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InvisibleByrain


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ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius?
    #12867800 - 07/08/10 02:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Habitat:
Sacramento area, California growing on a well irrigated soccer field, same location as this thread.
Gills:
Pallid gills and darkening in time

Stem:
6.5 cm to 7.5 cm long, 0.1 cm to 0.3 cm thick, reddish to brown/ochre to tan, smooth much like the other Panaeolus species I have encountered, hollow, thick in comparison to thinner Panaeolus stems.

Cap:
1.1 to 1.4 cm broad, brown/ochre tanning in age, smooth to wrinkled to cracking, the shape being something like campanulate/ hemisperic/ convex.

Spore print color:
One left a faint black spore print within minutes, others I am still waiting on.

Bruising:
On the base of the stem, bluing strongly.

Pictures:


Pictures moved to mushroom observer (One left not to ruin GK's post)

Edited by Byrain (11/30/10 05:07 PM)

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Byrain]
    #12867819 - 07/08/10 02:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This looks identical to the species in the other thread

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Offlineelprawn
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Byrain]
    #12867824 - 07/08/10 02:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting find. :laugh:

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InvisibleByrain


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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: elprawn]
    #12867887 - 07/08/10 03:05 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

World Spirit said:
This looks identical to the species in the other thread




They seem off to me minus the bluing, some reasons:

- The cap color for the species in the other thread is much lighter, almost white, and usually remains a similar shade no matter how much sun exposure they had that day (I've picked them at 7 in the morning to 8 at night and the sun is always melting these days).  While these are more of a brown/ochre.
- The gill color is pallid only darkening later, while the mystery species seems to be jet black at all stages.
- They match the description in Stamets' Psilocybin Mushrooms of the world perfectly (Or almost perfectly).

Though I could easily be wrong. :smile:

Quote:

elprawn said:
Interesting find. :laugh:




Thanks. :smile:

Also, I have found specimens that look like this (Minus the bluing) from a completely separate spot that have P. cintulus growing before, but I assumed they where also that at the time.  Those never showed true jet black gills, minus the jet black spore print.  I think I got some pics on here, let me see if I can find them.

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Invisiblecaphillkid
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: World Spirit]
    #12867927 - 07/08/10 03:13 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

World Spirit said:
This looks identical to the species in the other thread




And the other one too that was IDed as Panaeolopsis by some TIs.  That being said, I have no idea what this is.  It's funny though, cause he posts the same mushrooms from the same field and seems to think they are possibly different species.

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InvisibleByrain


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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: caphillkid]
    #12868005 - 07/08/10 03:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Byrain said:I think I got some pics on here, let me see if I can find them.




Found them:



The smaller one on the left on both pictures, only looks similar though, especially the gill color.  The cap color should still be in the acceptable range for P. castaneifolius according to Stamets' Psilocybin mushrooms of the world though.

"Dark smokey gray when moist, hygrophanous, soon drying to a more stray yellow or pale ochraceous, and remaining more reddish brown at the apex and more smokey brownish along the margin."

And for the gill color.

"Pallid at first, becoming dark purplish gray-black at spore maturity"

Quote:

caphillkid said:
Quote:

World Spirit said:
This looks identical to the species in the other thread




And the other one too that was IDed as Panaeolopsis by some TIs.  That being said, I have no idea what this is.  It's funny though, cause he posts the same mushrooms from the same field and seems to think they are possibly different species.




I don't remember that, mind linking me to the post in that thread which has a TI identifying them as Panaeolopsis?  I only remember you saying that with two TI doing so in another separate thread with mushrooms from a close by location, but before we get into that again, there are Panaeolopsis growing in that place with the mystery bluing species as well now, found a few today even, let me upload the pics.

Lastly, the more I read about Panaeolus, the more I realize that a lot of these species look very similar. :smile:

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Invisiblecaphillkid
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Byrain]
    #12868129 - 07/08/10 03:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Here's the link, I don't really want to rehash this argument all over again.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12774986#12774986

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InvisibleByrain


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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: caphillkid]
    #12868224 - 07/08/10 03:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Here are the panaeolopsis:


The ones on the right I am unsure of, the ones on the left though seem clear and cut panaeolopsis to me.

The ones on the left:



The ones on the right:



Quote:

caphillkid said:
Here's the link, I don't really want to rehash this argument all over again.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/12774986#12774986




I am aware of that link, though now that I am re-reading your post it seems I misread it, I thought you where claiming something else.

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Invisiblecaphillkid
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Byrain]
    #12868243 - 07/08/10 03:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, I'm actually quite interested in what you have going there.  It could be something non-described.  All I was saying is that it's most likely that the ones you've posted so far are all the same species.  ...but I don't know.

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InvisibleGerman Kahuna
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Byrain]
    #12868264 - 07/08/10 04:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)



BADASS! Cool finds!


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"Vegetarian" [ /ˌvedʒəˈteəriən/] - Ancient slang meaning "village idiot who can't hunt, fish or ride".

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InvisibleByrain


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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: caphillkid]
    #12868286 - 07/08/10 04:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

caphillkid said:
No, I'm actually quite interested in what you have going there.  It could be something non-described.  All I was saying is that it's most likely that the ones you've posted so far are all the same species.  ...but I don't know.




Lets agree to disagree about the variety of different species in that field for the meantime (There is at the very least Panaeolus cintulus (Haven't posted many pics) and Conocybe albipes or something very similar.  Panaeolopsis, a mystery Panaeolus species, and Panaeolus castaneifolius are also species that may or may not be growing there to keep count, but its undecided about those), while we wait for Workman's microscopy? :smile:

As for these ones, yes, I am very unsure too.

