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InvisiblePoid
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I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government...
    #12989750 - 08/02/10 09:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

http://www.faluninfo.net/article/647/?cid=61
Quote:

The last time Xiaodan Wang saw her favorite red sweater, she was watching CNN as her father was sentenced to 16 years in prison. It was Xiaodan’s first glimpse of her father, Zhiwen Wang, in over six months, but there was no mistaking her sweater even for a moment. The bright color, a piece of clothing taken from his home hurriedly by family members after police took him from his bed on July 20, 1999, was peeking out from underneath a borrowed jacket.

Her father in CNN’s international broadcast of his trial was a man tattered by months of surviving life in police custody. His once-black hair was gray and matted, and his face looked tired and bruised. The thin summer pants he wore were barely enough protection against the cold December weather—but his spirit was clearly intact. Xiaodan could see it. The red sweater stood out like a secret message between parent and child saying to her, "Don’t worry, daughter. They haven’t broken me.”

When you meet Xiaodan, her quiet, gentle demeanor and soft-spoken tone of voice belies the tragedy she has experienced. A civil engineer in Texas, Xiaodan could easily be missed among the many faces of foreign immigrants in the United States. "Eight years,” she answers quickly when asked how long she’s been living in the United States. "And you can just call me Danielle.”

There is a lot of history in Danielle’s eyes, far too much for someone so young. At age 28, eight years after her father’s illegal arrest and initial detention, she is solid and focused as she tells the story they share.

Their remarkable journey began during her childhood in Beijing, China. It was there that her father raised her, and was also where she first learned of the meditation practice called Falun Gong (also known as Falun Dafa).

Zhiwen, a rural engineer, lived a quiet life, and raised his young daughter with the help of relatives. After he and Danielle began to practice Falun Gong in May, 1992, their entire family’s life took a turn for the better. Soon, even Zhiwen’s father saw the positive changes in the lives of his family members and took up the practice. Miraculously, the elder man’s gray hair turned black again, and his chronic health problems cleared up as he practiced the five gentle exercises of Falun Gong with his only son and young granddaughter every morning in a Beijing park.

The Wang family was not alone in their discovery of the extraordinary practice. So many people were learning Falun Gong by 1995 that the environment in China was noticeably more harmonious. Practitioners of Falun Gong’s principles of truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance were everywhere helping others and spreading compassion. By 1998, a government survey found that there were 70-100 million people practicing in China.

During these first five years, Zhiwen became a volunteer Falun Gong contact person in Beijing.

According to Danielle’s stories, Zhiwen dedicated his life to helping others. Whenever someone was having difficulty and needed a helping hand, Zhiwen was there. He lived to help others, and young Danielle grew up seeing her father’s selflessness.

Danielle left Beijing in 1998 to live in America with her mother, where she finished high school and then earned her bachelor’s degree in civil engineering—a family tradition passed down from grandfather and father. She has not seen her father since, except on CNN.

In the dawn hours of July 20, 1999, according to eyewitness accounts from neighbors, Zhiwen was kidnapped from his bed by police and taken away in waiting police vans. Practicing Falun Gong in China had literally become a crime overnight, and he was one of the thousands of practitioners throughout the country targeted for immediate arrest.

Watching from afar in America, Danielle says she found it impossible to imagine why her government would strike out at kind-hearted people. Remembering that time, she looks sad and thoughtful. "The country I grew up in was so bright, but Jiang Zemin [then leader of the Chinese Communist Party] showed its dark side," says Danielle. She still struggles to understand why her gentle and selfless father was taken away and has been held for so long, like a common criminal.

After Zhiwen’s disappearance, day after day the entire family tried everything they could think of to find out where he was being held, but to no avail. There was no word on his location or condition, and across the country Falun Gong practitioners were being crowded into jails and prisons, detention and brainwashing centers, and mental hospitals.

One day about three months after his disappearance, Danielle and her mother received a certificate of arrest from the Chinese police. They knew he was alive, but nothing else. They continued to wait and wonder for three more months. The only comfort to Danielle during this time was the knowledge that her father was strong enough mentally and physically to endure the situation. More than that, she knew that he would never renounce his beliefs, nor retaliate against any police brutality.

Finally, on December 27, 1999, an international CNN newscast aired the show trial of four Beijing Falun Dafa Association volunteers, and Zhiwen was among them. The men were obviously bruised from being beaten they stood in judgment for practicing Falun Gong and following truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.

An aunt of Danielle’s who was at the trial tried to approach Zhiwen to comb his matted hair, but was pushed away by the police. Zhiwen was given a sentence of 16 years in prison, and sent to Tianjin, and was later he was moved to Tianhe, a notorious labor camp in the northeast of China where he remains today.

The little news that filters out of China to Danielle and her family has been vague and disconnected. Rare letters are allowed through from either side—she has received two from him in the last 8 years. Sometimes news comes through that he was forced to sit on a small bench for seven days straight without food, water, or sleep. They hear that he has been continually tortured to renounce his belief in Falun Gong, but steadfastly refuses to succumb. One day Danielle’s mother got a phone call from China—it was Zhiwen. The entire conversation was about their daughter.

Since her father’s sentencing in 1999, Danielle has worked to appeal for help from the U.S. government and sympathetic supporters. She has written letter after letter to the president and met with her congressional representatives, organized a human rights walk from Houston to Washington D.C., and held press conferences and two hunger strikes to bring attention to the persecution of her father and countless other Falun Gong practitioners like him.

Perhaps most significantly, Danielle continues to practice Falun Gong. The tragedies of the past never stop her from being the positive, selfless person her father raised. She cannot return to China yet, but continues to fight for those who have no voice there. And she lives in hope that the next news of her father will be of his release.




How can China have the nerve to persecute the peaceful practitioners of Falun Gong, and think that the international community is not going to give a shit? I foresee China becoming a dangerous world power if nobody puts a stop to their bullshit...:japsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990048 - 08/02/10 11:05 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
How can China have the nerve to persecute the peaceful practitioners of Falun Gong, and think that the international community is not going to give a shit?





it's really simple poid, the chinese communist party outlawed the practice,
they break the law and they get prosecuted. seems that the international
community could give two shits about the 70 million falun gong
practitioner. I'm not seeing any headlines on CNN, the BBC, the NY Times or
anywhere really about their outrage

we dont hear about the trials or charges, we hear a few sympathetic
human rights sources telling us what they want so how do we know it's
accurate, it's not as if Amnesty International has never tried to
mislead us before

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12990074 - 08/02/10 11:13 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
How can China have the nerve to persecute the peaceful practitioners of Falun Gong, and think that the international community is not going to give a shit?





it's really simple poid, the chinese communist party outlawed the practice...


That in itself is fucking bullshit, it is a peacful practice centered around living in harmony with others and avoiding negative emotions. This kind of shit (persecuting people for engaging in peaceful religious practices) is unacceptable in the modern world IMO.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
they break the law and they get prosecuted. seems that the international
community could give two shits about the 70 million falun gong
practitioner.


It's persecution that's going on, no different than how Jews were persecuted in Nazi Germany.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not seeing any headlines on CNN, the BBC, the NY Times or
anywhere really about their outrage


What's your point, this only means that those news outlets don't give a shit, it says nothing about how serious of an issue this is.

Is the Epoch Times a reputable enough news source for you?
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/39752/
Quote:

WASHINGTON—Passersby were mesmerized by the glowing lights on Thursday night, as hundreds of people gathered at the base of the Washington Monument in the nation's capital for a candlelight vigil to commemorate 11 years since the beginning of the persecution of the Falun Gong spiritual practice in China.

Falun Gong (also known as Falun Dafa) practitioners silently held glowing candles in small cups, which created a lantern-like effect. The event attracted many passersby, who stopped to learn about the persecution.

In contrast to the harsh treatment of their brethren in China, practitioners in Washington meditated in peace, while vocal, instrumental, and choral music played in the background.

“This full-scale war rushed into our lives, [but] the only weapons we’ve wielded have been truth and beauty. And after 11 years, it is clear that our hearts can overcome any device of men, because the weapons of the Chinese Communist Party can only kill people, but our weapons, our hearts can save people,” said Jared Pearman, one of the MCs of the event.

According to the Falun Dafa Information Center (FDIC), the persecution of Falun Gong began on July 20, 1999, at the orders of Jiang Zemin, the former head of the Chinese Communist Party, commencing with a propaganda campaign to vilify the practice. Falun Gong adherents were illegally detained and placed into forced labor camps, where they suffered inhumane forms of torture, including being shocked with electric batons, burned with scalding irons, and force-fed.

Falun Gong practitioners in China continue to suffer intimidation, imprisonment, torture, and death. The 2010 FDIC annual report documented that 109 adherents of the practice died as a result of torture and abuse in 2009, and over 2,000 more were arbitrarily sentenced to forced labor or prison. Over half of the detainees in the Chinese forced labor camps are Falun Gong practitioners.

According to Clearwisdom.net, a website that documents the persecution with firsthand accounts from China, more than 3,000 deaths of Falun Gong practitioners have been confirmed. The actual number is believed to be much higher.

“The courage of the Chinese people grows with each day, and tens of millions of people have now spoken out with calls for freedom and justice, as they renounce their affiliations with the Chinese Communist Party and come to support human rights,” Pearman said.






Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
we dont hear about the trials or charges, we hear a few sympathetic
human rights sources telling us what they want so how do we know it's
accurate, it's not as if Amnesty International has never tried to
mislead us before


Read the article--why would you expect these people to lie? Just like Tibetans, they want to be free to practice a peaceful religion, it's not like they're asking for money or anything.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineModusPwnd
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990095 - 08/02/10 11:18 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

China is a totalitarian dictatorship and has been for generations.  Whats new?

We can either act and invade them with the intent of converting them to our way of life or we can respect that their way of life is different.  I admit neither of those is perfect, but we really only have the capability of doing the latter.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: ModusPwnd]
    #12990100 - 08/02/10 11:20 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ModusPwnd said:
We can either act and invade them with the intent of converting them to our way of life or we can respect that their way of life is different.


Would you have said this about Nazi Germany back in the 40's?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990119 - 08/02/10 11:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yes the way the Chinese government has acted in this case seems overly harsh and brutal. Do you think the the UK and and US have acted in any less harsh and brutal a fashion in Iraq, or perhaps far more brutal and harsh?

I think we should get our own houses in order before we worry too much about the wrongs others commit.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #12990138 - 08/02/10 11:27 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Yes the way the Chinese government has acted in this case seems overly harsh and brutal. Do you think the the UK and and US have acted in any less harsh and brutal a fashion in Iraq, or perhaps far more brutal and harsh?


People all over the middle-east are killing their own, at least part of the reason we're there is to defend innocent civilians from these retarded assholes. :arabs:



Quote:

GazzBut said:
I think we should get our own houses in order before we worry too much about the wrongs others commit.


Do you not at all worry about the direction China is heading? They are on the verge of becoming the next superpower of the world, if someone doesn't put an end to their nonsense before this happens then every other country will be at risk.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990149 - 08/02/10 11:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
How can China have the nerve to persecute the peaceful practitioners of Falun Gong, and think that the international community is not going to give a shit?





it's really simple poid, the chinese communist party outlawed the practice...


That in itself is fucking bullshit, it is a peacful practice centered around living in harmony with others and avoiding negative emotions. This kind of shit (persecuting people for engaging in peaceful religious practices) is unacceptable in the modern world IMO.




the law is the law, whether it's just or not, because someone disagrees
with it doesnt change the fact, if the people of china wanted change
they could make change.



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
they break the law and they get prosecuted. seems that the international
community could give two shits about the 70 million falun gong
practitioner.


It's persecution that's going on, no different than how Jews were persecuted in Nazi Germany.




persecution that obviously has trials because there's a law against
practicing this spiritual belief and since you compare this to Nazi
Germany, please feel free to provide the statistics for Falun Gong
practitioners that have been rounded up and executed, had their organs
harvested, sent to forced labor camps, etc...



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not seeing any headlines on CNN, the BBC, the NY Times or
anywhere really about their outrage


What's your point, this only means that those news outlets don't give a shit, it says nothing about how serious of an issue this is.

Is the Epoch Times a reputable enough news source for you?





is a Falun Gong founded mews paper reputable? well lets go with their other outlet as well, the New Tang Dynasty Television
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_Times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tang_Dynasty_Television

should we talk now about how there's no bias in fox or msnbc



Quote:

Read the article--why would you expect these people to lie? Just like Tibetans, they want to be free to practice a peaceful religion, it's not like they're asking for money or anything.





I'm curious about the international outrage, I want the NY Times piece,
I want to see CNNs take on this

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OfflineModusPwnd
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Registered: 07/08/10
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990191 - 08/02/10 11:42 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

ModusPwnd said:
We can either act and invade them with the intent of converting them to our way of life or we can respect that their way of life is different.


Would you have said this about Nazi Germany back in the 40's?




You mean just before we successfully invaded them with the intent of converting them to our way of life?  I dont know what I would have said, but we had the same options then that we do now.  For some reason defeating, occupying and rebuilding 1940s Germany seems like an easier job than doing that to 2010's China.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12990200 - 08/02/10 11:45 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the law is the law, whether it's just or not, because someone disagrees
with it doesnt change the fact, if the people of china wanted change
they could make change.


They're afraid of speaking up, don't you understand?



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
persecution that obviously has trials because there's a law against
practicing this spiritual belief and since you compare this to Nazi
Germany, please feel free to provide the statistics for Falun Gong
practitioners that have been rounded up and executed, had their organs
harvested, sent to forced labor camps, etc...


That article I posted should suffice.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
is a Falun Gong founded mews paper reputable? well lets go with their other outlet as well, the New Tang Dynasty Television
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_Times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Tang_Dynasty_Television

should we talk now about how there's no bias in fox or msnbc


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Epoch_Times#Opinions_.26_Criticisms
Quote:

In turn, The Epoch Times apologized to the U.S. President, whilst denying any direct ties to, or funding from, Falun Gong.



Quote:

According to Maria H. Chang of the University of Nevada, the paper was founded based on the socio-political environment in China. She argues that for the organization to survive, Falun Gong has to create organisations that are publicly unaffiliated with it, such as the Epoch Times. Chang states that such strategies are counterproductive in democratic societies, and that "being secretive and deceptive will just play into the image they're a kooky group with something to hide."




Even if they are a bit biased, this doesn't mean that they're liars.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm curious about the international outrage, I want the NY Times piece,
I want to see CNNs take on this



http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/23/china.falungong/index.html
Quote:

HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- Beijing has taken its nationwide campaign to discredit the Falun Gong movement to an international stage, calling the spiritual group a threat to civilized society all over the world.

Speaking to reporters in his first news conference as spokesman of China's embassy in Washington, Xie Feng said the Falun Gong "cult has never stopped breaking [the] law and committing crimes."

The latest step in China's battle against the Falun Gong, which Beijing now brands as a quasi-terrorist sect, follows the alleged hijacking of state-run satellites to broadcast pro-Falun Gong propaganda last month by group members based outside the country.

"By openly and deliberately attacking the Sinosat in contempt of international laws and the regulations, the Falun Gong cult was unscrupulously breaking the order of wireless communications and launching a challenge against civilization," Xie said in Washington on Monday.

"The international community should unite in condemning and punishing this cult," Xie said.
Claims rejected

A Falun Gong spokesperson rejected Xie's claims as another unsubstantiated slanderous attack made by Beijing in an attempt to legitimize its crackdown on the group.

"All these accusations are groundless. Where is the proof?" Sophie Xiao, spokeswoman for Falun Gong in Hong Kong told CNN.

"What you have seen in the past three years is the most peaceful, non-violent demonstrations [by Falun Gong followers] in the world. Truthfulness, compassion and tolerance -- that's the essence and universal characteristics of Falun Gong."

Xiao also said there was no evidence that the satellite broadcast hijacking in June had been perpetrated by Falun Gong members, arguing that the level of sophistication to tap into the signal was too complex.

"Nobody could rightly think it was us," Xiao said. "They are looking for international sympathy for their three years of brutal persecutions against millions of people."
Shift in attack

Xie's comments mark a noticeable shift in the focus of Beijing's campaign against the Falun Gong, analysts say.

In past anti-Falun Gong propaganda salvoes, the emphasis had been on the damage the group had allegedly done to the health of gullible worshippers and their relatives.

But now Beijing is moving the battleground to an international level, looking to put pressure on Western governments, like the United States, which had allowed Falun Gong cells to recruit new members in their countries of exile, analysts say. (Full story)

Falun Gong, based on traditional Chinese religions and meditation exercises, acquired millions of followers in the mid-1990s before it was banned by Beijing in July 1999 and denounced as an "evil cult."

