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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Killing and morality
#12899664 - 07/14/10 06:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Killing for a small group (The IRA, The Crips) is evil.
Killing for a large group (a government) is good and worthy of recognition (unless we are talking about Hitler's Germany.)
If you kill for your own reasons not aligned to a group, then you are insane and/or pure evil.
In summation, killing is moral if you have enough people backing you. Of course, if your large group lost; then you are as immoral as a small group, but never as immoral as an individual acting on his own.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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People are .
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Poid]
#12899695 - 07/14/10 07:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Also important to note is that killing brown people is not as bad as killing white people.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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What if I killed a Blues Brotha?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Poid]
#12899773 - 07/14/10 07:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Blue people are extra sacred.
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ModusPwnd
Stranger
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Killing is moral if it aligns with your own moral compass. Whats the issue?
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: ModusPwnd]
#12899800 - 07/14/10 07:24 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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The issue is mainstream society's moral compass regarding murder, and how it's retarded.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Poid]
#12899997 - 07/14/10 08:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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the conclusion is that people only pretend to know what they think or give a shit.
inside they are scared and don't know what to do and, oh shit there's always bad guys that want to destroy us and everything we stand for
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ModusPwnd
Stranger
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Poid]
#12900113 - 07/14/10 08:25 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: The issue is mainstream society's moral compass regarding murder, and how it's retarded.
Murder or killing? Those are very different things. In any case, I dont see it as retarded.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: ModusPwnd]
#12900156 - 07/14/10 08:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
ModusPwnd said:
Quote:
Poid said: The issue is mainstream society's moral compass regarding murder, and how it's retarded.
Murder or killing? Those are very different things. In any case, I dont see it as retarded.
The roman catholic translation of the bible says "though shall not kill", the other translations say "though shall not murder"
don't forget voluntary and involuntary maslaughter
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
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Loc: ohio
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: Also important to note is that killing brown people is not as bad as killing white people.
-------------------- Jesus loves you.
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
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Last seen: 1 day, 5 hours
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: andrewss]
#12900282 - 07/14/10 08:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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oh I remembered something, you all will like this vid, I promise
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Freedom]
#12900323 - 07/14/10 09:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Majoses
Homo sapiens sapiens
Registered: 10/20/09
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Freedom]
#12900328 - 07/14/10 09:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said: oh I remembered something, you all will like this vid, I promise
LMAO GENIUS
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Majoses]
#12900347 - 07/14/10 09:10 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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yeah that dude was a smart mofo
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Freedom]
#12902016 - 07/15/10 06:58 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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People are killers by nature. What separates us from the animals, however, is the desire to destroy or kill/ murder for our own pleasure and sense of power.
The powers that be, the elites, the controllers, make wars because it brings in profit. Profit is the greatest way to control a civilisation. Using debt etc etc holds people into this system, but with the belief that they are safe, cared for, nurtured and free from the brutal reality that other countries inflict on their people if a 'crime' is committed.
It is true, due to the media, that Western society's 'attacks' on other countries are regarded as 'Doing the right thing' because the media manipulates us with propaganda and what not. The same happens in other countries such as Russia, they use propaganda to attack neighboring countries, while hiding their real intent.
Countries will always do war and use the media to manipulate the majority of the people to believe that the war is 'good' for the safety of 'our' people. However, as we have seen, most countries do not support the War on Terror (notice the use of the word terror, not terrorism) yet the British and American governments still keep sending their troops over there to fight for the 'safety of our societies' when in actual fact they just want to dominate and control that country for more power and profit.
They will use war to do it and put profit above human lifes, why? Well that's easy, people die everyday, people are born everyday, so as long as this cycle continues, then profit and control can be had. Meaning the new generation of kids will be easily controlled when it comes to having 3 jobs just to earn £800 a month which will only pay for bills. Profit will constantly expand so long as the cycle of human life continues.
Free will was never alive, we have all been lead to believe we all poses it, lies.
EVERYTHING in this world from a fish to an electric power station can be connected. We, as animal and human, work in circles, NEVER straight lines, everything is connected, just as everything is recycled and reused. We are lead to believe we are on a straight line though. DO NOT believe it and give in to the powers.
