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Offlineblinkybill
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Spirituality?
    #12811078 - 06/27/10 08:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

What is called spirituality, a nebulous concept at best,  in fact describes a mass retreat from social and political reality:  a futile attempt to fashion from the moribund and the archaic a view of the world that is comforting and easy to digest.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12811156 - 06/27/10 08:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Not just social and political reality but psychological reality as well.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12811329 - 06/27/10 09:30 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You mean like when Buddhists meditate on rotting corpses being torn apart by vultures?

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12811352 - 06/27/10 09:36 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I consider  the base teachings of the Buddha and practices based on those teachings psychological rather than spiritual. Although much of Buddhism is religious and the main reason I'm not a follower.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineblinkybill
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12814241 - 06/27/10 08:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
You mean like when Buddhists meditate on rotting corpses being torn apart by vultures?




This is whats known as the fallacy of extension and is simply invalid. But yeah, the buddhists in my neighbourhood are forever meditating on corpses. And then they all go off together for decaf capuccinos and tofuburgers to talk about the experience.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

Edited by blinkybill (06/27/10 08:14 PM)

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12814354 - 06/27/10 08:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

How so?

The fallacy of OP is Faulty Generalization.

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Offlineblinkybill
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12814451 - 06/27/10 08:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
How so?

The fallacy of OP is Faulty Generalization.




You take the most extreme and rare example of what you call spirituality, knowing that what is generally called spirituality never even approximates your example, and offer this as somehow refuting my statement. Its a bar room way of arguing.

See Diploid's post The Fallacies of Philosophical Debate. Yours is a textbook case!


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12814528 - 06/27/10 08:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My own recognition is the dd.


--------------------

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill] * 2
    #12814565 - 06/27/10 09:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

it may be the most extreme example (I don't think it is), but it is a valid example unless you are limiting your definition of spirituality to your locale or are talking about only some spiritual practices.

I thought you were talking about all spiritual practices, which would include buddhists meditating on rotting corpses.


Perhaps the real error of logic is thinking that something 'nebulous' can be clearly analyzed.

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Offlineblinkybill
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12814590 - 06/27/10 09:10 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
it may be the most extreme example (I don't think it is), but it is a valid example unless you are limiting your definition of spirituality to your locale or are talking about only some spiritual practices.

I thought you were talking about all spiritual practices, which would include buddhists meditating on rotting corpses.


Perhaps the real error of logic is thinking that something 'nebulous' can be clearly analyzed.




Its an extreme and relatively rare example and you know it. You don't argue from the extreme you argue from the broadly representative. My locale is the western world and so is yours so we should probably confine our discussions to what we know.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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OfflineJackofSpades
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12814595 - 06/27/10 09:10 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

science and spirituality (buddhism) overlap as far as i can tell so i dont really see any rift between  the two like the OP suggests. in fact, i see spirituality as deeper embrace of reality, not an escape.



'Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.”

Albert Einstein


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #12814613 - 06/27/10 09:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

It cracks me up when Einstein gets quoted as an authority on philosophy and spirituality. :confused: Just remember some of his cosmological theories were wrong.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineJackofSpades
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12814627 - 06/27/10 09:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
It cracks me up when Einstein gets quoted as an authority on philosophy and spirituality. :confused: Just remember some of his cosmological theories were wrong.




can you name someone who was never wrong?


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #12814634 - 06/27/10 09:15 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JackofSpades said:
in fact, i see spirituality as deeper embrace of reality, not an escape.




:thumbup:
Unfortunately, the world is open for delusional interpretations.


--------------------

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OfflineJackofSpades
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: auxiliary]
    #12814647 - 06/27/10 09:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

JackofSpades said:
in fact, i see spirituality as deeper embrace of reality, not an escape.




:thumbup:
Unfortunately, the world is open for delusional interpretations.




are you saying my statement is delusional or that other people take on delusional perspectives?


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

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Offlineblinkybill
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #12814664 - 06/27/10 09:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JackofSpades said:
science and spirituality (buddhism) overlap as far as i can tell so i dont really see any rift between  the two like the OP suggests. in fact, i see spirituality as deeper embrace of reality, not an escape.



'Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.”

Albert Einstein




Avoids dogma? Surely you jest.
Quote:

JackofSpades said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It cracks me up when Einstein gets quoted as an authority on philosophy and spirituality. :confused: Just remember some of his cosmological theories were wrong.




can you name someone who was never wrong?




You infuriate me. You choose to miss his point, that it is erroneous for you to be quoting Einstein, and respond to what even a child could argue over. Go to the other forum where you belong!


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #12814679 - 06/27/10 09:21 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JackofSpades said:
Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

JackofSpades said:
in fact, i see spirituality as deeper embrace of reality, not an escape.