Since it was outlawed, thousands of members have been detained and activists based outside China claim hundreds have died and been tortured while in custody.



http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/falun_gong/index.html
Quote:

Falun Gong is a Chinese spiritual movement, founded in 1992. An amalgamation of Buddhism, mysticism and traditional exercise regimes, it was outlawed by the Chinese government in 1999, and the country's authorities have continued to crack down on its adherents.

Falun Gong's founder, Li Hongzhi, was one of many professed masters of traditional Chinese breathing exercises, known as qigong, to emerge during a resurgence of the discipline in the late 1980's and early 1990's. The exercises are meant to focus the body's vital energy, which traditional Chinese medicine calls qi. Mr. Li differentiated himself from other qigong masters by wrapping his regimen in a cosmology that promises salvation through the refinement of one's character until the body literally evolves into another form of matter. At that point, the saved person is capable of flying to paradise, which may exist out in the cosmos, or in another dimension.

Mr. Li also included many of China's folk superstitions, making references to fox and weasel spirits, which made Falun Gong attractive to the masses. It offered a homegrown religion, not the staid, state-sanctioned Buddhism and Taoism, or the foreign feel of Christianity. And it did so at a time when religious interest was on the rise, as disillusioned Chinese sought spiritual solace in the aftermath of the massacre of pro-democracy demonstrators in 1989.

From the outset Falun Gong, which at its peak claimed to have millions of followers around China, insisted that it wanted only legal recognition, not political power. But the country's top leaders were alarmed by the group's ability to attract a devoted following -- from retired functionaries to pimple-faced college students.

The decision to ban Falun Gong entirely was made after 10,000 adherents staged a silent protest outside the gates of Zhongnanhai, the Communist Party's leadership compound in Beijing, to complain about reports in the state-run media that the group said were defamatory. Security forces apparently had no advance knowledge of the demonstration, which took place on April 25, 1999. The Chinese government began treating the group as a threat to national security.

In the past year, as many as 8,000 Falun Gong practitioners have been detained, according to experts on human rights, and at least 100 have died in custody. Among them were Yu Zhou, 42, a popular Beijing musician, and Cao Changling, the 77-year-old vice director of a paper plant in Wuhan, whose bruised body was returned to his family by the police in 2008 just as China was reveling in the glory of the Olympic Games.

Among experts based outside the country, there is broad consensus that the government's efforts have not done much to advance its own interests, at least internationally, where it has been dogged by allegations that it uses torture to crush believers into submission.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: ModusPwnd]
    #12990215 - 08/02/10 11:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ModusPwnd said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

ModusPwnd said:
We can either act and invade them with the intent of converting them to our way of life or we can respect that their way of life is different.


Would you have said this about Nazi Germany back in the 40's?




You mean just before we successfully invaded them with the intent of converting them to our way of life?  I dont know what I would have said, but we had the same options then that we do now.  For some reason defeating, occupying and rebuilding 1940s Germany seems like an easier job than doing that to 2010's China.


It's not simply "converting them to our way of life", nobody wants to force them to eat cheeseburgers and drive gas-guzzling SUVs, people just want them to honor human rights is all. Just because it would be hard, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990235 - 08/02/10 11:53 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

People all over the middle-east are killing their own, at least part of the reason we're there is to defend innocent civilians from these retarded assholes.




Well I have serious doubts about that point of view. However, that would not change the fact that thousands have died because of a) massive intelligence failure or b) our insatiable need for oil.

Quote:


Do you not at all worry about the direction China is heading? They are on the verge of becoming the next superpower of the world, if someone doesn't put an end to their nonsense before this happens then every other country will be at risk.




I dont really see any point in worrying about the chinese. My own governments activities do however worry me. I believe some of the common agendas in western politics put the rest of the world at considerable risk.

How much do the Chinese worry you? Do you think we should invade them to protect the world?


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #12990244 - 08/02/10 11:57 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

People all over the middle-east are killing their own, at least part of the reason we're there is to defend innocent civilians from these retarded assholes.




Well I have serious doubts about that point of view.


Are we not battling insurgents there that have been killing innocent civilians since way before 9/11?



Quote:

GazzBut said:
However, that would not change the fact that thousands have died because of a) massive intelligence failure or b) our insatiable need for oil.


Don't just blame the US.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
How much do the Chinese worry you? Do you think we should invade them to protect the world?


I think all the world powers should come together and have a serious talk with them about their policies regarding human rights, and see where things go from there.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990247 - 08/02/10 11:58 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
the law is the law, whether it's just or not, because someone disagrees
with it doesnt change the fact, if the people of china wanted change
they could make change.


They're afraid of speaking up, don't you understand?





1.3bn people and they have no voice, it's such a shame that the families
and friends of 70 million falun gong practitioners wont protect their
friends and families...



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
persecution that obviously has trials because there's a law against
practicing this spiritual belief and since you compare this to Nazi
Germany, please feel free to provide the statistics for Falun Gong
practitioners that have been rounded up and executed, had their organs
harvested, sent to forced labor camps, etc...


That article I posted should suffice.




it doesnt, it's like expecting the police to police the police, what
results are you gong to expect when your best friend is investigating
your misdeeds



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
is a Falun Gong founded mews paper reputable?



Even if they are a bit biased, this doesn't mean that they're liars.




it doesnt mean they arent either, it certainly suggests a very serious
bias since both were founded specifically to report news about Falun
Gong after the chinese outlawed it

how many people have been arrested for practicing falun gong?



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm curious about the international outrage, I want the NY Times piece,
I want to see CNNs take on this



http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/23/china.falungong/index.html
HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- Beijing has taken its nationwide campaign to discredit the Falun Gong movement to an international stage, calling the spiritual group a threat to civilized society all over the world.





wow... 2002, yep, international outrage

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12990275 - 08/02/10 12:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
1.3bn people and they have no voice, it's such a shame that the families
and friends of 70 million falun gong practitioners wont protect their
friends and families...


It doesn't matter how many people there are, anybody who speaks out puts their lives at risk; I'm not really sure what you're getting at when you say "it's such a shame that the families
and friends of 70 million falun gong practitioners wont protect their friends and families". :justdontknow:



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
how many people have been arrested for practicing falun gong?



http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/falun_gong/index.html
Quote:

In the past year, as many as 8,000 Falun Gong practitioners have been detained, according to experts on human rights, and at least 100 have died in custody.






Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm curious about the international outrage, I want the NY Times piece,
I want to see CNNs take on this



http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/07/23/china.falungong/index.html
HONG KONG, China (CNN) -- Beijing has taken its nationwide campaign to discredit the Falun Gong movement to an international stage, calling the spiritual group a threat to civilized society all over the world.




wow... 2002, yep, international outrage


People aren't outraged either because they don't care, or because the Chinese government isn't coming completely clean with what they're doing--tons of people have told stories of their loved ones being tortured and shit, I accept the possibility that they could be lying but I think it's doubtful.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990283 - 08/02/10 12:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Are we not battling insurgents there that have been killing innocent civilians since way before 9/11?




Have we not killed thousands of innocent civillians since way before 9/11?

Quote:

Don't just blame the US.




I don't believe I did!

Quote:

I think all the world powers should come together and have a serious talk with them about their policies regarding human rights, and see where things go from there.




Would you consider the use of force as an acceptable option?

If such a "human rights convention" did come together should China even have top billing? Do you think they make more human rights violations per capita than any other country in the world?

In my personal opinion the Chinese have actually slowly but surely moved in a more moderate direction. Over the years they have involved themselved more heavily in international trade and I think market forces will address the extremes in their society much better than any intervention by some sort of a world moral police squad.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #12990323 - 08/02/10 12:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Are we not battling insurgents there that have been killing innocent civilians since way before 9/11?




Have we not killed thousands of innocent civillians since way before 9/11?


On purpose, and for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than to kill in cold blood? I don't believe so, no.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

I think all the world powers should come together and have a serious talk with them about their policies regarding human rights, and see where things go from there.




Would you consider the use of force as an acceptable option?

If such a "human rights convention" did come together should China even have top billing? Do you think they make more human rights violations per capita than any other country in the world?


Whether or not force would be acceptable would depend on whether or not they're willing to make changes; China has the "top billing" because they are the highest potential risk to the world if they decided to fuck shit up for everyone.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
In my personal opinion the Chinese have actually slowly but surely moved in a more moderate direction. Over the years they have involved themselved more heavily in international trade and I think market forces will address the extremes in their society much better than any intervention by some sort of a world moral police squad.


If they become powerful enough, and desire to fuck shit up for everyone, then they will. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990547 - 08/02/10 01:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

On purpose, and for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than to kill in cold blood? I don't believe so, no.




So we can justify those killings? Well we can agree to disagree there. I wanted to make the point that maybe our own societies have problems that need addressing before we criticise others.

Quote:

China has the "top billing" because they are the highest potential risk to the world if they decided to fuck shit up for everyone.




And what exactly leads you to believe that they want to "fuck shit up for everyone" ? Seems like a totally baseless accusation to me.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #12990567 - 08/02/10 01:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

On purpose, and for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than to kill in cold blood? I don't believe so, no.




So we can justify those killings? Well we can agree to disagree there. I wanted to make the point that maybe our own societies have problems that need addressing before we criticise others.


If China actually becomes a dangerous presence in the future, I don't think anything would be more important than quelling the said presence.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

China has the "top billing" because they are the highest potential risk to the world if they decided to fuck shit up for everyone.




And what exactly leads you to believe that they want to "fuck shit up for everyone" ? Seems like a totally baseless accusation to me.


They obviously don't give a shit about human rights, and considering what they've done to Tibet I don't think the claim is completely baseless.


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990618 - 08/02/10 01:16 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
People aren't outraged either because they don't care





so much for international outrage
'

a few thousand people out of 70 million, we can hardly equate that to Nazi Germany

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12990627 - 08/02/10 01:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It's not like they killed 6 million Jews in one day, neither of us know if this problem is going to grow or if it's going to go away.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990639 - 08/02/10 01:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
It's not simply "converting them to our way of life", nobody wants to force them to eat cheeseburgers and drive gas-guzzling SUVs, people just want them to honor human rights is all. Just because it would be hard, doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.




I certainly wouldn't consider cheeseburgers and SUVs 'our way of life'.  Thats just the cynical attitude that hippies project.  Our way of life very much means our idea of what human rights are.  Our idea of human rights is just that, our idea.  Its not unique to us, many others have similar ideas of what human rights are.  But by the same token, many do not share our idea of human rights.

In the end, Im not going to pretend that I dont think my way of life and idea of human rights is better - I do think my/our way is better.  But convincing others of that can be tough...

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: ModusPwnd]
    #12990648 - 08/02/10 01:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Most people believe that practicing a religion in peace is a human right; basically, anything that doesn't impose on the rights of others is a human right.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12990779 - 08/02/10 01:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


If China actually becomes a dangerous presence in the future, I don't think anything would be more important than quelling the said presence.




You almost seem to want conflict.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12992396 - 08/02/10 06:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Most people believe that practicing a religion in peace is a human right; basically, anything that doesn't impose on the rights of others is a human right.




Yea, that is very much the modern western view of things.  Its certainly not everyone's view.  I think you have to broach the philosophical idea of converting others to our 'superior' way of life before you can talk about specifics (be it china, iran, etc).

Again, I do think our way of life is superior.  That is, I do believe that practicing a religion in peace is a human right.  But Im not sure how much I believe in converting others.  At the least we can try to convert them with words and convincing arguments, but of course that doesn't get very far.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12992446 - 08/02/10 06:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
http://www.faluninfo.net/article/647/?cid=61
Quote:

The last time Xiaodan Wang saw her favorite red sweater, she was watching CNN as her father was sentenced to 16 years in prison. It was Xiaodan’s first glimpse of her father, Zhiwen Wang, in over six months, but there was no mistaking her sweater even for a moment. The bright color, a piece of clothing taken from his home hurriedly by family members after police took him from his bed on July 20, 1999, was peeking out from underneath a borrowed jacket.

Her father in CNN’s international broadcast of his trial was a man tattered by months of surviving life in police custody. His once-black hair was gray and matted, and his face looked tired and bruised. The thin summer pants he wore were barely enough protection against the cold December weather—but his spirit was clearly intact. Xiaodan could see it. The red sweater stood out like a secret message between parent and child saying to her, "Don’t worry, daughter. They haven’t broken me.”

When you meet Xiaodan, her quiet, gentle demeanor and soft-spoken tone of voice belies the tragedy she has experienced. A civil engineer in Texas, Xiaodan could easily be missed among the many faces of foreign immigrants in the United States. "Eight years,” she answers quickly when asked how long she’s been living in the United States. "And you can just call me Danielle.”

There is a lot of history in Danielle’s eyes, far too much for someone so young. At age 28, eight years after her father’s illegal arrest and initial detention, she is solid and focused as she tells the story they share.

Their remarkable journey began during her childhood in Beijing, China. It was there that her father raised her, and was also where she first learned of the meditation practice called Falun Gong (also known as Falun Dafa).

Zhiwen, a rural engineer, lived a quiet life, and raised his young daughter with the help of relatives. After he and Danielle began to practice Falun Gong in May, 1992, their entire family’s life took a turn for the better. Soon, even Zhiwen’s father saw the positive changes in the lives of his family members and took up the practice. Miraculously, the elder man’s gray hair turned black again, and his chronic health problems cleared up as he practiced the five gentle exercises of Falun Gong with his only son and young granddaughter every morning in a Beijing park.

The Wang family was not alone in their discovery of the extraordinary practice. So many people were learning Falun Gong by 1995 that the environment in China was noticeably more harmonious. Practitioners of Falun Gong’s principles of truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance were everywhere helping others and spreading compassion. By 1998, a government survey found that there were 70-100 million people practicing in China.

During these first five years, Zhiwen became a volunteer Falun Gong contact person in Beijing.

According to Danielle’s stories, Zhiwen dedicated his life to helping others. Whenever someone was having difficulty and needed a helping hand, Zhiwen was there. He lived to help others, and young Danielle grew up seeing her father’s selflessness.

Danielle left Beijing in 1998 to live in America with her mother, where she finished high school and then earned her bachelor’s degree in civil engineering—a family tradition passed down from grandfather and father. She has not seen her father since, except on CNN.

In the dawn hours of July 20, 1999, according to eyewitness accounts from neighbors, Zhiwen was kidnapped from his bed by police and taken away in waiting police vans. Practicing Falun Gong in China had literally become a crime overnight, and he was one of the thousands of practitioners throughout the country targeted for immediate arrest.

Watching from afar in America, Danielle says she found it impossible to imagine why her government would strike out at kind-hearted people. Remembering that time, she looks sad and thoughtful. "The country I grew up in was so bright, but Jiang Zemin [then leader of the Chinese Communist Party] showed its dark side," says Danielle. She still struggles to understand why her gentle and selfless father was taken away and has been held for so long, like a common criminal.

After Zhiwen’s disappearance, day after day the entire family tried everything they could think of to find out where he was being held, but to no avail. There was no word on his location or condition, and across the country Falun Gong practitioners were being crowded into jails and prisons, detention and brainwashing centers, and mental hospitals.

One day about three months after his disappearance, Danielle and her mother received a certificate of arrest from the Chinese police. They knew he was alive, but nothing else. They continued to wait and wonder for three more months. The only comfort to Danielle during this time was the knowledge that her father was strong enough mentally and physically to endure the situation. More than that, she knew that he would never renounce his beliefs, nor retaliate against any police brutality.

Finally, on December 27, 1999, an international CNN newscast aired the show trial of four Beijing Falun Dafa Association volunteers, and Zhiwen was among them. The men were obviously bruised from being beaten they stood in judgment for practicing Falun Gong and following truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.

An aunt of Danielle’s who was at the trial tried to approach Zhiwen to comb his matted hair, but was pushed away by the police. Zhiwen was given a sentence of 16 years in prison, and sent to Tianjin, and was later he was moved to Tianhe, a notorious labor camp in the northeast of China where he remains today.

The little news that filters out of China to Danielle and her family has been vague and disconnected. Rare letters are allowed through from either side—she has received two from him in the last 8 years. Sometimes news comes through that he was forced to sit on a small bench for seven days straight without food, water, or sleep. They hear that he has been continually tortured to renounce his belief in Falun Gong, but steadfastly refuses to succumb. One day Danielle’s mother got a phone call from China—it was Zhiwen. The entire conversation was about their daughter.

Since her father’s sentencing in 1999, Danielle has worked to appeal for help from the U.S. government and sympathetic supporters. She has written letter after letter to the president and met with her congressional representatives, organized a human rights walk from Houston to Washington D.C., and held press conferences and two hunger strikes to bring attention to the persecution of her father and countless other Falun Gong practitioners like him.