"Think for yourselves, question authority" - Maynard James Keenan
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
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Mufungo
Coming at ya
Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said: If you kill for your own reasons not aligned to a group, then you are insane and/or pure evil.
...or justified to the extent the killing was done in "self-defence", or heroic when it's done to save another person(s) from someone else who is considered "bad".
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Ahimsa
µdose
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Since armies are legal we don't have the idea that they are wrong. We have been brainwashed. Killing is monstrous. The essence of killing is suffering and tragedy. Generals may give beautiful explanations of the need for war. Soldiers are made to forfeit their individual will and offer their own lives in the end. Media reports on killing and war are almost an addiction to the reporters and audiences alike. Morality has always been a cornerstone of human society, and the value of ethics remains whatever our believes or philosophies are. It is a basic human feeling and need for safety and love that should generate our morality and ethical behavior. Killing is what stands furthest from that goal!
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Budske
Smoke a blunt-eh?
Registered: 05/03/10
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Ahimsa]
#12902097 - 07/15/10 07:46 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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So what would have been your solution in WW2 if you were America right after pearl harbor?
Would you just attack the aggressor? Would you also defend the rights of others and attack a country that didnt directly attack you? or would you just decide to be an isolationist and ignore the problem?
Edited by Budske (07/15/10 07:50 AM)
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Ahimsa
µdose
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Budske]
#12902142 - 07/15/10 08:03 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ofcourse, there is a direct need to counter unjust aggression. WWII is an example where war and killing was entirely justified. The Nazi tyranny had to be overthrown. But that is just only highlighting the point that war is violence and killing is immoral. When there are powerful armies the chances are a dictatorship will arise. I too am opposing war and killing and seek no appeasement either. Only in hindsight is it possible to judge whether killing was based on moral grounds or not. Nevertheless, it is infinitely better to avoid wars and killing then to go into war whereby the outcome is never certain!
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NortonStPhallus
Registered: 08/25/09
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12902408 - 07/15/10 10:00 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Morality is about consensusQuote:
Zanwolf said: People are killers by nature. What separates us from the animals, however, is the desire to destroy or kill/ murder for our own pleasure and sense of power.
The powers that be, the elites, the controllers, make wars because it brings in profit. Profit is the greatest way to control a civilisation. Using debt etc etc holds people into this system, but with the belief that they are safe, cared for, nurtured and free from the brutal reality that other countries inflict on their people if a 'crime' is committed.
It is true, due to the media, that Western society's 'attacks' on other countries are regarded as 'Doing the right thing' because the media manipulates us with propaganda and what not. The same happens in other countries such as Russia, they use propaganda to attack neighboring countries, while hiding their real intent.
Countries will always do war and use the media to manipulate the majority of the people to believe that the war is 'good' for the safety of 'our' people. However, as we have seen, most countries do not support the War on Terror (notice the use of the word terror, not terrorism) yet the British and American governments still keep sending their troops over there to fight for the 'safety of our societies' when in actual fact they just want to dominate and control that country for more power and profit.
They will use war to do it and put profit above human lifes, why? Well that's easy, people die everyday, people are born everyday, so as long as this cycle continues, then profit and control can be had. Meaning the new generation of kids will be easily controlled when it comes to having 3 jobs just to earn £800 a month which will only pay for bills. Profit will constantly expand so long as the cycle of human life continues.
Free will was never alive, we have all been lead to believe we all poses it, lies.
EVERYTHING in this world from a fish to an electric power station can be connected. We, as animal and human, work in circles, NEVER straight lines, everything is connected, just as everything is recycled and reused. We are lead to believe we are on a straight line though. DO NOT believe it and give in to the powers.
"Think for yourselves, question authority" - Maynard James Keenan
You cant tell me that this is a result of a social construct rather than a biological imperative, as a matter of fact we wouldn't even have social constructs if the desire for control was not a biological imperative which, incidentally, is found throughout nature, not just in man. Morality is all about consensus, and ultimately arbitrary by nature. Were I to follow your advice, I would be submitting not to the powers that be but to YOUR power, and if enough people did this you would have a society on your hands, built around your ideals, but ultimately restricted by its adherence to a moral code.
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
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It is biological that we strive for control, but when you put other people's lives in the way with disregard to the intellectual construct of the human mind, then it is selfish, and quite frankly, silly.
