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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
WHO wants war?
    #1288939 - 02/07/03 01:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Does anyone of you want war? I do not want war, even Saddam doea not wants war. So, it seems that people do not want war. But, who actually wants the war? Is that somebody actually the real enemy of the human kind? I think, YES.

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Crobih]
    #1289006 - 02/07/03 01:30 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Saddam just doesn't want war with us. He was very content to wage war on his own people and those in surrounding countries.

I am for war, and if that means that YOU THINK I am an enemy of man, so be it. Remember, the enemy of man saved the world from a crazed German tyrant.

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289048 - 02/07/03 01:47 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Well, that ennemy of man was late during both world wars.
I still do not understand why you would actually want a war in there.
Don't you know there are other possibilities than war?

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: MushMushi]
    #1289058 - 02/07/03 01:52 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yes, like sanctions. Clearly economic sanctions have forced Saddam to disarm. He just must have forgotten to videotape the destruction of his chemical weapons.

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289063 - 02/07/03 01:54 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You must also like to see milions of innocent iraqi die because of these sanctions too.

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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
Posts: 2,015
Loc: cave
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: MushMushi]
    #1289064 - 02/07/03 01:54 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

sure. among other stuff, the war can not fight the idea that the oligarchy is not competent any more for ruling the world.

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: MushMushi]
    #1289076 - 02/07/03 01:57 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Hmmm millions eh? Did we kill millions of civilians in the first war?

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289120 - 02/07/03 02:15 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

No but we killed plenty of Iraqis who likely didnt even want to fight for Saddam.

And we will likely do it again. Wonderful.

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289191 - 02/07/03 02:44 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

What's going stonedfish?  Haven't you enlisted yet, like you said you would?

Or is there a new military policy allowing recruits in basic training to spend hours everyday on internet drug sites? :tongue: 

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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 17 years, 22 days
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289206 - 02/07/03 02:52 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

.I am for war, and if that means that YOU THINK I am an enemy of man, so be it. Remember, the enemy of man saved the world from a crazed German tyrant.




Why do people keep comparing this situation to the one during world war 2!
I know,stonedfish, that is not precisely what you are doing. I am not attacking you personally, but I think that any comparison at all is erroneous. Saddam is not a fraction of the threat that Hitler was. Any claim that he is, is propaganda at its best!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: sirreal]
    #1289397 - 02/07/03 04:09 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

A tyrant with genocidal tendencies in power, willing to use chemical weapons on his own people. He has invaded neighboring countries and openly praises attacks on the allies. Who could I be talking about?

You are right, this is not at all like WWII. Saddam isn't white.

BTW, Echo: I enlisted last November and ship off to boot camp in June.

Edited by stonedfish (02/07/03 04:10 PM)

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InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Crobih]
    #1289525 - 02/07/03 05:15 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)



The majority wants war.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing

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OfflineDogomush
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Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289704 - 02/07/03 06:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

A tyrant with genocidal tendencies in power, willing to use chemical weapons on his own people. He has invaded neighboring countries and openly praises attacks on the allies. Who could I be talking about?


The difference is that hitler was the head of a powerful country.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289718 - 02/07/03 06:54 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

A tyrant with genocidal tendencies in power, willing to use chemical weapons on his own people. He has invaded neighboring countries and openly praises attacks on the allies. Who could I be talking about?

Do you actually believe this shit? When Saddam was using chemical weapons on Iran and Halabja the US was desperate to sell him more. This isn't about freeing the world from a tyrant or they would have done it then instead of supporting and arming him.

And comparing him to Hitler is moronic. Hitler was at the head of the most powerful army ever assembled and invaded half of Europe. Saddam rules a country where 700,000 kids under 5 have died in the last 10 years from lack of basic medicine and clean water. His army is about as dangerous as the Hare Krishnas.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisibleangryshroom
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Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289762 - 02/07/03 07:10 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, I think we should bomb them because they aren't allowed to have bombs, and to show that having bombs and using them is bad.. Yeah, that sounds pretty good to me.

Its like the death penalty. Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is bad?

I think war is the answer to everything... I mean, its been the answer all the other wars... People get happy to go to war. Lets fight for peace everyone.. yay, yay yay..........!!!!!!!!!

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Offlinehongomon
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289765 - 02/07/03 07:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

A tyrant with genocidal tendencies in power

Sadly, the world has known plenty of these. Are they all Hitlers now?

willing to use chemical weapons on his own people

It's not clear what happened to the Kurds when Iraq and Iran were at war. Both sides were using chemical warfare. see this if you haven't noticed the various links we've had here already.