Perhaps most significantly, Danielle continues to practice Falun Gong. The tragedies of the past never stop her from being the positive, selfless person her father raised. She cannot return to China yet, but continues to fight for those who have no voice there. And she lives in hope that the next news of her father will be of his release.




How can China have the nerve to persecute the peaceful practitioners of Falun Gong, and think that the international community is not going to give a shit? I foresee China becoming a dangerous world power if nobody puts a stop to their bullshit...:japsmile:





As the Zap might say, if they don't like it they can leave and live in the jungles. The govt sets the rules and it's up to you to follow them.:ass:


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #12993010 - 08/02/10 08:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
It's not like they killed 6 million Jews in one day, neither of us know if this problem is going to grow or if it's going to go away.





neither of us know the actual reason these few thousand people were
arrested either, after all, there's 70 million falun gong practitioners
in china....

why poid have they not arrested the other 70 million, what were the actual
crimes of these practitioners, have the media outlets ever misled us before

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #12994832 - 08/03/10 08:24 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

not sure what is falun gong, isn't scientology banned in germany and france? i think the reason is taht falun gong has the potential to be politically active and thus a threat to the communist party, i have no idea.

and by the way, the problem in the middle east is that the government are TOO STABLE, not too unstable. thats thanks to all the support from the united states, i'm not sure it was you, but weren't you complaining that people in africa and the middle east are too lazy to overthrow their government? then someone else complain when they kill each other.

killing a million people to protect them from themselves? is that like jailing 646,042 americans for pot smoking to protect themselves? if you think any wars can be for human rights keep dreaming, it has never happened and only 2 wars could be considered to be about religion or ideology, every war is economical.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: ModusPwnd]
    #12999673 - 08/04/10 01:19 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Our way of life very much means our idea of what human rights are.  Our idea of human rights is just that, our idea.  Its not unique to us, many others have similar ideas of what human rights are.  But by the same token, many do not share our idea of human rights.





:handth:  And if it's a thugs idea (and it is) that it's his human right to rob, rape and murder everyone he likes, who are we to judge or jail him? You ask a guy to help you with your car and he beats the crap out of you and steals your car, but hey he just have a different idea of what "helping" and "violence" is. As far as he concerned real violence is you having a car while he doesn't.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: AlexD]
    #12999977 - 08/04/10 02:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And if it's a thugs idea (and it is) that it's his human right to rob, rape and murder everyone he likes, who are we to judge or jail him? You ask a guy to help you with your car and he beats the crap out of you and steals your car, but hey he just have a different idea of what "helping" and "violence" is. As far as he concerned real violence is you having a car while he doesn't.




What does this have to do with China? I believe that the Chinese do not allow or support random acts of violence on each other by their citizens. I agree, that overall, they have a different interpretation of human rights than we do and I definitely prefer our interpretation. However, I do not agree that we should ever consider using force as a means to make them agree with our opinion.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13000221 - 08/04/10 05:29 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What does this have to do with China? I believe that the Chinese do not allow or support random acts of violence on each other by their citizens. I agree, that overall, they have a different interpretation of human rights than we do and I definitely prefer our interpretation. However, I do not agree that we should ever consider using force as a means to make them agree with our opinion.





It has everything to do with China. There's no such thing in the world as "different interpretation of human rights". There are all sorts of thugs and thuggish governments who make ridiculous and lame attempts to veil their intolerant and repressive agenda as "human rights" protection. It's nothing but obvious excuses and propaganda. If you despise everyone who engages in blasphemy and want to see them dead, than you're intolerant thug, and all the babble about how "freedom from insult" is your "human right" is just that: an empty babble. That BTW happens to be exact thing Islamic governments (OIC) are doing right now and western socialists ofcourse got them covered.

Some hardcore prohibitionist would say that you smoking pot is a serious violation of his human rights as he understands them (say to live in potless society or whatever) and throwing you to jail is simply defending these rights. Somehow I don't think you'll buy such mind blowing crap in this case.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: AlexD]
    #13001722 - 08/04/10 01:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I'm with Poid on this one. The examples of China acting like a totaliarian police state are so legion that it is insane to deny it. The treatment of the Falun Gong is just one of many egregious violations that the Chinese government has doled out on its own citizens.

It's not even just with the Falun Gong. The PRC's government feels threatened by almost all of its religious and ethnic minorities to the point where it has actually written an amendment into its constitution in 1997 against "splitting the state or undermining national unity"(article 103). This vaguely defined concept has allowed the government to trump up charges and arrest almost whoever it feels like. Basically if you campaign for human rights or more respect for regional autonomy (a freedom guaranteed in the PRC constitution) you can get locked up under this clause. I know several people who have.

The amount of control the central government has over life in that country is absolutely appalling.

I've worked a lot in this field so I just wanted to throw my hat into the ring.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #13008436 - 08/05/10 05:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

better get used to em there ol poidy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100805/ap_on_re_as/as_china_us_carrier_killer

Quote:


Chinese missile could shift Pacific power balance

ABOARD THE USS GEORGE WASHINGTON – Nothing projects U.S. global air and sea power more vividly than supercarriers. Bristling with fighter jets that can reach deep into even landlocked trouble zones, America's virtually invincible carrier fleet has long enforced its dominance of the high seas.

China may soon put an end to that.

U.S. naval planners are scrambling to deal with what analysts say is a game-changing weapon being developed by China — an unprecedented carrier-killing missile called the Dong Feng 21D that could be launched from land with enough accuracy to penetrate the defenses of even the most advanced moving aircraft carrier at a distance of more than 1,500 kilometers (900 miles).

___

EDITOR'S NOTE — The USS George Washington supercarrier recently deployed off North Korea in a high-profile show of U.S. sea power. AP Tokyo News Editor Eric Talmadge was aboard the carrier, and filed this report.

___

Analysts say final testing of the missile could come as soon as the end of this year, though questions remain about how fast China will be able to perfect its accuracy to the level needed to threaten a moving carrier at sea.

The weapon, a version of which was displayed last year in a Chinese military parade, could revolutionize China's role in the Pacific balance of power, seriously weakening Washington's ability to intervene in any potential conflict over Taiwan or North Korea. It could also deny U.S. ships safe access to international waters near China's 11,200-mile (18,000-kilometer) -long coastline.

While a nuclear bomb could theoretically sink a carrier, assuming its user was willing to raise the stakes to atomic levels, the conventionally-armed Dong Feng 21D's uniqueness is in its ability to hit a powerfully defended moving target with pin-point precision.

The Chinese Defense Ministry did not immediately respond to the AP's request for a comment.

Funded by annual double-digit increases in the defense budget for almost every year of the past two decades, the Chinese navy has become Asia's largest and has expanded beyond its traditional mission of retaking Taiwan to push its sphere of influence deeper into the Pacific and protect vital maritime trade routes.

"The Navy has long had to fear carrier-killing capabilities," said Patrick Cronin, senior director of the Asia-Pacific Security Program at the nonpartisan, Washington-based Center for a New American Security. "The emerging Chinese antiship missile capability, and in particular the DF 21D, represents the first post-Cold War capability that is both potentially capable of stopping our naval power projection and deliberately designed for that purpose."

Setting the stage for a possible conflict, Beijing has grown increasingly vocal in its demands for the U.S. to stay away from the wide swaths of ocean — covering much of the Yellow, East and South China seas — where it claims exclusivity.

It strongly opposed plans to hold U.S.-South Korean war games in the Yellow Sea off the northeastern Chinese coast, saying the participation of the USS George Washington supercarrier, with its 1,092-foot (333-meter) flight deck and 6,250 personnel, would be a provocation because it put Beijing within striking range of U.S. F-18 warplanes.

The carrier instead took part in maneuvers held farther away in the Sea of Japan.

U.S. officials deny Chinese pressure kept it away, and say they will not be told by Beijing where they can operate.

"We reserve the right to exercise in international waters anywhere in the world," Rear Adm. Daniel Cloyd, who headed the U.S. side of the exercises, said aboard the carrier during the maneuvers, which ended last week.

But the new missile, if able to evade the defenses of a carrier and of the vessels sailing with it, could undermine that policy.

"China can reach out and hit the U.S. well before the U.S. can get close enough to the mainland to hit back," said Toshi Yoshihara, an associate professor at the U.S. Naval War College. He said U.S. ships have only twice been that vulnerable — against Japan in World War II and against Soviet bombers in the Cold War.

Carrier-killing missiles "could have an enduring psychological effect on U.S. policymakers," he e-mailed to The AP. "It underscores more broadly that the U.S. Navy no longer rules the waves as it has since the end of World War II. The stark reality is that sea control cannot be taken for granted anymore."

Yoshihara said the weapon is causing considerable consternation in Washington, though — with attention focused on land wars in Afghanistan and Iraq — its implications haven't been widely discussed in public.

Analysts note that while much has been made of China's efforts to ready a carrier fleet of its own, it would likely take decades to catch U.S. carrier crews' level of expertise, training and experience.

But Beijing does not need to match the U.S. carrier for carrier. The Dong Feng 21D, smarter, and vastly cheaper, could successfully attack a U.S. carrier, or at least deter it from getting too close.

U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned of the threat in a speech last September at the Air Force Association Convention.

"When considering the military-modernization programs of countries like China, we should be concerned less with their potential ability to challenge the U.S. symmetrically — fighter to fighter or ship to ship — and more with their ability to disrupt our freedom of movement and narrow our strategic options," he said.

Gates said China's investments in cyber and anti-satellite warfare, anti-air and anti-ship weaponry, along with ballistic missiles, "could threaten America's primary way to project power" through its forward air bases and carrier strike groups.

The Pentagon has been worried for years about China getting an anti-ship ballistic missile. The Pentagon considers such a missile an "anti-access," weapon, meaning that it could deny others access to certain areas.

The Air Force's top surveillance and intelligence officer, Lt. Gen. David Deptula, told reporters this week that China's effort to increase anti-access capability is part of a worrisome trend.

He did not single out the DF 21D, but said: "While we might not fight the Chinese, we may end up in situations where we'll certainly be opposing the equipment that they build and sell around the world."

Questions remain over when — and if — China will perfect the technology; hitting a moving carrier is no mean feat, requiring state-of-the-art guidance systems, and some experts believe it will take China a decade or so to field a reliable threat. Others, however, say final tests of the missile could come in the next year or two.

Former Navy commander James Kraska, a professor of international law and sea power at the U.S. Naval War College, recently wrote a controversial article in the magazine Orbis outlining a hypothetical scenario set just five years from now in which a Deng Feng 21D missile with a penetrator warhead sinks the USS George Washington.

That would usher in a "new epoch of international order in which Beijing emerges to displace the United States."

While China's Defense Ministry never comments on new weapons before they become operational, the DF 21D — which would travel at 10 times the speed of sound and carry conventional payloads — has been much discussed by military buffs online.

A pseudonymous article posted on Xinhuanet, website of China's official news agency, imagines the U.S. dispatching the George Washington to aid Taiwan against a Chinese attack.

The Chinese would respond with three salvos of DF 21D, the first of which would pierce the hull, start fires and shut down flight operations, the article says. The second would knock out its engines and be accompanied by air attacks. The third wave, the article says, would "send the George Washington to the bottom of the ocean."

Comments on the article were mostly positive.




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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #13010768 - 08/06/10 03:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Pretty cool weapon. If they can pull it off then more power to em. Literally.


--------------------
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Icelander]
    #13012407 - 08/06/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

literally.  if they could sink our largest and most fortified carrier in one swipe, it would be devastating to not only our military but to the seriously bloated egos of our politicians and many of our citizens.  if they could do that, i am almost certain it would end in nuclear war.  without our superfleets, the only thing we have left against china is nuclear.

although we are near perfecting laser defense weapons..... and the cycle continues.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #13012826 - 08/06/10 02:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

That BTW happens to be exact thing Islamic governments (OIC) are doing right now and western socialists ofcourse got them covered.




who is defending any muslim nation? i personally am pissed at other socialist for buying into bourgeois propaganda against other countries, sure we can criticize them but too often i hear feminist being in favor of wars, homosexual rights advocate in favor of wars, men wiht democracy as an ideal in favor ofwars. but bombs kill woman,homosexuals and democrats indiscriminately. sure we can be opposed to their system of government, but i refuse to buy in lies to justify deaths and this too often happen.
Quote:

It's not even just with the Falun Gong. The PRC's government feels threatened by almost all of its religious and ethnic minorities to the point where it has actually written an amendment into its constitution in 1997 against "splitting the state or undermining national unity"(article 103). This vaguely defined concept has allowed the government to trump up charges and arrest almost whoever it feels like. Basically if you campaign for human rights or more respect for regional autonomy (a freedom guaranteed in the PRC constitution) you can get locked up under this clause. I know several people who have.




yes there are political prisoners, but i doubt it is based on this clause, we have the same clause in canada and quebec population is basicly bullshitted into thinking we can't separate. but yeah i agree that china probably jails people for political reasons,most state in the world do, but china is another matter.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13013186 - 08/06/10 03:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I agree, that overall, they have a different interpretation of human rights than we do and I definitely prefer our interpretation.


They sure as fuck do, they believe that humans do not have any inherent rights, & that the government can choose to imprison people for exercising their "rights":

Human rights in the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia:
Quote:

Although the 1982 constitution guarantees freedom of speech, the Chinese government often uses the subversion of state power clause to imprison those who are critical of the government.






Quote:

GazzBut said:
However, I do not agree that we should ever consider using force as a means to make them agree with our opinion.


This is absolutely retarded, all conflicts/wars brew up because of some sort of disagreement, are you saying that nothing is worth going to war for? :flowstone:

Nobody is concerned about China for the mere reason that they don't 100% agree with us on everything, the concern stems from various observations of the Chinese government reducing the quality of life of some of its citizens via the implementation of its fascist policies.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13014195 - 08/06/10 07:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

First off I'll just clarify that I'm NOT unsympathetic to people living in a totalitarian state... It has to suck more than we can possibly fathom.

My point is, however, that if 70 million practitioners aren't willing to stand up for their rights, then what is the US or the "international community" supposed to do? Nothing.

You can't write laws that effect other nations without facing some kind of backlash, and to go to war with China would also be "retarded" since they play a major role in global politics and commerce. Not to mention they have a near endless supply of soldiers willing to die on their leader's whim.

These problems HAVE to be solved internally. If a foreign agency or organization comes in to change things, no matter how the people themselves feel towards the foreigners, there will be an overwhelming negative reaction.

Also, I'd just like to take the time to point out that the US did aide the Communist Chinese government and Mao Zedong while they were killing/locking up political dissidents. In fact, Zbigniew Brzezinski, Obama's national security advisor, took many trips to China as a representative of the US during this time.

I find it surprising that a nation which claims to be free and seek peaceful routes to world stability helps prop up Totalitarian regimes behind closed doors.

..Wait. It's not surprising at all.

:wayshegoes:

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Diablojoe420]
    #13014443 - 08/06/10 08:27 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Diablojoe420 said:
My point is, however, that if 70 million practitioners aren't willing to stand up for their rights, then what is the US or the "international community" supposed to do? Nothing.


Just like how the US and the international community weren't supposed to help out the Jews who were being massacred by Nazi Germany in WWII, right? :whatever:



Quote:

Diablojoe420 said:
You can't write laws that effect other nations without facing some kind of backlash, and to go to war with China would also be "retarded" since they play a major role in global politics and commerce. Not to mention they have a near endless supply of soldiers willing to die on their leader's whim.


I am fully aware of China's role in global commerce, it's part of what makes them a powerful potential enemy; what specifically are you referring to when you say that they play a major role in global politics?

That they have a "near endless supply of soldiers willing to die on their leader's whim" is also part of what makes them a powerful potential enemy.



Quote:

Diablojoe420 said:
These problems HAVE to be solved internally. If a foreign agency or organization comes in to change things, no matter how the people themselves feel towards the foreigners, there will be an overwhelming negative reaction.


What if they have no intentions of changing anything?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 12:13 AM)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13014581 - 08/06/10 08:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, the Chinese government is pretty oppressive, but they have been making some moves in the right direction. Falun Gong, if I remember correctly, was somehow associated with the people who want democracy in china, which I read is why it was targeted. It is wrong, but China doesn't even allow Christianity or bibles in their country. They print them in massive quantities, but none are allowed to be distributed in China. So it makes sense that they would ban something like Falun Gong.

I think in the future China is much more of a danger to itself than to anyone else. One of the biggest issues in China right now is the ethnic tension between the Muslim community and the "han" Chinese. China is fucking with an enormous number of people with connections to organizations like Al Qaeda and other radical Islamic movements. In five or ten years, that's really going to come back to hurt them. The middle east after all has much easier access to China than to the US.

