|
 Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH 
|
 free will is an illusion 
#12986454 - 08/01/10 06:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is pre determined based on previous actions. even this moment right now.
in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
for example, let us say that you have "chosen" to open this thread and read what i have just written. you entered the thread because you read the title because you entered this forum, because you entered the shroomery message board because you entered the main website, because you opened your internet provider, because you turned on your computer, etc.
you can trace every action you've ever performed to an action preceding it, all the way back to when your parents fornicated when the egg in your mother and the single sperm from your father were the genetic make up of you, this happened because it happened on that specific moment, and we can trace all of their action's causes back to when they were created by their parents, and so on.
we can use this concept of actions caused by preceding actions to trace every single action that has ever happened in the universe back to the creation of our universe, and indeed every universe. yes i am proposing that there are multiple universes, ours being governed by three dimensions. in other universes, with other dimensions, these dimensions are not used, but can be accessed, likewise in our universe.
equally, we can trace every organism on earth back to one common ancestor. now let us assume that in each universe there exists some form of life. what is the purpose of life? this question can be answered by using the principles of evolution and survival instincts. every organism in our universe started from one single organism, evolving into more and more organisms in an attempt to be the dominate "species" in the universe. why? because the goal of life is to become advanced enough to, at the end of the universe, travel through time, to create the beginning of all the universes. likewise this is the goal of all organisms in all universes. however, under predetermination, the organism that is to become the most advanced of all is already set. imagine each universe is a different version of each other, all developing at different rates, under different conditions. only one universe will contain the most advanced organism of all the universes. the other are equivalent to under evolved species. likewise with in all the universes, all but the one organism that is predetermined to "win the race" are under evolved.
at the end of the universe, when matter is sent through time, but not space, to before the universe has started, this is the cause of the universe. this would mean that when this event happens, every event that has ever happened will repeat in the exact same manor. indeed this event has happened an infinite amount of times and will occur an infinite amount of times. ever hear the phrase, "history repeats itself"? your life will, and has happened in the same way. this very moment has and will happen an infinite amount of times.
basically every other creature in existence, other than the one that creates the universe, is existing pointlessly, except for the influence of reactions that lead up to the end/ beginning.
there is no "god" as humans would believe, however there is an entity that will create the universe. although the universe will have had to exist before that entity does.
reality is a paradox
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT 
|
BirdsIView
Mr. Helms
Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 736
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986508 - 08/01/10 06:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Ahh my idea is stolen! Ha kidding but yeah this has been my thinking for quite some time now.
Just want to add that theoretically a super computer could map out the future based on this theory. Just take all starting conditions of the universe and from there map out the reactions and there you go.
|
 NortonStPhallus
Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 760
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: BirdsIView]
#12986541 - 08/01/10 06:34 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Useful concept though.
--------------------
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986551 - 08/01/10 06:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is pre determined based on previous actions. even this moment right now.
Maybe, but these moments influence our decision-making processes (i.e.- our will).
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986570 - 08/01/10 06:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
Except that the world doesn't work that way. Experiments in particle physics have for the last hundred years consistently demonstrated that some quantum events are uncaused. Radioactive decay, for example.
All that can be said about the decay of a nucleus is the probability that it will decay in a given amount of time. But there is no cause. It simply happens with certain probability.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#12986588 - 08/01/10 06:41 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Salomon said:
everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is pre determined based on previous actions. even this moment right now.
Maybe, but these moments influence our decision-making processes (i.e.- our will).
yes, and no.
your "will" exists in the sense that events preceding the formation of the thoughts in your head, which were stimuli recieved by your senses caused the reaction that was you decision. this process repeats through out your entire life.
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986593 - 08/01/10 06:42 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
i personally embrace trhe theory that freewill is the ultimate deception of consciousness primarily because it basically frees me of all responsibility. all actions are governed by the laws of science, chemical reactions within the environment around you dictate the reactions within your own body causing behaviors, compulsions and addiction. its my salvation, in fact.
in the split-seconds (less than?) after the pellet of energy exploded particles flowed out in the expansion like a highly condensed liquid.. something caused a disturbance, like a ripple ontop of a ponds surface, this interruption is what caused matter as we know it to space-out unevenly, compacting in massive orbs of energy in parts of our universe while leaving vast spaces between them in vacuum. whatever caused this interruption is my god...
buyers beware: dont really know what im talking about
--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986610 - 08/01/10 06:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Salomon said:
everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is pre determined based on previous actions. even this moment right now.
Maybe, but these moments influence our decision-making processes (i.e.- our will).
yes, and no.
your "will" exists in the sense that events preceding the formation of the thoughts in your head, which were stimuli recieved by your senses caused the reaction that was you decision. this process repeats through out your entire life.
Yes, my will exists in the sense that it's existent. 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12986617 - 08/01/10 06:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
Except that the world doesn't work that way. Experiments in particle physics have for the last hundred years consistently demonstrated that some quantum events are uncaused. Radioactive decay, for example.
All that can be said about the decay of a nuclius is the probability that it will decay in a given amount of time. But there is no cause. It simply happens with certain probability.
ah yes, but i ask you in return, before the creation of the universe, did those particles exist?
wouldnt they need to first be created in order to exist and then "randomly" decay?
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986644 - 08/01/10 06:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
ah yes, but i ask you in return, before the creation of the universe, did those particles exist?
Any theories regarding anything "before" the Big Bang are not scientific.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986649 - 08/01/10 06:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
It is meaningless to speak of things "before" the beginning of the universe because time did not exist then.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986665 - 08/01/10 06:52 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
the universe created itself out of the vacuum of nonexistence.
within the model of nothingness, somehow everything becomes possible.
the particles did exist "before" the creation of the universe,
look at it like a shadow, a simultaneous duality of nothing and everything at the exact same time
buyers beware: no fucking clue what im typing
--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
|
Crumpet
go sranger
Registered: 04/21/10
Posts: 1,082
Loc: Australia 
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#12986671 - 08/01/10 06:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
That doesn't mean you cant at least temporarily stop something from happening  Like thousands or millions of years ago (which ever suits you) aboriginal cultures were the dominant form of intelligence. Now if history in embedded into the future and definitely repeats itself. How many years do we have to wait to get back to the true roots of human existence on this god forgotten ape ridden planet? I dono, but nobody would condone the resurrection of such survival techniques unless a fucking meteorite struck and fucked every cunt the hell up! 
--------------------
Ronda Nina...
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12986672 - 08/01/10 06:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
egh.. i suppose that was bad phrasing.
but my point remains. they were created, no?
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986717 - 08/01/10 06:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
but my point remains. they were created, no?
That doesn't mean there was a cause. The available evidence suggests there was no First Cause. The universe came into existence with nothing to cause it.
The universe both did not always exist and also had no first instant of existence. Sounds like a contradiction, but physics has had to come to grips with such things since the discovery of particle-wave duality 100 years ago.
More recently, atomic nuclei decay *without* anything causing it. They just decay with a probability that can be precisely calculated but with no cause.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12986772 - 08/01/10 07:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
you sir have intrigued me.
gonna have to do me some research, i suppose.
however, i am curious, would there be an end to a universe that needs no beginning?
and how do parrallel universes fit into the equation? or do they?
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12986785 - 08/01/10 07:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
That doesn't mean there was a cause. The available evidence suggests there was no First Cause. The universe came into existence with nothing to cause it.
btw, link?
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986858 - 08/01/10 07:23 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
my preacher told me everything happens for a reason
Edited by Lallafa (08/01/10 07:43 PM)
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986888 - 08/01/10 07:28 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
"First there was nothing, then it exploded."
...it's a bit hard to say there was a beginning. Is the idea of a beginning only created by our current linear concepts?
As diploid as said, there are only probabilities, not even determined particles, until they are observed, not to mention completely uncaused events. Will must have a crucial role in the existence of the universe.
IMO the fact that humans exist with sentience is proof that the universe has at least equal or greater sentience. And what does the universe create, BUT sentience? Surely if there is a bird, and the bird is the universe, the universe is then sentient? And where does it end? Is all matter (energy) sentient in some vague way?
--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...
TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12986920 - 08/01/10 07:34 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
however, i am curious, would there be an end to a universe that needs no beginning?
Current thinking is that entropy will continue to increase until around 10^100 years from now, entropy will make the universe into a perfectly energy-homogeneous space and it will remain that way forever.
As for links, well, there isn't any one place to read about this. These ideas developed from a wide array of disciplines from the huge scales of cosmology to the tiny scales of particle physics, but these will give you a good start from which you can branch out on your own:
The Plank Epoch
The Universe's Wave Function
Continuum Limit
Supersymmetry
Some of these ideas will be tested in the Large Hadron Collider in the next few years. 
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12986979 - 08/01/10 07:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
looks like i have some reading ahead of me, thanks bro
lets see what we have here
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Lovesick
lol
Registered: 06/07/10
Posts: 1
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12987103 - 08/01/10 08:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
This forum is amazing.
