|
 Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
 Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. 
#1287988 - 02/07/03 07:04 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hey, I came across a long and excellent speech delivered by Noam Chomsky a few days ago. It's a really interesting read, and anyone interested in the state of the world should check it out. He brings up some really solid points. Here's an excerpt:
"When a new administration comes into office, it receives a review of the world situation compiled by the intelligence agencies. It is secret; we learn about these things many years later. But when Bush #1 came into office in 1989, a small part of the review was leaked, a passage concerned with ?cases where the U.S. confronts much weaker enemies? ? the only kind one would think of fighting. Intelligence analysts advised that in conflicts with ?much weaker enemies? the U.S. must win ?decisively and rapidly,? or popular support will collapse. It?s not like the 1960s, when the population would tolerate a murderous and destructive war for years without visible protest. That?s no longer true. The activist movements of the past 40 years have had a significant civilizing effect. By now, the only way to attack a much weaker enemy is to construct a huge propaganda offensive depicting it as about to commit genocide, maybe even a threat to our very survival, then to celebrate a miraculous victory over the awesome foe, while chanting praises to the courageous leaders who came to the rescue just in time.
That is the current scenario in Iraq.
Polls reveal more support for the planned war in the U.S. than elsewhere, but the numbers are misleading. It is important to bear in mind that the US is the only country outside Iraq where Saddam Hussein is not only reviled but also feared. There is a flood of lurid propaganda warning that if we do not stop him today he will destroy us tomorrow. The next evidence of his weapons of mass destruction may be a ?mushroom cloud,? so National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice announced in September ? presumably over New York. No one in Iraq?s neighborhood seems overly concerned, much as they may hate the murderous tyrant. Perhaps that is because they know that as a result of the sanctions ?the vast majority of the country?s population has been on a semi-starvation diet for years,? as the World Health Organization reported, and that Iraq is one of the weakest states in the region: its economy and military expenditures are a fraction of Kuwait?s, which has 10% of Iraq?s population, and much farther below others nearby."
And then it continues into a review of the propaganda designed to convince Americans that Iraq is actually a threat. Cool stuff check it out
Edit: forgot link: article
Edited by Dogomush (02/07/03 07:19 AM)
|
Azmodeus
Seeker
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 18 years, 10 months
|
 Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1288006 - 02/07/03 07:10 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Sounds interesting...Link?
--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.
Lest we forget. "
|
Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Azmodeus]
#1288027 - 02/07/03 07:20 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
whoops forgot link!
|
 MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1288190 - 02/07/03 08:41 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Excellent article by Noam Chomsky 
|
angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
|
 Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1288411 - 02/07/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Interesting article.
Quote:
Polls reveal more support for the planned war in the U.S. than elsewhere
Funny, I wasn't polled on this question about supporting the war, nor any of my friends or family... Hmmm.
|
Learyfan
It's the psychedelic movement!
Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 33,990
Loc: High pride!
Last seen: 5 hours, 51 minutes
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1288808 - 02/07/03 12:17 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
--------------------
--------------------------------
Mp3 of the month: The Assortment - Bless Our Hippy Home
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: angryshroom]
#1288891 - 02/07/03 12:52 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Funny how I wasn't either, or any of my pro-war friends.
|
MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1288963 - 02/07/03 01:19 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Funny that you are only a minority of people who actually think that way.
Does it have anything to do with ignorance on this issue ?
Who knows... 
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
#1288997 - 02/07/03 01:27 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Please explain how I'm ignorant of this issue. And while you're at it, show me some figures saying that the majority of the world is against this war. Oh that's right... no one even has the capacity to poll the entire globe. Just because some countries in the UN are all out anti-US doesn't mean shit.
|
MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1289052 - 02/07/03 01:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Ohh, I forgot that the Great Britain counts for all countries in the world.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
#1289054 - 02/07/03 01:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I see we have a new Alex on the block.
|
MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1289068 - 02/07/03 01:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You guessed right.
My first name is Alex.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
#1289096 - 02/07/03 02:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Read the post again. I don't know how you got the impression that I think Great Britain is the whole world.
There are other countries backing us, such as Spain and Denmark. Now again, show my some worldwide polls showing that the majority of people are against the war.
|
MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1289117 - 02/07/03 02:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I think these countries might have an interest in the war.
I was talking about the Great Britain because, usually, they always agree with usa.
|
Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1289357 - 02/07/03 03:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
There are other countries backing us, such as Spain and Denmark. Now again, show my some worldwide polls showing that the majority of people are against the war.
Here you go man, read the article I linked to. I cut out the statistics that you asked for:
"A few days ago a poll in Canada found that over 1/3 of the population regard the U.S. as the greatest threat to world peace."
"A poll without careful controls, by Time magazine, found that over 80% of respondents in Europe regarded the U.S. as the greatest threat to world peace, compared with less than 10% for Iraq or North Korea. Even if these numbers are wrong by some substantial factor, they are dramatic. "
"Opposition to the war is completely without historical precedent. In Europe it is so high that Secretary of ?Defense? Donald Rumsfeld dismissed Germany and France as just the ?old Europe,? plainly of no concern because of their disobedience. The ?vast numbers of other countries in Europe [are] with the United States,? he assured foreign journalists. These vast numbers are the ?new Europe,? symbolized by Italy?s Berlusconi, soon to visit the White House, praying that he will be invited to be the third of the ?three B?s?: Bush-Blair-Berlusconi ? assuming that he can stay out of jail. Italy is on board, the White House tells us. It is apparently not a problem that over 80% of the public is opposed to the war, according to recent polls. That just shows that the people of Italy also belong to the ?old Europe,? and can be sent to the ashcan of history along with France and Germany, and others who do not know their place. "
"Spain is hailed as another prominent member of the new Europe -- with 75% totally opposed to the war, according to an international Gallup poll."