But more than that, China's extremely rapid industrialization is already hurting them a lot. There are massive chemical "spills" and industrial "accidents" all the time in China. It's not like you can just clean up a river once you've dumped thousands of barrels of random industrial chemicals into it. China is going to be paying for it's industrial accidents that happen now for decades to come.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: nooneman]
    #13014767 - 08/06/10 09:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

There's a HUGE difference between Nazi Germany and the modern Chinese "Empire" you have to realize....roughly 2 billion more loyal citizens, they're a key supplier of electronics, among other things, to the US, they have 30 times the amount of land the Nazis did, like 90% of their population SUPPORTS what goes on, and they haven't invaded any foreign countries.

They are a manufacturing GIANT--imagine if, like we did during WWII, all of their resources were converted for supplying and transporting their military. It would be a nightmare. And challenging their RIGHT to govern THEIR LAND will only guarantee that kind of reaction.

Instead of viewing them as a "potential, powerful, enemy" we should start viewing them as a "potential, powerful, ally"--you're not going to change China. Or the middle east. Or the Congo. Unless, of course, you stop the problem at the source. This cannot be done by foreigners. Sorry.

Going to war is only justified if they attack beyond their borders. Until then it's up to the Chinese people to take a stand.



Here's a hypothetical for you: Our prisons are overcrowded with non-violent drug offenders. A nation decides to decriminalize all drugs and is very passionate about the subject. They view our non-violent offenders as political prisoners and thus decide to intervene; demanding said prisoners be freed with the threat of economic sanctions or embargoes on certain goods.

How would we react, ya think?

"Oh, sure thing, guys." would NOT be our response.



I will also add that US companies like Google actively participate in the oppression. So there is equal guilt here across the board. Governments collaborate at the expense of the citizens. Only to varying degrees.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13015267 - 08/06/10 11:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Diablojoe420 said:
My point is, however, that if 70 million practitioners aren't willing to stand up for their rights, then what is the US or the "international community" supposed to do? Nothing.


Just like how the US or the international community weren't supposed to help out the Jews who were being massacred by Nazi Germany in WWII, right? :whatever:




you keep making this comparison yet there's nothing there to compare it
to. a few thousand out of 70 million in china alone were arrested, you
show falun gong owned news sources to validate the claim that they're
being massacred? why do 70 million of them still walk free, I suspect
there were far more serious crimes and these people being arrested
simply happen to be members of the club



Quote:

Quote:

Diablojoe420 said:
These problems HAVE to be solved internally. If a foreign agency or organization comes in to change things, no matter how the people themselves feel towards the foreigners, there will be an overwhelming negative reaction.


What if they have no intentions of changing anything?




internally doesnt always mean 'by the chinese government'

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13015860 - 08/07/10 04:18 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

like i said, i think scientology or certain cults are banned in france or germany, why is there no outrage about this?

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13017599 - 08/07/10 03:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
like i said, i think scientology or certain cults are banned in france or germany, why is there no outrage about this?




You have never seen people pissed off about the lack of freedom in Europe?  I have.  But Europeans in general are more willing to give up freedom if it makes their society more aesthetic and P.C.  Canada is the same way, its a crime to think and say certain things.  Free speech and religious tolerance is not as widespread in the western world as Americans like to think.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid] * 1
    #13021838 - 08/08/10 01:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You're pissed off at the Chinese government because they persecute the Falun Gong nutcases?  THAT'S what your focus is on?  Fuck me.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13021890 - 08/08/10 02:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This is also kinda fucked up. No spanking it by decree of the Politburo :crankey: 
http://mashable.com/2010/01/01/china-arrests-5000/

I mean, take your pick with these guys. They're running one hell of a repressive state over there. Even asking for improvements in human rights is grounds to get your ass locked up for attempting to subvert the state. What a goatfuck.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13022267 - 08/08/10 03:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
You're pissed off at the Chinese government because they persecute the Falun Gong nutcases?  THAT'S what your focus is on?  Fuck me.


I'm pissed off at the Chinese government for several reasons, reading about Falun Gong just reminded me how fucked up it can really be, and prompted me to make this thread. :japsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 12:22 AM)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13022561 - 08/08/10 04:50 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

fuck falun gong, what about the tibetans?


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LeftyBurnz]
    #13022579 - 08/08/10 04:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leftysurprise said:
fuck falun gong, what about the tibetans?




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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13022680 - 08/08/10 05:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I already discussed them on the first page of this thread:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

GazzBut said:
And what exactly leads you to believe that they want to "fuck shit up for everyone" ? Seems like a totally baseless accusation to me.


They obviously don't give a shit about human rights, and considering what they've done to Tibet I don't think the claim is completely baseless.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13025709 - 08/09/10 09:31 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

fuck this lets argue randomly, is what i just read.

a whole range of topics have been covered here... mostly aobut china... and how the chinese government is and has always been fucked fucked fucked.

soem people there i know, need to ahve their balls chopped off, sadly even if they have said wife and children... becaue they are evil... and they need to die by the hands of some very angry convicted person; what some people truly deserve. too bad there are probably a bunch of idiots willing to kill and die for that person.

oh well... i'll kill him or her if i get the chance... probably won't though. :shrug:

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: akira_akuma]
    #13025859 - 08/09/10 10:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

akira_akuma said:
soem people there i know, need to ahve their balls chopped off, sadly even if they have said wife and children... becaue they are evil...





you mean like the falun gong members

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OfflineTesla
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13028107 - 08/09/10 05:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I fucked this Chinese chick who's actually a citizen.

It's shocking how brainwashed the general population is and in itself that's the biggest issue.

The Chinese sold out for a Hungry Man Dinner HD Porn and Monday Night Football just like the rest of us.

Americas just as fucked up. For instance I enjoy banging 16 year olds dropping LSD while I do it and prank phone calling Sonic Drive Ins with Spawn impersonations. Where the fuck is my amnesty?

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13028793 - 08/09/10 08:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

akira_akuma said:
soem people there i know, need to ahve their balls chopped off, sadly even if they have said wife and children... becaue they are evil...





you mean like the falun gong members



maybe? :shrug: i didn't really read the articles. oops.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13034925 - 08/11/10 02:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

They sure as fuck do, they believe that humans do not have any inherent rights, & that the government can choose to imprison people for exercising their "rights":





I don't see how humans do have inherent rights. Humans only have the rights other humans decide to grant them. Unless of course you can point me to the place in the genetic code that gives us these mystical rights? No, I didnt think so.

Quote:

This is absolutely retarded, all conflicts/wars brew up because of some sort of disagreement, are you saying that nothing is worth going to war for? :flowstone:




I dont think China's interpretation of human rights is a good reason to go to war, no. A war that could likely end in the extermination of life on this planet.

But you think thats a good idea? not in anyway retarded? Hey, end of life as we know it but at least you proved a point right!


At the end of the day, 50 years ago human rights in the good ol' US of A were not exactly a shining beacon were they? But over time they improved. I think things have improved in China, of course they still have a long way to go but I think we should recognise they have made improvements rather than punish them for the same crimes we ourselves have commited in the past.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: AlexD]
    #13034935 - 08/11/10 02:05 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

There's no such thing in the world as "different interpretation of human rights".




Absolute nonsense. Please point me to the definitive list of human rights as agreed by all of humanity.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13034962 - 08/11/10 02:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Although the 1982 constitution guarantees freedom of speech, the Chinese government often uses the subversion of state power clause to imprison those who are critical of the government.




Thank god that your government would never dream of doing anything remotely like that!


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13035241 - 08/11/10 05:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

mind showing us where people are being arrested for being critical of government in the US

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13035308 - 08/11/10 06:12 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I did not say that had happened. I merely suggested that your government (or any other government in the west)  may have the capability to do something remotely similar.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13035311 - 08/11/10 06:14 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Having said that, nobody knows for sure why many of the inmates of Guantanamo bay have been imprisoned. Does that not count as they dont have US citizen status though?


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13035317 - 08/11/10 06:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I did not say that had happened. I merely suggested that your government (or any other government in the west)  may have the capability to do something remotely similar.




so no one in the US is being arrested for speaking against government yet
you cite a retaded website to suggest it may happen under the
patriot act which doesnt have the language required to restrict our first
amendment rights... brilliance!


as for guantanamo, they're enemy combatants, they're not being detained
for flag burning, they're being detained instead of shot for attempting
to kill US service personnel and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan

of course if you can show us one that was arrested only for speaking out...

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13035318 - 08/11/10 06:30 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13035333 - 08/11/10 06:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

so no one in the US is being arrested for speaking against government yet
you cite a retaded website to suggest it may happen under the
patriot act




Wrong! I said "remotely similar" that does not imply "exactly the same as" which you seem to have assumed I meant.

The Patriot act certainly made it alot easier for the authorities to arrest people on flimsy pretences and many considered the act an erosion of civil liberties.

Quote:


as for guantanamo, they're enemy combatants, they're not being detained
for flag burning, they're being detained instead of shot for attempting
to kill US service personnel and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan




Obviously many would disagree that the US can prove all Guantanamo inmates are genuine enemy combatants and many have also suggested that the US have violated the human rights of many of the prisoners there but lets not derail the thread getting into that.

If you want to start a new thread to discuss this then go ahead (It doesnt particulary interest me) but I believe that subject of this thread is the human rights situation in China.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13036743 - 08/11/10 02:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

This is absolutely retarded, all conflicts/wars brew up because of some sort of disagreement, are you saying that nothing is worth going to war for? :flowstone:




I dont think China's interpretation of human rights is a good reason to go to war, no. A war that could likely end in the extermination of life on this planet.


How likely is it that that would happen, and how did you determine this likelihood?



Quote:

GazzBut said:
But you think thats a good idea? not in anyway retarded? Hey, end of life as we know it but at least you proved a point right!


It's fucking retarded that you think the only reason we shouldn't go to war with China is that it could end all life on Earth.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
At the end of the day, 50 years ago human rights in the good ol' US of A were not exactly a shining beacon were they? But over time they improved. I think things have improved in China, of course they still have a long way to go but I think we should recognise they have made improvements rather than punish them for the same crimes we ourselves have commited in the past.


That human rights in the US in the past are not the same as they are today is irrelevant, it's almost like you're saying that we'd be hypocrites for wanting to impose stricter human rights laws on China.

If China is actively & successfully improving its human rights issues, then I think it's fine that we leave them alone; if not, then I think that the international community needs to come together and start fixing things itself.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 12:27 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13037508 - 08/11/10 04:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

When you start from a gulag population 1 billion and you let 10 people out of the gulag that is progress.  It's also a farce.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13037659 - 08/11/10 04:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Can we just clear something up. At this point in time if Obama declared war on China would you give him your whole hearted support?

Quote:

How likely is it that that would happen, and how did you determine this likelihood?




Two nuclear super powers go to war? Do I really need to explain how it could end in tears?!

Quote:

It's fucking retarded that you think the only reason we shouldn't go to war with China is that it could end all life on Earth.




I did not say that at all. Spend less time frothing at the mouth and more time paying attention. If the Chinese had threatened to attack or had attacked the US then I think the US would obviously be right to defend themselves. I dont however think it would be right for the US to put potentially billions of peoples lives at risks to satisfy some moral crusade.

Anyway, can you explain how attacking a country on the basis of its human rights record can ever make sense? Surely you want to help the innocent civillians who the government treat so poorly? So you want to help them by attacking their country? You do realise that in the process you will kill huge swathes of the population you so nobly want to help? Hmmmm....Now thats fucking retarded to use your own ill mannered turn of phrase.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13037879 - 08/11/10 05:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Can we just clear something up. At this point in time if Obama declared war on China would you give him your whole hearted support?


It would depend on why he wants to go to war, and how he intends to go about fighting China.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

How likely is it that that would happen, and how did you determine this likelihood?




Two nuclear super powers go to war? Do I really need to explain how it could end in tears?!


Yeah, I know how it could "end in tears", but I don't think that would be a likely outcome, I think China would concede before it decides to attack the whole world with nuclear weapons. And if it doesn't, that would just go to show how much they don't give a fuck about humanity, and how much of a violent danger they are to the rest of the world.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
I dont however think it would be right for the US to put potentially billions of peoples lives at risks to satisfy some moral crusade.


The satisfaction of some "moral crusade" has nothing to do with why I think the international community should impose sanctions on China if they don't change some of their totalitarian policies, I'm worried about some of the things the Chinese government does to its citizens, and am also worried that it might in the future use its size & power as an advantage to terrorize other nations.

Going to war with them would be putting billions of lives at risk, but not doing anything could also put just as many if not more lives at risk.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Anyway, can you explain how attacking a country on the basis of its human rights record can ever make sense? Surely you want to help the innocent civillians who the government treat so poorly? So you want to help them by attacking their country? You do realise that in the process you will kill huge swathes of the population you so nobly want to help?


Not necessarily, not if we combat them effectively--of course, collateral damage in wars is inevitable, but it can always be reduced by taking some precautionary measures.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Hmmmm....Now thats fucking retarded to use your own ill mannered turn of phrase.


It's fucking retarded that you think "huge swaths of the population" will have to die.




Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When you start from a gulag population 1 billion and you let 10 people out of the gulag that is progress.  It's also a farce.


Huh?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 12:29 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13037904 - 08/11/10 05:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:


Quote:

zappaisgod said:
When you start from a gulag population 1 billion and you let 10 people out of the gulag that is progress.  It's also a farce.


Huh?




What's so hard to understand?  They get zero credit from me for moving from abysmally hideous to merely completely hideous.  They're government is a totalitarian thugocracy and has been for ages.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13037913 - 08/11/10 05:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They're government is a totalitarian thugocracy and has been for ages.


Which is why they need to be put to a stop before they become unstoppable. :japsmile:


PS- *Their


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13039965 - 08/12/10 02:03 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I think China would concede before it decides to attack the whole world with nuclear weapons. And if it doesn't, that would just go to show how much they don't give a fuck about humanity, and how much of a violent danger they are to the rest of the world.




This paragraph makes me laugh! China would just concede (Wtf? based on what??) but if they didnt concede (In a war that the US would have started) it would prove that THEY (not the aggressor??) present a violent danger to the world!!!!

Seriously, Are you George Bush in disguise?

Quote:

The satisfaction of some "moral crusade" has nothing to do with why I think the international community should impose sanctions on China if they don't change some of their totalitarian policies




Quote:

I'm worried about some of the things the Chinese government does to its citizens




Err...do you even read what you write?

Quote:

I'm worried about some of the things the Chinese government does to its citizens, and am also worried that it might in the future use its size & power as an advantage to terrorize other nations.





But at the same time you condone the use of US size and power to terrorize China? Blatant double standards.

Quote:

Going to war with them would be putting billions of lives at risk, but not doing anything could also put just as many if not more lives at risk.




Based on what? Although the Chinese definitely treat their own people in an unacceptable fashion please provide me with some kind of evidence that they intend to start a world war?

Quote:

It's fucking retarded that you think "huge swaths of the population" will have to die.




Oh ok, so you intend to have a gigantic pillow fight instead of a conventional war? Why didnt you say? I can totally get on board with that!

Or perhaps you have no comprehension of what conventional war actually entails? Take a look at the stats on how many civilians have died in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even the low estimates seem shocking to me. In a war with a much more powerful enemy I think we would see far higher civilian deaths and it could also include US citizens.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13041122 - 08/12/10 11:58 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

I think China would concede before it decides to attack the whole world with nuclear weapons. And if it doesn't, that would just go to show how much they don't give a fuck about humanity, and how much of a violent danger they are to the rest of the world.




This paragraph makes me laugh! China would just concede (Wtf? based on what??)...


Based on international pressure, like I explained earlier.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
...but if they didnt concede (In a war that the US would have started) it would prove that THEY (not the aggressor??) present a violent danger to the world!!!!


Goddamn, are you retarded? Did I ever say that it would be a war that the US started? Do you not understand that, if China refuses to concede under international pressure, and instead decides to nuke the entire planet, then it would show how trigger-happy and dangerous they can really be?

Jesus Christ, we wouldn't be overthrowing their government and enslaving their citizens or anything like that, we would only be there to put a stop to the fascist bullshit, so that many lives may in the future be improved--if they'd rather nuke the Earth than improve the lives of their citizens, then fuck them. :thebird:



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

The satisfaction of some "moral crusade" has nothing to do with why I think the international community should impose sanctions on China if they don't change some of their totalitarian policies




Quote:

I'm worried about some of the things the Chinese government does to its citizens




Err...do you even read what you write?


You call that a moral crusade? What fucking war, then, would you consider to not be a moral crusade?



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

I'm worried about some of the things the Chinese government does to its citizens, and am also worried that it might in the future use its size & power as an advantage to terrorize other nations.





But at the same time you condone the use of US size and power to terrorize China? Blatant double standards.


The only thing blatant here is your hilarious inability to read properly--when in the fuck did I say that I want China to be terrorized? When did I say that I think only the US should be involved in trying to change them?