--------------------
www.totse.info/bbs
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12987278 - 08/01/10 08:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is pre determined based on previous actions. even this moment right now.
in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
for example, let us say that you have "chosen" to open this thread and read what i have just written. you entered the thread because you read the title because you entered this forum, because you entered the shroomery message board because you entered the main website, because you opened your internet provider, because you turned on your computer, etc.
you can trace every action you've ever performed to an action preceding it, all the way back to when your parents fornicated when the egg in your mother and the single sperm from your father were the genetic make up of you, this happened because it happened on that specific moment, and we can trace all of their action's causes back to when they were created by their parents, and so on.
we can use this concept of actions caused by preceding actions to trace every single action that has ever happened in the universe back to the creation of our universe, and indeed every universe. yes i am proposing that there are multiple universes, ours being governed by three dimensions. in other universes, with other dimensions, these dimensions are not used, but can be accessed, likewise in our universe.
equally, we can trace every organism on earth back to one common ancestor. now let us assume that in each universe there exists some form of life. what is the purpose of life? this question can be answered by using the principles of evolution and survival instincts. every organism in our universe started from one single organism, evolving into more and more organisms in an attempt to be the dominate "species" in the universe. why? because the goal of life is to become advanced enough to, at the end of the universe, travel through time, to create the beginning of all the universes. likewise this is the goal of all organisms in all universes. however, under predetermination, the organism that is to become the most advanced of all is already set. imagine each universe is a different version of each other, all developing at different rates, under different conditions. only one universe will contain the most advanced organism of all the universes. the other are equivalent to under evolved species. likewise with in all the universes, all but the one organism that is predetermined to "win the race" are under evolved.
at the end of the universe, when matter is sent through time, but not space, to before the universe has started, this is the cause of the universe. this would mean that when this event happens, every event that has ever happened will repeat in the exact same manor. indeed this event has happened an infinite amount of times and will occur an infinite amount of times. ever hear the phrase, "history repeats itself"? your life will, and has happened in the same way. this very moment has and will happen an infinite amount of times.
basically every other creature in existence, other than the one that creates the universe, is existing pointlessly, except for the influence of reactions that lead up to the end/ beginning.
there is no "god" as humans would believe, however there is an entity that will create the universe. although the universe will have had to exist before that entity does.
reality is a paradox
Proof?
--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Icelander]
#12987681 - 08/01/10 09:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
free will is not an illusion
sure, let's say that roughly half or more of everything one experiences is beyond their control: being a human being, breathing, living amongst sky, the sun, etc
but look
 
I see free will as like a game of pool. The pool players do not choose the shape of the table, or rules of the game. The balls all wind up in the holes anyway, but the course of the game is determined by the actions of the players
that is probably not quite a metaphor for existence itself, but it captures a bit of my opinion about free will
I didn't have to post this, btw. Your post is like my pool table and my post is my deciding I feel like playing
--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
   
Edited by the bizzle (08/01/10 10:01 PM)
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12987770 - 08/01/10 10:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
but my point remains. they were created, no?
More recently, atomic nuclei decay *without* anything causing it. They just decay with a probability that can be precisely calculated but with no cause.
Isn't there a cause, just a probabilistic cause? Like the nuclear forces of the atom having potential energy, neutrons and electrons and protons moving about with kinetic energy till the atom randomly reaches a state where it overcomes the activation energy and drops to a lower potential energy, like a chemical reaction?
|
fr0g7
Shampoo Fragrance Tester
Registered: 01/27/10
Posts: 240
Last seen: 6 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#12988098 - 08/01/10 10:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Simply performing action A does not mean that performing action B is obligatory. Just because there are multiple steps involved in performing some action of your will, doesn't remove the notion of free will from the equation. At any point between start and end you are of your own volition to either continue your task or perhaps take some other course.
--------------------
When I was a kid, my father always used to wash my mouth out with soap; but that was only to get rid of any traces of his DNA.
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: the bizzle]
#12989325 - 08/02/10 05:41 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
the bizzle said:
I didn't have to post this
yet, you did
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Sellith
The False Dawn
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 1,066
Loc: The Void 
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12990051 - 08/02/10 11:06 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
Except that the world doesn't work that way. Experiments in particle physics have for the last hundred years consistently demonstrated that some quantum events are uncaused. Radioactive decay, for example.
All that can be said about the decay of a nucleus is the probability that it will decay in a given amount of time. But there is no cause. It simply happens with certain probability.
I fully agree, every question has an answer.
--------------------
|
TheSkyInYourEye
Stillness Bathing
Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 185
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Sellith]
#12990068 - 08/02/10 11:12 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The real illusion lies within the perceiver.
--------------------
Subtlety is the language of experience.
|
Sellith
The False Dawn
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 1,066
Loc: The Void
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
|
|
Quote:
TheSkyInYourEye said:
The real illusion lies within the perceiver.
There's no difference, as perception is reality and that's all there is to it.
No numbers you cannot count to.
--------------------
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Sellith]
#12991681 - 08/02/10 04:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Perception is made up more that 50% from fantasy (internal brain functions).
So to say 'perception is reality' is a large strech.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: BlueCoyote]
#12992397 - 08/02/10 06:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Perception is made up more that 50% from fantasy (internal brain functions).
How did you determine that internal brain functions are 50% fantasy? 
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
So to say 'perception is reality' is a large strech.
Not really, perception is all my reality is.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#12992536 - 08/02/10 07:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
How did you determine that internal brain functions are 50% fantasy?
By using 10% of his brain's potential. 
--------------------
|
QiGong
Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 133
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12992575 - 08/02/10 07:23 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
Quote:
the bizzle said:
I didn't have to post this
yet, you did;)
Let's contemplate all the things he didn't post.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: QiGong]
#12993458 - 08/02/10 10:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
WAKKA WAKKA
--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
Edited by the bizzle (08/02/10 10:34 PM)
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: the bizzle]
#12993653 - 08/02/10 11:18 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I played so much of the Legend of Zelda that I'm sure it changed my brain structure, and thus my choices.
|
BirdsIView
Mr. Helms
Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 736
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12993680 - 08/02/10 11:22 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
you sir have intrigued me.
gonna have to do me some research, i suppose.
however, i am curious, would there be an end to a universe that needs no beginning?
and how do parrallel universes fit into the equation? or do they?
Parrallel universes in the way that Ive heard them described do not fit. I rememer watching one of the history channel shows on them and the Asian guy was saying how in a parrallel universe instead of making a left turn you made a right turn and now you're married to someone else and so on and so on. But how could something that started the same way under the same circumstances have different results? The universe I am sure started under very specific circumstances that caused very specific outcomes that could not be any different. Just think if you bounced a ball with all variables being exactly the same, velocity, wind etc. the ball will bounce in exactly the same way every time. It's no different for the universe, if started the same way, all things shall be the same from start to finish.
|
AdMech
Stranger
Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 98
Loc: Mars
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12993933 - 08/03/10 12:26 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
The notion of "free will" as most people think of it is inherently flawed. People think it means one must be able to do something without being affected by any antecedent event or even mental state; this is obviously impossible. What, then, would be the basis of your decisions? It would require our brains (or souls, if you are so inclined) have some magical, as-yet undefined property.
Some quantum-scale events, as someone else brought up, seem to be uncaused - but an event governed by probability is no more "free" in this sense than a human-scale event governed by more consistent laws.
The very notion of "will" requires desire, and that desire must rise out of one's self. This is what the more correct (I believe) definition of free will proposes. Hume, if I recall correctly, was the first to suggest the notion of "compatibilism": a deterministic universe does not mean one's will is not free. Hume defines a free decision to be a choice which no exterior force is causing. This is also the definition we use, by necessity, in everyday life.
The brain and self can be looked at as a machine for producing results given input. If, for whatever reasons, I like chocolate and want to eat a chocolate bar, then my decision to eat the chocolate bar is free in any way that matters. If this universe wasn't deterministic, and some magical "free will" existed which meant I was free from... being myself... I'd still choose to eat the chocolate bar. It is my desire and my decision, even if it arose out of a previous mental state.
That is, after all, what a brain is! What sort of self can there be if one's personal psychological makeup did not direct one's decisions? If I, as I am now, were transported to a non-deterministic universe, then would I still have my personality? If I did, I'd still eat the chocolate bar... so where's the difference? If I didn't, then where is my will?
Just my .02¢. If you're intrigued but I make no sense, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy does an excellent job of explaining.
--------------------
Lexmechanic
Edited by AdMech (08/03/10 12:35 AM)
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell 
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: AdMech]
#12994304 - 08/03/10 02:08 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
AdMech said:
.
The brain and self can be looked at as a machine for producing results given input.
So the you would equate the brain to a microprocessor that can only act in line with its operating system. You could always change your software, have you never been surprised by your own actions or thoughts.
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#12994425 - 08/03/10 03:15 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
I played so much of the Legend of Zelda that I'm sure it changed my brain structure, and thus my choices.
well sure, and you didn't design the levels, but you played them how you chose to
--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: the bizzle]
#12994438 - 08/03/10 03:26 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Does zelda invole making moral decisions and if so, did making the right moral decision help you complete a level ?
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Brainstem]
#12994450 - 08/03/10 03:41 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Brainstem said:
Does zelda invole making moral decisions and if so, did making the right moral decision help you complete a level ?
it involves deciding whether or not you want to play a videogame, so in a way, I guess you could say it does
plus you can decide whether or not you want to use a strategy guide
or perhaps a more moral aspect of playing zelda is whether or not you stole your friend's copy and murdered your father to get some time on the TV
what is the point of this line of questioning? 
--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
|
Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: AdMech]
#12995059 - 08/03/10 09:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
zeno effect
what?
--------------------
my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: the bizzle]
#12995165 - 08/03/10 09:53 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
the bizzle said:
Quote:
Freedom said:
I played so much of the Legend of Zelda that I'm sure it changed my brain structure, and thus my choices.
well sure, and you didn't design the levels, but you played them how you chose to
Really? What is this you thing?