"pretty much the same is true of the most hopeful part of the new Europe, the former Communist countries that are counted on (quite openly) to serve U.S. interests and undermine Europe?s despised social market and welfare states. He reports that in Czechoslovakia, 2/3 of the population oppose participation in a war, while in Poland only ? would support a war even if the UN inspectors ?prove that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction.? The Polish press reports 37% approval in this case, still extremely low, at the heart of the ?new Europe.?
New Europe soon identified itself in an open letter in the Wall Street Journal: along with Italy, Spain, Poland and Czechoslovakia ? the leaders, that is, not the people ? it includes Denmark (with popular opinion on the war about the same as Germany, therefore ?old Europe?), Portugal (53% opposed to war under any circumstances, 96% opposed to war by the U.S. and its allies unilaterally), Britain (40% opposed to war under any circumstances, 90% opposed to war by the U.S. and its allies unilaterally), and Hungary (no figures available).
In brief, the exciting ?new Europe? consists of some leaders who are willing to defy their populations.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1289378 - 02/07/03 04:00 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So you have proven (through very questionable resources) that most of the Western European people are against us. That hardly proves that I am in the minority throught to world. Unless you mean to say Western Europe is the only part of the globe that matters?
And it really doesn't matter what the people think. They elect officials to deal with situations like this, because the masses have little or no interest in politics and would rather someone else deal with the field. I guess America is the only country that has elected a leader with whom it agrees.
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
 Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1289385 - 02/07/03 04:03 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I guess America is the only country that has elected a leader with whom it agrees.
Actually, the Supreme Court elected him.
--------------------
 
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: silversoul7]
#1289415 - 02/07/03 04:15 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The Supreme Court is part of the American government and thus part of America. Surely the majority of Americans would be very pissed off if a presient they didn't want in office was "appointed" to the presidency. There didn't seem to be much of an uproar except from the extreme Democrats.
|
Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1289445 - 02/07/03 04:30 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So you have proven (through very questionable resources) that most of the Western European people are against us.
I would actually consider Noam Chomsky to be an excellent source for accurate polls. He's the kind of guy who understands what makes a poll bogus or accurate.
That hardly proves that I am in the minority throught to world. Unless you mean to say Western Europe is the only part of the globe that matters?
No, I wouldn't say that western europe is the only part of the globe that matters. I would point out that Canada, Czechoslovakia and a number of other countries in the poll aren't from western europe. I'd also suggest you read the article in the Pub forum about Nelson mandela's stance on war. If you would read the speech this thread is about you'd find some other countries included in the statistics.
Also, I don't forsee many countries other than european and north american ones contributing to the war effort, so maybe these are the only regions that really do matter. You can bet Nicaragua is opposed to the war, but it really doesn't matter because they aren't going to be committing troops. If a country with 80% of the population opposed to war starts killing people in the middle east there's something definetly wrong with that.
And it really doesn't matter what the people think. They elect officials to deal with situations like this, because the masses have little or no interest in politics and would rather someone else deal with the field.
Strange point.. If the masses have "little or no interest in politics" then how can they be trusted to elect competent officials? I know I don't vote for people to think for me. I vote for people to represent me. What this situation shows is that it can be hard to know whether or not a politician will represent the population until he's elected and the country tries him out.
Anyway gotta go,
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1290263 - 02/08/03 04:47 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You go to GNN, I go to NewsMax. Both are extremely biased (former to the left, latter to the right) and therefore should be used with caution. Quoting sites like this is sure to spread misleading information, and won't help to convince the opposition.
As for going to war, most of the information and evidence has been presented for and against it. Saddam is a tyrant who should be taken out, but we wouldn't be bothering with Iraq if it weren't for the oil. I guess you could say oil is just the icing on the cake of death
I believe we're right to go to war, and so does most of America. That means we're going to war, despite everyone's protest. Frankly, Europe has given us so much shit since WWII that we have stopped caring what they think. Maybe France's opinion would mean something to Bush if France weren't openly anti-US since DeGalle, protesting our help reconstructing Europe.
Edited by stonedfish (02/08/03 04:52 AM)
|
Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1290313 - 02/08/03 05:11 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You go to GNN, I go to NewsMax. Both are extremely biased (former to the left, latter to the right) and therefore should be used with caution. Quoting sites like this is sure to spread misleading information, and won't help to convince the opposition.
I'm quoting a speech unnafiliated with GNN by Noam Chomsky that was reported on by GNN. I agree that there's a lot of bias to be found there but I see no reason to doubt that Noam's sources are solid. His statistics come from mainstream gallup polls, Time magazine, and a few other sources he mentions in his speech. I don't think it's healthy to just brush it off as "unreliable."
As for going to war, most of the information and evidence has been presented for and against it. Saddam is a tyrant who should be taken out
I agree that it would be nice if he'd vanish. However it would have been nice if the USA didn't establish him in the first place. It's for reasons like this that I believe the UN needs to approve of the war and be involved if it happens. After establishing so many horrible tyrants in the interest of having a malleable pro-american leader over the years I have no faith that America is capable of bringing countries like Iraq out of the gutter with a shining healthy democracy. I'm sorry but the USA is notorious for doing the exact opposite.
