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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: Phred]
    #12937082 - 07/22/10 06:35 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A stateless society will not work until self-interest is no longer part of human nature.




You could say that about almost any society's dominant political ideology though. Self-interest aka corruption and profiteering run rampant and cause a lot of harm in modern capitalist democracies. I don't see how it's effect on an anarchist society would be much different. I mean some how putting a self interested crook in charge is supposed to make society "work," whatever the fuck that means. Sounds like a load of shit to me.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


Edited by ScavengerType (07/22/10 06:38 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12939324 - 07/23/10 04:18 AM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

You could say that about almost any society's dominant political ideology though. Self-interest aka corruption and profiteering run rampant and cause a lot of harm in modern capitalist democracies.




Most modern governments have checks and balances in place to regulate the system, preventing or drastically reducing corruption and profiteering within the government (and society).

Quote:

I don't see how it's effect on an anarchist society would be much different.




Because in a stateless society it is up to the individual not to take advantage of others.  There is no system in place to prevent, or constrain, profiteering.

Quote:

I mean some how putting a self interested crook in charge is supposed to make society "work," whatever the fuck that means.  Sounds like a load of shit to me.




If you really believe it is a load of shit, then you should go live in Somalia, as close to a stateless society as we are going to find, for a few years and let us know if you see a difference between there and living in the US.  Modern governments are far from perfect, but they are much better than nothing.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinespiritmonk
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: Seuss]
    #12941466 - 07/23/10 02:47 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

First off, I'm sorry to see you are having difficulty. I've been there and it is hell.

My understanding was that the Republicans were blocking unemployment benefits, not because they had no desire to extend them, rather the issue is where the money is coming from.

Consistently, time and time again regardless of the party, our future as a nation has been robbed because we are borrowing money/add to our debt and not paying for what we need with the funds that are available.

What the Dems wanted (and did) do was pass the benefit by utilizing debt, the Republicans wanted to use the stimulus funds that were available - and not add even more debt.

Frankly, a good idea.

The nation needs to wake up and start doing what is right, not what is easy... and, unfortunately, that will cause a lot of pain on all fronts.

Again, I wish you the best of luck.


--------------------
perception is reality


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: Seuss]
    #12945463 - 07/24/10 12:58 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Most modern governments have checks and balances in place to regulate the system, preventing or drastically reducing corruption and profiteering within the government (and society).




Really? Because when I study resource economics I've seen a recurring theme, a corporations moves into exploiting a previously protected resource by collusion with the government and sometimes with monetary compensation to some officials. Then something bad happens, and people who care about the resource have to draw enough public attention and outcry to get anything done about it.

However, I think it's presumptuous of you to declare that there would be no checks or balances in a stateless society. Simply that they would have to come from social machinery and not that of state.

Quote:

Quote:

I don't see how it's effect on an anarchist society would be much different.




Because in a stateless society it is up to the individual not to take advantage of others.  There is no system in place to prevent, or constrain, profiteering.




Yea I suppose working as a single individual would make it difficult, perhaps some sort of social structures where multiple individuals work towards common goals in ensuring that corruption and profiteering are not significant factors in social operation. Given that most current bodies in a lot of countries which do these things are already grossly corrupt, what is the worst thing that could happen?

Quote:


If you really believe it is a load of shit, then you should go live in Somalia, as close to a stateless society as we are going to find, for a few years and let us know if you see a difference between there and living in the US.  Modern governments are far from perfect, but they are much better than nothing.




Comparing Somalia to the US is an unfair comparison, the US is the most wealthy capitalist country in the world and Somalia is a country that has been embroiled in an almost two decade long civil war that has enveloped the country. When the US goes through two decades of civil war, then you can come back to the table with that comparison. There are many autonomous zones in the world and Somalia is not generally recognized to be one of them, probibly because the area is in fact run by the gangs who took power after the civil war and brutally so at that (so far as I can understand anyway).


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12957198 - 07/26/10 06:01 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

a stateless society will not work so long as we have people who wish to force THEIR will upon YOUR life without YOU wanting it....capitalism is not the solution for everything but it is the best way to allow people the most individual freedom and organize society


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: libertarian23]
    #12958054 - 07/26/10 08:20 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

How so, many people lack a lot of freedoms in capitalist societies?


