cultures in your house in the first place the contaminants are already there. This doesn't seem like a very good reason.




You're not thinking it all the way through.  There's mold spores in the air everywhere, including your house.  However, they're in small enough numbers to manage.  If you have a moldy substrate, those numbers of contaminant spores go up exponentially.  This is the reason to remove contaminated substrates immediately on sight.  Bury them in a shady spot and they'll often recover and fruit.  Those fruits will be fine to eat.

Molds and bacteria are not conducted from the substrate to the fruit body.  Cubes grow on cow manure in the wild, and they're safe to eat.  How many sterile cow pies do you think are in a field?
RR


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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13011045 - 08/06/10 07:15 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
How many sterile cow pies do you think are in a field?




20, dependent on the size of the field.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Bury them in a shady spot and they'll often recover and fruit.  Those fruits will be fine to eat.




He's riiiight!

Spent and Contaminated Substrates. Here's a Solution!







:robblerobble:

HL


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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: hamloaf]
    #13011066 - 08/06/10 07:27 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Spent cakes make excellent ammunition for foxes, just distract them first with a bit of food then BOOM, they wont know whats hit them.

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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: badman]
    #13011119 - 08/06/10 07:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

:facepalm:

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Invisiblebadman
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: hamloaf]
    #13011136 - 08/06/10 07:59 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hey its not like I'm pretending to play golf with a shovel as my 9 iron and the fox as my ball, that would just be messy.

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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: badman]
    #13011150 - 08/06/10 08:02 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

You shouldn't kill an animal unless

1) You plan on eating it's meat and using every last available part...want not waste not.

2) It has become a major nuisance or has attacked you.


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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: Mad_Hatter2004]
    #13011163 - 08/06/10 08:06 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Mad_Hatter2004 said:
You shouldn't kill an animal unless

1) You plan on eating it's meat and using every last available part...want not waste not.

2) It has become a major nuisance or has attacked you.



:hammertime:


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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: hamloaf]
    #13011189 - 08/06/10 08:15 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

duh nuh nuh nuh,nuh nuh,nuh nuh,can't touch this :awedance:


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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: hamloaf]
    #13011192 - 08/06/10 08:16 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Stay on topic please.
RR


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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13011216 - 08/06/10 08:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

:super:


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OfflineAn Errant Egret
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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: hamloaf]
    #13017575 - 08/07/10 03:00 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Wow, I didn't know that it was such a big deal to have a bit of extra contamination in the house. I figured that since everything gets sterilized with very minimal exposure to the unsterilized environment that (if done properly) the odds of contamination are pretty low.

I live in a house built in the 1800's. I've routinely had to throw out moldy/rotten food over the years after returning from vacation - for some reason I can never remember to put those goddamn apples into the fridge before I leave - so it's probably safe to say that I have a lot of contaminants in my house. Even while I was growing intentionally contaminated cultures of Azurescens in ventilated terrariums in an attempt to create a contaminant-resistant strain I never had problems with any other cultures becoming contaminated. While I'm not currently growing, I've never had a problem in the past with accidental contamination in over 150 jars; am I just lucky? Particularly skilled at maintaining sterilization? I always sterilized in the oven (and caught hell for it here) at 350 degrees for multiple hours but obviously this was likely overkill as an environment can only get so clean.

That said I don't want to derail this with past accounts, I'd rather just get feedback on if multiple genning with HUGE spore inoculations can outpace comparatively small amounts of contamination. I'd assume so, as in nature the environment isn't sterile and the vast amount of spores dropped seems to be the mechanism by which fungi can actually survive.


--------------------
Ph. D. in particle physics, organic chemistry, molecular biology. Interdisciplinary minors in economics, psychology, infrastructure logistics. Over a dozen published works, two Nobel nominations, and accolades from twenty-seven world leaders.

So please, tell me in detail about the jack I don't know about shit that I might be privileged enough to glean a morsel of knowledge from your immense experience.

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Re: Use for contaminated cakes? [Re: An Errant Egret]
    #13017626 - 08/07/10 03:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Contaminated cakes make excellent party favors to use in grab bags.


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