Frankly, Europe has given us so much shit since WWII that we have stopped caring what they think. Maybe France's opinion would mean something to Bush if France weren't openly anti-US since DeGalle, protesting our help reconstructing Europe.
hehe yeah I bet Bush knows who DeGalle is (sarcasm). What you seem to be saying here is that these countries are disobediant so we don't care what they think. If they were pro american then you'd listen but because so much (dare I say ALL) of europe is opposed to this war their opinion doesn't matter. This is typically why people don't like the USA. The US has no ability to self-reflect and consider that they just might be wrong, which is a very bad characteristic to have in a leader in any situation. The USA is the strongest counrty on the planet and it behaves like a selfish unruly child.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1290440 - 02/08/03 06:26 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, we shouldn't have helped Saddam in the first place, but what's done is done. Now we want to reverse a mistake we made and some of Europe is saying that we shouldn't.
And Europe has been against us from the beginning of our existence, they have proven to be relentless critics, no matter what. Take the really annoying kid in school who never misses a chance to show off what he knows, however little. Eventually, you're fed so much bullshit that you stop listening. We've stop listening to most of Europe and the UN because of all the shit they give us. Do you really expect the United States to take an alliance, who has kick us off their human rights commission and leave countries such as Libya and China on, seriously?
|
hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1290595 - 02/08/03 07:54 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Now we want to reverse a mistake we made and some of Europe is saying that we shouldn't.
I'm all for ending the ugly cycle of making mistakes/reversing them with others/reversing those with still others/and on and on.
For one thing, every war situation we're in further centralizes power to the federal government, a government which serves I don't know whose interests.
If that's not a good enough reason, well there are others.
|
Angry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting
Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: hongomon]
#1290773 - 02/08/03 09:20 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
We've stop listening to most of Europe and the UN because of all the shit they give us.
Once again, this is why they do not like us. Arrogance. We are the world's current "super-power". When super-powers become powerful enough, they become ignorant of outside concerns. Sadly, this has been the course of history. Rise, fall, rise, fall, rise, fall. It never stops.
I believe that a super-power starting a PRE-EMPTIVE attack is a horrible way for us to act while being looked upon by so many countries. War will only continue the above stated cycle. What happened to compassion? I think we packed that in the bomb we sent to Hiroshima. Kinda hard to find now.
--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato
|
Anonymous
|
|
>When super-powers become powerful enough, they become ignorant of outside concerns.
Rather they become the reciever of relentless critizism. And I hardly think ignoring a constant shit-talker is arrogance.
|
Angry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting
Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1291066 - 02/08/03 12:28 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Rather they become the reciever of relentless critizism.
As well they should. All eyes are on them, they are the model establishment of the world.
--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01 
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: silversoul7]
#1292293 - 02/08/03 11:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Actually, the Supreme Court elected him.
Merely repeating this over and over will not make it true. The Supreme Court would not let the rules be changed in the middle of the game. They did not elect/select Bush. The Gore/Dem/Florida Supreme Court team tried to change the rules but were not allowed to.Bush won by the rules.
Don't like the rules? Work to change them.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
Anonymous
|
|
Constructive critizism is one thing. Vicious attacks on our way of life is another.
|
MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1293334 - 02/09/03 10:04 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Way of life?
Ohh, because AMERICANS have a right to EXPLOIT all ressources on this Earth?
Let me tell you something, your way of life is simply egoist and wrong.
I guess when we'll have destroyed most of nature, then we'll start thinking about this issue.
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
#1293369 - 02/09/03 10:18 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Hmm I was unaware that we exploit all resources on this planet. We must drink to much water, use too much sand for glass, and make too much maple syrup from those poor defenseless trees.
You state your opinions quite enthusiastically, but back them up with little other than insults.
Quote:
I guess when we'll have destroyed most of nature, then we'll start thinking about this issue.
Sounds too me like Canada is helping as well. Unless of course you a referring to the "royal we" meaning the United States - after all, we are the only country who uses fossil fuel, cuts down trees, builds dams, etc.
|
hongomon
old hand
Registered: 04/14/02
Posts: 910
Loc: comin' at ya
Last seen: 19 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
#1293447 - 02/09/03 10:55 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
MushiMushi I agree with you that our lack of restraint in how much energy/resources we use up is at the heart of the problem. But stonedfish has a point that we're not exactly alone in that. I have plenty of friends from Canada and they'll be the first to say that they live pretty much the same lifestyle as we do here.
I suppose we're just riding a wave as far as it will take us.
|
MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: hongomon]
#1293479 - 02/09/03 11:13 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I live in Canada
I should have said NORTH-AMERICAN way of life.
Canada is almost another american state.
|
angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1293743 - 02/09/03 01:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Just wondering, but are you serious when you said:
Hmm I was unaware that we exploit all resources on this planet. We must drink to much water, use too much sand for glass, and make too much maple syrup from those poor defenseless trees.
Im not too good with sarcasam on the boards..but, heh.
You really think we dont have any problems with our natural resources? If so, I'll explain in great detail why you might want to think otherwise!
|
Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: angryshroom]
#1294102 - 02/09/03 04:14 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
200 years ago:
"Ooooh yeaaaaaahhh suuuuuure as if you could EVER hunt an ENTIRE species to extinction."
Today:
"OOooooh yeaaaaaaah suuuuuure as if we will EVER use up ALL the fresh water on the planet."
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: angryshroom]
#1294282 - 02/09/03 05:14 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
My point was that, while we do tend to harm the environment more than other countries, we don't try to outright destroy our planet.
I'm arguing more against Mushi's broad generalizations and lack of any common sense than I am against the fact that America pollutes too much.
|
GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
#1294720 - 02/09/03 08:10 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You admit there is a problem with over pollution in the world. America is the biggest polluter in the world but you wont admit America over pollutes??