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Going to war with them would be putting billions of lives at risk, but not doing anything could also put just as many if not more lives at risk.




Based on what? Although the Chinese definitely treat their own people in an unacceptable fashion please provide me with some kind of evidence that they intend to start a world war?


No evidence, just mere speculation; that they treat their own people in an unacceptable fashion should give you a clue, though. Also the fact that they're rapidly becoming a very powerful world presence.



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

It's fucking retarded that you think "huge swaths of the population" will have to die.




Oh ok, so you intend to have a gigantic pillow fight instead of a conventional war? Why didnt you say? I can totally get on board with that!

Or perhaps you have no comprehension of what conventional war actually entails? Take a look at the stats on how many civilians have died in Iraq and Afghanistan.


:huxleyfacepalm:

Is the frequency of suicide bombers in China who kill their own civilians equal to, or anywhere near that of the Mid-East? Do you not understand that the relatively high rates of civilian casualties in the Mid-East is due to the fact that we're fighting an enemy who uses guerilla warfare tactics? Do you actually expect China to use such tactics if they were to face the whole world in battle, do you really think that the world's largest military force is going to fight like the insurgents in the Mid-East? :imslow:



Quote:

GazzBut said:
Even the low estimates seem shocking to me. In a war with a much more powerful enemy I think we would see far higher civilian deaths and it could also include US citizens.


The number of China's civilian casualties would depend on China--if they insist on fighting only in highly populated areas, then that number will most likely be higher.

Yes, there is also a possibility that there will be US civilian casualties, but I don't think it's a high one.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13041227 - 08/12/10 12:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Jesus Christ, we wouldn't be overthrowing their government and enslaving their citizens or anything like that, we would only be there to put a stop to the fascist bullshit






why is that our responsibility, I dont live there, it has no effect on my
life, it affects theirs so I figure if they want change they'll make the
change, if they dont they must be content with the way things are

isnt one of the biggest bitches about the US is that we're all up in
peoples shit, we're out their policing the world, not my business


Quote:

Is the frequency of suicide bombers in China who kill their own civilians equal to, or anywhere near that of the Mid-East? Do you not understand that the relatively high rates of civilian casualties in the Mid-East is due to the fact that we're fighting an enemy who uses guerilla warfare tactics? Do you actually expect China to use such tactics if they were to face the whole world in battle, do you really think that the world's largest military force is going to fight like the insurgents in the Mid-East? :imslow:





you're new to the world so I can see that you wouldnt know that they've
had suicide bombings in the middle east for better than 100 years,
they've always had a fight going with anyone available, there may be a
few more now but this isnt new to them

in fact, groups like the IRA have been pretty low key for the last 10
years, the IRA being the Irish Republican Army, a group of "Freedom
Fighters" out of Northern Ireland

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13041260 - 08/12/10 12:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well we seem to have reached the point of going round in circles and I have not really enjoyed debating this with you so I will call it a day for this thread I think. Peace.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13041295 - 08/12/10 12:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Jesus Christ, we wouldn't be overthrowing their government and enslaving their citizens or anything like that, we would only be there to put a stop to the fascist bullshit






why is that our responsibility, I dont live there, it has no effect on my
life, it affects theirs so I figure if they want change they'll make the
change, if they dont they must be content with the way things are


Some are content, hell, maybe even most are--those who aren't content are not allowed to speak out against their government, they don't even know what their punishment for doing so would be because the Chinese government has the power to give them whatever sentence it pleases, regardless of the crime.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
isnt one of the biggest bitches about the US is that we're all up in
peoples shit, we're out their policing the world, not my business


Well as I said earlier, I think it should be an international effort, sort of like the war on terrorism.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Is the frequency of suicide bombers in China who kill their own civilians equal to, or anywhere near that of the Mid-East? Do you not understand that the relatively high rates of civilian casualties in the Mid-East is due to the fact that we're fighting an enemy who uses guerilla warfare tactics? Do you actually expect China to use such tactics if they were to face the whole world in battle, do you really think that the world's largest military force is going to fight like the insurgents in the Mid-East? :imslow:





you're new to the world so I can see that you wouldnt know that they've
had suicide bombings in the middle east for better than 100 years,
they've always had a fight going with anyone available, there may be a
few more now but this isnt new to them

in fact, groups like the IRA have been pretty low key for the last 10
years, the IRA being the Irish Republican Army, a group of "Freedom
Fighters" out of Northern Ireland


I don't really know what your point is here, I never doubted that the Mid-East has been a violent shithole for centuries. :goatse:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (11/08/12 07:03 AM)

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OfflineDiablojoe420
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13041408 - 08/12/10 01:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
isnt one of the biggest bitches about the US is that we're all up in
peoples shit, we're out their policing the world, not my business


Well as I said
earlier, I think it should be an international effort, sort of like the war on terrorism.




Yeah, because that's going SO well.

Let's get this started. I can't wait to see which of our enumerated rights gets shit on next to provide the world a little more peace-of-mind.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut] * 1
    #13041472 - 08/12/10 01:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Well we seem to have reached the point of going round in circles and I have not really enjoyed debating this with you so I will call it a day for this thread I think. Peace.




It is much like jamming a 6" screw driver into your ear (or at least how I imagine that would feel).


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #13044498 - 08/13/10 12:15 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

so no one in the US is being arrested for speaking against government yet
you cite a retaded website to suggest it may happen under the
patriot act which doesnt have the language required to restrict our first
amendment rights... brilliance!


as for guantanamo, they're enemy combatants, they're not being detained
for flag burning, they're being detained instead of shot for attempting
to kill US service personnel and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan

of course if you can show us one that was arrested only for speaking out...



http://www.prisonactivist.org/archive/pps+pows/pplist-alpha.shtml

yes... they have mde up charge on them, isn't that great? oh i'm not saying it's the same, but if yo don't think there is any sort of intimidation of activists or agent provocateur trying to fuck over your orgs then you are pretty damn stupid.

by the way the patriot act doesn't have the language to restrict the first amendment.. o rly? care to explain that.
Quote:

It's fucking retarded that you think the only reason we shouldn't go to war with China is that it could end all life on Earth.



maybe not the only one, but sure as hell is a good fucking one, let's destroy life on earth so the world can clearly see china is evil yay.
Quote:

The satisfaction of some "moral crusade" has nothing to do with why I think the international community should impose sanctions on China if they don't change some of their totalitarian policies, I'm worried about some of the things the Chinese government does to its citizens, and am also worried that it might in the future use its size & power as an advantage to terrorize other nations.

Going to war with them would be putting billions of lives at risk, but not doing anything could also put just as many if not more lives at risk.




are you fucking kidding me, going at war at them would kill less people than not going at war with them, this is the most screwed logic i've ever seen.
Quote:

Not necessarily, not if we combat them effectively--of course, collateral damage in wars is inevitable, but it can always be reduced by taking some precautionary measures.



Vietnam war:
South Vietnamese civilian dead: 1,581,000*[7]
Cambodian civilian dead: 700,000–1,000,000*
North Vietnamese civilian dead: ~2,000,000[12]
Laotian civilian dead: ~50,000*
Total civilian dead: ~4,331,000


haha no suicide bombing, disprove your bullshit.
Quote:

You call that a moral crusade? What fucking war, then, would you consider to not be a moral crusade?



what would you consider a moral crusade in the first place? all wars are economical, drop the shining knight in armor bullshit, attack burma if you want to pretend challenging human rights.
Quote:

I don't really know what your point is here, I never doubted that the Mid-East has been a violent shithole for centuries.



obviously a racist dumbass too, suicide bombing has been everywhere for centuries, communist in russia used it against tsar ministers. which lenin hated because those people inevitably were replaced by other and he prefered mass action.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13044932 - 08/13/10 04:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Replying to the person who actually said those things is really not all that difficult for most of us.

Why is it for you?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13045099 - 08/13/10 06:07 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

so no one in the US is being arrested for speaking against government yet
you cite a retaded website to suggest it may happen under the
patriot act which doesnt have the language required to restrict our first
amendment rights... brilliance!


as for guantanamo, they're enemy combatants, they're not being detained
for flag burning, they're being detained instead of shot for attempting
to kill US service personnel and civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan

of course if you can show us one that was arrested only for speaking out...



http://www.prisonactivist.org/archive/pps+pows/pplist-alpha.shtml

yes... they have mde up charge on them, isn't that great?





made up charges?

the first name I noticed, Mumia Abu-Jamal, killed a cop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mumia_Abu-Jamal

Ali Khalid Abdullah, Assault with Intent to Rob While Armed because he
decided vigilante justice should be served against people that were not
on trial, sounds to me like another thieving fuckhead that deserves prison and it's not his first offense, in fact he became an activist in prison. he was arrested with loads of his friends who were engaged in a shootout with the police

Charles Sims Africa, another cop killer

Imam Jamil Al-Amin, impersonating a cop, theft and traffic violations,
failed to appear, a warrant was issued, this doesnt include all the
other offenses he's committed in the past including murder, aggravated
assault, firearms offenses

I remember this guy because it was atlanta
http://www.danielpipes.org/97/the-curious-case-of-jamil-al-amin

Quote:

oh i'm not saying it's the same,




because it's not the same, each of them is in prison for violent crime,
many are habitual violators, then again it may be the same thing because
Poid and others sympathetic to these very few falun gong 'prisoners'
have yet to show what the charges were, I mean 8000 out of 70mil, it
sure doesnt sound like political persecution to me


Quote:

Vietnam war:
South Vietnamese civilian dead: 1,581,000*[7]
Cambodian civilian dead: 700,000–1,000,000*
North Vietnamese civilian dead: ~2,000,000[12]
Laotian civilian dead: ~50,000*
Total civilian dead: ~4,331,000


haha no suicide bombing, disprove your bullshit.




first, where's your info come from, second, you have no clue what viet
nam was like, the VC killed more of the civilians than the US troops,
no, the US wasnt innocent either but they didnt cut the heads off of
little girls and post them around villages, they didnt boobytrap women
and children i hopes of killing a few GIs, I have 7 uncles that served
in Viet Nam, 2 of them had lived with me at some point for more than a
year, I have a bit more insight into what happened in that conflict than
you would, I've seen the pictures to brought home

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13045131 - 08/13/10 06:29 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
Jesus Christ, we wouldn't be overthrowing their government and enslaving their citizens or anything like that, we would only be there to put a stop to the fascist bullshit






why is that our responsibility, I dont live there, it has no effect on my
life, it affects theirs so I figure if they want change they'll make the
change, if they dont they must be content with the way things are


Some are content, hell, maybe even most are--those who aren't content are not allowed to speak out against their government, they don't even know what their punishment for doing so would be because the Chinese government has the power to give them whatever sentence they please, regardless of the crime.




bullshit, they know the penalties for speaking out, those that are content are in the billions, those that arent are obviously very few




Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
isnt one of the biggest bitches about the US is that we're all up in
peoples shit, we're out their policing the world, not my business


Well as I said earlier, I think it should be an international effort, sort of like the war on terrorism.




this is why democrats have gotten us into more wars than republicans,
Korea, Viet Nam, Bosnia... our job is not to police the world, was that
not the catch phrase of the liberals through out the Bush Administration
yet here you are insisting we should police the world because a handful
of people were arrested in china on something you BELIEVE may be a human
rights issue but could in fact be no more than criminal activity


Quote:

I don't really know what your point is here, I never doubted that the Mid-East has been a violent shithole for centuries. :goatse:




my point is that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13045165 - 08/13/10 06:54 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

this is why democrats have gotten us into more wars than republicans,
Korea, Viet Nam, Bosnia... our job is not to police the world, was that
not the catch phrase of the liberals through out the Bush Administration
yet here you are insisting we should police the world because a handful
of people were arrested in china on something you BELIEVE may be a human
rights issue but could in fact be no more than criminal activity




And even it was absolutely a human rights issue, who cares?  Why should my children risk their lives fighting China because China was mean to some of their own citizens?


--------------------
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Seuss]
    #13045297 - 08/13/10 08:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

it's not like those that are unhappy cant leave, shit, they could move to
tibet, form an army and fight off those dirty chinese all by themselves
thus freeing tibet and themselves

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13045720 - 08/13/10 10:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

> it's not like those that are unhappy cant leave

The bleeding liberals would have me believe that unions are necessary because it is difficult to move to another city/state where jobs are available.  You really think they are going to buy the idea that those unhappy in China could move to another country?


--------------------
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13045787 - 08/13/10 11:02 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
People aren't outraged either because they don't care





so much for international outrage
'

a few thousand people out of 70 million, we can hardly equate that to Nazi Germany




Not quantitativly, but it didn't seem Poid did that.  The qualitative comparison is quite strong in my view.


My biggest question with this whole thing is why the Chinese government cares.  They obviously didn't at first, so what changed and why do they have such a big objection to this 'group' if you can even call it that.

All I can figure is they freak out when people identify themselves at all independently from the government or government-controlled groups, and that's a pretty unflattering suggestion (though hardly surprising).



Quote:

Poid said:

Quote:

GazzBut said:
How much do the Chinese worry you? Do you think we should invade them to protect the world?


I think all the world powers should come together and have a serious talk with them about their policies regarding human rights, and see where things go from there.





This struck me as funny and terribly naive. 

I'm curious how much you've looked into the PRC- everything I've learned about them, a minutia, leads me to believe this would only strengthen their resolve.  It strikes me as absurd to think this could ever happen in the first place though, they've invaded entire regions without this.  Hell, they're perfectly fine with having no diplomatic relations with any country who won't parrot their One China policy, and they did so with many large countries for years.  This is a country that seems at times completely detached from reality.  If you want a laugh, read some of their domestic news reports on any big international incident- it will make you look at US media bias in a much kinder light.

The PRC is probably the scariest country out there right now just in terms of evil, craziness and real potential for mischief.  At least they now are loosing their grip on all information delivered to their citezins though, so there's now starting to be a real limit on their powers of propoganda.  And they are at least somewhat pragmatic.  North Korea on the other hand, wants all sorts of money but has done a decent job of convincing people they are crazy enough to do the things they threaten (well, at least those that are physically possible- half the crap they say violates the laws of physics...)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: johnm214]
    #13046784 - 08/13/10 03:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
People aren't outraged either because they don't care





so much for international outrage
'

a few thousand people out of 70 million, we can hardly equate that to Nazi Germany




Not quantitativly, but it didn't seem Poid did that.  The qualitative comparison is quite strong in my view.





but as I've been suggesting from the start, how do we know these pitiful
few have not committed real crimes that resulted in their incarceration,
can we expect the Falun Gong media to portray these 'victims' in an
honest light, if they're being arrested for being practitioners of Falun
Gong then why do the 70million other practitioners still walk free

is it so hard to believe that these 8000 were actually criminals?


welcome back john

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13049243 - 08/14/10 02:21 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
People aren't outraged either because they don't care





so much for international outrage
'

a few thousand people out of 70 million, we can hardly equate that to Nazi Germany




Not quantitativly, but it didn't seem Poid did that.  The qualitative comparison is quite strong in my view.





but as I've been suggesting from the start, how do we know these pitiful
few have not committed real crimes that resulted in their incarceration,
can we expect the Falun Gong media to portray these 'victims' in an
honest light, if they're being arrested for being practitioners of Falun
Gong then why do the 70million other practitioners still walk free

is it so hard to believe that these 8000 were actually criminals?


welcome back john






Thanks pris : )


I don't think it really matters whether they commited real crimes or not.  If they have, they can be prosecuted for them regardless of their membership in a naughty group, and the Chinese have long since convinced me that they are actually crazy enough to organize this elaborate regime of persecution solely to stop people from calling their calisthenic regimen a particular name.


The problem isn't people in jail in my view, its people in jail (and killed and organ harvesting victims) without benefit of a fair process convicting them of previously-declared crimes whose commision harmed someone.

Given there's no credible argument, in my view, that falun gong isn't being persecuted, then the identity of those victimized is of a secondary concern while the government still views the persecution as a legitimate state function.

Given that any solution has to come frm the government anyways, the identification of those wrongly persecuted for their membership shouldn't' be a difficult matter supposing the will to do so ever manifests

Edit:

rereading your post, i think I missed a point you were making which may be "how do we know these people identified as persecuted falun gong practitioners actually exist and were actually persecuted for membership in falun gong?" 

Its a good point to keep in mind that the falun gong groups are decidedly anti-PRC but again, I don't really care.  As far as I'm concerned there really isn't any reason to trust them per se.  The fact is that the Chinese openly admit to their persecution and sufficient independant evidence exists, in my view, to conclude a widespread persecution is indeed taking place with a common design of suppressing falun gong and its practitioners.  The UN reports and the chinese state media (with the perp walks and 'confessions' et cet) extablish this beyond any reasonable doubt, and the particulars don't really matter at this point so much since the PRC has no plans on stopping anytime soon and they're the only people who have any authority or ability to do a damn thing about it.

