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InvisibleRevelation

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Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 6,130
Loc: heart cave
Proof?
    #1281857 - 02/05/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2729731.stm

Recorded conversation between two senior officers in Iraq's elite military unit, The Republican Guard. The day before UN inspectors come to visit:

Col: Peace. We just have a small question.

Gen: Yeah.

Col: About this committee that is coming...

Gen: Yeah, yeah.

Col: With Mohamed ElBaradei [Director, International Atomic Energy Agency]

Gen: Yeah, yeah.

Col: Yeah.

Gen: Yeah?

Col: We have this modified vehicle.

Gen: Yeah.

Col: What do we say if one of them sees it?

Gen: You didn't get a modified... You don't have a modified...

Col: By God, I have one.

Gen: Which? From the workshop...?

Col: From the al-Kindi Company.

Gen: What?

Col: From al-Kindi.

Gen: Yeah, yeah. I'll come to you in the morning. I have some comments? I'm worried you all have something left.

Col: We evacuated everything. We don't have anything left.

Gen: I will come to you tomorrow.

Col: Okay.

Gen: I have a conference at headquarters. Before I attend the conference I will come to you.


--------------------


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Proof? [Re: Revelation]
    #1283119 - 02/05/03 09:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

This story is a little better than yours.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2003060453,00.html
By TREVOR KAVANAGH
Political Editor

SADDAM Hussein was finally nailed as a massive threat to mankind yesterday.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell unveiled PROOF the Iraqi tyrant has weapons of mass destruction ? and PROOF he has links with al-Qa?ida terrorists.

In a powerful speech to the UN Security Council, General Powell used evidence from satellite photos and tapped phone calls to make the case for war against Saddam.

He told how an Osama Bin Laden lieutenant sheltered by Iraq was linked to the ricin poison factory found in North London and the murder of DC Stephen Oake in Manchester.

He said trucks had whisked away material from arms plants before UN inspectors arrived.

And he revealed Saddam tests chemical weapons on Death Row prisoners.

Gen Powell said the world had learned the hard way that tyrants and terrorists are ready to kill on a huge scale. And he added: ?Unless we act, we are confronting an even more frightening future.?



Proof ... Powell


The Secretary of State presented his evidence point by chilling point in his 80-minute speech in New York.

On Saddam?s biological and chemical weapons, he said:

IRAQ had not accounted for 8,500 litres of anthrax it had in 1995.

DEFECTORS from Saddam?s regime had told of 18 trucks and trains used as mobile bio-weapons labs, constantly on the move among other traffic.

FILM of an Iraqi Mirage jet showed that planes were being adapted to spray chemical and biological agents on vast populations below.

UNMANNED aircraft capable of delivering death 300 miles beyond Iraq?s borders had been developed.

HORRIFYING chemical tests on 1,500 Iraqi Death Row prisoners had been reported by an eye-witness.

Gen Powell said: ?They were tied down to beds and experimented upon. There was blood oozing from the victims? mouths. Saddam?s inhumanity has no limits.?

On nuclear weapons, the Secretary of State said:


Clean-up ... satellite evidence shows trucks
taking material away from weapons site
Click pic to enlarge
A SEARCH of an Iraqi scientist?s house had uncovered 2,000 pages of documents, some relating to plans for a nuke programme.

ALUMINIUM tubes found in Iraq showed Saddam wanted to construct A-bombs.

FRONT companies had been used in a bid to buy manufacturing capabilities that could be used to produce material for nuclear weapons. Gen Powell said: ?Saddam has a cadre of scientists with nuclear expertise. He is determined to get his hands on a nuclear bomb.?

On concealment of evidence, Gen Powell said:

MEMBERS of Saddam?s elite Republican Guard were taped discussing the return of UN inspectors and asking if everything had been ?evacuated?.

ANOTHER chat involving a military HQ mulled over ?the possibility there is, by chance, forbidden ammunition?.

AN intercepted phone call appeared to reveal an Iraqi captain being ordered to remove references to nerve agents from wireless communications. A voice says: "They are listening to us. Don't give any evidence that we have these horrible agents."

SATELLITE photos showed cargo trucks removing materials from weapons facilities, including ballistic missile sites, in the days before the resumption of inspections.

IRAQ bulldozed the Al Musayib chemical weapons complex last year and decontaminated the area.

INTELLIGENCE reports described the dispersal of rockets with biological warheads in western Iraq.

SATELLITE photos of a facility at Taji showed 15 munitions bunkers ? of which four containing active chemical weapons were ?cleaned up? before inspectors arrived.

On the deadly terrorist networks harboured by Iraq, Gen Powell said:


Links ... Powell's evidence shows how
al-Zarqawi heads network active in UK
Click pic to enlarge
THE Ansar al-Islam terror network headed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a top henchman of Osama Bin Laden, is based in a Kurdish-controlled area of Iraq in which Saddam has agents.

AL-ZARQAWI went to Baghdad in May last year for medical treatment, staying there for two months, during which his followers set up an operations base in the city.

HIS group is linked to those suspected of the London ricin plot and the DC Oake murder, plotted attacks around Europe and Russia and provided help for the killers of American Lawrence Foley in Jordan last year.

SOME 116 people linked to the group have been arrested around the world on suspicion of terrorist activity.

AL-QA?IDA disciples working with Ansar al-Islam have been operating freely in Baghdad for more than eight months.

SENIOR members of al-Qa?ida and Saddam?s regime had met at least eight times since the early 90s. Bin Laden himself had twice met senior Iraqi intelligence officials, including their boss. Saddam sent agents to Afghanistan in the mid 90s to provide al-Qa?ida with training on document forgery. And he offered chemical and biological weapons training to al-Qa?ida associates in Iraq.