In your reply to me, try to look at the source of the words that come out. You may choose, but who chooses to chose? When I look at my words and all my actions and decisions, they appear to come out of nowhere, without any 'me' having anything to do with it.
|
EyelessVagabond
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Bellona
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#12995326 - 08/03/10 10:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Well I'll play devil's advocate in a way, because I don't necessarily believe you are wrong but that doesn't make you right either.
First lets agree upon the definition of "free-will" as having the ability to voluntary choose in a way uncontrolled by external events. To some degree it dictates a supernatural force because if the force was natural (explainable) then the action would no longer be "free", follow?
Second, a previous event doesn't "dictate" the next event. As others have mentioned on a quantum scale only probabilities exist. This leads to the oft quoted "Butterfly Effect".
I agree that previous events dictate future events, but not in a deterministic way. This in-determinism allows for "free will".
Look at it this way, "free-will" requires a scientifically unpredictable outcome. Nature clearly allows for unpredictable outcomes (probabilistically finite but essentially infinite). In this space the possibility for "free-will" exist in that maybe that outcome is not random, but determined by "will".
Bad scientific theory as it can never be proved or disproved but the point is that the possibility for free-will does exist and as long as the future remains scientifically unpredictable (which seems likely) free-will is possible.
--------------------
Do what you will, this world's a fiction
And is made up of contradiction
-William Blake
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
 Re: free will is an illusion [Re: AdMech]
#12995333 - 08/03/10 10:39 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
If, for whatever reasons, I like chocolate and want to eat a chocolate bar, then my decision to eat the chocolate bar is free in any way that matters.
If the universe is deterministic, then regardless of your perception of the ability to make a choice about eating chocolate, in fact, it would be impossible for you to chose otherwise. The set of events that ultimately deterministically lead to your "choice" to eat chocolate instead of something else would be immutably set in the determinism... in the fall of the last domino in a long row once the first one is set into motion.
You can tell yourself you're choosing but even your telling yourself that is a deterministic result and it could not have been otherwise.
That's IF the universe is deterministic, which all the evidence says it's not.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#12995344 - 08/03/10 10:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Isn't there a cause, just a probabilistic cause? Like the nuclear forces of the atom having potential energy, neutrons and electrons and protons moving about with kinetic energy till the atom randomly reaches a state where it overcomes the activation energy and drops to a lower potential energy, like a chemical reaction?
The short answer: There is no known cause of nuclear decay.
I was trying to avoid it, but here's the long answer:
First some concepts.
The world of the very small is not intuitive. For example, subatomic particles aren't "particles" in the sense that we normally think of a particle. Consider a proton. At any given instant before its measured, its "location" is every point in the universe simultaneously with some points having a high probability that when you actually look, you will find it there, and other points having a low probability that when you look, you will find it there. Where it actually ends up being observed is random with the probability skewed in favor of some points over others. I think that's kinda cool that we all exist everywhere in the universe in a scientifically valid sense, but anyway...
Now consider a proton in your finger. If you look for it, it will almost always be in the vicinity of your finger and almost never out near Jupiter. The probability that it will be observed out there is EXTREMELY tiny, practically zero, but not zero. It tends asymptotically toward zero. If you keep looking at it for a trillion times longer than the universe has existed, eventually, you'll find that somehow your measurement found it near Jupiter and then the next time you look, you will find it near your finger again (because the probability of observing it way out by Jupiter twice in a row is even smaller than it was the first time).
So yeah, what we normally think of when we say "particles" don't do that sort of thing. Or more precisely, they COULD do that but the probability that all the billions of atoms in a particle of sand on Earth will defy very tiny (but non-zero) odds of suddenly being observed near Jupiter is much smaller than for a single proton. If you consider how unlikely it is for a proton, imagine how much MORE unlikely it is for the billions of atoms in a particle of sand to defy the odds at the same time. It never happens even though it COULD in principle.
Because of the above, we never encounter the bizarre effects of quantum mechanics in our macro world (because they become exponentially less likely as the number of subatomic particles being considered increases). But as things get smaller and smaller, the effects become more and more dominant. Physicists phrase this by saying that "quantum effects become significant" at the scale of the atom.
OK, so now I'll talk about the Strong Force. No not the one in Star Wars.
Everything in the universe is mediated by four (probably fewer, but I won't get into that here) fundamental forces. Electromagnetism (EM), Gravity, and the Strong and Weak nuclear forces. The first two account for all of your day to day experience. Gravity keeps you on Earth and keeps the Earth from falling apart.
Electromagnetism is what keeps you from dropping through your chair and down into the Earth. When you touch something, you aren't actually making contact with it. What's happening is the tiny magnets made up of electrons in the atoms of your butt push against the same kinds of tiny magnets in the atoms of your chair. You're being literally levitated on the magnetic fields of your butt and the chair. These forces are only strong enough to notice at very short range (when your butt is very close to your chair), which is why it seems like we're making physical contact with things when we're only bumping against each other's EM field.
When a baseball bat smacks into a baseball, again, they don't actually touch. Before contact is made, the EM field of the batt meets the EM field of the ball and the magnetic repulsive forces are what push the ball out of the baseball stadium.
The air pressure that keeps you alive happens because molecules of air push against each other's EM fields and against the fields of your lungs and your body to produce what we call pressure to keep you alive. Sound is waves pushing air molecules into each other's EM fields and this "pushing" propagating as a wave until it reaches your eardrum and cause the EM fields of the air and your eardrum to interact.
Even light, radio waves, and x-rays are manifestations of electromagnetism.
The last two fundamental forces that account for everything that happens in the universe are the Strong and Weak nuclear forces but they're not part of everyday experience. I won't go into too much detail other than to say that the Strong and Weak nuclear forces account for the things that happen in the nucleus of an atom. The Strong force in particular is why a nucleus full of protons and neutrons doesn't fly apart even though the positive charge on every proton repels the positive charge on every other proton. The Strong force overcomes the electromagnetic repulsion of the protons at very small distances.
Consider an atom of of some radioactive element. In the nucleus of this atom are many protons and neutrons. Since like charges repel each other, all the protons are constantly trying to push away from each other, but because of the Strong force, they're kept tightly bound. You can think of it like a compressed mass of rubber balls. They're all trying to fly away from each other, but the Strong force is keeping them tightly compressed.
As it happens in the design of the universe, the strength of the Strong Force drops off VERY quickly with distance while the EM Force drops off more slowly with distance. The practical upshot of this is that if you were to reach into a nucleus and grab an alpha particle (a group of two protons and two neutrons) and pulled, the strong force would resist you and try to keep the nucleus together. But if you kept pulling, at some critical distance from the nucleus, the Strong force (which drops off faster with distance than the EM force) would weaken to the point where the repulsive EM force becomes dominant and PING! the alpha particle you were pulling on suddenly tries to fly away from the nucleus at some large fraction of the speed of light.
Now the beef.
Remember how I started out explaining how subatomic "particles" exist at every point in the universe randomly with varying probability until they're observed? This is also true for alpha particles (groups of two protons and two neutrons) in the nucleus of atoms. At any given instant, an alpha particle has a very high probability of existing inside the sphere of influence of the Strong force and so it stays put. But there is also a low probability that at any given instant, the alpha particle will exist just outside the sphere of influence of the Strong force. If you wait long enough, this low-probability event will eventually happen. When it does, PING! the alpha particle will fly away from the nucleus because it suddenly found itself existing just far enough away where the EM force pushing it away is stronger than the Strong force keeping it bound.
This is called Quantum Tunneling. The alpha particle "tunneled" though the Strong force, something that, classically, is impossible because the alpha particle doesn't have enough energy to overcome the Strong Force. Through Quantum Tunneling, it doesn't actually overcome the Strong force but rather just suddenly finds itself beyond its reach. This happens with a very precisely calculable (low) probability.
So you see, nothing caused the alpha decay. It was just that the alpha particle had a small (but non-zero) probability at any given instant to be at a point in the universe far enough away from the influence of the (attractive) Strong force to be predominantly influenced by the (repulsive) EM force instead. Even though this is unlikely, if you wait long enough, it will happen and a radioactive atom will decay without anything to cause it.
I'm a little stoned so I hope all that makes sense. I may have to edit it tomorrow. 
