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Offlineblinkybill
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Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 246
Loc: Albania Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Suffering [Re: Mufungo]
    #12865109 - 07/07/10 11:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
What's this "we" nonsense.




Clearly you have an unorthodox understanding of the word suffer. You're surely not claiming that we don't suffer from cancer or that the prisoners of auschwitz could choose not to suffer? And as for your 'he man' claim to suffering immunity, please rest assured, i could very definitely make you suffer. When pain is continuous and involuntary and unavoidable that is what is called suffering. It isn't choosing to wallow or be dominated by your pain or giving in. And even if it was there's a threshold for everyone tough guy.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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Offlineblinkybill
outsider


Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 246
Loc: Albania Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Suffering [Re: Icelander]
    #12865121 - 07/07/10 11:57 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Wrong:tongue:, read what the Buddha said.




First noble truth: Life is suffering


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
Re: Suffering [Re: blinkybill]
    #12865127 - 07/07/10 11:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I am sensing a cool challenge in the making. I volunteer to be the videographer.


--------------------

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Offlineblinkybill
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Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 246
Loc: Albania Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Suffering [Re: Icelander]
    #12865154 - 07/08/10 12:08 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
According to da Buddha, and I agree, suffering is caused by attachment. Attachment to things being other than they actually are.

The camp dude was talking about pain imo.




Dream on slander man. You so want suffering to be avoidable you'll resort to selective interpretation of archaic scripture.. Try and tell yourself its all an error of judgment. But when the booze wears off do you really expect us to believe that you don't suffer from the harsh light of reality. I bet you've been frightened as a rabbit.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Suffering [Re: blinkybill]
    #12866218 - 07/08/10 07:55 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Wrong:tongue:, read what the Buddha said.




First noble truth: Life is suffering





Read on. Life is suffering from attachment to things and expecting them to last. A fair description of neurosis which humanity is prey to.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (07/08/10 07:57 AM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Suffering [Re: blinkybill]
    #12866229 - 07/08/10 08:01 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
According to da Buddha, and I agree, suffering is caused by attachment. Attachment to things being other than they actually are.

The camp dude was talking about pain imo.




Dream on slander man. You so want suffering to be avoidable you'll resort to selective interpretation of archaic scripture.. Try and tell yourself its all an error of judgment. But when the booze wears off do you really expect us to believe that you don't suffer from the harsh light of reality. I bet you've been frightened as a rabbit.





First off personalisms are :nono: so stfu.

I suffer as all humans do by choice. If someone insults me I can choose to be upset or not. If I fall prey to illness I choose how I deal with it. The pain is always there but my reaction to it, as in demanding from life that I not be ill is all in my control, whether I know that or not.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMufungo
Coming at ya
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Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 2,743
Loc: Knowhere
Re: Suffering [Re: blinkybill]
    #12866257 - 07/08/10 08:13 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Mufungo said:
What's this "we" nonsense.




Clearly you have an unorthodox understanding of the word suffer.





Not at all, but neither am I bound to limitting myself to conform to any doctrine or convention as indicated by your understandings. Thus, I would neither describe my understanding here as orthodox or unorthodox. Like everything else, language and its meaning changes over time.

Quote:

blinkybill said:
You're surely not claiming that we don't suffer from cancer or that the prisoners of auschwitz could choose not to suffer?





Yes you're quite right, I don't suffer from cancer. I don't know about your situation, you could have cancer for all I know. Another "we" misrepresenting the way things are. Please learn that "your" interpretation is not "our" interpretation. I also don't know about every single prisoner of Auschwitz and how they responded to or interpreted their experiences in Auschwitz to make a claim about whether every last one of them suffered or not. If you want to apply your generalisation to every single prisoner, then enjoy.

Quote:

blinkybill said:
And as for your 'he man' claim to suffering immunity, please rest assured, i could very definitely make you suffer.





:lol: :hug:

Quote:

blinkybill said:
When pain is continuous and involuntary and unavoidable that is what is called suffering. It isn't choosing to wallow or be dominated by your pain or giving in. And even if it was there's a threshold for everyone tough guy.