Gen Powell dismissed sceptics who argue that Saddam has no reason to team up with Bin Laden.

He told the Security Council: ?Hatred and ambition is enough to bring al-Qa?ida together.?



Lethal ... image of bio-lab trucks presented to UN


On Saddam?s attempts to prevent Iraqi weapons experts talking to the UN inspectors, Gen Powell said:

SCIENTISTS had been warned their families would face ?serious consequences? if they divulged secrets ? and would be treated as spies if they left Iraq.

A DOZEN scientists were being held under house arrest.

EXPERTS were being replaced at weapons facilities visited by inspectors by workers with no knowledge of weapons of mass destruction. The Secretary of State accused Saddam of carrying out an ?active and systematic effort? to keep key material and people hidden ? a clear breach of UN Resolution 1441.

On the tyrant?s missile capabilities, Gen Powell said:

IRAQ had a ?few dozen? Scud-type missiles like those launched during the Gulf War.

AERIAL photographs showed other missiles were being upgraded to give them an estimated range of 750 miles.

Gen Powell warned that President George Bush will allow nothing to stand in the path of his campaign to disarm Saddam and protect America.

He said: ?The United States will not and cannot run that risk.

?Leaving Saddam in possession of weapons of mass destruction for a few more months or years is not an option. We must not shrink from whatever is ahead of us, or fail in that duty.?



Giveaway ... aluminium tubes tied to nuclear bid


The Secretary of State warned the UN it would ?place itself in danger of irrelevance? if it allowed Iraq to persist in defying its will.

As he spoke, a Sky TV poll showed a massive leap in the number of Britons who are certain Saddam has weapons of mass destruction. Eighty-nine per cent were convinced.

In Baghdad, Iraq?s information minister Mohammad Saeed al-Sahaf accused Gen Powell of making ?hollow allegations? that were nothing new. He described the satellite pictures produced by the Secretary of State as ?nothing different to cartoon films?.


LONDON?S FTSE-100 rose sharply in response to Gen Powell?s dossier ? finishing up 88.6 at 3678.7. Analysts say the market is relieved that uncertainty over a war might soon be over.



--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Proof? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1283201 - 02/05/03 10:30 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quoting The Sun?? The Sun makes me sick.


--------------------
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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Proof? [Re: Revelation]
    #1283209 - 02/05/03 10:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The thing that strikes me about all this evidence is if the US know that things are being moved why cant they keep track of where it is moved to and then tip off the weapons inspectors?

Tangible evidence would be alot more convincing than this flim-flam.


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1283268 - 02/05/03 11:38 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The Sun makes me sick.



It appears anything which doesn't fit your preconceived notions makes you sick. Besides, they just printed what Powell said, it wasn't their evidence so what difference does it make who's story was shown here?

Quote:

The Sun makes me sick.



That explains why you're always in the dark.  :smile:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (02/05/03 11:40 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Proof? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1283274 - 02/05/03 11:46 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The Sun makes me sick for many reasons. It really is a pile of putrid puss. I doubt your an avid reader of tabloid trash either!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Proof? [Re: Cracka_X]
    #1283279 - 02/05/03 11:47 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I liked the way that you CAPITALIZED "choice" words in your article.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 33,778
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1283287 - 02/05/03 11:53 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Your right, I don't read tabloids. My point was that it was just a printed version of what Powell said, not an "Elvis was seen leaving a flying saucer piloted by talking pigs" type story. I think no matter where the posted article had come from, IMO you would have had a negative comment. If not on the source, on the story itself.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Proof? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1283348 - 02/06/03 01:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

there will never be enough proof to satisfy the blind.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Proof? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1283385 - 02/06/03 01:59 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

You call that proof?? As I have already said, If the US have all this info i.e Satelitte recon and are able to bug top Iraqi's how come they cant tip off the inspectors to the location of WMD and thus produce real evidence?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Proof? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1283386 - 02/06/03 02:00 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

There is alot of hot air but no verifiable facts involved in Powells presentation. It hardly justifies war.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Proof? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1283389 - 02/06/03 02:04 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I would have thought "proof" would actually mean photographs of the weapons..not a recorded conversation of people talking about them.

What do we say if one of them sees it?

I'm not very convinced by that. Not convinced enough to support the war, anyway.


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1283397 - 02/06/03 02:14 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

****You call that proof?? ****

that wasn't my point, my point is that it really doesn't matter what we find as evidence, pacifists will never be supportive.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Proof? [Re: Revelation]
    #1283398 - 02/06/03 02:16 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

***I would have thought "proof" would actually mean photographs of the weapons****

thank god they don't call you for permission eh?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Proof? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1283440 - 02/06/03 03:07 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Yes I suppose it was naieve of me to expect hard evidence.


--------------------


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Proof? [Re: Revelation]
    #1283463 - 02/06/03 03:27 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

they have evidence, it's just many choose to ignore it. Not surprising really. If we had Saddam himself on film hiding a missle many would still want MORE proof. So the big question is: WHAT would it take for you and others to finally say YES he's violated the terms of his surrender?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Proof? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1283470 - 02/06/03 03:49 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I dont doubt that Hussein has violated some of the terms of his surrender, I just dont believe this justifies a war. I also think it is only a justification and not the real reason.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1283473 - 02/06/03 03:50 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

****I dont doubt that Hussein has violated some of the terms of his surrender****

some? Which ones hasn't he?

****I just dont believe this justifies a war****

what would justify war then?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (02/06/03 03:58 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Proof? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1283542 - 02/06/03 04:42 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Aggression from Hussein against the US.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Proof? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1283556 - 02/06/03 04:51 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Aggression from Hussein against the US.



This is the correct answer.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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