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
EyelessVagabond
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Bellona
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
|
I'm impressed with your surprisingly astute stoned scientific writing, props
--------------------
Do what you will, this world's a fiction
And is made up of contradiction
-William Blake
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12995448 - 08/03/10 11:14 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at. Wouldn't whatever moves the the particle be the cause?
|
Sunny
free-ballin
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 12,350
Loc: on the magic bus
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#12995467 - 08/03/10 11:21 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is pre determined based on previous actions. even this moment right now.
in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
for example, let us say that you have "chosen" to open this thread and read what i have just written. you entered the thread because you read the title because you entered this forum, because you entered the shroomery message board because you entered the main website, because you opened your internet provider, because you turned on your computer, etc.
you can trace every action you've ever performed to an action preceding it, all the way back to when your parents fornicated when the egg in your mother and the single sperm from your father were the genetic make up of you, this happened because it happened on that specific moment, and we can trace all of their action's causes back to when they were created by their parents, and so on.
we can use this concept of actions caused by preceding actions to trace every single action that has ever happened in the universe back to the creation of our universe, and indeed every universe. yes i am proposing that there are multiple universes, ours being governed by three dimensions. in other universes, with other dimensions, these dimensions are not used, but can be accessed, likewise in our universe.
equally, we can trace every organism on earth back to one common ancestor. now let us assume that in each universe there exists some form of life. what is the purpose of life? this question can be answered by using the principles of evolution and survival instincts. every organism in our universe started from one single organism, evolving into more and more organisms in an attempt to be the dominate "species" in the universe. why? because the goal of life is to become advanced enough to, at the end of the universe, travel through time, to create the beginning of all the universes. likewise this is the goal of all organisms in all universes. however, under predetermination, the organism that is to become the most advanced of all is already set. imagine each universe is a different version of each other, all developing at different rates, under different conditions. only one universe will contain the most advanced organism of all the universes. the other are equivalent to under evolved species. likewise with in all the universes, all but the one organism that is predetermined to "win the race" are under evolved.
at the end of the universe, when matter is sent through time, but not space, to before the universe has started, this is the cause of the universe. this would mean that when this event happens, every event that has ever happened will repeat in the exact same manor. indeed this event has happened an infinite amount of times and will occur an infinite amount of times. ever hear the phrase, "history repeats itself"? your life will, and has happened in the same way. this very moment has and will happen an infinite amount of times.
basically every other creature in existence, other than the one that creates the universe, is existing pointlessly, except for the influence of reactions that lead up to the end/ beginning.
there is no "god" as humans would believe, however there is an entity that will create the universe. although the universe will have had to exist before that entity does.
reality is a paradox
The inherit flaw in this philosophy is that it presumes that causality is the same as dharma. That there is only one single etched path for any given action and reaction, and that the events are the same forwards as they are backwards. We know however from real world observation that this is not true.
I agree though that human action and reaction is certainly formulaic, it has been observed to be predictable within certain conditions, when involving certain people.
--------------------
WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#12995517 - 08/03/10 11:34 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
yeah, that's sort of what I was getting at. Wouldn't whatever moves the the particle be the cause?
Nothing moves the particle. It doesn't have to move. Before the measurement, it exists simultaneously in superposition at every point in space all throughout the entire universe, then when the measurement is made, it is found at one specific point. The probability varies for each point in the universe that it will be observed there, but it doesn't "move" there. It already IS everywhere before the measurement and at one specific point after the measurement. Then again everywhere until the next measurement.
More technically, this is called Wave Function Collapse. Read that link. It's interesting stuff. The universe is a weird place.
BTW, I'm not saying that this means we have free will. What it means is that you can't claim there is no free will based on recourse to a deterministic universe. The evidence says the universe is NOT deterministic.
There may be no free will for some other reason, but I currently believe free will IS a feature of the universe and the available evidence doesn't contradict this.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
TheSkyInYourEye
Stillness Bathing
Registered: 04/07/10
Posts: 185
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12995621 - 08/03/10 12:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
To OP:
Your argument is flawed because you think that it is all based off of one cause which produced all these effects. What you are missing is that every effect has innumerable amount of causes, a web that connects the flapping of a butterflies wing to me typing this at this very moment. Also meaning that as to what I feel like doing right now is a cause, one of the innumerable to what the effect will be.
And your argument assumes that everything about us, internal and external are all affected only by the external. That we can't feel, we can't think freely but are bounded by our surroundings at all times. This, I find in most cases, is not true. Because I can feel freely, I can roam about as to where my feelings like. To say that everything that has happened up till now has conditioned my feelings to feel a certain away as opposed to awareness's insight is blasphemy in my eyes.
The statement is ignorant and has too many loose ends for it to be truth. I think a better statement would be "Free will is an illusion is an illusion in itself."
--------------------
Subtlety is the language of experience.
Edited by TheSkyInYourEye (08/03/10 12:27 PM)
|
AdMech
Stranger
Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 98
Loc: Mars
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#12996069 - 08/03/10 01:28 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
If the universe is deterministic, then regardless of your perception of the ability to make a choice about eating chocolate, in fact, it would be impossible for you to chose otherwise. The set of events that ultimately deterministically lead to your "choice" to eat chocolate instead of something else would be immutably set in the determinism... in the fall of the last domino in a long row once the first one is set into motion.
You can tell yourself you're choosing but even your telling yourself that is a deterministic result and it could not have been otherwise.
Yes, this is correct. I don't deny this; in fact, I specifically note it. The premise behind compatibilism is that my mind/personality - however it was formed, deterministically or not - is what is making the decisions. Could it have made different ones? No; but if it had, then it wouldn't be me anyway. My desire to eat chocolate is the immediate cause (and yes, it too has causes): even in a universe where I could choose differently, it wouldn't make sense for me to. Fulfilling desires is what people do.
Indeterminable futures are not required for free will. At least, not for the sort of free will I believe exists. I encourage you to read the link at the end of my previous post if I don't make sense.
This is all ignoring the question as to whether or not the universe is deterministic. As you point out, lots of events are based on probability rather than immutable laws. I can't see where free will could come into play even so - chance is no more free than deterministic cause-and-effect - but although I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it, I don't have an opinion and thus don't wish to debate it. :-)
--------------------
Lexmechanic
Edited by AdMech (08/03/10 01:34 PM)
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#12998142 - 08/03/10 07:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
the bizzle said:
Quote:
Freedom said:
I played so much of the Legend of Zelda that I'm sure it changed my brain structure, and thus my choices.
well sure, and you didn't design the levels, but you played them how you chose to
Really? What is this you thing?
In your reply to me, try to look at the source of the words that come out. You may choose, but who chooses to chose? When I look at my words and all my actions and decisions, they appear to come out of nowhere, without any 'me' having anything to do with it.
that does not convince me that free will is an illusion
I stand by my earlier statement. Many things you cannot choose, such as being a human, being born, having to die, etc, and other things you can choose, such as whether or not you eat your boogers.
the emotion of regret may be worthless, if that's your fancy, but it would not exist if there weren't the option of feeling "I could have done something else instead"
and you wouldn't be presented with the option of changing or not changing your behavior to at least a limited degree
if you think free will is an absolute illusion, then why bother convincing anyone? what would it matter? we would all be on an automated course
in fact, why bother doing anything? it's all going to do itself, right?
no
or maybe i'm just confused, and nobody is trying to argue that free will is an absolute illusion. I don't really see why anyone would think that anyway
--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
Edited by the bizzle (08/03/10 07:59 PM)
|
Sunny
free-ballin
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 12,350
Loc: on the magic bus
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: the bizzle]
#12998184 - 08/03/10 08:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
This debate appears to be heavily masturbatory, with the exception of Diploids well structured, and informed posts...
--------------------
WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13001533 - 08/04/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Perception is made up more that 50% from fantasy (internal brain functions).
How did you determine that internal brain functions are 50% fantasy?
I learned and realized about it in some psychology courses. One is, all that patternizing of our brain functions, like in optical illusions. The second is wishful thinking. For example, if ur hungry, you just notice food and good smells everywhere.
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
So to say 'perception is reality' is a large strech.
Not really, perception is all my reality is.
Right, but I think it's healthy to discern from 'real' reality and 'subjective' reality, which one also perceives.
But I'm not sure how this has to do something with the original thread 
For the matter, I also think determinism is only one half of the truth. Once for the quantum facts diploid stated, and the other one comes from the simultaneity of all those causes and their interaction with themselves. Like the butterfly effect, it makes a prediction and linearity almost seem impossible.
Edited by BlueCoyote (08/04/10 01:26 PM)
|
Sellith
The False Dawn
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 1,066
Loc: The Void
Last seen: 5 months, 2 days
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: BlueCoyote]
#13001889 - 08/04/10 02:25 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Perception is made up more that 50% from fantasy (internal brain functions).
So to say 'perception is reality' is a large strech.
50% huh? So... -Why- is this fake?
--------------------
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Sellith]
#13006344 - 08/05/10 10:08 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Fake ? Hmmm, one might be dissapointed if (real) reality doesn't follow one's imagination.
|
EyelessVagabond
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Bellona
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: BlueCoyote]
#13006804 - 08/05/10 11:25 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Blue Coyote you're only slightly right. Our brains do 'fabricate' sensory details to some degree but an important point. Perception is already completely disconnected from reality, its an individual phenomenon by definition. A slight disconnect but it'd be tough to argue that taste is 50% fabricated, same holds true with vision or hearing.
Basically perception is 100% fabricated as it is all made up by internal brain functions. All it is, is a reflection of reality.
--------------------
Do what you will, this world's a fiction
And is made up of contradiction
-William Blake
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
|
Indeed, that's what I mean too. BUT there also is 'some' truth about 'reality' in those perceptions (less than 50%)
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
|
haha I was just going to write that but decided not to get into it.
|
EyelessVagabond
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Bellona
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: BlueCoyote]
#13007365 - 08/05/10 01:24 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Indeed, that's what I mean too. BUT there also is 'some' truth about 'reality' in those perceptions (less than 50%)
Still disagree, I think haha. If you consider perception to be an accurate mirror of reality, then the accuracy would be 100%. I think maybe what you mean to say is that the information your sense organs (eyes, ears, tongue) collect contain 50% of reality. The other 50% is invented within your brain to fill in 'gaps'. I dunno maybe we've agreed all along but didn't understand each other.
--------------------
Do what you will, this world's a fiction
And is made up of contradiction
-William Blake
|
BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 6,697
Loc: Between
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
|
Indeed we can agree. But what is accurate perception in terms of objective versus subjective related to 'reality' ?