I wasn't trying to state my views, I was basically stating something which is factual in essence.
You just need to open your eyes a little more to see how everything is connected and realise what is going on. You already have given into the powers that be, not me, and I do not intend people to follow me. Everyone should think for themselves and do what they feel is best.
Countries could quite simply get a long and be harmonious with one another, but they are not because at the core of government is the need for power, which is brought upon by profit, and profit controls people which the leader of that country will use at his advantage to not seem weak. Therefore wars WILL happen because the president/ prime minister will stay strong in that countries' public view. There are plenty of ways which the human race can get along fine within their political construct, of course people will branch off and rebel etc so the peace would need to be kept. That is probably what the NWO is trying to do.
Everything is connected, from psychology to politics and those that know this use it. It's simple and you can see it everywhere if you just open your eyes and mind and stop following everyone else's views. Not saying that you do, but speaking openly to everyone here, not just directed towards yourself.
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
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NortonStPhallus
Registered: 08/25/09
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12906071 - 07/16/10 07:47 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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How can I think for myself if everything is connected? My opinions and values would inevitably be influenced by the people around me. "everyone should think for themselves" how can you use the word should and not be making a moral judgement, implying there is a right way and a wrong way to behave, what about when people think for themselves and decide that they want to control people?
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
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I never said anything about morality, and I am not the sort of person to say who is good and who is evil, everyone makes choices, I have my own views on what is good and what is bad, as do you, some we would not agree on, some we would, but that is what makes us human. What I said about putting profit before human lives was because of the fact that it is silly, putting something so materialistic before something with consciousness. Absurd (I know, people do it all the time, even when money isn't concerned).
I don't think you fully understanding the depth at what I am saying, you have narrowed it down so much that you don't seem to be able to see my words clearly in an open minded fashion.
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
Edited by Zanwolf (07/16/10 03:11 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12907982 - 07/16/10 03:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I don't think you fully understanding the depth at what I am saying, you have narrowed it down so much that you don't seem to be able to see my words clearly in an open minded fashion.
This is the standard disclaimer for many folk here when someone disagrees with their pov.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Icelander]
#12908066 - 07/16/10 04:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's true though, and I don't mind the fact that s/he is disagreeing, but to me it seems as though he, or she, doesn't understand what I am trying to get across.
People will always disagree with someone else's pov, and I have no problem with that fact.
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12908229 - 07/16/10 04:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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whatever
Countries could quite simply get a long and be harmonious with one another, but they are not because at the core of government is the need for power, which is brought upon by profit, and profit controls people which the leader of that country will use at his advantage to not seem weak.
Do you really believe this? People by their nature only get along when they perceive advantage in doing so. Govt's are not some separate monster doing things to us. Govt is the polished mirror that reflects our true face.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Icelander]
#12908300 - 07/16/10 05:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Govt is the polished mirror that reflects our true face.
Diffracting telescope is the answer.
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
Registered: 08/04/09
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Icelander]
#12908367 - 07/16/10 05:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: whatever
Countries could quite simply get a long and be harmonious with one another, but they are not because at the core of government is the need for power, which is brought upon by profit, and profit controls people which the leader of that country will use at his advantage to not seem weak.
Do you really believe this? People by their nature only get along when they perceive advantage in doing so. Govt's are not some separate monster doing things to us. Govt is the polished mirror that reflects our true face.
Hmm...by nature, really, you believe that? Then tell me why, by nature, hunter-gathering tribes do what is best for their community, not for themselves? In our selfish western societies, by nature, we do what is best for ourselves, because that is the way in which we have grown up and perceived other human beings acting in that way. Great example to live your life by, becoming another selfish being, I mean, we do need more selfish people in this world, right?
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
Edited by Zanwolf (07/16/10 05:37 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12908460 - 07/16/10 05:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes I really believe that and have read a lot on early cultures of hunter gatherers. What is good for them is good for their community. They see themselves all as one. Small groups can do this but large cultures have never pulled this one off.
The problem with modern culture is not that we want what is good for ourselves, it's that we really don't know what is good for us. What is good for us really benefits everyone if you look at it in the long run. Which hardly anyone does. That's one reason why the elderly are so often filled with regret.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Icelander]
#12908569 - 07/16/10 06:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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What are you thoughts on why people in today's societies think that way though? What has changed us so much over the course of human evolution that we become more and more self-orientated.