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12958234 - 07/26/10 08:47 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

thats very very true...these societies are not freedom oriented...take america for example... a democratic society isn't a purely free society...the majority rules over the minority thru the popular vote...the less and less centrally planned a nation is in either the economy(ie regulation, laws protecting monopolies, anti-laissez faire legislation, laws to fix problems in the economy and then laws to fix the problems the laws created when they were trying to fix the economy the first time) or in social policy(ie gay rights, civil rights in general, the rights of people to their own bodies) the more individual freedom those people have...most societies that claim capitalism today are not capitalist nations but welfare nations with government supporting business in one way or another and we have seen how this creates booms and busts and booms and busts....farmers, housebuilders, developers, green technology, ethanol are just a few of the industries that have booms that either have or inevitably will bust because they are unsustainable fake values


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: libertarian23]
    #12958328 - 07/26/10 09:02 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

also scavenger the point you raised is a very good one in another aspect as well...my mother is economically liberal in the classical sense(meaning little government involvement), however her strong sense of religion makes her think that it is okay to inject those ideas into policy decisions by our leaders...i dont think that she would vote for someone who supports gay marriage, and i know she wouldn't support someone who would vote for drug legalisation...she would be a social conservative, like any other run of the mill republican...i started out my idealogical journey in high school, rebelling against my conservative parents and eating the whole marxist pie of ideology...i was a leftist and i thought that they were the way to freedom and then as i learned more, and heard more, i realized that these people just want to use the state to control and even everyone out...no rising stars outside of the political class; nothing...and then 9/11 happened and i swung way to the republican side of things and the way they inject religion into policy, and use patriotism like blind faith in god so long as its their guy in the white house(democrats do the same shit) pissed me off and i've pretty much found myself without a party to support...i love freedom--individual freedom...the more i have read on voluntaryism and capitalism i have realized that we haven't had pure capitalism in this country, ever.  Anarchism is spoken of poorly and it shouldn't be...anarchism is not chaos as many people think and many people use the word interjectively with chaos...much like liberals calling themselves liberals all the while doing everything they can to limit individual freedom....anarchism is merely the lack of a state...capitalism is the way a stateless society can best organise itself...you do what you want. so long as you dont hurt someone or infringe upon their property without permission its all golden


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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: libertarian23]
    #12964783 - 07/27/10 11:55 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Firstly on freedom: The way that property is arranged and managed in society (currently on permanent ownership and bequeathment usually heredity as default) is not the only or the most right way for property ownership to work. It does not affect personal freedom. Any system that enforces one manner of property ownership over another is forcing those values into people's lives. The same way your mom forces christian values into her political judgments. So even a strictly libertarian society forces a strange set of social values onto people and further I've never heard a single reasoned argument as to why the fuck corporations wouldn't be able to tie courts up and abuse such a system at a rate that makes present corruption look Utopian in comparison.

If you are to remove barriers to freedom you must then remove the barrier to prevent transgressions. Otherwise you will empower one style of transgressor and disenfranchise another while simultaneously disenfranchising the victims of the empowered transgressor. If you do not allow people to take from those who swindle them around the laws you are then protecting the monied class above the serfs. This is not freedom it's just another type of order.


--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Registered: 06/16/10
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Re: The Banana Republicans giving American workers the shaft by blocking unemployment benefits [Re: ScavengerType]
    #12968140 - 07/28/10 05:52 PM (9 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
Firstly on freedom: The way that property is arranged and managed in society (currently on permanent ownership and bequeathment usually heredity as default) is not the only or the most right way for property ownership to work. It does not affect personal freedom. Any system that enforces one manner of property ownership over another is forcing those values into people's lives.




what way is the right way for property ownership to work?  i dont understand this...if you work hard all your life, and gain lots of property(money included) to pass on to your kids and grandkids so that they might build upon that, whats so wrong about this way of property ownership?...and property ownership does affect personal freedom...if you dont have a right to your property whats the point in going out and making money to buy shit?  whats the alternative to this system? i seriously want to hear it.

Quote:

ScavengerType said:
If you are to remove barriers to freedom you must then remove the barrier to prevent transgressions. Otherwise you will empower one style of transgressor and disenfranchise another while simultaneously disenfranchising the victims of the empowered transgressor. If you do not allow people to take from those who swindle them around the laws you are then protecting the monied class above the serfs. This is not freedom it's just another type of order.




i dont understand this, why must you remove barriers to prevent transgressions?  you mean allow transgressions to take place?  what the fuck does that have to do with freedom?  you have your rights, but you dont have the right to trample someone else's rights...swindling someone out of their money(property) is theft so i do not understand your entire post here...and if you don't think that communism or socialism or any other structured government doesn't favor the monied class above the serfs your out of your mind


i have another question for everyone: when speaking of incentives for politicians, if a set of politicians gains power on being the champions of the poor, supporting all sorts of social welfare programs and such, what incentive do they actually have to help people escape poverty?  wouldn't that be the end of their power?


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