--------------------
Always Smi2le
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1294792 - 02/09/03 09:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
America is the biggest polluter in the world
Back that up please.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1294812 - 02/09/03 09:23 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
with a 10 second search I came up with this.
BBC link
--------------------
Always Smi2le
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1294818 - 02/09/03 09:31 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Lets try something more than another Kyoto rant please. Even one of the more left leaning individuals here switched his view on Kyoto.
And not just carbon emissions. And that article is factually incorrect. Most of the major industrialised countries did NOT sign the accord although several did.
Add in industrial pollution and I believe the Soviets/Russians have spewed far more pollution than the US.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1294826 - 02/09/03 09:44 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The part I thought was relevant was
Quote:
As the world's biggest polluter, no real dent in global warming can be made without the US.
The US contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions. By comparison, Britain emits 3% - about the same as India which has 15 times as many people.
Can you provide some links to refute me? 
--------------------
Always Smi2le
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1294829 - 02/09/03 09:50 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The US contains 4% of the world's population but produces about 25% of all carbon dioxide emissions.
That line is why I asked you to not limit it to carbon emissions. The carbon emissons are not being questioned. If you had said in your post that the US is the largest carbon emitter in the world I would not have questioned you, and possibly would have said yes, followed by China which is expected to become the largest in several years.
Saying the largest polluter is the US doesn't seem correct if all forms of pollution are included. THAT is what I asked.
Now.... back up your statement or modify it. Doesn't matter to me what you choose.
If you're right, I'd like to know.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1294838 - 02/09/03 10:03 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I'll modify my posistion then
Still a pretty poor show though wouldnt you agree?
--------------------
Always Smi2le
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1294846 - 02/09/03 10:09 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
In an ideal world, there would be no pollution. We are not there yet. The carbon emissions are the result of the US being what it is. A large prospourous country with a great land mass. As a result we have more cars, trucks, planes and powerplants. With this unfortunately, comes carbon emissions. This will change in time.
I personally am more concerned by chemical pollution. Carbon will go away as we learn better methods of pollution control. Chemical pollution is a far more serious problem as some chemicals just don't go away or take too long to measure.
Thanks for not sticking to an undefendable position. That's more than many here do.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1294850 - 02/09/03 10:14 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Do you agree the process to more sustainable energy/ industrial methods is being slowed by those with a financial interest in the old forms of energy and production? Obviously, I dont mean only in the US. It happens the world over IMO.
--------------------
Always Smi2le
|
G a n j a
Pictish and proud
Registered: 12/03/02
Posts: 7,860
Loc: Zone ate
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1294900 - 02/09/03 11:18 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Well america is putting a lot into hydrogen fuel cells,but i think this is just in case there oil supplys from under the sand become radio active 
--------------------
er
|
MushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: G a n j a]
#1295092 - 02/10/03 02:34 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
It seems that some people never heard about the dangers of overconsumption.
Now, this doesn't only touch Americans, true.
But, the American life style is comparable to the life style of a pig.
From http://www.newdream.org/thedream/index.html
"America consumes 40% of the world's gasoline and more paper, steel, aluminum, energy, water, and meat per capita than any other society on the planet.
The average American produces twice as much garbage as the average European.
Recent scientific estimates indicate that at least four additional planets would be needed if each of the planet's 6 billion inhabitants consumed at the level of the average American. "
I don't know about any other planets that look like Earth in our solar system.
From that website again
"The "more is better" approach to life widens the growing gap between the "haves" and "have-nots." Globally, the 20 percent of the world's people in the highest-income countries account for 86 percent of the total private consumption expenditures, the poorest 20 percent a minuscule 1.3 percent. Conspicuous consumption is especially debilitating for low-income families in a culture that measures self-worth on these terms."
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1295235 - 02/10/03 03:35 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I personally am more concerned by chemical pollution
And american companies arn't the biggest chemical polluters in the world? Dow chemical ring any bells?
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Dogomush
Barbless Aryan
Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1295740 - 02/10/03 06:32 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
On the subject of chemicals I saw a really good documentary on agent orange the other day. It's going to remain in the vietnam soil for another 400-500 years, and children will continue being born with severe defects for many generations to come. On another anti-american note, there are tons of land mines in vietnam, and the US army won't explain how to dissassemble them because they are still making and using the same kind today. Shitty buzz eh?
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1296205 - 02/10/03 09:26 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Do you agree the process to more sustainable energy/ industrial methods is being slowed by those with a financial interest in the old forms of energy and production?
I believe some are happy with the current system, and some are looking for better ways but the technology is too insufficiently developed to be the complete answer.
------------------------
Edit: just found this, it seems not everyone agrees the US has the highest carbon emissions...
Rank Country Tons of Carbon per person
1 Qatar 20.05
2 United Arab Emirates 10.36
3 Kuwait 8.69
4 Guam 7.76
5 Bahrain 7.66
6 Singapore 7.04
7 United States 6.04
8 Luxembourg 5.69
9 Brunei 5.28
10 Australia 5.19
http://www.aneki.com/polluted.html
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (02/10/03 09:35 AM)
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1296227 - 02/10/03 09:31 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
And american companies arn't the biggest chemical polluters in the world?
No Alpo, I don't believe they are.
The former USSR, the current Russia stands out in my mind.
Poland, and many other "eastern block" countries are next. And it wouldn't surprise me if the Chinese are third.
------------------------------------
Edit: from the same site as above.... cleanest countries.......
