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OfflineDogomush
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Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
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Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not..
    #1287988 - 02/07/03 09:04 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hey, I came across a long and excellent speech delivered by Noam Chomsky a few days ago. It's a really interesting read, and anyone interested in the state of the world should check it out. He brings up some really solid points. Here's an excerpt:

"When a new administration comes into office, it receives a review of the world situation compiled by the intelligence agencies. It is secret; we learn about these things many years later. But when Bush #1 came into office in 1989, a small part of the review was leaked, a passage concerned with ?cases where the U.S. confronts much weaker enemies? ? the only kind one would think of fighting. Intelligence analysts advised that in conflicts with ?much weaker enemies? the U.S. must win ?decisively and rapidly,? or popular support will collapse. It?s not like the 1960s, when the population would tolerate a murderous and destructive war for years without visible protest. That?s no longer true. The activist movements of the past 40 years have had a significant civilizing effect. By now, the only way to attack a much weaker enemy is to construct a huge propaganda offensive depicting it as about to commit genocide, maybe even a threat to our very survival, then to celebrate a miraculous victory over the awesome foe, while chanting praises to the courageous leaders who came to the rescue just in time.

That is the current scenario in Iraq.

Polls reveal more support for the planned war in the U.S. than elsewhere, but the numbers are misleading. It is important to bear in mind that the US is the only country outside Iraq where Saddam Hussein is not only reviled but also feared. There is a flood of lurid propaganda warning that if we do not stop him today he will destroy us tomorrow. The next evidence of his weapons of mass destruction may be a ?mushroom cloud,? so National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice announced in September ? presumably over New York. No one in Iraq?s neighborhood seems overly concerned, much as they may hate the murderous tyrant. Perhaps that is because they know that as a result of the sanctions ?the vast majority of the country?s population has been on a semi-starvation diet for years,? as the World Health Organization reported, and that Iraq is one of the weakest states in the region: its economy and military expenditures are a fraction of Kuwait?s, which has 10% of Iraq?s population, and much farther below others nearby."

And then it continues into a review of the propaganda designed to convince Americans that Iraq is actually a threat. Cool stuff check it out

Edit: forgot link: article


Edited by Dogomush (02/07/03 09:19 AM)


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1288006 - 02/07/03 09:10 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Sounds interesting...Link?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineDogomush
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Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1288027 - 02/07/03 09:20 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

whoops forgot link!


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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1288190 - 02/07/03 10:41 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Excellent article by Noam Chomsky :wink: 


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1288411 - 02/07/03 11:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting article.

Quote:

Polls reveal more support for the planned war in the U.S. than elsewhere




Funny, I wasn't polled on this question about supporting the war, nor any of my friends or family... Hmmm.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1288808 - 02/07/03 02:17 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)



--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: Park Avenue Playground - The Trip



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Anonymous

Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: angryshroom]
    #1288891 - 02/07/03 02:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Funny how I wasn't either, or any of my pro-war friends.


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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1288963 - 02/07/03 03:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Funny that you are only a minority of people who actually think that way.
Does it have anything to do with ignorance on this issue ?
Who knows... :smirk: 


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1288997 - 02/07/03 03:27 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Please explain how I'm ignorant of this issue. And while you're at it, show me some figures saying that the majority of the world is against this war. Oh that's right... no one even has the capacity to poll the entire globe. Just because some countries in the UN are all out anti-US doesn't mean shit.


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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289052 - 02/07/03 03:49 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Ohh, I forgot that the Great Britain counts for all countries in the world.


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1289054 - 02/07/03 03:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I see we have a new Alex on the block.


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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289068 - 02/07/03 03:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You guessed right.
My first name is Alex.


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: MushMushi]
    #1289096 - 02/07/03 04:04 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Read the post again. I don't know how you got the impression that I think Great Britain is the whole world.

There are other countries backing us, such as Spain and Denmark. Now again, show my some worldwide polls showing that the majority of people are against the war.


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InvisibleMushMushi
Registered: 08/23/02
Posts: 480
Loc: Canada
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289117 - 02/07/03 04:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I think these countries might have an interest in the war.

I was talking about the Great Britain because, usually, they always agree with usa.


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OfflineDogomush
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Registered: 10/05/02
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Loc: The Canadian west coast
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Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289357 - 02/07/03 05:51 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

There are other countries backing us, such as Spain and Denmark. Now again, show my some worldwide polls showing that the majority of people are against the war.

Here you go man, read the article I linked to. I cut out the statistics that you asked for:

"A few days ago a poll in Canada found that over 1/3 of the population regard the U.S. as the greatest threat to world peace."