From an international standpoint, there's not much that could be done besides diplomacy, and there's bigger fish to fry on that level (not the least of which is their ownership of a large portion of the US economy and government through investments and debt purchases that can't be easily replaced).

Edited by johnm214 (08/14/10 04:43 AM)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13051132 - 08/14/10 03:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
bullshit, they know the penalties for speaking out...


Quote:

Poid said:
Human rights in the People's Republic of China - Wikipedia:
Quote:

Although the 1982 constitution guarantees freedom of speech, the Chinese government often uses the subversion of state power clause to imprison those who are critical of the government.






The Chinese government can use the subversion of state power to enforce anything it wants, and impose any punishment it wants.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...those that are content are in the billions, those that arent are obviously very few


And you know this, how? Even if it's true, how do you know that those billions of content people wouldn't be more contented if things changed?



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Well as I said earlier, I think it should be an international effort, sort of like the war on terrorism.




this is why democrats have gotten us into more wars than republicans,
Korea, Viet Nam, Bosnia... our job is not to police the world, was that
not the catch phrase of the liberals through out the Bush Administration
yet here you are insisting we should police the world because a handful
of people were arrested in china on something you BELIEVE may be a human
rights issue but could in fact be no more than criminal activity


Did you even read what I wrote?

Quote:

...I think it should be an international effort...



This means that I don't think only the US should be "policing the world".



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

I don't really know what your point is here, I never doubted that the Mid-East has been a violent shithole for centuries. :goatse:




my point is that you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about


Regarding what, exactly? What you were saying seemed like pure irrelevant nonsense, I don't even know why you mentioned it, or how it shows that I don't know what I'm talking about.



Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

It's fucking retarded that you think the only reason we shouldn't go to war with China is that it could end all life on Earth.



maybe not the only one, but sure as hell is a good fucking one, let's destroy life on earth so the world can clearly see china is evil yay.


It's fucking retarded that you think the likelihood of China destroying the Earth is high.



Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

The satisfaction of some "moral crusade" has nothing to do with why I think the international community should impose sanctions on China if they don't change some of their totalitarian policies, I'm worried about some of the things the Chinese government does to its citizens, and am also worried that it might in the future use its size & power as an advantage to terrorize other nations.

Going to war with them would be putting billions of lives at risk, but not doing anything could also put just as many if not more lives at risk.




are you fucking kidding me, going at war at them would kill less people than not going at war with them, this is the most screwed logic i've ever seen.


Duh, if China attempts to conquer the world, then standing by idly would most likely put more people at risk than battling them; also, I never said that going to war with them will kill less people, I said that it could put less lives at risk.



Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

Not necessarily, not if we combat them effectively--of course, collateral damage in wars is inevitable, but it can always be reduced by taking some precautionary measures.



Vietnam war:
South Vietnamese civilian dead: 1,581,000*[7]
Cambodian civilian dead: 700,000–1,000,000*
North Vietnamese civilian dead: ~2,000,000[12]
Laotian civilian dead: ~50,000*
Total civilian dead: ~4,331,000


The Vietcong used guerilla warfare tactics, just like Mid-Easterners:

http://www.pbs.org/battlefieldvietnam/guerrilla/index.html
Quote:

Main force Vietcong units were uniformed, full-time soldiers, and were used to launch large scale offensives over a wide area. Regional forces were also full-time, but operated only within their own districts. When necessary, small regional units would unite for large scale attacks. If enemy pressure became too great, they would break down into smaller units and scatter.
Unlike the main troops, who saw themselves as professional soldiers, local Vietcong groups tended to be far less confident. For the most part, recruits were young teenagers, and while many were motivated by idealism, others had been pressured or shamed into joining. They also harbored real doubts about their ability to fight heavily armed and well-trained American soldiers.

Initially, local guerrillas were given only a basic minimum of infantry training, but if they were recruited to a main force unit, they could receive up to a month of advanced instruction.






Quote:

communeart said:
haha no suicide bombing, disprove your bullshit.


Not even close. :nut:



Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

You call that a moral crusade? What fucking war, then, would you consider to not be a moral crusade?



what would you consider a moral crusade in the first place? all wars are economical, drop the shining knight in armor bullshit, attack burma if you want to pretend challenging human rights.


It's about protecting the world from a power that has the potential to conquer the Earth, about keeping such a power in check before it becomes unstoppable, not only about human rights in China. 



Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

I don't really know what your point is here, I never doubted that the Mid-East has been a violent shithole for centuries.



obviously a racist dumbass too...


:banbanban:



Quote:

communeart said:
suicide bombing has been everywhere for centuries...


I know this, who the fuck is talking about suicide bombing, and what the fuck makes you think that I'm racist? :braindamage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (08/14/10 03:20 PM)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13051224 - 08/14/10 03:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
The Chinese government can use the subversion of state power to enforce anything it wants, and impose any punishment it wants.




yes, as can any other government in the world but it still doesnt
address the fact that our source of information is unreliable based in
the numbers, once more time, there's 70million falun gong practitioners
in china, there's about 8000 in prison, we do not know what they were
charged with nor do we know any other details other than what the falun
gong media sources are stating



Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...those that are content are in the billions, those that arent are obviously very few


And you know this, how? Even if it's true, how do you know that those billions of content people wouldn't be more contented if things changed?




well, they're still in china

Quote:

Quote:

Did you even read what I wrote?




...I think it should be an international effort...
This means that I don't think only the US should be "policing the world".




except that Iraq and Afghanistan are international efforts yet once
again it's "the US policing the world", we supply half the budget and
half the troops for the UN for those international efforts meaning we
police the world and have a few observers from the international community

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13051249 - 08/14/10 03:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
The Chinese government can use the subversion of state power to enforce anything it wants, and impose any punishment it wants.




yes, as can any other government in the world but it still doesnt
address the fact that our source of information is unreliable based in
the numbers, once more time, there's 70million falun gong practitioners
in china, there's about 8000 in prison, we do not know what they were
charged with
nor do we know any other details other than what the falun
gong media sources are stating


They were charged with practicing Falun Gong, it's illegal in China.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
well, they're still in china


So? It's in their best interest to be in China, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't prefer things to be different.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Quote:

Did you even read what I wrote?




...I think it should be an international effort...
This means that I don't think only the US should be "policing the world".




except that Iraq and Afghanistan are international efforts yet once
again it's "the US policing the world", we supply half the budget and
half the troops for the UN for those international efforts meaning we
police the world and have a few observers from the international community


That doesn't mean that the world can't come together and supply an equal amount of resources for the cause of keeping China in check. ✓


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13051610 - 08/14/10 05:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
The Chinese government can use the subversion of state power to enforce anything it wants, and impose any punishment it wants.




yes, as can any other government in the world but it still doesnt
address the fact that our source of information is unreliable based in
the numbers, once more time, there's 70million falun gong practitioners
in china, there's about 8000 in prison, we do not know what they were
charged with
nor do we know any other details other than what the falun
gong media sources are stating


They were charged with practicing Falun Gong, it's illegal in China.




from what source did you pull these charges

Quote:



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
well, they're still in china


So? It's in their best interest to be in China, but this doesn't necessarily mean that they wouldn't prefer things to be different.




and they've still not made things 'different'



Quote:

That doesn't mean that the world can't come together and supply an equal amount of resources for the cause of keeping China in check. ✓




it doesnt work that way, what kind of resources will rwanda put in, oh
wait, they have their own troubles, I wonder what Iran will do to help
correct injustices in china

china isnt our business until they're stepping on our tows

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13051633 - 08/14/10 05:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
from what source did you pull these charges


Are you denying that Falun Gong is illegal, or that people have been arrested for practicing it in China? All of the sources that I provided earlier stated that the practicing of Falun Gong is illegal in China...



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
and they've still not made things 'different'


Because attempting to do so may not be worth it; again, this doesn't mean that a lot of people there don't want change.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

That doesn't mean that the world can't come together and supply an equal amount of resources for the cause of keeping China in check. ✓




it doesnt work that way, what kind of resources will rwanda put in, oh
wait, they have their own troubles, I wonder what Iran will do to help
correct injustices in china

china isnt our business until they're stepping on our tows


What if, by the time they stepped on our toes, they've become too powerful a force to defeat?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13051653 - 08/14/10 05:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
from what source did you pull these charges


Are you denying that Falun Gong is illegal, or that people have been arrested for practicing it in China? All of the sources that I provided earlier stated that the practicing of Falun Gong is illegal in China...





I'm asking for the source of the charges against these members of falun
gong, I know it's illegal but when only 8000 out of 70 million are
arrested you have to ask yourself "what made these few different"


Quote:

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
and they've still not made things 'different'


Because attempting to do so may not be worth it; again, this doesn't mean that a lot of people there don't want change.






well it's apparent that they dont want change, they must be content


Quote:

What if, by the time they stepped on our toes, they've become too powerful a force to defeat?




there's no such thing, they already have 20x the military man power that
we do in the US, do you believe we'd be in a conventional way with china?

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13051683 - 08/14/10 05:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm asking for the source of the charges against these members of falun
gong, I know it's illegal but when only 8000 out of 70 million are
arrested you have to ask yourself "what made these few different"


They apparently failed to hide the fact that they practice Falun Gong from the Chinese government, it's unrealistic to believe that they can seek out millions of Falun Gong practitioners who hide the fact that they practice it for their lives.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
well it's apparent that they dont want change, they must be content


It's not apparent that they don't want change, the only thing that's apparent is they don't want to go through the necessary steps to make changes happen, and just because they don't want to go through the necessary steps doesn't mean that they don't want change.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
...do you believe we'd be in a conventional way with china?


I'm not sure what you mean. :undecided:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13051725 - 08/14/10 05:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
They apparently failed to hide the fact that they practice Falun Gong from the Chinese government, it's unrealistic to believe that they can seek out millions of Falun Gong practitioners who hide the fact that they practice it for their lives.




what were the charges and what was the source

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13051751 - 08/14/10 05:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Not sure why you keep asking me what the charges were, I already told you they were charged with practicing Falun Gong; do you mean to instead ask me what punishment(s) people have received for practicing it?


Quote:

Poid said:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/falun_gong/index.html
Quote:

Since it was outlawed, thousands of members have been detained and activists based outside China claim hundreds have died and been tortured while in custody.







--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13051757 - 08/14/10 05:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Why do you give an extra shit about religious lunatics who have resorted to terrorism as opposed to the daily mundane oppression of the Chinese horrorocracy??


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13051769 - 08/14/10 05:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't really, I'm just using Falun Gong as an example of how China is fucked up because I just learned about it, and I feel like it's something that isn't very well known but should be, so I'm doing my part to inform the masses. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13051780 - 08/14/10 06:02 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Not sure why you keep asking me what the charges were, I already told you they were charged with practicing Falun Gong; do you mean to instead ask me what punishment(s) people have received for practicing it?


Quote:

Poid said:
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/organizations/f/falun_gong/index.html
Quote:

Since it was outlawed, thousands of members have been detained and activists based outside China claim hundreds have died and been tortured while in custody.











this doesnt tell us what charges were laid only that thousands have been
'detained' and the practice has been outlawed, 'detained' could mean a
simple questioning and release... this is an emotion piece, nothing more

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13051792 - 08/14/10 06:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I don't really, I'm just using Falun Gong as an example of how China is fucked up because I just learned about it, and I feel like it's something that isn't very well known but should be, so I'm doing my part to inform the masses. :shrug:





the people of china need to deal with the problems in china

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13075097 - 08/19/10 05:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It's about protecting the world from a power that has the potential to conquer the Earth, about keeping such a power in check before it becomes unstoppable, not only about human rights in China. 




i don't see you caring about the united states.

also sorry for calling you a dumbass, i think i saw you saying something about muslims. oh you called the middle east a violent shithole, calling a region shithole is wrong, also, centuries is a big word , it has been violent and unstable since the ottomans lost ww1, and then was divided by the west to keep them fighting each other, divide and conquer as always.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13075355 - 08/19/10 06:36 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The Middle East has been a violent shithole for far longer than there even was a West to chop it up.


--------------------

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13075491 - 08/19/10 07:16 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Middle East has been a violent shithole for far longer than there even was a West to chop it up.



hwo hard is it for you not to say shithole. so what were the defining wars before 1918 or 1920? the ottoman empire was pretty brutal, i think your crazy for saying that the middle east was wosre in term of wars than europe  in the 1800s.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13078064 - 08/20/10 10:56 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

It's about protecting the world from a power that has the potential to conquer the Earth, about keeping such a power in check before it becomes unstoppable, not only about human rights in China. 




i don't see you caring about the united states.

also sorry for calling you a dumbass, i think i saw you saying something about muslims. oh you called the middle east a violent shithole, calling a region shithole is wrong, also, centuries is a big word , it has been violent and unstable since the ottomans lost ww1, and then was divided by the west to keep them fighting each other, divide and conquer as always.




Uh, what does the US have to do with this?


China is crazy (like a fox, but sometimes just crazy) and lives in fantasy make-believe land.  They have abillion plus people all recieving daily propoganda by state owned and state-controlled media, and have a huge army they've had no problem using in the past for stupid immoral actions.


The PRC is certainly worse from a moral standpoint that hte US, I would think, and certainly more of a danger to world stability.

That said, they're insatiable desire to do anything to grow their economy is probably the best reason to feel secure about them to a certain degree.  Its an example of international trade and economics leading to increased security.

Some of the isolationist hippies I know, and their counterparts in congress, are the same folks who bitch about any war or conflict as unnecessary and evil.  Strange that they resist what is likely the strongest force preventing conflicts among nations- trade and wealth.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13079050 - 08/20/10 02:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

It's about protecting the world from a power that has the potential to conquer the Earth, about keeping such a power in check before it becomes unstoppable, not only about human rights in China. 




i don't see you caring about the united states.


I care about the US.



Quote:

communeart said:
also sorry for calling you a dumbass, i think i saw you saying something about muslims. oh you called the middle east a violent shithole, calling a region shithole is wrong.


:rofl2:

I called the Mid-East a violent shithole, that's different than calling Islam a violent shithole; even if I did call Islam a violent shithole, it wouldn't be "wrong" because history has shown it to be true.



Quote:

communeart said:
also, centuries is a big word , it has been violent and unstable since the ottomans lost ww1, and then was divided by the west to keep them fighting each other, divide and conquer as always.


It's been a violent shithole since WAY before that. :arabs:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13080380 - 08/20/10 08:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Uh, what does the US have to do with this?



grrr, the people here are so blind, a good example is saudi arabia, it is supported by the united states and is never threatened , never ever. no sanction is ever made toward countries who are pro-usa. thus it is harder for the people inside to rise up against their corrupt government, and when there is such a war going on, people will say, oh a violent shithole.
Quote:

I called the Mid-East a violent shithole, that's different than calling Islam a violent shithole; even if I did call Islam a violent shithole, it wouldn't be "wrong" because history has shown it to be true.



i don't hink the people in the middle-east would like you to call their region a violent shithole, so please stop running around the pot and tell me about violent things going on before 1910 that is bigger in scale than anything going on in europe or america. for example in canada, look at this and find something similar, worse, etc. don't forget the napoleonic wars and everything, compare both regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_the_Parliament_Buildings_in_Montreal

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13080414 - 08/20/10 08:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
i don't hink the people in the middle-east would like you to call their region a violent shithole, so please stop running around the pot and tell me about violent things going on before 1910 that is bigger in scale than anything going on in europe or america. for example in canada, look at this and find something similar, worse, etc. don't forget the napoleonic wars and everything, compare both regions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_of_the_Parliament_Buildings_in_Montreal





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_the_Middle_East

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13080415 - 08/20/10 08:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

I called the Mid-East a violent shithole, that's different than calling Islam a violent shithole; even if I did call Islam a violent shithole, it wouldn't be "wrong" because history has shown it to be true.



i don't hink the people in the middle-east would like you to call their region a violent shithole...


I don't give a fuck.



Quote:

communeart said:
...so please stop running around the pot and tell me about violent things going on before 1910 that is bigger in scale than anything going on in europe or america. for example in canada, look at this and find something similar, worse, etc. don't forget the napoleonic wars and everything, compare both regions.


Take a moment to familiarize yourself with this article:
History of the Middle East - Wikipedia


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13080463 - 08/20/10 08:29 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13181320 - 09/11/10 06:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-09-10/world/japan.china.paper_1_japan-s-defense-ministry-chinese-nuclear-submarine-china-disputes?_s=PM:WORLD
Quote:

China's military puts the scare into Japan, and the U.S. is a key to keeping peace in the region, Japan's Defense Ministry said in a white paper Friday.