Rank Country
1 Finland
2 Norway
3 Canada
4 Sweden
5 Switzerland
6 New Zealand
7 Australia
8 Austria
9 Iceland
10 Denmark
11 United States
12 Netherlands
13 France
14 Uruguay
15 Germany
16 United Kingdom
17 Ireland
18 Slovak Republic
19 Argentina
20 Chad
http://www.aneki.com/cleanest.html
I'm not familiar with this site so I have no idea how accurate the list is.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
Edited by luvdemshrooms (02/10/03 09:43 AM)
|
MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1296273 - 02/10/03 09:45 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
There are quite a number of American owned companies in countries throughout the world who are huge contributors to chemical pollution. Hello Monsanto
Also America produces more than 20 times the amount of hazardous waste of it's nearest competitor, Germany.("Stupid White Men", Michael Moore)
Let's also spare a thought for the monetary waste of the US. How about assing the "Star Wars" project and giving the planet clean drinking water.
--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
|
GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1296283 - 02/10/03 09:47 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Having given this a little thought from an environmental angle, its not really important whether the US are No #1 in the polluting stakes. The fact that they are definitely near the top is the problem. With all the resources at their disposal they could be leading the way in cleaner energies etc and providing an example to other countries but they most definitely are not doing that!
The list is interesting though I am a little surprised China dont make the top ten. The rest of the countries arent really comparable to the US either are they?They are all small countries with weak economies in comparison to the US.
--------------------
Always Smi2le
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1296292 - 02/10/03 09:48 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Poland
Nah luv. I'd need more evidence before i could take this seriously. Big american companies like Dow and Dupont dwarf anything being done in Poland. Same thing with russia and china. Dow recently merged with the nightmarish union carbide who'se chemical pollution has killed more indians than Custer.
Cleanest countries isn't really relevant. American companies usually prefer dumping their toxic shit in third world places where they can buy off governments.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1296377 - 02/10/03 10:16 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Alpo, someday you'll realize the the US isn't the worst place on the planet. I doubt you'll admit it though because then you'd have to realize all that hate is for nothing.
I've been searching for a list but am having trouble finding one. I am currently on the W.H.O. site and doing a search for "most polluted countries" brings many results but no mention of the US.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushyMay]
#1296382 - 02/10/03 10:17 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Also America produces more than 20 times the amount of hazardous waste of it's nearest competitor, Germany.("
Since Moore has been shown to "slant" the facts to make a point, can you provide another source for that figure?
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1296393 - 02/10/03 10:20 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Well change won't happen overnight. But it will happen. (IMO)
I was surprised by China's absence from the list as well.
Quote:
The rest of the countries arent really comparable to the US either are they?
The ranking is by amount per person, so yes, it's a valid comparison.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: GazzBut]
#1296437 - 02/10/03 10:36 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Right on.
The US is home to more millionaires and billionaires than any other country. They seem quite happy to show off the fact that they are the most powerful nation in the world. It would be nice if they decided to become the smartest nation in the world. Maybe they could even use some of the money they waste on the military on making the world a better place for everybody to live. You know, even setting a good example for the rest of the world would be nice. Practice what they preach.
--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
|
MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1296446 - 02/10/03 10:40 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I knew someone would pick on Moore as a reference. That's why I mentioned it. Sorry luv, I don't have another reference. It's obvious that Moore tends to embelish the truth, but even if he does, he brings up some serious issues about the state of the states.
Any reference I bring up will be rebutted by someone who doesn't agree.
What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.
--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushyMay]
#1296458 - 02/10/03 10:57 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
It's obvious that Moore tends to embelish the truth
Then why use figures provided by someone you know to be less than honest?
Quote:
Any reference I bring up will be rebutted by someone who doesn't agree.
Still, if you're going to post a stat as fact, they should be reliable. And many make for interesting reading.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1296760 - 02/10/03 12:35 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I didn't intend for that statistic to be taken as gospel. I let known the source so anyone who didn't agree would know where it came from. Any statistic is just that, a statistic, and most "reliable" sources can be disputed. There's always someone who will say "well I wasn't in that survey" or "I've never heard of (Moore, Chomsky, etc.)"
Moore might be regarded as less than honest but at least I cited my source. I'm not just making up information. People like to avoid issues by questioning information sources as if there is some ultimate truth that will prove or disprove a point beyond doubt. I think that quite often people get caught up in facts and figures and end up arguing about them rather than the topic of conversation. I don't profess to be right all the time and I thought that the Moore statistic (however fallible) was "interesting reading" and appropriate to the topic.
Last point, I am glad that there are people like you out there who can hold a conversation and use rational arguements rather than succumbing to personal attacks.
--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
|
luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
Loc: Lost In Space
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushyMay]
#1296775 - 02/10/03 12:39 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Last point, I am glad that there are people like you out there who can hold a conversation and use rational arguements rather than succumbing to personal attacks.
Methinks you give me more credit than I deserve, but I'm working on it.
--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers
|
Skikid16
fungus fan
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1297164 - 02/10/03 02:38 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Methinks you give me more credit than I deserve, but I'm working on it.
Damn man, you beat me to it. Heheh, just kidding, kinda.
--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1297214 - 02/10/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
daaaamn al. you think that the u.s. is dirtier than poland? and other eastern bloc and ex-soviets? al... i agree with you on some things... (more often your opinions than the "facts" you tout around) i'm often astounded at how thick-headed you can be. just out of curiosity, have you ever travelled abroad?
|
Anonymous
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1297261 - 02/10/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
i come in here many times with the same ideas as you. the reason that my visits to these forums are so enlightening and productive is because there are guys like LDS who can make solid arguments and bring a little moderation to my leftist ways. this thread alone sheds alot of light for me on what's going on with pollution in the world. i learn alot from coming here and reading, and i can't help but think how useless my trips to this forum would be if i had as stubborn a mind as yours. approach things with a more open mind...
so many times... i think to my self... "what the fuck are those conservatives thinking?", "how are there so many of them?", "can there really be so many idiots running around?... nah...there's got to be SOMETHING to their side... but what is it?"... and i come hear and read the posts of intelligent people who lean to the right... and i learn oh so much. try it sometime.