For some/most people, those gaps, as u call them, become inverted into the main matter, and that what's objectively real transforms to those gaps which holds their fantasies together.
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
|
What would our world be like if we had the sensory capability to observe every piece of information that came within our scope, or being able to competently observe time from outside of the time dimension / the plain of time. Free will when looked at with hindsight may seem like an illusion, but thats because you can't change a decision after the fact, and so it's easier to say it would've happened like that no matter what and it's also a way of avoiding responsibility for ones actions, sort of like an alternative to saying te devil made me do it.
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
spectralis
Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 196
|
|
BTW, I'm not saying that this means we have free will. What it means is that you can't claim there is no free will based on recourse to a deterministic universe. The evidence says the universe is NOT deterministic.
not fundamentally deterministic - but deterministic to a high degree of accuracy at the scale of multiple blobs of quazillions of electrons? The high probablility can still be used to claim there is no free will on the scale of human choices (not that it's a useful belief).
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: spectralis]
#13012595 - 08/06/10 01:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
not fundamentally deterministic - but deterministic to a high degree of accuracy at the scale of multiple blobs of quazillions of electrons?
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
The universe is not deterministic, period (according to the evidence). The scale doesn't matter.
If you put billiard balls on a pool table and hit the cue ball twice in a row, no matter how carefully you set up both shots and how accurately you try to hit the cue ball, the result will always be a random scattering because extremely tiny changes in the input lead to enormous changes in the outcome.
It's called The Butterfly Effect.
At the bottom of it all, there will always be quantum indeterminacy and non-determinism. A thousand years ago, it was NOT already fated that I would type this today.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#13013598 - 08/06/10 05:18 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Surely random chance isn't free will? You still don't have a say in things if it's down to a dice roll.
--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards.
"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Grapefruit]
#13013615 - 08/06/10 05:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
You're right, but that's not what I'm saying:
Quote:
Diploid said:BTW, I'm not saying that this means we have free will. What it means is that you can't claim there is no free will based on recourse to a deterministic universe. The evidence says the universe is NOT deterministic.
--------------------
Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Grapefruit
Freak in the forest
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 5,744
Last seen: 3 years, 3 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#13013635 - 08/06/10 05:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Sorry, didn't read the whole thread, my bad.
--------------------
Little left in the way of energy; or the way of love, yet happy to entertain myself playing mental games with the rest of you freaks until the rivers run backwards.
"Chat your fraff
Chat your fraff
Just chat your fraff
Chat your fraff"
|
spectralis
Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 196
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#13013863 - 08/06/10 06:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
In an undetermininstic universe, subsequent events from a 1000 years ago make the probability of us existing and typing our exact words less and less unlikely.
If you drop a tennis ball into a large circle from a low height or fire it towards 2 slits, according to physics you'd wait universes to see it behaving similar to an individual sub atomic particle.
The only hope for free will is that its camoflauged with natural random occurences at the quantum scale and somehow 'dominoes' itself into choices on a macro scale
|
Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Diploid]
#13014178 - 08/06/10 07:18 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said:
Isn't there a cause, just a probabilistic cause? Like the nuclear forces of the atom having potential energy, neutrons and electrons and protons moving about with kinetic energy till the atom randomly reaches a state where it overcomes the activation energy and drops to a lower potential energy, like a chemical reaction?
The short answer: There is no known cause of nuclear decay.
I was trying to avoid it, but here's the long answer:
First some concepts.
The world of the very small is not intuitive. For example, subatomic particles aren't "particles" in the sense that we normally think of a particle. Consider a proton. At any given instant before its measured, its "location" is every point in the universe simultaneously with some points having a high probability that when you actually look, you will find it there, and other points having a low probability that when you look, you will find it there. Where it actually ends up being observed is random with the probability skewed in favor of some points over others. I think that's kinda cool that we all exist everywhere in the universe in a scientifically valid sense, but anyway...
Now consider a proton in your finger. If you look for it, it will almost always be in the vicinity of your finger and almost never out near Jupiter. The probability that it will be observed out there is EXTREMELY tiny, practically zero, but not zero. It tends asymptotically toward zero. If you keep looking at it for a trillion times longer than the universe has existed, eventually, you'll find that somehow your measurement found it near Jupiter and then the next time you look, you will find it near your finger again (because the probability of observing it way out by Jupiter twice in a row is even smaller than it was the first time).
So yeah, what we normally think of when we say "particles" don't do that sort of thing. Or more precisely, they COULD do that but the probability that all the billions of atoms in a particle of sand on Earth will defy very tiny (but non-zero) odds of suddenly being observed near Jupiter is much smaller than for a single proton. If you considering how unlikely is for a proton, imagine how much MORE unlikely it is for the billions of atoms in a particle of sand to defy the odds at the same time. It never happens even though it COULD in principle.
Because of the above, we never encounter the bizarre effects of quantum mechanics in our macro world (because they become exponentially less likely as the number of subatomic particles being considered increases). But as things get smaller and smaller, the effects become more and more dominant. Physicists phrase this by saying that "quantum effects become significant" at the scale of the atom.
OK, so now I'll talk about the Strong Force. No not the one in Star Wars.
Everything in the universe is mediated by four (probably fewer, but I won't get into that here) fundamental forces. Electromagnetism (EM), Gravity, and the Strong and Weak nuclear forces. The first two account for all of your day to day experience. Gravity keeps you on Earth and keeps the Earth from falling apart.
Electromagnetism is what keeps you from dropping through your chair and down into the Earth. When you touch something, you aren't actually making contact with it. What's happening is the tiny magnets made up of electrons in the atoms of your butt push against the same kinds of tiny magnets in the atoms of your chair. You're being literally levitated on the magnetic fields of your butt and the chair. These forces are only strong enough to notice at very short range (when your butt is very close to your chair), which is why it seems like we're making physical contact with things when we're only bumping against each other's EM field.
When a baseball bat smacks into a baseball, again, they don't actually touch. Before contact is made, the EM field of the batt meets the EM field of the ball and the magnetic repulsive forces are what push the ball out of the baseball stadium.
The air pressure that keeps you alive happens because molecules of air push against each other's EM fields and against the fields of your lungs and your body to produce what we call pressure to keep you alive. Sound is waves pushing air molecules into each other's EM fields and this "pushing" propagating as a wave until it reaches your eardrum and cause the EM fields of the air and your eardrum to interact.
Even light, radio waves, and x-rays are manifestations of electromagnetism.
The last two fundamental forces that account for everything that happens in the universe are the Strong and Weak nuclear forces but they're not part of everyday experience. I won't go into too much detail other than to say that the Strong and Weak nuclear forces account for the things that happen in the nucleus of an atom. The Strong force in particular is why a nucleus full of protons and neutrons doesn't fly apart even though the positive charge on every proton repels the positive charge on every other proton. The Strong force overcomes the electromagnetic repulsion of the protons at very small distances.
Consider an atom of of some radioactive element. In the nucleus of this atom are many protons and neutrons. Since like charges repel each other, all the protons are constantly trying to push away from each other, but because of the Strong force, they're kept tightly bound. You can think of it like a compressed mass of rubber balls. They're all trying to fly away from each other, but the Strong force is keeping them tightly compressed.
As it happens in the design of the universe, the strength of the Strong Force drops off VERY quickly with distance while the EM Force drops off more slowly with distance. The practical upshot of this is that if you were to reach into a nucleus and grab an alpha particle (a group of two protons and two neutrons) and pulled, the strong force would resist you and try to keep the nucleus together. But if you kept pulling, at some critical distance from the nucleus, the Strong force (which drops off faster with distance than the EM force) would weaken to the point where the repulsive EM force becomes dominant and PING! the alpha particle you were pulling on suddenly tries to fly away from the nucleus at some large fraction of the speed of light.
Now the beef. Remember how I started out explaining how subatomic "particles" exist at every point in the universe randomly with varying probability until they're observed? This is also true for alpha particles (groups of two protons and two neutrons) in the nucleus of atoms. At any given instant, an alpha particle has a very high probability of existing inside the sphere of influence of the Strong force and so it stays put. But there is also a low probability that at any given instant, the alpha particle will exist just outside the sphere of influence of the Strong force. If you wait long enough, this low-probability even will eventually happen. When it does, PING! the alpha particle will fly away from the nucleus because it suddenly found itself existing just far enough away where the EM force pushing it away is stronger than the Strong force keeping it bound.
This is called Quantum Tunneling. The alpha particle "tunneled" though the Strong force, something that, classically, is impossible because the alpha particle doesn't have enough energy to overcome the Strong Force. Through Quantum Tunneling, it doesn't actually overcome the Strong force but rather just suddenly finds itself outside its reach. This happens with a very precisely calculable (low) probability.
So you see, nothing caused the alpha decay. It was just that the alpha particle had a small (but non-zero) probability at any given instant to be at a point in the universe far enough away from the influence of the (attractive) Strong force to be predominantly influenced by the (repulsive) EM force instead. Even though this is unlikely, if you wait long enough, it will happen and a radioactive atom will decay without anything to cause it.
When you talk about alpha-decay in radioactive material I wonder why this happens only in radioactive material? These alpha particals would exist in any elemental nucleus, would they not? Are they more likely to appear outside the nucleus of a radioactive material as a material that is more stable? Has this phenomenon actually been observed?