"The lack of transparency in [Chinese] national defense policies and the direction of military power are a concern for the region and the international community, including our country, and we need to carefully analyze it," the 488-page Defense of Japan 2010 report says, according to Japan's Kyodo news agency.

The annual report cites worrisome moves by China's military, including 10 Chinese submarines and destroyers being spotted west of Japan's Okinotori Island in April 2010 and a Chinese nuclear submarine entering Japanese waters in November 2004.

Japan and China are currently involved in a conflict over a Chinese trawler that collided with Japanese patrol ships Tuesday off the disputed Diaoyu Islands, in the East China Sea.

The Japanese coast guard arrested the trawler's captain, alleging that he obstructed public officers while they performed their duties.

"China will never accept the Japanese side's applying domestic law to the Chinese fishing boat operating in that area," said Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Jiang Yu, according to state-run media.

Japan's handling was "absurd, illegal and invalid," he said, reported the Xinhua news agency.

The Japanese defense white paper also focused on the role of the U.S. military in protecting Japan from possible attack. In that role, the U.S. military is best positioned on the Japanese island of Okinawa, the report indicated.

The location of the U.S. military in Okinawa has strained relations between the two allies, however. Many Okinawans want the base moved, in response to various crimes committed by military personnel against Japanese civilians.

The defense report also called North Korea's nuclear and missiles programs an "extremely destabilizing factor" in the region. The North's moves pose "grave dangers," the white paper said.

In May 2009, North Korea detonated a nuclear device. The international community condemned the test, and the U.N. Security Council stepped up economic sanctions against the North.

China remains North Korea's key ally and biggest trading partner, providing the starving nation with food, as well as weapons.





See, I'm not the only one who is concerned about China...:japsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13183503 - 09/12/10 08:30 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

it's off topic since it's about japan's concerns over chinese military
forces and 'transparency', speaking of, how transparent is the US military
policies when our goal seems to be to topple governments covertly and overtly

doesnt that make us just like china, or worse...

Quote:

Many Okinawans want the base moved, in response to various crimes committed by military personnel against Japanese civilians.




here's the human rights part of the story

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13185433 - 09/12/10 04:05 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
it's off topic since it's about japan's concerns over chinese military
forces and 'transparency', speaking of, how transparent is the US military
policies when our goal seems to be to topple governments covertly and overtly

doesnt that make us just like china, or worse...


How is that off-topic? The topic here is about how China is a potential threat to the world--Japan saying "The lack of transparency in [Chinese] national defense policies and the direction of military power are a concern for the region and the international community..." is evidence that points to that fact.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Many Okinawans want the base moved, in response to various crimes committed by military personnel against Japanese civilians.




here's the human rights part of the story


Haha. :cool2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13186111 - 09/12/10 06:01 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
The Middle East has been a violent shithole for far longer than there even was a West to chop it up.




wow that is something else. can't believe that would be true :facepalm3:


geez they've been in every major war, with the SLIGHTEST exception of world war 2. and it's only an exception because not EVERY country was invaded.


i mean face it the u.s. has the 4th of july and over there they have jihad 'boom!'

their culture is a little messed up. but hey, let's not get racist huh? i don't hate Islam i just don't like it.


oh well back to Chinese politics


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13186623 - 09/12/10 07:49 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
it's off topic since it's about japan's concerns over chinese military
forces and 'transparency', speaking of, how transparent is the US military
policies when our goal seems to be to topple governments covertly and overtly

doesnt that make us just like china, or worse...


How is that off-topic? The topic here is about how China is a potential threat to the world--Japan saying "The lack of transparency in [Chinese] national defense policies and the direction of military power are a concern for the region and the international community..." is evidence that points to that fact.




Japan could give two shit about Fallun Gong, that's how it's off topic,
they're over there trying to play the victim themselves and it has
nothing to do with religious beliefs, I can hear them now "the chinese
civilians attacked our navy, it hurts", "the chinese attacked our
whaling boats, now our people may have to settle for tuna", "the
americans dropped nukes on us and now we have 3 eyes" "the americans
are raping japanese schoolgirls and there's not a tentacle in sight"

always playing the victim just like Fallun Gong, they all need to man
the fuck up and start killing some people because for once, violence
really is the answer... ok, far more than once

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13189540 - 09/13/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
always playing the victim just like Fallun Gong, they all need to man
the fuck up and start killing some people because for once, violence
really is the answer... ok, far more than once


Well they want the international community to help them fight China because they can't do it alone. :mob:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13190198 - 09/13/10 04:19 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

they've taken manchuria before, what's stopping them from doing it again

they have ninjas and samurai

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13190204 - 09/13/10 04:20 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
they have ninjas and samurai


Those fuckers won't cut it, modern warfare has rendered them as useless as a torn bag of rice. :japsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13193154 - 09/14/10 08:17 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Well they want the international community to help them fight China because they can't do it alone.




Japan want to fight China? Behind the bike sheds after school?! I dont think Japan have any desire to "fight" China and vice versa.

Just admit your original premise doesnt really hold up to closer scurtiny!


--------------------
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13199776 - 09/15/10 02:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

falun gong is scientology, are you still willing to defend falun gong?

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: communeart]
    #13200940 - 09/15/10 07:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
I dont think Japan have any desire to "fight" China and vice versa.


I don't think you even read the article. :shrug:


Quote:

communeart said:
falun gong is scientology...


Lol, wut? :wutermelon:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13202721 - 09/16/10 04:15 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think you even read the article. :shrug:




Lol, Are you sure you did?

Nowhere does it state that Japan want to fight China, with or without the help of the international community.

They mention they would like protection in the event of an unlikely attack by China. They do not mention they want to round up the boys so they can all go and "fight" with China.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13209158 - 09/17/10 11:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
They do not mention they want to round up the boys so they can all go and "fight" with China.


And neither did I. :braindamage:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13212178 - 09/17/10 10:54 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Well they want the international community to help them fight China because they can't do it alone. :mob:



Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

GazzBut said:
They do not mention they want to round up the boys so they can all go and "fight" with China.


And neither did I. :braindamage:



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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13212186 - 09/17/10 10:56 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I forgot to add that they would want help to fight China if/when worse comes to worst, and that they feel that that could happen sometime soon.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: GazzBut]
    #13212851 - 09/18/10 04:37 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Well they want the international community to help them fight China because they can't do it alone.




Japan want to fight China? Behind the bike sheds after school?! I dont think Japan have any desire to "fight" China and vice versa.

Just admit your original premise doesnt really hold up to closer scurtiny!




Nobody has a desire to fight anyone, but if Japan doesn't feel like granting China a blank check it may come down to that.

PRC's been fucking with people in their corner of the world since the first day they existed, and there's no way they're letting up now.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13253430 - 09/27/10 11:59 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The sun goes to china, and thee stars come alive, and those paintings, what about the 1950's?

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13277773 - 10/01/10 11:26 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The US has 2.2 million people incarcerated, China has 4 times the population than the US and 1.5 million incarcerated...  The US is the pot calling the kettle black.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #13278870 - 10/02/10 09:08 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What makes you think anybody knows how many people are incarcerated in China and perhaps you would tell us all about their wonderfully draconian capital punishment record?
http://www.google.com/search?q=china+executes+drug&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13279819 - 10/02/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

That's a good point.  A lot of asian countries execute drug smugglers.  I still can no longer condone the US governments attack on our own personal freedom, that is why I don't think we should point the finger at China.  I been there several times too, and my opinion of them is about 180 degrees out of what the news media in the US would have you think.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: starfire_xes]
    #13279843 - 10/02/10 02:03 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Almost every fucking country in the world imprisons people for drugs.  Only a handful kill them.  You are sucking the dick of one of the few nations that kill people for it.  Spare me your false relativism.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13279928 - 10/02/10 02:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Almost every fucking country in the world imprisons people for drugs.  Only a handful kill them.  You are sucking the dick of one of the few nations that kill people for it.  Spare me your false relativism.





You mean like the US where armed swat teams are judge, jury, and executioner in many drug cases?  I am not condoning China's behavior in any case.  However, they are only at the forefront because of media attention.  I've been to a lot of shit-hole countries, and China wasn't one of them. 


--------------------

Edited by starfire_xes (10/02/10 02:30 PM)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: starfire_xes] * 1
    #13279948 - 10/02/10 02:33 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The amount of unjustified police shootings is miniscule and far more likely to stem from legal drug abuse or domestic violence than from a drug arrest of unarmed perps.  Did you know that drug use can contribute to violent, irrational behavior totally unrelated to the legal status of the drug involved?  True story.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13280145 - 10/02/10 03:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

+1


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13280548 - 10/02/10 05:10 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Once they get richer power will become more dispersed. It'll settle over time IMO, to start a war already would be very drastic.


--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards. 

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Grapefruit]
    #13284069 - 10/03/10 01:08 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Grapefruit said:
Once they get richer power will become more dispersed.


Once they get richer, they'll have more power to fuck people over with.


Quote:

Grapefruit said:
It'll settle over time IMO, to start a war already would be very drastic.


So at what time should we start a war? When it's already too late? :rolleyes:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Edited by Poid (04/14/12 12:56 AM)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13300832 - 10/06/10 08:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Well... I'm born and raise in Hong Kong the "beautiful", "democratic", "religion-friendly", "peaceful" reigme of China that every Westerners praise.
In HK, I'm not allow to go to kindergarten until I get my English Christian name. I'm indirectly being force to go to Christian/Catholic schools. I'm forced to pray three times a day at school. One before class start, one before lunch , last just before leaving for home. Otherwise no food for me.
I'm being force to speak English in a Cantonese speaking region. All high school exams/txtbks are written in English. I'm being force to take IQ exam and almost being send to special ed school for not learning /speak English during 1st grade.

That is what happen if you let monotheist religion come in... It became a church state in just 100 yrs of time.

Both side of my family are minority race return to China near/during the cultural revolution. Part of my family was very poor and were actual farmers dig with shovel. They used to eat only rice mix with salt. The CCP gave them food ticket and free education. My grandpa was given the training to fix German automobile. My grandmother was immigrate from Indonesia, she was given the opportunity to major in Russian in Russia. This is NOT the charity I EVER seen in the U.S. My family never being called name such as "Anchor babies"... The second generation live a peaceful and successful live. One of  my cousin that I don't talk much to now owns a wine business at the age of 28. He had to 2 young healthy sons.

Due to out of state interest, Christians being much wealthier than pagans and reserve all the opportunity to other Christians.

All my little cousins still speak our ethnic languages. They didn't introduce to Mandarin until the later age. I'm lived in the regime under Western authority. My heritage was being stripe from.I'm forced to live in a Christian lifestyle at early age.
And there you are accuse other of racism, oppressive... My ancestor had NEVER being enslave nor terminated nor forced-assimilate as AMERICANS HAD DONE AND DOING.

Americans criticism is not about human right. These are acts against non-Christianize, non-Westernize, non-White-Worship", and pagans. China is the last civilization believe that human being are created by women. Fulan Gong are a bunch of Christianize Buddhist who are anti-pagan.

Americans accusation is not about peace nor equality. These are some political masturbation that does nothing but amuse itself. Just like your colonists' grandpa, you use beautiful name to mask your own perversion.

If Christianity infiltrate China, people will arm and raise against them.
If Christianity gain power in China, I would ask any nations to nuke it down to ash. A Christianize-China is one of the most unsightful in human history. It is the death of pagan culture. It has no meaning to hang around as a zombie.


--------------------
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LC89]
    #13301489 - 10/06/10 10:29 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I think the pagans are all moving west

there are islands of esoteric mystics out here

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: wellage]
    #13301896 - 10/07/10 12:10 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Asian are new and not immune to these diseases. Sp most people are infected by it.
<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="
fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="
fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="
fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="
fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


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Offlinespirodj
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13309614 - 10/08/10 05:07 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
I care about the US.





  Sorry but I think  you missed there one very important word.
  "I care ONLY about the US-A."
  Nuke them well.
  What did P. Stamets said. And fungi ruled the world once again..      Maybe its time for 3rd reset.

Edited by spirodj (10/08/10 05:11 PM)

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: spirodj]
    #13322526 - 10/11/10 07:22 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

China is a heartless government. The whole reason it's the fastest growing economy in the world. Complete lack of compassion.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Darwin23]
    #13324424 - 10/12/10 05:55 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I never knew about this until just now. It is very shocking to me that something like this has been going on. It is fucking disgusting what some human beings can do to other human beings. I'm starting to question if these people in power are even human.


--------------------
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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: spirodj]
    #13358321 - 10/19/10 04:51 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

spirodj said:
Quote:

Poid said:
I care about the US.





  Sorry but I think  you missed there one very important word.
  "I care ONLY about the US-A."


I didn't miss jack shit, stop putting words in my mouth. :finger:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Darwin23]
    #13383269 - 10/25/10 12:25 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Darwin23 said:
China is a heartless government. The whole reason it's the fastest growing economy in the world. Complete lack of compassion.




Calling and getting a ambulance in China are free due the tax dollars coming from billion/millionaires of China. Compare to the U.S where people paid more than $800 per ride during the live or dead situation, people need to paid extra the mileage and service received. Who is more heartless for asking money during the time care is needed the most. If it makes you feel better of all the ongoing genocides America orchestrating across the globe, I would let you have it.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LC89]
    #13383313 - 10/25/10 12:42 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Hi!  Welcome to the forum, I've not seen you post here before.  Welcome :smile2:

I find some of the points you've made troublesome, however, and I would appreciate your response:


Quote:

LC89 said:
Quote:

Darwin23 said:
China is a heartless government. The whole reason it's the fastest growing economy in the world. Complete lack of compassion.




Calling and getting a ambulance in China are free due the tax dollars coming from billion/millionaires of China. Compare to the U.S where people paid more than $800 per ride during the live or dead situation,




Please explain why you compare the chinese ambulance service to the US ambulance service. 

Are you alleging the level of service provided by each is comparable so that the cost to the consumer is directly comparable?  As you've directly contrasted the asserted costs of this service in both countries, I'm presuming you allege such a direct comparison is meritous, so I would be interested to hear why you think the service is comparable or how you reconcile the disparity and its effect on your comparison.

Quote:

Compare to the U.S where people paid more than $800 per ride during the live or dead situation




Please provide support for your claim that people are paid 800$ per ride in an ambulance.  I don't recall this being even remotely congruent with the figures I'm aware of.  The only time this may be true in the US is in circumstances where I very much doubt China would provide such service and imagine it would be difficult if not impossible to obtain at all in an appropriate timeframe.


Quote:

Who is more heartless for asking money during the time care is needed the most.




Please back up your assertion that the United States asks for money during the time when patients need care.  In fact, I don't believe the United States asks for money for medical services at all (well, not unless Obama's wet dream becomes reality), baring unique situations more akin to private transactions- military bases, veteren's admin.

Further, even if your argument is construed to refer to the dissimilar private service in the US, I would challenge you to provide evidence money is needed and asked for during the time care is needed most.  The only time such would be remotely true is when care actually isn't needed most, and the patient would be using the ambulance as a taxi rather than a medical service.

Quote:

If it makes you feel better of all the ongoing genocides America orchestrating across the globe, I would let you have it.




What genocide(s) is America orchestrating across the globe?  I'm not aware of any.

Further, I imagine you're not so bold as to be alleging America is condemnable relative to China on the human right's front or even when examining supposed genocides.

China was founded on genocide, lol.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: johnm214]
    #13383326 - 10/25/10 12:48 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:


Further, I imagine you're not so bold as to be alleging America is condemnable relative to China on the human right's front or even when examining supposed genocides.



:thumbup: China's widespread, systematic human rights abuses eclipse the US by a long shot.
Quote:

China was founded on genocide, lol.



So was America.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Virus_with_Shoes]
    #13383369 - 10/25/10 01:08 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Virus_with_Shoes said:
Quote:


Further, I imagine you're not so bold as to be alleging America is condemnable relative to China on the human right's front or even when examining supposed genocides.



:thumbup: China's widespread, systematic human rights abuses eclipse the US by a long shot.




Agreed.  And at least in the US you have a real shot at holding the government to what the law allows- in China you can't even depend on the government to follow its own rules.

Quote:

Quote:

China was founded on genocide, lol.



So was America.




Hm, I don't know.

I assume your referring to the Indians here, yes?  Thats the only reason I didn't challenge the poster to find any genocide the US did.  I can't think of any other example.


But is it fair to say the US was founded on genocide?  The states were largely without signifigant Indian problems at the time the country was formed, and while I may be wrong, I thought the country itself wasn't actively involved in clearing out the Indians and pushing westward until a bit later.  My understanding was that in the first years it was mostly private interests that undertook these measures, but I admit not knowing a whole lot about the history here, and its somewhat moot as the US is far from blameless and engaged in genocidal acts by most any definition.