Edited by mushmaster (02/10/03 03:01 PM)
|
silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
|
 Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: ]
#1297285 - 02/10/03 03:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I totally relate to what you're saying. It just doesn't pay to have a closed mind. For one thing, visiting this forum has softened my stance on gun control(but not enough to make want to actually get a gun).
--------------------
"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
|
angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1297348 - 02/10/03 03:25 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I don't think this should be an argument on who pollutes more, because there are a wide spectrum of ways a country could pollute.
America is one of the largest polluting countries in the world mainly because it is so rich. We live a life where it's much easier/cheaper to throw something away than to reuse it. People work long hours at jobs, which are usually not beneficial to their happiness. Instead of going out for a hike, camping, and letting go with a nice outdoor adventure or vacation, we will buy things to make us happy. The money which is made from working all day long is our reward and we go buy our vacation on a jet plane somewhere else, or buy something that was packaged 400 times and made inexpensively and most likely caused pollution to make...
Americans are completely ignorant to the fact that our environment is going to shit. The two top selling cars in the United States are the Ford F-Series and Chevy Silverado. Driving 4x4 cars that are completely not needed on our brand new paved asphalt roads, which took millions of gallons of oil to produce. Most Americans live in a city, where they cannot see the destruction that man has caused. You should be able to see from the city itself, but in other areas as well, it is pretty bad. Farms have turned to deserts, forests turned to wasteland, beaches have turned to tar-land...
It's unfortunately too late to save the environment. Before it gets better, it's going to get worse. The people who do not understand what is going on now will not understand until they see it up close and personal.
Just make note on how many things you throw away in a day. How many plastic bags you take from the grocery store, how much water you use, how much soap, and products you put down the drain, how many disposable things you use in a day, how much you drive, how many packages we buy. Everything is packaged...
I think slight changes are needed right now for everyone, then the larger aspects of life that can only be changed at a governmental standpoint will be changed in later years...I hope. Things really need to be seriously looked at NOW however, and I don't think Bush's main concern right now is the environment, and how efficiency in factories and creating less by-products will actually help the economy in the future.
Edited by angryshroom (02/10/03 03:26 PM)
|
MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: ]
#1297417 - 02/10/03 03:50 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Well put mushmaster. Opposing views often complement each other in provoking thought. At least around here there are quite a few people who don't take it personally when someone has a different opinion.
Without the yin there can be no yang.
(I'm glad my upbringing was enlightened by the wisdom of the narrator of "MONKEY")
--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
|
Meat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck
Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
#1297428 - 02/10/03 03:53 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You guys can say what you want about the war I'm really neither for or against. I do know a few things about Saddam though. Hes a ruthless dictator who used chemical weapons on his own people. He called on his troops to invade a small country called Kuwait because they were producing about 50000 barrels more a day than Saddam wanted them to. His army slaughtered 5000 Kuwaities. He has literally tons of of chemical and biological agents. He wont let inspectors talk to his scientists, some of them evidentaly committed suicide or are on extended trips to other countries (loosely translated murdered). He also used chemical weapons against Iran. Another little know fact is he was a major cause of the US redesigning the their currency. He lets most of his people live like rats while he on the other hand he has 18 palaces that would make Bill Gates house look like a lean-to. He gave 20,000 US dollars to Palistinian families whos sons or daughters would blow themselves up killing at least one Israeli. These are a few facts about our great dictator Saddam Hussien. Say what you want about the guy but hes a peice of shit with alot of freakin power. The only thing he has going for him is his brain washed ass military who get paid about 10xs what the average Iraqi gets paid. His army is still the 4th largest in the world. Say what you want about the man but me I would honestly rather see him dead than alive. He is an ecological terrorist. I dont think we should bomb the fudge nuts outta Baghdad but I think someone should feed him and only him a hot steaming tank shell. Its just my opinion. Oh and to all you screaming liberals that this war is only about oil your fucking retards. We could have had all the oil we would ever need in 1991, and we dont get any oil from Iraq anyway. Iraq doesnt have one ten the oil that Alaska or Kuwait or Russia has. Lates alls.
|
MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
#1297524 - 02/10/03 04:37 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Are we really gonna start this again? We were having such a nice conversation.
I do know a few things about Bush though. Hes a ruthless dictator whose country used chemical weapons on it's own people. He called on his troops to invade a small country. His army slaughtered. He has literally tons of of chemical and biological agents. These are a few facts about our great dictator. Say what you want about the guy but hes a peice of shit with alot of freakin power. The only thing he has going for him is his brain washed ass military who get paid. Say what you want about the man but me I would honestly rather see him dead than alive. He is an ecological terrorist. I dont think we should bomb the fudge nuts outta Baghdad but I think someone should feed him and only him a hot steaming tank shell.
That was too easy. And I didn't even have to bring up any new facts. Hmmm...
I'd love to hear more about the redesigning of US currency though.
[I couldn't help myself, sorry if I have offended anyone. It's just an opinion]
--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
|
Skikid16
fungus fan
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushyMay]
#1297540 - 02/10/03 04:45 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Although I agree that Bush is an asshole, and I don't know if I'd like to see him dead, but I'd like to see him out of power......but where and when did he use chemical weapons on Americans?