There seems to be something loose around the edges about these ideas. It seems that in order for this to occur, according to the rules of quantum mechanics, the alpha partical would have to be observed outside the atom's nucleus in order to be outside the atom's nucleus in which case it would have to be observed in a period of time so small that it exists between the point of observation and the point at which that partical is acted upon by EM. The odds of this seem even more unlikely than the phenomenon of tunneling itself, this being so unlikely that radioactive material would not decay.
--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat
“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson
The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.
The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
|
Just a thought - if we have no free will, don't I have the free will to determine how I react to that?
--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...
TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE
|
Senor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes]
#13014422 - 08/06/10 08:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
No. If you have no free will, then you do not have free will.
--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat
“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.” -- Thomas Jefferson
The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.
The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
|
But I can obviously choose whether or not I accept that...
--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...
TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes] 1
#13014584 - 08/06/10 08:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Free will is obviously real, it exists as our decision-making processes.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13015133 - 08/06/10 11:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
it's a chain reaction of thoughts.
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#13015374 - 08/07/10 12:23 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
If that were so my behaviour would be completely random.
--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...
TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes]
#13015382 - 08/07/10 12:24 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Isn't free will a neccessity for survival?
|
phxBoomer
Psychedelic Scientist
Registered: 02/27/09
Posts: 434
Last seen: 4 years, 11 days
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes]
#13015846 - 08/07/10 04:06 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
simply put...the universe is consciousness incarnate. Each and every one of us is a part of the collective consciousness in some schizophrenic sense of reality.
we are all different parts of the same thing viewing "ourselves" in some false pretense of "self".
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: phxBoomer]
#13015958 - 08/07/10 05:56 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
phxBoomer said:
simply put...the universe is consciousness incarnate. Each and every one of us is a part of the collective consciousness in some schizophrenic sense of reality.
we are all different parts of the same thing viewing "ourselves" in some false pretense of "self".
I agree. I resisted saying this because it's a bit of a cliche for me to say this sort of thing on this forum, I've argued it for so long...
--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...
TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes]
#13015972 - 08/07/10 06:10 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I also conclude this, but how do get the science police to recognize it for themselves ?
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
EyelessVagabond
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Bellona
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Grapefruit]
#13016024 - 08/07/10 06:46 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Grapefruit said:
Surely random chance isn't free will? You still don't have a say in things if it's down to a dice roll.
From a scientific perspective it is though. If the roll of the die could be determined ahead of time, then how could you argue that you have free will, the future was already decided. From the outside looking in, free will depends on the fact that the event would appear random, i.e. the outcome can't be known.
--------------------
Do what you will, this world's a fiction
And is made up of contradiction
-William Blake
|
EyelessVagabond
Stranger
Registered: 05/20/09
Posts: 159
Loc: Bellona
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Brainstem]
#13016029 - 08/07/10 06:50 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Brainstem said:
I also conclude this, but how do get the science police to recognize it for themselves ?
'science police' haha interesting way to put it, I'd consider myself one. I could agree with that though, for free-will to exist it'd have to be somewhat metaphysical. Weather the interpretation of a universal consciousness is right or not, who knows. The theory itself is no more absurd in my mind than free will is itself.
--------------------
Do what you will, this world's a fiction
And is made up of contradiction
-William Blake
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
|
what if the die had an infinite number of faces ?
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes]
#13016433 - 08/07/10 10:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
circastes said:
But I can obviously choose whether or not I accept that...
why is it obvious? Because it feels like you decide what you do?
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: phxBoomer]
#13017158 - 08/07/10 01:20 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
phxBoomer said:
simply put...the universe is consciousness incarnate.
WTF does this even mean?
Quote:
Freedom said:
Quote:
circastes said:
But I can obviously choose whether or not I accept that...
why is it obvious? Because it feels like you decide what you do?
It's obvious because it's what he chose, just like it's obvious that when a squirrel grabs a nut, it made the decision to choose that nut.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13017247 - 08/07/10 01:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
phxBoomer said:
simply put...the universe is consciousness incarnate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WTF does this even mean?
That Awareness is aware of its awaritization. 
--------------------
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13017261 - 08/07/10 01:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
he being a set of complex chemical and physical processes which must follow cause and effect?
the only difference between a reflex and a decision is the feeling that this imaginary 'I' thing is controling the decision. If the 'I' is a construct of the brain, it comes from the same source as the reflex. The 'I' in this case is just a complicated reflex.
There has to be some kind of soul or something to have free will.
|
QiGong
Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 133
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017329 - 08/07/10 02:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
There has to be some kind of soul or something to have free will.
Riddle solved. /thread
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: QiGong]
#13017355 - 08/07/10 02:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Still not solved. If a Supreme Being tells you to 'be good or else', can one have free will under such extreme coercion?
--------------------
|
QiGong
Registered: 07/28/10
Posts: 133
|
|
Do you think only Christians have souls?
|
Salomon
ಠ︵ಠ balance ಠ_ಠ weaver ಠ‿ಠ
Registered: 01/17/09
Posts: 25,128
Loc: America, FUCK YEAH
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: QiGong]
#13017391 - 08/07/10 02:22 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
where exists the "soul"?
what is the "soul"?
is there any evidance that the "soul" exists?
--------------------
EVERYTHING EVENTUALLY BECOMES A DESERT
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#13017419 - 08/07/10 02:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I said soul 'or something'. that something has to be something other than the brain. well maybe not 'has to' but from all evidence its extremly likely.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017431 - 08/07/10 02:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
phxBoomer said:
simply put...the universe is consciousness incarnate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WTF does this even mean?
That Awareness is aware of its awaritization.
Whoa, far out, man! 
Quote:
Freedom said:
he being a set of complex chemical and physical processes which must follow cause and effect?
Basically, yes.
Quote:
Freedom said:
the only difference between a reflex and a decision is the feeling that this imaginary 'I' thing is controling the decision.
I don't think that's necessarily true, I think that both reflexes & decisions can involve an "I", and that they both can also not be involved with an "I".
Quote:
Freedom said:
If the 'I' is a construct of the brain, it comes from the same source as the reflex. The 'I' in this case is just a complicated reflex.
Pretty much, reflexes are just decisions that are made within a very small time-frame and with minimal aforethought, and decisions can be thought of as complicated systems of various reflexes that are made within a generous amount of time and with considerable aforethought.
Quote:
Freedom said:
There has to be some kind of soul or something to have free will.
I don't understand how a soul would be more capable of free will than a "soulless" human, might you explain to me how this works?
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13017478 - 08/07/10 02:41 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
well if the brain is just a reflex, there is no free will. The only way for there to be free will then is for there to be some kind of influence from outside the brain, an influence that had free will.
|
ModusPwnd
Stranger
Registered: 07/08/10
Posts: 508
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017496 - 08/07/10 02:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
What about a third option, the brain is not just a reflex and there need not be an influence from outside the brain.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13017503 - 08/07/10 02:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
its possible but all the evidence seems to point to it being a reflex
|
ModusPwnd
Stranger
Registered: 07/08/10
Posts: 508
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017518 - 08/07/10 02:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Evidence from chemistry and the like? Its an assumption that cause and effect run in one direction, but I agree its not a baseless assumption.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13017544 - 08/07/10 02:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
and the psychology seems to match up with the neuroscience very well. Learning is correlated with synaptic strengthening. The mind appears to be a huge association complex, the brain appears to be a huge association complex.
|
ModusPwnd
Stranger
Registered: 07/08/10
Posts: 508
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017552 - 08/07/10 02:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
And that is evidence that the brain is 'just a reflex'? I dont get it.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017589 - 08/07/10 03:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
well if the brain is just a reflex, there is no free will.
Well the brain isn't "just" a reflex, it's much more complicated than that; free will is a reaction/response to external stimuli, just like a reflex, they are fundamentally similar.
Quote:
Freedom said:
The only way for there to be free will then is for there to be some kind of influence from outside the brain, an influence that had free will.
I don't see the logic behind this.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13017636 - 08/07/10 03:13 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Well, you see Poid-brain, the soul also has no free-will and must be controlled by an ultra-soul. 
--------------------
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
|
So what controls the ultra-soul, the Mega-Super-Ultra Soul *Plus*? 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13017706 - 08/07/10 03:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Freedom said:
well if the brain is just a reflex, there is no free will.
Well the brain isn't "just" a reflex, it's much more complicated than that; free will is a reaction/response to external stimuli, just like a reflex, they are fundamentally similar.
well probably getting caught up in semantics, but I'm using reflex as an automatic reaction to stimulus. I'm not sure why its difficult to see the brain as mass collection of reactions/reflexes.
Quote:
Freedom said:
The only way for there to be free will then is for there to be some kind of influence from outside the brain, an influence that had free will.
I don't see the logic behind this.
well if the brain has no free will, and the brain is all there is, then there is no free will. But if something with free controls the brain, then there is free will. Its like a typewriter has no free will, but if you believe a person operating the typewriter has freewill, then there is free will.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13017710 - 08/07/10 03:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
How far we carry this depends on the level of boredom and inebriation of the participants. Of course, whoever posts the final ultra soul descriptor - wins!
--------------------
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017727 - 08/07/10 03:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Your typewriter has no free will?
But more importanly, who uses a typewriter?
--------------------
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
|
I don't have a typerwriter but my computer has free will, so I couldn't use that as an example 
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
|
A paradoxical bi-product of an electro-chemical network for collection/integration/application of information, and making use of this information to reduce it's probable/possible actions in order to best enable the organism within which it resides, to survive/reproduce. schpoople !!!