And if Saddam--and does anyone doubt that he is a murderous tyrant?--would be willing to do that, that would only put him in a semi-elite group of murderous, genocidal despots the world has seen. Remember that Hitler was marching all over Europe. Hussein didn't even get through Iran, and Iraq was squashed after it invaded Kuwait. There's just no comparison.

He has invaded neighboring countries and openly praises attacks on the allies.

Just a few months before Iraq invaded Kuwait, the U.S. invaded Panama. The U.S. and Britain backed Iraq in its war against Iran.

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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Crobih]
    #1289890 - 02/07/03 08:12 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I don't see how anyone could actually want war.  We are such intelligent beings.  We should be able to find ways to work things out other than killing innocent people. 

War is nothing but unjustified justified murder.  One would have to be inhuman to actually want such a thing as war.  It just doesn't make sense to me how you could want so many members of your own race to die for some cause that I don't think anyone really fully comprehends.

I have a big sign taped to my window that says "No War!"  I think the majority of people in the United States today, except for the inhuman ones, that is, are like me in that they are against the war.  But I guess what the majority wants doesn't really matter in this "democratic" country anymore.

If it did matter, Al Gore would be president and I don't think we would be in a situation like we are now at all.  That is just assumptive speculation, though.

The bottom line is that anybody who actually wants war is not human, in my opinion.  We are smarter than that.  And if our leaders are not smarter than that, which it seems like they aren't, then we need to do something to wisen them up!

This country is not just a group of politicians.  This country is the citizens who live in it, and we, as the majority, should have the say in what this country does and does not do.  I feel that we are lacking this authority very much, and need to take it back.

Protest, people, protest!  Rebel!  Revolt!

Fight for what you think is right!

And don't think that you can't do anything because when a lot of "yous" get together, a whole hell of a lot can be accomplished!

So many people have an ominous feeling of late, but I have a hopeful one.  I feel that some really good things are going to be happening in our country soon.  A lot of changes are coming, and I can't wait til they get here! :smile:

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.

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Offlineinsanelane
When I touch mypeepee it getsbig
Registered: 11/21/02
Posts: 284
Last seen: 20 years, 1 day
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #1289903 - 02/07/03 08:21 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

exactly. I understand that in the very worst situations, you just have to go to war. This deffinelty isn't one of them. The whole Hitler thing was an imminent threat, there was a very REALY threat of nations being dominated. The whole U.S thing is getting predictable really, like they force a country into disarming, say they are going to go to war, and keep asking for more proof, like christ it's like locking a starcing child in a closet with no food and water, hitting him with a bat a little bit, then tell him if he doesn't "fess up" there gonna make a big guy beat him up, and the big guy pretty much says he's gonna beat the kid up regardless.

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OfflineCrobih
rap-cord
Registered: 11/03/98
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: insanelane]
    #1290131 - 02/07/03 11:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Sure. I mean, the fact that oligarchy is using propaganda to get what they want (war), does not mean that american people actually want war. Its the media, not the people. Big difference. Maybe you "righties" are not aware of it, but soon you will be.

Croaita sign up some document giving support to bush. But it is not the people of Croatia Who are not attacked by propaganda in that way. Actually 85% of people in Croa are strictily AGAINST the war. So, that means that croatian govetnement does not REPRESENT its people thoughts, but somebody others INTERESTS.

These interests are npot the interests of american people, but of somebody else. Are you aware of that? Are you aware that the real enemy of the human kind is not some shitty saddam, but somebody wo owns media in USA and more than half of the rest of the world.

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1290241 - 02/08/03 04:37 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Germany was all but ruined by WWI. They didn't start out powerful at all.

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Offlinezeronio
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1290249 - 02/08/03 04:39 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The majority wants war.




I just read about Gallup poll in Hungary (which is said to support war). 85% of Hungarians oppose war in Iraq.

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1290260 - 02/08/03 04:45 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah that's true. Hitler rallied his people behind him and then built a huge army in defiance of the rest of the world and then trampled everybody for a few years.

I guess Saddam is doing the same right now. The people of Iraq have united behind their beloved leader, and now he's defying the modern version of the treaty of versailles (sanctions) by making a huge army (I should point out that Kuwait, with a population a tenth of Iraq has larger military expenditures than Iraq), and then he'll run everyone down. You should read that speech I posted in the other thread that you stopped posting in after I proved your points wrong. It talks about Iraqis and Americans are the only people in the world who fear Saddam. Sure everybody hates him but they all know that he's militarily impotent due to his starving population and various sanction-wrought damage.