--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04
|
Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: angryshroom]
#1297554 - 02/10/03 04:50 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
America is one of the largest polluting countries in the world mainly because it is so rich.
Go down to Mexico City (or Tijuana) and jog around the city for a few days breathing deeply and taking note of the amount of refuse littering the landscape, the come up to San Diego and do the same. California has the most strict emission controls in the world and much less litter than our neighbor down south.
Quote:
Americans are completely ignorant to the fact that our environment is going to shit.
History is longer than your lifetime and there are plenty of people in the U.S. who are very concerned about and aware of the environment. The air is MUCH CLEANER than when I was a kid (I used to get severe chest pains from the sulfer dioxide emmisions - not any more). Also water pollution is much less than when I was a youngster. This can be scientifically verified and quantified. If you took a longer view of things you would realize that there has actually been change for the better in many respects. In other words, the sky is not falling, your pessimism is unwarranted. I know of NOBODY that wants filthy air, filthy water and the destruction of natural beauty.
We are making progress. Usually such progress doesn't come to a country till the people's standard of living has risen significantly to the point where the average person can afford to care about the environment because all their basic needs are satisfied. You are able to afford the luxury of complaint because you are living in a society which exists in an age of abundance, people living only on a level of subsitence would be more preoccupied with the task of staying alive.
Also, it is generally true that the more governments owns things, the more pollution will be allowed because there are less restraints on those that make and enforce the laws (who will fine the government for pollution violations?). Additionally, there is the problem of when there is common ownership, no one takes stewardship (because no one really owns the lands and waterways). What I'm getting at is that it seems that there is much better control of pollution when governments can act as watchdogs instead of owners, one need only look at the track record of communist countries to see this (and the actions of government agencies in this country who are immune from government oversight).
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
|
MushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 423
Loc: ACT, Australia
Last seen: 6 years, 20 days
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Skikid16]
#1297582 - 02/10/03 05:02 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, I'm not really in favour of anyone being killed. I was just playin.
As for the chemical weapon use on Americans, perhaps someone can help me, which chemical was it that was sprayed over US Navy ships without their knowledge? I'm having a brainfart.
--------------------
MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: ]
#1297678 - 02/10/03 05:34 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
you think that the u.s. is dirtier than poland?
What are you talking about? The question was which country is responsible for the most chemical pollution. Seeing as the largest chemical companies in the world are american and have a nightmarish reputation for pollution there really isn't any question about it. And no, they won't shit on their own doorstep (tho apparantly texas isn't doing so well these days) they prefer going to Bhopal and killing indians with pollution.
Read up on union carbide.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Evolving]
#1297691 - 02/10/03 05:38 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
California has the most strict emission controls in the world and much less litter than our neighbor down south.
Perhaps because american industry has moved down to mexico where they can buy off any environmental controls and pollute to their hearts content?
The air is MUCH CLEANER than when I was a kid
Because industry has moved to third world countries. Try and take the bigger picture. Go and breath the air in Bhopal if you dare.
We are making progress
No, you are simply shifting the problem to somewhere else.
Additionally, there is the problem of when there is common ownership, no one takes stewardship
Read up on union carbide and Bhopal. You might just have a change of heart.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
angryshroom
Stranger
Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Evolving]
#1297791 - 02/10/03 06:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Go down to Mexico City (or Tijuana) and jog around the city for a few days breathing deeply and taking note of the amount of refuse littering the landscape, the come up to San Diego and do the same. California has the most strict emission controls in the world and much less litter than our neighbor down south.
Yeah, I know what you mean, I lived in San Diego for 20 years. I have surfed since I was 9, and surfing has made me open my eyes to become an ecologist and environmental activist.
The problem is that Tijuana is EXTREMELY poor, same with most of Mexico. They do not have the technology or money, for educating for the people about pollution, and for cleaning the city. Its very sad. They DO have certian environmental laws (which are unfortuently not very well enforced) that are "better" than the US, one being that deisel trucks are not allowed to be driven unless it is a semi. However you think that they do have shitty gasoline and definetly do not get their cars smogged. 
But, thats all the cause of poverty, which I think was inflicted from the United States....thats just another story though...I do understand where you are coming from though.
Once you get half way down the baja penninsula, boy, it turns beautiful.
Seems to me that the US could do better with all the technology and wealth.
Since Ive been around, the water quality has for sure decreased. Surfing when I was younger, the water was usually much more blue, with less sewage smell. Nitrogen loading from the San Diego watershed, caused from farming and runoff has caused much higher bacteria levels. Ever notice that a red tide 30 years ago was a 1 time per year thing? Now, June-September we will have a red tide just about every 2 weeks. This is a direct connection with contaminated runoff creating nutrients for the certian plankton to bloom.
Ive always had that pain in my chest after running or surfing on a summer day....it makes me disgusted
|
GazzBut
Refraction
Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 5 days, 1 hour
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
#1298075 - 02/10/03 09:08 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The ranking is by amount per person, so yes, it's a valid comparison.
What I mean is they are relatively poor in comparison to the US and Europe. To be clean does cost money. No big European nations are on the list, nor are Canada or Japan. But the richest country in the world is. I dont believe the US are doing enough.
--------------------
Always Smi2le
|
Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1298457 - 02/11/03 02:38 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The air is MUCH CLEANER than when I was a kid
Because industry has moved to third world countries...
We are making progress
No, you are simply shifting the problem to somewhere else.
Alex, you are too ignorant for words. Pollution controls have greatly increased in this country over the years and things have improved. You have no basis for your moronic comments, because you have never lived in California, nor have you lived long enough to witness the improvements in air and water quality that I have while the population and number of industries have increased in the state. As usual, you only purpose is to bash America while ignoring anything which does not fit your narrow world view of America as the world's only source of problems.