Edit:  Panaeolina foenisecii also grows in that field, but not in the same part as the bluing active finds (Unless you count P. cintulus with minor bluing).

Edited by Byrain (07/08/10 04:12 PM)

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InvisibleBobzimmer
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Byrain]
    #12868305 - 07/08/10 04:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Byrain said:
Lastly, the more I read about Panaeolus, the more I realize that a lot of these species look very similar. :smile:


:yesnod: Microscopy is in order.

Very interesting finds.:thumbup:


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Bobzimmer]
    #12868410 - 07/08/10 04:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I strongly feel that this is either a variation of the same Panaeolopsis species found in other threads, or (more likely), this will be labeled a "new" species within the Panaeolopsis genus. It has very unique macroscopic features that have not be revealed in other collections, most notably the variation of the cap formations and of course the distinct "method" in which the blue bruising reveals itself.

I love you guys. Did I mention that?

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InvisibleByrain


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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: World Spirit]
    #12868557 - 07/08/10 04:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

@ World Spirit, could you elaborate on these two parts?

Quote:

this will be labeled a "new" species within the Panaeolopsis genus





Why Panaeolopsis?  I was under the impression that Panaeolopsis took on the secotioid appearance in both the early stages and the late stages thus don't drop spores easily?  Both of these collections both have expanded caps, the first lighter ones do take on an secotioid like appearance in age though, and both drop spores quickly and easily (When not too dried out).  If I am mistaken, I would very much like to know how.

Quote:

and of course the distinct "method" in which the blue bruising reveals itself.




That is the part that seemed most similar to the other collections to my noobish eyes, what is it that I am overlooking? :smile:

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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: Byrain]
    #12868697 - 07/08/10 05:12 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Alan R, Workman, and Inski would be better sources to direct this question towards, however, I'll take a stab since I was the one who said this. :laugh:  In terms of the shape of the caps, they vary widely but notably fail to open up or open up fully - a distinct feature of all Panaeolopsis collections thus far.

Again, there is very little information on the genus Panaeolopsis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panaeolopsis and http://www.mushroomexpert.com/taxonomy.html

To my knowledge (and I may not have the updated info) there are no species listings within the genus (ie there is only one known species so far and thus you don't have Panaeolopsis byrainisii for example).

Panaeolopsis as a genus is new "to us." I'm not sure when the first collection was originally identified and classified by a mycologist. This is something we should look into.

Regarding the bluing: Check out the collections of other Panaeolopsis at: http://mushroomobserver.org/observer/observation_search?pattern=panaeolopsis ; and  http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=paneolopsis&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

A comparison between this collection and others are distinctly different (length of bluing from base of stem up and shade of bluing). The images you have on display in this thread are the same species and genus that you provided in your other thread, as another friend pointed to.

Edited by World Spirit (07/08/10 05:35 PM)

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InvisibleByrain


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Re: ID Request Please, bluing Panaeolus castaneifolius? [Re: World Spirit]
    #12868972 - 07/08/10 05:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

World Spirit said:
Alan R, Workman, and Inski would be better sources to direct this question towards, however, I'll take a stab since I was the one who said this. :laugh:




If any of them come in here, they are very welcome to add additional information. :smile:

Quote:

World Spirit said:Again, there is very little information on the genus Panaeolopsis. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panaeolopsis and http://www.mushroomexpert.com/taxonomy.html

To my knowledge (and I may not have the updated info) there are no species listings within the genus (ie there is only one known species so far and thus you don't have Panaeolopsis byrainisii for example).

Panaeolopsis as a genus is new "to us." I'm not sure when the first collection was originally identified and classified by a mycologist. This is something we should look into.




I found the source of my belief of what Panaeolopsis is, CureCat wrote this on one of her Mushroom Observer Panaeolopsis postings:

Quote:

I have not found any Panaeolopsis (secotioid Panaeolus) since I moved from San Diego, so this was a welcome surprise. I have only found Panaeolopsis in recently laid sod or well tended grass, but this isolated patch was growing amongst some Panaeolina in a rather weedy patch of grass.




Now, outside of that, you have helped me realize that I don't actually know that Panaeolopsis consists of only secotioid species, but all pictures I have seen of the unnamed species and one (Few as I recall, but I don't remember clearly) listed species do contain that trait.  Some users I don't recall the usernames of right now in the other thread stated that they look like Copelandia which are defined on the fact that they blue easily according to Stamets' "Psilocybin mushrooms of the world" (He doesn't actually use it outside of the Panaeolus species introduction and alternative names).  And out of all the species I have found under Panaeolus, they most resemble Panaeolus cyanescens (Which is a Copelandia species) as Bobzimmer originally stated in the other thread (Though as was already decided, they are off for a few different reasons, habitat and location mainly).

Which brings to mind that Stamets also stated that Panaeolus is a quite adaptable genus and these two questions (To anyone that knows), what are ideal fruiting conditions for Panaeolus cyanescens or related species in terms of temperature and humidity (And other factors I am overlooking)?  And does the spore shape differ from P. cyanescens in significant ways (I understand that this still would not be conclusive)?

Quote:

World Spirit said:Regarding the bluing: Check out the collections of other Panaeolopsis at: http://mushroomobserver.org/observer/observation_search?pattern=panaeolopsis ; and  http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&source=imghp&q=paneolopsis&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

A comparison between this collection and others are distinctly different (length of bluing from base of stem up and shade of bluing). The images you have on display in this thread are the same species and genus that you provided in your other thread, as another friend pointed to.




Seems I am not reading posts very clearly today. :tongue:  I thought you meant to my other collection.  There are also more pictures of bluing Panaeolopsis in the last big P. cintulus thread, I recall it to be closer to P. cintulus rather then this stronger bluing.  I'll try to find it to link to in a bit.

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