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13017924 - 08/07/10 04:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
well if the brain has no free will, and the brain is all there is, then there is no free will.
How exactly are you defining free will?
Quote:
Freedom said:
But if something with free controls the brain, then there is free will.
Well nothing controls the brain besides itself, it's a self-sustaining system.
Quote:
Freedom said:
Its like a typewriter has no free will, but if you believe a person operating the typewriter has freewill, then there is free will.
That analogy doesn't hold because the human brain is part of a human, but a human is not part of a typewriter--there is no free will involved for the typewriter when it is being used by a human that has free will, this is like saying an arrow I shoot with my bow shoots out on its own free will. 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 19 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Poid]
#13018077 - 08/07/10 04:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
Freedom said:
well if the brain has no free will, and the brain is all there is, then there is no free will.
How exactly are you defining free will?
One definition would be "A property belonging to an entity, whereby the entity has motivation independent of the external environment." I think this might be something like you are thinking because I think you said something about free will existing in a determined system.
I would say this is an incomplete description of free will, because it ignores the the question of how the entity and its motivation was created in the first place.
If the brain is purely a product of biology and the environment, and motivation is purely a product of the brain, then motivation is purely a product of biology and the environment. So we may choose, but we have no choice in what we choose because our decision making process is merely a consequence of a huge network of cells interacting with its environment.
Quote:
Freedom said:
But if something with free controls the brain, then there is free will.
Well nothing controls the brain besides itself, it's a self-sustaining system.
Quote:
Freedom said:
Its like a typewriter has no free will, but if you believe a person operating the typewriter has freewill, then there is free will.
That analogy doesn't hold because the human brain is part of a human, but a human is not part of a typewriter--there is no free will involved for the typewriter when it is being used by a human that has free will, this is like saying an arrow I shoot with my bow shoots out on its own free will.
its never worth trying to clarify a confusing analogy 
all I'm trying to say is that the brain is not sufficient for free will, but if something was added then its possible. For example when you have a reflex we can probably agree that there is no free will there. But if you choose to move your arm in the same exact pattern, you would be causing the motor neurons to fire in the same exact way but now might say we have free will, something has been added. Experimentally we can look and see that what's being added are inputs from the cortex, controlling the motor neurons. I'm arguing that these cortical neurons have no free will, but its possible, however unlikely, that there is an input that controls these neurons from another dimension or some crazy shit.
Edited by Freedom (08/07/10 04:58 PM)
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13018407 - 08/07/10 06:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Saying you have no free will is just a surreptitous way of putting yourself and life down, imo
Maybe we're influenced very strongly by our circumstances, but, for example, I can refuse to accept my circumstances and then try to change them, using none other than free will, or, I can throw a tantrum, and knock things about and swear at people. I have an obvious choice. There's some determinism, there's some free will. Dualistic thinking is the problem, what if we just called the organism and environment the organism-environment? Then there's nothing to be free of free will. There's just what's happening.
--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...
TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE
|
ModusPwnd
Stranger
Registered: 07/08/10
Posts: 508
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes]
#13018418 - 08/07/10 06:23 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Then there's nothing to be free of free will. There's just what's happening.
Looks to me like you dont believe in free will.
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: ModusPwnd]
#13018478 - 08/07/10 06:36 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I think the free part is the problem, We undeniably have a conscious will, but the degree to which it is free is subject external factors such as environment and internal factors like the subconscious. We could also say that people living today have a will that is liberated far in excess of the will of a fourth century Inuit. Free implies an infinity of choice, when it really isn't like that at all.
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Freedom]
#13018651 - 08/07/10 07:15 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Freedom said:
One definition would be "A property belonging to an entity, whereby the entity has motivation independent of the external environment." I think this might be something like you are thinking because I think you said something about free will existing in a determined system.
What do you mean by "has motivation independent of the external environment"? I said that free will is a function of the brain, which is a self-sustaining system.
Quote:
Freedom said:
If the brain is purely a product of biology and the environment, and motivation is purely a product of the brain, then motivation is purely a product of biology and the environment.
What else could it be a product of?
Quote:
Freedom said:
So we may choose, but we have no choice in what we choose because our decision making process is merely a consequence of a huge network of cells interacting with its environment.
That huge network of cells interacting with its environment is part of us, every interaction with our environment is a choice.
Quote:
Freedom said:
For example when you have a reflex we can probably agree that there is no free will there.
The term reflex is pretty ambiguous, but an example of one that resulted from free will would be turning your head when you hear your name being called.
Reflex - Wiki
Quote:
Processes such as breathing, digestion, and the maintenance of the heartbeat can also be regarded as reflex actions, according to some definitions of the term.
Quote:
Freedom said:
But if you choose to move your arm in the same exact pattern, you would be causing the motor neurons to fire in the same exact way but now might say we have free will, something has been added.
What's been added is the reflex arc, which is located in the spinal cord, and its involvement in mediating reflexes.
Quote:
Freedom said:
...an input that controls these neurons from another dimension or some crazy shit.
If this is how you're defining free will, then I agree with you that it doesn't exist.
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
|
circastes
Big Questions Small Head
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 8,781
Loc: straya
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Brainstem]
#13018842 - 08/07/10 08:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Brainstem said:
I think the free part is the problem, We undeniably have a conscious will, but the degree to which it is free is subject external factors such as environment and internal factors like the subconscious. We could also say that people living today have a will that is liberated far in excess of the will of a fourth century Inuit. Free implies an infinity of choice, when it really isn't like that at all.
Good post.
--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...
TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: circastes]
#13018875 - 08/07/10 08:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Sudden moment of clarity.  won't happen again
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Brainstem]
#13018892 - 08/07/10 08:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
It does go to illustrate something that I only learned on here in the last couple of days, and that is the words we use to describe a concept are important and if poorly matched can cause difficulty when exploring a concept in depth.
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Brainstem]
#13019517 - 08/07/10 10:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
I see free will as something like a set of railroad tracks. If you board a certain train, or get onto a certain rail path, much of what follows is pre-determined, or maybe all in a certain strange way, but really in many cases you did make the choice to board. Maybe it was determined, destiny if you will, to be at the station to begin with, but imo that somehow leads back to an earlier set of choices, even if much earlier, and you were hardly equipped at the time with what it would take to change the path. Perhaps one of the greatest challenges in life is fully discovering your own free will, even if you can't exactly move the steel rail
but
--------------------
MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
|
Beanz
Registered: 08/01/07
Posts: 668
Loc: dirty south
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Salomon]
#13019646 - 08/07/10 11:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Salomon said:
everything that has ever happened or will ever happen is pre determined based on previous actions. even this moment right now.
in a world in which every action is a reaction caused by an action caused by an action caused by an action, etc. there can be no free will.
for example, let us say that you have "chosen" to open this thread and read what i have just written. you entered the thread because you read the title because you entered this forum, because you entered the shroomery message board because you entered the main website, because you opened your internet provider, because you turned on your computer, etc.
you can trace every action you've ever performed to an action preceding it, all the way back to when your parents fornicated when the egg in your mother and the single sperm from your father were the genetic make up of you, this happened because it happened on that specific moment, and we can trace all of their action's causes back to when they were created by their parents, and so on.
we can use this concept of actions caused by preceding actions to trace every single action that has ever happened in the universe back to the creation of our universe, and indeed every universe. yes i am proposing that there are multiple universes, ours being governed by three dimensions. in other universes, with other dimensions, these dimensions are not used, but can be accessed, likewise in our universe.
equally, we can trace every organism on earth back to one common ancestor. now let us assume that in each universe there exists some form of life. what is the purpose of life? this question can be answered by using the principles of evolution and survival instincts. every organism in our universe started from one single organism, evolving into more and more organisms in an attempt to be the dominate "species" in the universe. why? because the goal of life is to become advanced enough to, at the end of the universe, travel through time, to create the beginning of all the universes. likewise this is the goal of all organisms in all universes. however, under predetermination, the organism that is to become the most advanced of all is already set. imagine each universe is a different version of each other, all developing at different rates, under different conditions. only one universe will contain the most advanced organism of all the universes. the other are equivalent to under evolved species. likewise with in all the universes, all but the one organism that is predetermined to "win the race" are under evolved.
at the end of the universe, when matter is sent through time, but not space, to before the universe has started, this is the cause of the universe. this would mean that when this event happens, every event that has ever happened will repeat in the exact same manor. indeed this event has happened an infinite amount of times and will occur an infinite amount of times. ever hear the phrase, "history repeats itself"? your life will, and has happened in the same way. this very moment has and will happen an infinite amount of times.
basically every other creature in existence, other than the one that creates the universe, is existing pointlessly, except for the influence of reactions that lead up to the end/ beginning.
there is no "god" as humans would believe, however there is an entity that will create the universe. although the universe will have had to exist before that entity does.
reality is a paradox
Im giving you a +5 for this awsome read
|
Brainstem
_@_y
Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 1,969
Loc: In my shell
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Beanz]
#13019733 - 08/07/10 11:23 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Take a look at my inception based thread, might explain my viewpoint and even give you something to fill out your ideas.