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Evolving]
#1298652 - 02/11/03 04:23 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
while the population and number of industries have increased in the state
Two words moron. ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROLS. Put in place by, shock horror, the GOVERNMENT.
If we had left it in the hands of private corporations we would be choking on chemical pollution like the third world countries they have moved operations to.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1298993 - 02/11/03 06:37 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
while the population and number of industries have increased in the state
Two words moron. ENVIRONMENTAL CONTROLS. Put in place by, shock horror, the GOVERNMENT.
If we had left it in the hands of private corporations we would be choking on chemical pollution like the third world countries they have moved operations to.
You really are incompetent at reading aren't you? I was responding to your inane and unfounded assertion (do you make any other kind) that the reason pollution was less was because there was less industry in the U.S. than before. Your ignorant statements included, "Because industry has moved to third world countries..." and "No, you are simply shifting the problem to somewhere else." Because you are to too small minded to admit you are wrong you choose the transparent tactic (as usual) of changing focus so you won't like like a fool. (News flash, it doesn't work, other readers of these boards have more intelligence than you give them credit for we see you for what you are.)
Here, I'll quote what I previously stated for you. If you don't want others to look at you for the dolt you are, This time, READ IT and TRY TO COMPREHEND..."it is generally true that the more governments owns things, the more pollution will be allowed because there are less restraints on those that make and enforce the laws (who will fine the government for pollution violations?). Additionally, there is the problem of when there is common ownership, no one takes stewardship (because no one really owns the lands and waterways). What I'm getting at is that it seems that there is much better control of pollution when governments can act as watchdogs instead of owners, one need only look at the track record of communist countries to see this (and the actions of government agencies in this country who are immune from government oversight)."
Two words Alex, READING COMPREHENSION. Think, read, think again and try to comprehend before inserting your foot in your mouth.
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Evolving]
#1299236 - 02/11/03 07:47 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Oh please you tiresome moron. You can have as much non-polluting industry as you like. I would expect even the dullest of dullards to be able grasp this simple point. Clearly you failed.
There is less polluting industry in the US because the government has introduced environmental controls. Understand?
The industries that pollute have either cut pollution where the government has forced them to or simply moved to third world countries and caused catastrophies there.
when governments can act as watchdogs
Ignoring the basic point that in third world countries the polluting industries are often far more powerful than the government who can therefore affect no control whatsoever over pollution.
Basic business 101: You do not move your polluting industry to a country with a government powerful enough to ban pollution. Cleaning up the environment costs enormous amounts and cuts your profits hugely.
Try thinking for a change.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Skikid16
fungus fan
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1299250 - 02/11/03 07:51 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Dude, he(evolving) was speaking of America, and he is right when he said America is cleaner.
Policing the world's environmental concerns is an entirely different thread.
--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Skikid16]
#1299286 - 02/11/03 08:00 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Er...I've been saying america is cleaner for the last 4 posts. Not sure what you are talking about.
The post was about which country causes the most chemical pollution - Dow chemical, Union carbide, Dupont all the really massive chemical companies and gigantic polluters are american owned. They now often operate out of third world places where they can buy off governments and pollute to their hearts content.
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
Skikid16
fungus fan
Registered: 06/27/02
Posts: 5,666
Loc: In the middle of the nort...
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1299333 - 02/11/03 08:14 AM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I agree that Dow and Union Carbide are fucked up for doing what they did, but what are we supposed to do, I mean if the US government puts regulations on all American owned companies, those companies will simply move their ownership elsewhere.
--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04
|
Evolving
Resident Cynic
Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Xlea321]
#1306387 - 02/13/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
There is less polluting industry in the US because the government has introduced environmental controls. Understand?
You really are a simpleton, I stated this before, but you are either lacking in the mental faculties necessary to comprehend my earlier statements or you realize it and are making a really lousy attempt to distract from your ignorant responses.
Quote:
The industries that pollute have either cut pollution where the government has forced them to or simply moved to third world countries and caused catastrophies there.
Let's recap you dullard,
Evolving wrote:
California has the most strict emission controls in the world and much less litter than our neighbor down south.
Moron responded:
Perhaps because american industry has moved down to mexico where they can buy off any environmental controls and pollute to their hearts content?
Evolving wrote:
The air is MUCH CLEANER than when I was a kid
Ignoramus responded:
Because industry has moved to third world countries.
Evolving wrote:
We are making progress
Village idiot responded:
No, you are simply shifting the problem to somewhere else.
Evolving wrote:
Pollution controls have greatly increased in this country over the years and things have improved.... you have never lived in California, nor have you lived long enough to witness the improvements in air and water quality that I have while the population and number of industries have increased in the state.
So, the main thrust of your previous statements was that pollution has decreased in the U.S. only because industries have moved out. This was clearly a statement born out of ignorance or just plain stupidity. I was countering that, but instead of admitting that you are wrong you do your typical mental spastic dance in an infantile attempt to distract from another display of mental incompetence.
--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.' Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence. Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains. Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.
Edited by Evolving (02/13/03 04:54 PM)
|
Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
|
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Evolving]
#1306512 - 02/13/03 05:39 PM (20 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yes my dear
--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi
|
|
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Buy Kratom Extract 
Buy Bali Kratom Powder 
CBD Concentrates 
North Spore Mushroom Grow Kits & Cultivation Supplies 
Kratom Capsules for Sale 
Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order
Edit 
Reply 
Xlea321
phi1618
1 2 3 4 5 all )
Edame
wingnutx
enotake2