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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1290279 - 02/08/03 04:50 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

The U.S. is closer to the Weimar Republic than most people would care to admit... if we're going to compare countries to pre-WWII Germany.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: zeronio]
    #1290281 - 02/08/03 04:51 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I just read about Gallup poll in Hungary (which is said to support war). 85% of Hungarians oppose war in Iraq.

In my thread "iraq really a threat? Maybe not." There are all kinds of polls put forth in a speech by noam chomsky (which I link to) that shows Canada, poland, denmark, france, germany, great britain, czechoslovakia, spain, portugal, Italy, and more are opposed to war. Noam claims that opposition to this war has hit an historical precedent.

He has a good point about how when Vietnam started there were no visible protests, but nowadays we protest all over the place before a war starts, let alone after it's been going on forever and we're watching thousands upon thousands die. When the original Bush came into power the CIA gave him a little talk explaining the situation in the world (as they do every new president) and in it they explained to him how nowadays, when the US government invades a country they have to do it cleanly and quickly or public opinion will rapidly shift against it. Pretty telling little bit there.

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1290783 - 02/08/03 09:24 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

BTW, Echo: I enlisted last November and ship off to boot camp in June.

Too bad all the juicy blood-letting will be over by then. No combat medals for you!

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1290836 - 02/08/03 09:55 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, it's actually too bad they recognize this.  If they're going to push us into war, we can only hope it backfires on them.  I know that sounds sadistic, but I sometimes fear it will take quite a few body bags coming home to truly kick our apathetic asses in gear.

I saw a documentary about the "kill boxes" in the first war against Iraq.  Each squadron of fighters/bombers had their own block of a certain amount of miles square, and they just bombed the fuck out of them day after day.  It was a long time before any troops actually went into "combat."  The film mentioned that the war was a good chance to get rid of all the old bombs, dating back to the Vietnam war.

I figure that's what we'll do again.  A damn good thing those aren't  really  humans over there... :frown:   

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1290870 - 02/08/03 10:14 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I'm merely pointing out that there are many similarities between Iraq and Nazi Germany, enough to make a comparison.

Also, I don't recall you proving me wrong in any other thread... could you provide a link so I can reply?

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1290895 - 02/08/03 10:33 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Stonedfish, I hope you get a chance to listen to the Vidal interview DeeNae posted. He goes into the Hitler-Hussein comparison. And what are your thoughts on Evolving's suggestion that a better comparison to Nazi Germany could be right here at home?

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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/10/99
Posts: 11,394
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Last seen: 6 months, 24 days
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1292530 - 02/09/03 04:37 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

"I'm merely pointing out that there are many similarities between Iraq and Nazi Germany, enough to make a comparison."

Yeah, and there's enough similarities to make a comparison between the US and Nazi germany, and I'm pretty sure I've seen you berate people for making that comparison. Why? It's a childish comparison to make, no matter which side you're supporting.

The reason Germany isn't involving itself is that it already learned about attacking other countries without provocation.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: hongomon]
    #1292557 - 02/09/03 04:51 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

America doesn't hold mass executions of its own people. We're not trying to take over the world, despite what you may think. Even with the PATRIOT Act, American censorship and invasion of privacy still falls far short of that in Nazi Germany and Iraq.

Some people just want to compare us to Germany because we're so powerful, or because they don't like how Bush got into office.

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OfflineCrobih
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1292673 - 02/09/03 05:50 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

You think that because you do not think. two steps in advance. because, if you could think two steps in advance, you would realise that US governement actually murdered those people from the wtc.

The time has come when even most stupid and pussylike idiot can eliminate 1 000 000 with no problem,. America has no power to fight that idea. So the time has come to stop dominate the world. Cause you will suck your ass. That was the message from the wtc. And I know that pretty soon you will realise it too. I mean, you as a person who supports war.

If you wanna stay clean, you gotta realise that you can not shit arounde with no concequences. Cause if you give the legimacy for this action, you are the one who is responsible for the retaliation. I do not want to be responsible for that.

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OfflineDr. Slavic
enthusiast
Registered: 10/06/02
Posts: 252
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Crobih]
    #1292829 - 02/09/03 06:52 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

America doen't exactly take over the world . But we do take over countries, declare them independent, set up our own style government(In most cases), and control everything That can help us in that area.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Dr. Slavic]
    #1292882 - 02/09/03 07:12 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

America wants to take over the world while making it look like we're merely "liberating" people in other countries from their "tyrannical" governments by setting up our own "democratic" puppet governments.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Crobih]
    #1292937 - 02/09/03 07:31 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

you would realise that US governement actually murdered those people from the wtc.