Finally, a definition so that we might know what you've been jibber-jabbering about all this time. Where did you get this definition from by the way? 

But anyways, I take it that pain is a necessary criteria in your understanding of suffering, that much is fairly clear.

So, how about "continuous", "involuntary" and "unavoidable"? Are all three necessary for suffering or is it sufficient to have just two of those or maybe just one? In any particular order? And how long does the pain have to be continuous without any break in pain? How exactly do you determine whether something is avoidable or not? Are you a subscriber to models of determinism or fate or free-will? Oops, taking it a bit off track with that question. And how do you determine whether the pain is voluntary or not? When a prisoner stayed in Auschwitz of their own volition when they had the opportunity to flee because they were worried of the consequences to other prisoners, was that involuntary or voluntary or a little bit of both depending?

My take on suffering is based on my experience of the contexts it is used in by people. To me, suffering is an interpretation of an experience which presupposes there is a victim. As used by you with your examples of cancer and Auschwitz prisoners, the person "suffering" is a victim of something (cancer) or someone (WWII German soldiers) else . I personally have no need or desire to interpret myself as a victim and as such can honestly say that I can't be made to suffer.


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OfflineFreedom
Pigment of your imagination
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Re: Suffering [Re: Icelander]
    #12866304 - 07/08/10 08:29 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The Buddha was talking about dukkha.

Quote:

"Birth is dukkha, aging is dukkha, death is dukkha; sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair are dukkha; association with the unbeloved is dukkha; separation from the loved is dukkha; not getting what is wanted is dukkha. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are dukkha."




Bud said you can end dukkha

Quote:

"Both formerly & now, it is only dukkha that I describe, and the cessation of dukkha, suckha."







"What is the cessation of suffering? It is the remainderless fading away and ceasing, the giving up, relinquishing, letting go and rejecting of that same craving. This is called the cessation of suffering."





Those buddhists didn't shy away from defining their terms :

Quote:

Sariputta's elaboration

[Ven. Sariputta:] "Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.



"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.



"And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging.



"And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.



"And what is sorrow? Whatever sorrow, sorrowing, sadness, inward sorrow, inward sadness of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called sorrow.



"And what is lamentation? Whatever crying, grieving, lamenting, weeping, wailing, lamentation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called lamentation.



"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.



"And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress.



"And what is despair? Whatever despair, despondency, desperation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called despair.



"And what is the stress of association with the unbeloved? There is the case where undesirable, unpleasing, unattractive sights, sounds, aromas, flavors, or tactile sensations occur to one; or one has connection, contact, relationship, interaction with those who wish one ill, who wish for one's harm, who wish for one's discomfort, who wish one no security from the yoke. This is called the stress of association with the unbeloved.



"And what is the stress of separation from the loved? There is the case where desirable, pleasing, attractive sights, sounds, aromas, flavors, or tactile sensations do not occur to one; or one has no connection, no contact, no relationship, no interaction with those who wish one well, who wish for one's benefit, who wish for one's comfort, who wish one security from the yoke, nor with one's mother, father, brother, sister, friends, companions, or relatives. This is called the stress of separation from the loved.



"And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted.



Edited by Freedom (07/08/10 09:49 AM)

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OfflineLawL mushrooms
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Re: Suffering [Re: blinkybill]
    #12870608 - 07/08/10 11:56 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

suffering is pain, and sometimes there are good reasons for use  to feel it. so yeah i would say on some levels it would. situational though.


--------------------
Living A Wild Life-LawL

"Why are we here?" "I am here to help others, i don't know why the others are here"

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Offlineblinkybill
outsider


Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 246
Loc: Albania Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Suffering [Re: Icelander]
    #12870826 - 07/09/10 01:27 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
According to da Buddha, and I agree, suffering is caused by attachment. Attachment to things being other than they actually are.

The camp dude was talking about pain imo.




Dream on slander man. You so want suffering to be avoidable you'll resort to selective interpretation of archaic scripture.. Try and tell yourself its all an error of judgment. But when the booze wears off do you really expect us to believe that you don't suffer from the harsh light of reality. I bet you've been frightened as a rabbit.





First off personalisms are :nono: so stfu.