--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Sunny]
#13024889 - 08/09/10 01:40 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sunny said:
This debate appears to be heavily masturbatory, with the exception of Diploids well structured, and informed posts...
well, if someone could show the truth in the matter then it wouldn't be masturbatory, would it? i mean, can diploid really tell the truth? diploid, can you? can you stop this "senseless" bickering?
|
Sunny
free-ballin
Registered: 10/07/06
Posts: 12,350
Loc: on the magic bus
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: akira_akuma]
#13027984 - 08/09/10 05:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
wow lol, sort of a delayed response. I wasn't commenting on the bickering, I was commenting on how out of context it went and how quickly. Diploid was basically the only one on topic and raising valid points.
The rest of it seemed to be "Look at me, I should be in MENSA."
But that point is certainly a digression well off-topic as well.
--------------------
WAFFLEZZ!!!11!!!1!!!1!!!!
|
akira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ
Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 3 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: Sunny]
#13028787 - 08/09/10 08:36 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
oh ok... true indeed.
hahaha, look at me.
|
ibajem
Stranger
Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 64
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: akira_akuma]
#13029096 - 08/09/10 09:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
As long as we´re on the quantum scale of things: Entanglement. two particles are produced (or three, triplets are possible) which are connected in a way that has never been unraveled. in basic terms, what happens to one happens to the other, INSTANTLY. this could happen with one particle being here and another being somewhere in the orion belt; apparently in conflict with the notion that ¨nothing travels faster than the speed of light¨ (information would be doing just that).
Another one: on a sub particle level, the very act of observing an experiment has been shown to CHANGE the results of it. the particle/wave duality is praised in modern physics and apparently proven by the fact that (simplifying a lot here and limiting to only one experiment) if you dont watch the photon, it goes through 2 slits at one time. yes- one ¨particle¨ of energy goes through two slits. but if you moniter its ¨trajectory,¨ it chooses one of the slits and the other slit does not set off the trigger that shows it was penetrated.
a: relativity is wrong or misunderstood
b: quantum physics is not just only understandable to the degree of probabilistic tendencies, but also completely misinterpreted.
or
c: free will in the sense that the chemistry in our brains+all accumulated life experience does not indicate what thought will occur at a given moment is very real.
it´s been discussed for millenia and long before quantum physics, but i think it is worth noting that every philosophy worth noting seems to have been infered based on your motivation: ¨i have deduced the following hypothesis which in the event that my premises are true, are undeniably true.¨
this, in logic, is about as faleproof as universal truth gets, and pretty much is limited to Logic and Mathematics and nothing else, so not even ¨if i drop this rock, it will without a doubt fall to the floor¨ is a universal truth because it is an inference no matter how many times the apparent causality has been observed. on the other hand, 2 + 2 is equal to 4 always and forever. this is not to be confused with apparentmisconceptions such as
Premise 1: 1 divided by 3 is 0.33333...
Premise 2: 0.33333... multiplied by 3 is equal to 0,99999....
Conclusion: 1 is equal to 0.99999...
a brief study of mathematical analysis and limits will bring light to the reasoning behind this.
in conclusion, if all of your premises are correct, your theory is valid. you must not test the theory, but the premises
this can only be done statistically; one single failed experiment will dispose of the theory forever, and 99999999 succesful experiments will not prove it, ever.
all this being said, i still dont believe in free will
i really think chemical reactions starting from the atomic level are not random but quite orderly, because macro-atomic activity seems to be on our side of the physical universe although subatomic shit goes wack.
what am i saying? i think that if you knew where every single atom in the universe was at the ¨moment the universe was created,¨ you could easily determine where they would all be at any point or ¨in the end.¨ Of course i am assuming the universe had a beginning, i dont really care for the end of it so i wont be making an opinion on that one. but if this assumption were to be accurate, free will would be shattered.
this being my inclination, i am still 100% open to the possibility that free will is indeed a unique property of certain components of the universe, and would not be at all surprised if it were the case but would rather embrace the evidence for it with much enthusiasm. closed-mindedness is much worse than being incorrect
i believe nietche was a page ahead of me (and many others) on that one, something about convictions being worse than lies
as an artist (musician), i have bared witness to extraordinary fiets of creativity. i wouldn´t hesitate to believe that i have played alongside with beethovens, and that Genius is the true nature of the human being, albeit locked within the ape-like prejudice capsule. this is inexplicable to me- i have exceeded my potential in ways i never thought possible and instantly seperated myself from any ¨fame or recognition-destined¨ dreams, because of the power i truly feel there is something divine behind it
it should be noticed that only after cannabis was introduced to my life did i venture into composing and really just discarding 600 interesting pieces a year in search of the songs with the real musical me in it, which comes out WHEN IT WANTS TO, and pretty much turn my world and my views of it upside too. these are the ones i latch onto, these are my holy grail. anyway-
just rambling by unifying all my established prejudices into a concept i fathomed on the spot on this one, pretty much what i am saying is mistaken for free will. then again- how i got around to writing this out is as debatable as whether or not the next eminem i pull out of the bag will be yellow or red. so my opinion is my opinion, but my admiration for quality art and my search for the artistic formulae of many revolutionaries is my link to the other side of the argument, which enables me to be compeltely open to the possibility that i am wrong. and JUST as happy if it is the case. if not moreso.
my-2-cents
EDIT: lol at ¨eminem¨ instead of m&m
would have been completely distracting if i had said black or white instead yellow or red
Edited by ibajem (08/09/10 09:51 PM)
|
AdMech
Stranger
Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 98
Loc: Mars
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: ibajem]
#13029438 - 08/09/10 10:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
ibajem said:
apparently in conflict with the notion that ¨nothing travels faster than the speed of light¨ (information would be doing just that).
No, entanglement isn't in conflict with that principle. For one, the notion of "simultaneous" breaks down at large distances or accelerations. (The barn and the pole analogy is a helpful analogy for getting your head around reference frames.) But for less of a cop-out answer, here is a better read on the subject.
The important thing to realize is that when measuring, for instance, the spin states of quantum particles, you have no control over which one will come up. This means that anyone measuring the spin state of the particle entangled with yours will not be able to tell if you've measured or not, ruling that out as a way to send information. You have to compare observations to figure out if there was a state change.
Quote:
Another one: on a sub particle level, the very act of observing an experiment has been shown to CHANGE the results of it. the particle/wave duality is praised in modern physics and apparently proven by the fact that (simplifying a lot here and limiting to only one experiment) if you dont watch the photon, it goes through 2 slits at one time. yes- one ¨particle¨ of energy goes through two slits. but if you moniter its ¨trajectory,¨ it chooses one of the slits and the other slit does not set off the trigger that shows it was penetrated.
Mind-blowing stuff. :-) I don't believe in free will exactly, either; but apparently my earlier post was just "masturbatory". :p
--------------------
Lexmechanic
|
ibajem
Stranger
Registered: 07/25/10
Posts: 64
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: AdMech]
#13030082 - 08/10/10 01:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
AdMech said:
Quote:
ibajem said:
apparently in conflict with the notion that �nothing travels faster than the speed of light� (information would be doing just that).
No, entanglement isn't in conflict with that principle. For one, the notion of "simultaneous" breaks down at large distances or accelerations. (The barn and the pole analogy is a helpful analogy for getting your head around reference frames.) But for less of a cop-out answer, [url=http://everything2.com/title/Quantum entanglement and faster than light communication]here is a better read on the subject.[/url]
The important thing to realize is that when measuring, for instance, the spin states of quantum particles, you have no control over which one will come up. This means that anyone measuring the spin state of the particle entangled with yours will not be able to tell if you've measured or not, ruling that out as a way to send information. You have to compare observations to figure out if there was a state change.
Quote:
Another one: on a sub particle level, the very act of observing an experiment has been shown to CHANGE the results of it. the particle/wave duality is praised in modern physics and apparently proven by the fact that (simplifying a lot here and limiting to only one experiment) if you dont watch the photon, it goes through 2 slits at one time. yes- one �particle� of energy goes through two slits. but if you moniter its �trajectory,� it chooses one of the slits and the other slit does not set off the trigger that shows it was penetrated.
Mind-blowing stuff. :-) I don't believe in free will exactly, either; but apparently my earlier post was just "masturbatory". :p
youre right! i forgot how einstein debunked simulteinious events with his lightning thought experiment. i guess i thought i read that the entanglement manages to break the limits of relativity somehow. maybe it was more along the lines of being useful as a literally unbreakable code, i cant remember now. thanks for the correction
and on the double slit experiment, i totally remembered it backwards, i posted how it really works in the universe-observes-itself thread http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9877535/fpart/5 -the observation is supplied by the apparatus. the experiment explains the wave-particle duality in interesting method and then specifies that when conducted with 1 photon, the photon goes through both holes. something that is impossible according to any known laws of motion with one material object (particles included), and implies that it is impossible for this to occur unless there is a wave-particle duality involved- though never both at the same time. the properties (wave or particle) depend on the experiment/observer, that was how it works. helped me catch that mistake, thanks !
|
AdMech
Stranger
Registered: 08/01/10
Posts: 98
Loc: Mars
Last seen: 13 years, 5 months
|
Re: free will is an illusion [Re: ibajem]
#13032957 - 08/10/10 05:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
|
|
No problem! I myself didn't notice that your double-slit experiment was backwards, either. It sounded right to me!
--------------------
Lexmechanic
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Buy Bali Kratom Powder 
Autoflowering Cannabis Seeds 
APE Liquid Culture For Sale 
Buy Kratom Capsules 
Kratom Capsules for Sale 
Bridgetown Botanicals 
Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order
Edit 
Reply 
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
ZenGecko
Phluck
shroomydan
Joshua
silversoul7
Somaism