For instance, the need to be successful, you go about it by being quite ruthless, not caring about anyone else who is after that same position or 'thing', holding in high demand YOUR need to get to the top, not anyone else's. Talking from a business perspective it doesn't benefit those who wanted to go after the same position, it just benefits the company.
It interests me where the pivotal point within us humans stop caring for our communities as a whole and started going after the success game. Where was the turning point in history. It seems as though it just happened.
I agree with you on numbers though, the larger a place, the less care people have of those who they've never met. How many people in today's societies would risk their life for a complete stranger if they knew it would save them, probably about 1 in 10 people I guess.
But certain elements within our society influence our thinking, a thought we thought was our own, was or could have been planted their by 'alien' elements.
What are your thoughts?
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Posts: 45,441
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12908701 - 07/16/10 06:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
What has changed us so much over the course of human evolution that we become more and more self-orientated.
What critter on this planet is NOT self-oriented?
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
Registered: 08/04/09
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Wolves, ants, bees, just to name a few.
EDIT: I didn't mean self-orientated in the sense of being orientated by being. I meant it in a selfish context.
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
Edited by Zanwolf (07/16/10 07:08 PM)
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NortonStPhallus
Registered: 08/25/09
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12910772 - 07/17/10 08:39 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I focused on certain points of your argument because they were the ones I had an objection with, not because I didnt understand your overarching idea.
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NortonStPhallus
Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 760
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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"I never said anything about morality" you said should, how can you say the word should without implying that there is a right way and a wrong way = morality.
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
Registered: 08/04/09
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Quote:
NortonStPhallus said: "I never said anything about morality" you said should, how can you say the word should without implying that there is a right way and a wrong way = morality.
Read it again, I did not say should. I quoted Maynard from Tool, here it is again for you. "Think for yourselves, question authority"
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
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NortonStPhallus
Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 760
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12911203 - 07/17/10 11:22 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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You said, "everyone should think for themselves and question authority" This statement implies that to think for yourself/question authority is the good thing to do, please explain to me how that has nothing to do with morality.
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ModusPwnd
Stranger
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
What has changed us so much over the course of human evolution that we become more and more self-orientated.
What critter on this planet is NOT self-oriented?
The extinct ones.
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NortonStPhallus
Registered: 08/25/09
Posts: 760
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf] 1
#12911233 - 07/17/10 11:31 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zanwolf said:
Quote:
NortonStPhallus said: "I never said anything about morality" you said should, how can you say the word should without implying that there is a right way and a wrong way = morality.
Read it again, I did not say should. I quoted Maynard from Tool, here it is again for you. "Think for yourselves, question authority"
On a side note, dont you see the irony in quoting someone that is telling you to think for yourself and question authority?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
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Quote:
On a side note, dont you see the irony in quoting someone that is telling you to think for yourself and question authority?
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Budske
Smoke a blunt-eh?
Registered: 05/03/10
Posts: 123
Last seen: 12 years, 1 month
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Freedom
Pigment of your imagination
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 6,016
Last seen: 1 day, 5 hours
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Budske]
#12912132 - 07/17/10 03:26 PM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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even worse, he's quoting someone who's quoting someone who said that
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Zanwolf
Dream Walker
Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 157
Loc: United Kingdom
Last seen: 10 years, 4 months
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Freedom]
#12914295 - 07/18/10 04:11 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think you fail to see the bigger picture of the irony in this thread, but I shan't tell you that because, quite frankly, I think your narrow minded stubbiness won't understand it. In fact, I believe it would obfuscate you.
On another note. I never hinted at the use of the word should and I neither typed it. You have just placed the word should there by your own speculation, which is wrong. I could have used the words we, could, do and a whole host of others.
-------------------- "In the land of the blind, the man with one eye is key" This is a force of nature, just like lightning, the righteous face it every day and pass it by, but those with evil in their hearts fear it, that is why there is no need to fear it. Just leave them to face death and they will perish.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Killing and morality [Re: Zanwolf]
#12914419 - 07/18/10 06:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago) |
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Go away now.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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