What I meant when referring to China being actually formed on genocide is that the genocide itself was actually an end unto itself upon the forming of the PRC.  Rather than simply seeking land or wealth and encountering resistance and whatnot, the Chinese Communists actually regarded the liquidation of the various classes as a central goal of the government.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: johnm214]
    #13383445 - 10/25/10 01:42 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Where I got the idea of paying for ambulance...? I got hit by a car during senior year of high school. The firefighter ask me do I wanna go to hospital to check it out. I ask him how much is it that where I got the prices from. I believe it a legit source and first hand experience.

Why it couldn't be comparable?? You have to pay for the ride to hospital vs no payment need for a ride to hospital. I hope it not that hard to compare right? During the Cultural Revolution government provide to-your-door medical care for every civilians. America is a nation that rich people asking for tax breaking but keep asking for government financial assistant.

American genocide: Those responsible for 9/11 are from Afghanistan ( a common sense), we went all the way to Iraq to drop bombs all over them for allegedly possession of Weapons of Mass destruction and organize a coalition consist at least more than 20 nations. Whoever come up with this idea is obvious posse.

I hope this map will enlighten you.
Map

China found on genocide??? Well, my grandparent immigrated to China during the Cultural Revolution from Southeast Asia. As a poor minority, my grandmother received an opportunity for studying Russian in the USSR for 4 years. My grandfather was trained as a auto technician to fix German vehicles. Child care also provided during the working hours for free. My uncle from a poor farm who farm with a actual shovel became a register lawyer. I don't get where is the genocide.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LC89]
    #13383704 - 10/25/10 03:47 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I have challenged several specific claims you've made.  You've responded to a few of them but provided no evidence for any except a few antecdotes about getting hit by a car and your relatives experience.

Please back up those claims you've made.


Quote:

LC89 said:
Where I got the idea of paying for ambulance...? I got hit by a car during senior year of high school. The firefighter ask me do I wanna go to hospital to check it out. I ask him how much is it that where I got the prices from. I believe it a legit source and first hand experience.

Why it couldn't be comparable?? You have to pay for the ride to hospital vs no payment need for a ride to hospital. I hope it not that hard to compare right?




This is a bare assertion fallacy.  I asked for the evidence and your thoughts regarding the comparison and you've simply repeated the assertion, which does not establish its veracity.

I doubt the chinese government will pay for an ambulance to come pick you up and I doubt you have a right to such transport indpendant of your ability to pay- which you do have in the US.

Further, I doubt the chinese government provides ambulance services at all similar to the US model- when no direct reimbursment is provided for services from the recipient, as alleged here, there is little motivation to provide the level of service provided in, i.e., the US.  I have no burden to disprove your claims or the merits of your comparison, but a cursory search reveals my intuition is correct.  Stories of pitiful ambulance service abound and it appears the first dedicated air ambulance service was just established a few years ago.  Do we really have to wonder why the US has had many such services for a very long time now and China is just getting around to it (through capitalist means which would have been illegal in the past).

RE: your experience, I doubt you were denied transport to the hospital on the basis of your economic situation if your injury was at all serious- it would be illegal to do so in the US (again, I doubt this is so in the PRC).  If you declined to pay, that's fine, but its certainly no fault of another, and if you didn't need transport anyways, better you didn't use up that resource.

Quote:



American genocide: Those responsible for 9/11 are from Afghanistan ( a common sense), we went all the way to Iraq to drop bombs all over them for allegedly possession of Weapons of Mass destruction and organize a coalition consist at least more than 20 nations. Whoever come up with this idea is obvious posse.




9/11 and Iraq were not directly related nor represented to be so explicitly by the US government.  They were invaded for failure to abide by the treaty they signed and the UN resolutions- these violations are not denied by anyone.

The fact that WMD's were alleged was the motivation to take such a severe step and possibly to provide legal justification/cover for the invasion (I'm unsure of whether the UN res. and treaties made the invasion legal) and the reason why the administration didn't want to wait for further inspections which had recently became available. 

None of this establishes genocide.

You've not even alleged purposeful killing, which is a requirement for any definition of genocide, and this is pretty much the end of your argument unless you do so and show evidence.

The US government has taken easily-confirmed measures to limit casualties, and no examples of purposeful killings in violation of law/customs of war exists that I'm aware of other than isolated incidents where the actors were violating US Gov't orders.  To claim this is anything close to genocide is ludicrous.


Quote:

China found on genocide??? Well, my grandparent immigrated to China during the Cultural Revolution from Southeast Asia. As a poor minority, my grandmother received an opportunity for studying Russian in the USSR for 4 years. My grandfather was trained as a auto technician to fix German vehicles. Child care also provided during the working hours for free. My uncle from a poor farm who farm with a actual shovel became a register lawyer. I don't get where is the genocide.




The genocide remark was made on the basis of the extermination of various classes of people delineated by social status, ethnicity, creed, and association to various groups.  These measures were not incidental but proudly claimed to be examples of progress (the famous remark about burying all the professors/intellectuals, for example).

After the various cooperative and industrialization measures were shown to be ill-conceived, very early on, even a fool could have seen that maintaining the course would lead to a great number of deaths and much suffering, and yet the course was stayed.  Even if you consider the programs simply foolhardy but not malicious, it became clear very early on that they didn't work.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LC89]
    #13383820 - 10/25/10 04:47 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

> in China are free due the tax dollars coming from billion/millionaires of China.

Don't forget to thank those billion peasants that made the billion/millionaires of China possible.  Oh, and how is that ambulance service out in those rural areas that the peasants live?  If they call (do they even have phones), does the ambulance show up in just a few minutes for them as well?


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Seuss]
    #13385203 - 10/25/10 01:47 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

God damn I fucking hate the Chinese government so much. :nonono:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LC89]
    #13385240 - 10/25/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

LC89 said:
Quote:

Darwin23 said:
China is a heartless government. The whole reason it's the fastest growing economy in the world. Complete lack of compassion.










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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Seuss]
    #13427183 - 11/03/10 02:38 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I never claim they show up in minute. And yes there is something called barefoot doctor who go to door to door for minority race which my grandparent are receive this form of care. Care are provide by barefoot doctor to minority race from the government, 1-child-policy are exempt from minority as well.

I never claim I had been REFUSE for emergency services. I said people like me will refuse to get the help we need because we are not afford for it. Any non-American know how f*ck up the health care system of America is since I live in a much better society. Why Americans are so obese?? Well it obvious Americans can't afford it so they stop pursuing.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LC89]
    #13430058 - 11/03/10 05:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I'd take USA's government over that of China's any day. China is the reason why there is no more Tibet.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Scrappy]
    #13435489 - 11/04/10 06:56 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

China's going to take over the world. You heard it from me first. :japsmile:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13435508 - 11/04/10 06:59 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No.  Dipshits have been saying that for several decades.  Other dipshits said Japan would.  But that was so yesterday.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13435524 - 11/04/10 07:02 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Yesterday, China didn't have the money that it does today:

http://http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/china/
Quote:

China's economy is huge and expanding rapidly. In the last 30 years the rate of Chinese economic growth has been almost miraculous, averaging 8% growth in Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per annum. The economy has grown more than 10 times during that period, with Chinese GDP reaching 3.42 trillion US dollars by 2007.




--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13435607 - 11/04/10 07:19 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Funny how they still count it in US Dollars.


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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: LC89]
    #13436216 - 11/04/10 09:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LC89 said:
I never claim they show up in minute.




Straw man, nobody said you did.

The fact is that there is ample reason to doubt the comparison made between the two countrys' services are at all illuminating as to the comparitive costs.  Simply put, the services are extraordinarily different and to compare the free care recieved in China to the paid care recieved in the US is ridiculous.

Quote:

And yes there is something called barefoot doctor who go to door to door for minority race which my grandparent are receive this form of care.




Sure, China's been using racist and discriminatory policies since its founding.  I can fully believe they ration healthcare as a function of ethnicity.  The relevance of this as to the topic being discussed is not clear, however.  As the US provides on-demand transport for medical treatment and regardless of ability to pay for potentially serious or serious conditions, the roaming doctor doesn't seem a unique benefit to the Chinese system.
Quote:


Care are provide by barefoot doctor to minority race from the government, 1-child-policy are exempt from minority as well.




How nice of them to decide whether to kill your fetus or punish you on the basis of your ethnicity.  Nice folks those chinese communist party members.

Quote:

I never claim I had been REFUSE for emergency services. I said people like me will refuse to get the help we need because we are not afford for it.




Ok... would it make you feel better if the transport wasn't available at all?  I don't understand your complaint here.  You had care and transport available from a professionaly trained and well equiped ambulatory treatment center who would have transported you to a modern well-staffed medical center and your complaining that you voluntarily decided not to pay for all these facilities?  What is the problem?  Those folks don't work for free and the facilities aren't free either.  When it becomes available at no direct cost to the recipient, as in certain situations in PRC, I guarentee the staff and facilities will degrade.



Quote:

Any non-American know how f*ck up the health care system of America is since I live in a much better society.




Ok, a non-americann would be better able to judge the merits of America's healthcare system.  I don't get it, but I'll take your word for that. 

I don't really care to defend the society of either country- it is what it is.  The government however... Well, the US isn't selling the organs of its citezins' who hold particular opinions... so that sorta tips the scale towards the US being a tad bit better I'd say


Quote:

Why Americans are so obese?? Well it obvious Americans can't afford it so they stop pursuing.




Who cares?  I happen to think they're obese cause they can afford to be, but what does it matter?  Maybe if we had the foresight to institute a "great leap forward" we'd not have this pesky nourishment issue, you think?

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: zappaisgod]
    #13460359 - 11/09/10 07:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Funny how they still count it in US Dollars.


How do you know the value wasn't simply converted from Chinese currency to American currency?


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13462839 - 11/10/10 07:42 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

over your head poid

see such things as reserve currency and bretton woods

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Noetical]
    #13466470 - 11/10/10 11:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Noetical]
    #13487984 - 11/15/10 02:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Noetical said:
over your head poid


No, but the Chinese government is. :grin:


Quote:

Noetical said:
see such things as reserve currency and bretton woods


Will do, someday. :thumbup:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: I'm really getting sick & fucking tired of the Chinese government... [Re: Poid]
    #13488012 - 11/15/10 02:38 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
How


Quote:

Poid said:can




Quote:

China


o yea do u have a source?

have the
Quote:

nerve


to persecute the peaceful practitioners of Falun Gong, and think that the international community is not going to give a shit?




Quote:

Poid said:
it's really simple poid, the chinese communist party outlawed the practice...


That in itself is fucking bullshit, it is a peacful practice centered around living in harmony with others and avoiding negative emotions. This kind of shit (persecuting people for engaging in peaceful religious practices) is unacceptable in the modern world IMO.






Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
they break the law and they get prosecuted. seems that the international
community could give two shits about the 70 million falun gong
practitioner.


It's persecution that's going on, no different than how Jews were persecuted in Nazi Germany.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not seeing any headlines on CNN, the BBC, the NY Times or
anywhere really about their outrage


What's your point, this only means that those news outlets don't give a shit, it says nothing about how serious of an issue this is.

Is the Epoch Times a reputable enough news source for you?
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/39752/
Quote:

WASHINGTON—Passersby were mesmerized by the glowing lights on Thursday night, as hundreds of people gathered at the base of the Washington Monument in the nation's capital for a candlelight vigil to commemorate 11 years since the beginning of the persecution of the Falun Gong spiritual practice in China.

Falun Gong (also known as Falun Dafa) practitioners silently held glowing candles in small cups, which created a lantern-like effect. The event attracted many passersby, who stopped to learn about the persecution.

In contrast to the harsh treatment of their brethren in China, practitioners in Washington meditated in peace, while vocal, instrumental, and choral music played in the background.

“This full-scale war rushed into our lives, [but] the only weapons we’ve wielded have been truth and beauty. And after 11 years, it is clear that our hearts can overcome any device of men, because the weapons of the Chinese Communist Party can only kill people, but our weapons, our hearts can save people,” said Jared Pearman, one of the MCs of the event.

According to the Falun Dafa Information Center (FDIC), the persecution of Falun Gong began on July 20, 1999, at the orders of Jiang Zemin, the former head of the Chinese Communist Party, commencing with a propaganda campaign to vilify the practice. Falun Gong adherents were illegally detained and placed into forced labor camps, where they suffered inhumane forms of torture, including being shocked with electric batons, burned with scalding irons, and force-fed.

Falun Gong practitioners in China continue to suffer intimidation, imprisonment, torture, and death. The 2010 FDIC annual report documented that 109 adherents of the practice died as a result of torture and abuse in 2009, and over 2,000 more were arbitrarily sentenced to forced labor or prison. Over half of the detainees in the Chinese forced labor camps are Falun Gong practitioners.
Quote:


According to Clearwisdom.net, a website that documents the persecution with firsthand accounts from China, more than 3,000 deaths of Falun Gong practitioners have been confirmed. The actual number is believed to be much higher.




“The courage of the Chinese people grows with each day, and tens of millions of people have now spoken out with calls for freedom and justice, as they renounce their affiliations with the Chinese Communist Party and come to support human rights,” Pearman said.








lolz


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
we dont hear about the trials or charges, we hear a few sympathetic
human rights sources telling us what they want so how do we know it's
accurate, it's not as if Amnesty International has never tried to
mislead us before


Read the article--why would you expect these people to lie? Just like Tibetans, they want to be free to practice a peaceful religion, it's not like they're asking for money or anything.







:seriousbusiness:
Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

Poid said:
How


Quote:

Poid said:can




Quote:

China


o yea do u have a source?

have the
Quote:

nerve


to persecute the peaceful practitioners of Falun Gong, and think that the international community is not going to give a shit?




Quote:

Poid said:
it's really simple poid, the chinese communist party outlawed the practice...


That in itself is fucking bullshit, it is a peacful practice centered around living in harmony with others and avoiding negative emotions. This kind of shit (persecuting people for engaging in peaceful religious practices) is unacceptable in the modern world IMO.






Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
they break the law and they get prosecuted. seems that the international
community could give two shits about the 70 million falun gong
practitioner.


It's persecution that's going on, no different than how Jews were persecuted in Nazi Germany.



Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
I'm not seeing any headlines on CNN, the BBC, the NY Times or
anywhere really about their outrage


What's your point, this only means that those news outlets don't give a shit, it says nothing about how serious of an issue this is.

Is the Epoch Times a reputable enough news source for you?
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/39752/
Quote:

WASHINGTON—Passersby were mesmerized by the glowing lights on Thursday night, as hundreds of people gathered at the base of the Washington Monument in the nation's capital for a candlelight vigil to commemorate 11 years since the beginning of the persecution of the Falun Gong spiritual practice in China.

Falun Gong (also known as Falun Dafa) practitioners silently held glowing candles in small cups, which created a lantern-like effect. The event attracted many passersby, who stopped to learn about the persecution.

In contrast to the harsh treatment of their brethren in China, practitioners in Washington meditated in peace, while vocal, instrumental, and choral music played in the background.

“This full-scale war rushed into our lives, [but] the only weapons we’ve wielded have been truth and beauty. And after 11 years, it is clear that our hearts can overcome any device of men, because the weapons of the Chinese Communist Party can only kill people, but our weapons, our hearts can save people,” said Jared Pearman, one of the MCs of the event.

According to the Falun Dafa Information Center (FDIC), the persecution of Falun Gong began on July 20, 1999, at the orders of Jiang Zemin, the former head of the Chinese Communist Party, commencing with a propaganda campaign to vilify the practice. Falun Gong adherents were illegally detained and placed into forced labor camps, where they suffered inhumane forms of torture, including being shocked with electric batons, burned with scalding irons, and force-fed.

Falun Gong practitioners in China continue to suffer intimidation, imprisonment, torture, and death. The 2010 FDIC annual report documented that 109 adherents of the practice died as a result of torture and abuse in 2009, and over 2,000 more were arbitrarily sentenced to forced labor or prison. Over half of the detainees in the Chinese forced labor camps are Falun Gong practitioners.
Quote:


According to Clearwisdom.net, a website that documents the persecution with firsthand accounts from China, more than 3,000 deaths of Falun Gong practitioners have been confirmed. The actual number is believed to be much higher.




“The courage of the Chinese people grows with each day, and tens of millions of people have now spoken out with calls for freedom and justice, as they renounce their affiliations with the Chinese Communist Party and come to support human rights,” Pearman said.








lolz


Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
we dont hear about the trials or charges, we hear a few sympathetic
human rights sources telling us what they want so how do we know it's
accurate, it's not as if Amnesty International has never tried to
mislead us before


Read the article--why would you expect these people to lie? Just like Tibetans, they want to be free to practice a peaceful religion, it's not like they're asking for money or anything.







:seriousbusiness:


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