Now that's just stupid. Really stupid.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Crobih]
    #1292985 - 02/09/03 07:51 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Wow dude. Are you in a contest with Alex to post the stupidest replies?

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1293254 - 02/09/03 09:38 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

America doesn't hold mass executions of its own people. We're not trying to take over the world, despite what you may think.





You are RIGHT. US doesn't hold mass executions of its own people, but it did that in the past, in other countries (not its own people).
And yes, USA has a "control" over many countries.
When it's not violent, then it's economical.

Boy, you are really annoying.


Edited by MushMushi (02/09/03 09:38 AM)

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: MushMushi]
    #1293266 - 02/09/03 09:41 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Give me some examples of us holding mass executions.

And while you're at it, show me some proof that we control other countries. Even if we have complete economic control over another country, it's because that country chooses to manufacture goods we and we alone need, not because we invaded them, enslaved them, and make them produce American flag pens.

If you want me to cease being "annoying," you're going to have to come up with more concrete arguments.

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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1293291 - 02/09/03 09:53 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Ever heard of Pinochet?
Ever heard of Latin America? and banana republics?
Have you forgotten how many regimes did USA back up in these countries?
Ever heard of Death Squadrons?

Quote:


And while you're at it, show me some proof that we control other countries. Even if we have complete economic control over another country, it's because that country chooses to manufacture goods we and we alone need, not because we invaded them, enslaved them, and make them produce American flag pens.





You see, today, with the help of the IMF and the World Bank, it's quite easy to "dictate" where money should be invested in poor countries.
For example, in some african countries, money that should have been gone in education, went into roads, roads near future mines. Guess who'll make profits?
US, and other rich european countries following the example of usa.
It seems that you actually never heard of NEO-colonialism.

Do you think the guy working for Dole will make money or have a DECENT living?
Enslaving people to money is much more easier than to turn them into real slaves.

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Anonymous

Re: WHO wants war? [Re: MushMushi]
    #1293379 - 02/09/03 10:23 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Hmm. Listing places and catch phrases are we? And yet, something's missing... could it be the numbers of people whom we supposidly executed?

And as for economic controls, you seem to think that controlling a country is the same thing as not investing in its well-being. Let me get this straight. You expect the United States to pour its money into third world countries even if we have nothing to gain?

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Offlinehongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 20 years, 1 month
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Anonymous]
    #1293386 - 02/09/03 10:25 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with Phluck--the Hitler debate has gone on long enough. But the very fact that it was brought up in the first place where Iraq is concerned is just an example of propaganda at work.

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OfflineEarth_Droid
Stranger
Registered: 04/19/02
Posts: 5,240
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Crobih]
    #1293397 - 02/09/03 10:31 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

When I was growing up it seemed like war was a thing of the past or a thing that was distant and far away. Obviously that is a big load of crap, so let me get this straight. Suddam does not want war with us, so why the hell are we getting involved. Apparently Canada where I live has to join in the war to help U.S. because we are apart of United Kingdom or some bull crap. Well I don't want to be a part of anything, I am the country of myself, Ryan and I happened to be place where I am.

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OfflineSkikid16
fungus fan

Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Earth_Droid]
    #1293495 - 02/09/03 11:17 AM (21 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Well I don't want to be a part of anything, I am the country of myself, Ryan and I happened to be place where I am.



Well, country of ryan, looks like you cannot take advantage of Canada's roads or its health care, and if I murder you, who will prosecute me?


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04

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OfflineCrobih
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Registered: 11/03/98
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Re: WHO wants war? [Re: Dr. Slavic]
    #5772042 - 06/20/06 10:44 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Dr. Slavic said:
America doen't exactly take over the world . But we do take over countries, declare them independent, set up our own style government(In most cases), and control everything That can help us in that area.




Are you sure this process helps you? You have a bunch of angry people all over the world. Some of them are even ready to make some big mess due to injustice being done to them.

Do you think that you as an American need this crap? You think you need to control everybody to realise your own prosperity? You need to be a God of the Earth to be happy? This is some voodoo shit logic to me.

I do not think you need to control everylittle thing if you want to gain prosperity. Actually, this mission is impossible to be accomplished. We are humans, we have to live and accept this.

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