"A poll without careful controls, by Time magazine, found that over 80% of respondents in Europe regarded the U.S. as the greatest threat to world peace, compared with less than 10% for Iraq or North Korea. Even if these numbers are wrong by some substantial factor, they are dramatic. "

"Opposition to the war is completely without historical precedent. In Europe it is so high that Secretary of ?Defense? Donald Rumsfeld dismissed Germany and France as just the ?old Europe,? plainly of no concern because of their disobedience. The ?vast numbers of other countries in Europe [are] with the United States,? he assured foreign journalists. These vast numbers are the ?new Europe,? symbolized by Italy?s Berlusconi, soon to visit the White House, praying that he will be invited to be the third of the ?three B?s?: Bush-Blair-Berlusconi ? assuming that he can stay out of jail. Italy is on board, the White House tells us. It is apparently not a problem that over 80% of the public is opposed to the war, according to recent polls. That just shows that the people of Italy also belong to the ?old Europe,? and can be sent to the ashcan of history along with France and Germany, and others who do not know their place. "

"Spain is hailed as another prominent member of the new Europe -- with 75% totally opposed to the war, according to an international Gallup poll."

"pretty much the same is true of the most hopeful part of the new Europe, the former Communist countries that are counted on (quite openly) to serve U.S. interests and undermine Europe?s despised social market and welfare states. He reports that in Czechoslovakia, 2/3 of the population oppose participation in a war, while in Poland only ? would support a war even if the UN inspectors ?prove that Iraq possesses weapons of mass destruction.? The Polish press reports 37% approval in this case, still extremely low, at the heart of the ?new Europe.?

New Europe soon identified itself in an open letter in the Wall Street Journal: along with Italy, Spain, Poland and Czechoslovakia ? the leaders, that is, not the people ? it includes Denmark (with popular opinion on the war about the same as Germany, therefore ?old Europe?), Portugal (53% opposed to war under any circumstances, 96% opposed to war by the U.S. and its allies unilaterally), Britain (40% opposed to war under any circumstances, 90% opposed to war by the U.S. and its allies unilaterally), and Hungary (no figures available).

In brief, the exciting ?new Europe? consists of some leaders who are willing to defy their populations.



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Anonymous

Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1289378 - 02/07/03 06:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

So you have proven (through very questionable resources) that most of the Western European people are against us. That hardly proves that I am in the minority throught to world. Unless you mean to say Western Europe is the only part of the globe that matters?

And it really doesn't matter what the people think. They elect officials to deal with situations like this, because the masses have little or no interest in politics and would rather someone else deal with the field. I guess America is the only country that has elected a leader with whom it agrees.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289385 - 02/07/03 06:03 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I guess America is the only country that has elected a leader with whom it agrees.



Actually, the Supreme Court elected him.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: silversoul7]
    #1289415 - 02/07/03 06:15 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The Supreme Court is part of the American government and thus part of America. Surely the majority of Americans would be very pissed off if a presient they didn't want in office was "appointed" to the presidency. There didn't seem to be much of an uproar except from the extreme Democrats.


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Anonymous]
    #1289445 - 02/07/03 06:30 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

So you have proven (through very questionable resources) that most of the Western European people are against us.

I would actually consider Noam Chomsky to be an excellent source for accurate polls. He's the kind of guy who understands what makes a poll bogus or accurate.

That hardly proves that I am in the minority throught to world. Unless you mean to say Western Europe is the only part of the globe that matters?

No, I wouldn't say that western europe is the only part of the globe that matters. I would point out that Canada, Czechoslovakia and a number of other countries in the poll aren't from western europe. I'd also suggest you read the article in the Pub forum about Nelson mandela's stance on war. If you would read the speech this thread is about you'd find some other countries included in the statistics.

Also, I don't forsee many countries other than european and north american ones contributing to the war effort, so maybe these are the only regions that really do matter. You can bet Nicaragua is opposed to the war, but it really doesn't matter because they aren't going to be committing troops. If a country with 80% of the population opposed to war starts killing people in the middle east there's something definetly wrong with that.

And it really doesn't matter what the people think. They elect officials to deal with situations like this, because the masses have little or no interest in politics and would rather someone else deal with the field.

Strange point.. If the masses have "little or no interest in politics" then how can they be trusted to elect competent officials? I know I don't vote for people to think for me. I vote for people to represent me. What this situation shows is that it can be hard to know whether or not a politician will represent the population until he's elected and the country tries him out.

Anyway gotta go,


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Anonymous

Re: Iraq.. really a threat? maybe not.. [Re: Dogomush]
    #1290263 - 02/08/03 06:47 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

You go to GNN, I go to NewsMax.  Both are extremely biased (former to the left, latter to the right) and therefore should be used with caution.  Quoting sites like this is sure to spread misleading information, and won't help to convince the opposition.

As for going to war, most of the information and evidence has been presented for and against it.  Saddam is a tyrant who should be taken out, but we wouldn't be bothering with Iraq if it weren't for the oil.  I guess you could say oil is just the icing on the cake of death :wink:

I believe we're right to go to war, and so does most of America.  That means we're going to war, despite everyone's protest.  Frankly, Europe has given us so much shit since WWII that we have stopped caring what they think.  Maybe France's opinion would mean something to Bush if France weren't openly anti-US since DeGalle, protesting our help reconstructing Europe.


Edited by Anonymous (02/08/03 06:52 AM)


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