I suffer as all humans do by choice. If someone insults me I can choose to be upset or not. If I fall prey to illness I choose how I deal with it. The pain is always there but my reaction to it, as in demanding from life that I not be ill is all in my control, whether I know that or not.



My post does sound insulting but that was not the spirit it was delivered in. Nevertheless, please accept my apologies.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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Offlineblinkybill
outsider


Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 246
Loc: Albania Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Suffering [Re: Mufungo]
    #12870929 - 07/09/10 02:09 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mufungo said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Mufungo said:
What's this "we" nonsense.




Clearly you have an unorthodox understanding of the word suffer.





Not at all, but neither am I bound to limitting myself to conform to any doctrine or convention as indicated by your understandings. Thus, I would neither describe my understanding here as orthodox or unorthodox. Like everything else, language and its meaning changes over time.

Quote:

blinkybill said:
You're surely not claiming that we don't suffer from cancer or that the prisoners of auschwitz could choose not to suffer?





Yes you're quite right, I don't suffer from cancer. I don't know about your situation, you could have cancer for all I know. Another "we" misrepresenting the way things are. Please learn that "your" interpretation is not "our" interpretation. I also don't know about every single prisoner of Auschwitz and how they responded to or interpreted their experiences in Auschwitz to make a claim about whether every last one of them suffered or not. If you want to apply your generalisation to every single prisoner, then enjoy.

Quote:

blinkybill said:
And as for your 'he man' claim to suffering immunity, please rest assured, i could very definitely make you suffer.





:lol: :hug:

Quote:

blinkybill said:
When pain is continuous and involuntary and unavoidable that is what is called suffering. It isn't choosing to wallow or be dominated by your pain or giving in. And even if it was there's a threshold for everyone tough guy.




Finally, a definition so that we might know what you've been jibber-jabbering about all this time. Where did you get this definition from by the way? 

But anyways, I take it that pain is a necessary criteria in your understanding of suffering, that much is fairly clear.

So, how about "continuous", "involuntary" and "unavoidable"? Are all three necessary for suffering or is it sufficient to have just two of those or maybe just one? In any particular order? And how long does the pain have to be continuous without any break in pain? How exactly do you determine whether something is avoidable or not? Are you a subscriber to models of determinism or fate or free-will? Oops, taking it a bit off track with that question. And how do you determine whether the pain is voluntary or not? When a prisoner stayed in Auschwitz of their own volition when they had the opportunity to flee because they were worried of the consequences to other prisoners, was that involuntary or voluntary or a little bit of both depending?

My take on suffering is based on my experience of the contexts it is used in by people. To me, suffering is an interpretation of an experience which presupposes there is a victim. As used by you with your examples of cancer and Auschwitz prisoners, the person "suffering" is a victim of something (cancer) or someone (WWII German soldiers) else . I personally have no need or desire to interpret myself as a victim and as such can honestly say that I can't be made to suffer.




To be victim to events outside of your control is not the same thing as subscribing to victimhood (these are not my personal definitions, intelligent discourse crumbles when participants start using their own preferred meanings). For some people, usually men ime, suffering appears to connote a passivity which understandably offends them but you can suffer with dignity and courage, you can suffer hurling abuse at your persecutors, you can suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune in steadfast defiance. You cannot, however, escape suffering altogether; not even with some long dead, fat asian mystic's magical emlightenment formula.

The question I posed - Does suffering enrich us - is an often posed question in philosophy. Here suffering refers to the universal experience of suffering (what you feel more comfortable calling pain). But thanks for your input. I now know to rephrase the question to something like: Can the universal experiences of illness, loss, violence, violation, abuse, humiliation, and innumerable unthinkable agonies enrich us? I don't know why i didn't think of that in the first place. :blush:


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Suffering [Re: blinkybill]
    #12871476 - 07/09/10 08:16 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Apology accepted. So did you see how suffering is different than pure pain? Suffering is caused by the demand that pain not be present or continue or be possible either emotionally or physically. We suffer by choice although it is definitely a selected trait in a neurotic culture.

So two people experiencing the same pain may have very different overall experiences.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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