:thumbup:
Unfortunately, the world is open for delusional interpretations.




are you saying my statement is delusional or that other people take on delusional perspectives?



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!              !


--------------------

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12814688 - 06/27/10 09:22 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
it may be the most extreme example (I don't think it is), but it is a valid example unless you are limiting your definition of spirituality to your locale or are talking about only some spiritual practices.

I thought you were talking about all spiritual practices, which would include buddhists meditating on rotting corpses.


Perhaps the real error of logic is thinking that something 'nebulous' can be clearly analyzed.




Its an extreme and relatively rare example and you know it. You don't argue from the extreme you argue from the broadly representative. My locale is the wesetern world and so is yours so we should probably confine our discussions to what we know.





I see how you feel.

Actually the reason I chose that example is its simple. You talk about 'spirituality' and you are talking about a very complex group of behaviors and beliefs. I thought the example was a clear cut contradiction of what you said, the perfect antithesis for you to more clearly explain your argument by.

Now lets see what happens when I use a more complicated example.

Closest to my locale is my grandmother, a catholic who goes to church every sunday, prays everyday, and reads the bible regularly. She coordinates the food drive to feed poor people, she argues with me about the war in afgahnistan, and she votes. She has many friends in her community, and goes out to lunch with them everyday.

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OfflineJackofSpades
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12814725 - 06/27/10 09:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)


Quote:

JackofSpades said:
science and spirituality (buddhism) overlap as far as i can tell so i dont really see any rift between  the two like the OP suggests. in fact, i see spirituality as deeper embrace of reality, not an escape.



'Buddhism has the characteristics of what would be expected in a cosmic religion for the future: It transcends a personal God, avoids dogmas and theology; it covers both the natural and the spiritual, and it is based on a religious sense aspiring from the experience of all things, natural and spiritual, as a meaningful unity.”

Albert Einstein




Avoids dogma? Surely you jest.
Quote:

JackofSpades said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It cracks me up when Einstein gets quoted as an authority on philosophy and spirituality. :confused: Just remember some of his cosmological theories were wrong.




can you name someone who was never wrong?




You infuriate me. You choose to miss his point, that it is erroneous for you to be quoting Einstein, and respond to what even a child could argue over. Go to the other forum where you belong!




maybe you need to look over what icelander said...

he said that it cracks him up when people use einstein as an authority on spirituality and philosophy because some of his theories were wrong.

i said thats kind of dumb (implied) because there has never been a person who has been correct about anything.

what was wrong about my statement?


also. in terms of dogma...I don't see any problem with dogma in my spirituality, its all founded on personal experience and i constantly question it.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

Edited by JackofSpades (06/27/10 09:32 PM)

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OfflineJackofSpades
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: auxiliary]
    #12814741 - 06/27/10 09:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

JackofSpades said:
Quote:

auxiliary said:
Quote:

JackofSpades said:
in fact, i see spirituality as deeper embrace of reality, not an escape.




:thumbup:
Unfortunately, the world is open for delusional interpretations.




are you saying my statement is delusional or that other people take on delusional perspectives?



!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!______!
!              !





your wisdom and subtly run circles around me


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and  you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: JackofSpades] * 1
    #12814755 - 06/27/10 09:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JackofSpades said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It cracks me up when Einstein gets quoted as an authority on philosophy and spirituality. :confused: Just remember some of his cosmological theories were wrong.




can you name someone who was never wrong?





Zappasgod over in the Political forum. At least according to him.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12814898 - 06/27/10 09:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Too bad he's permabanned now.  :sad:


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
    #12814909 - 06/27/10 09:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That will never happen


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12814919 - 06/27/10 10:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

zappaisgod
Banned: 06/25/10 07:36 PM
Expires: Never
Reason: Other (3 points)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/banlist.php


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlineauxiliary
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: JackofSpades]
    #12814942 - 06/27/10 10:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JackofSpades said:
your wisdom and subtly run circles around me



:nerd:
Stretching is overrated, IMO.


--------------------

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: deCypher]
    #12814943 - 06/27/10 10:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

It was perma? :crying:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlineblinkybill
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12815640 - 06/27/10 11:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
it may be the most extreme example (I don't think it is), but it is a valid example unless you are limiting your definition of spirituality to your locale or are talking about only some spiritual practices.

I thought you were talking about all spiritual practices, which would include buddhists meditating on rotting corpses.


Perhaps the real error of logic is thinking that something 'nebulous' can be clearly analyzed.




Its an extreme and relatively rare example and you know it. You don't argue from the extreme you argue from the broadly representative. My locale is the wesetern world and so is yours so we should probably confine our discussions to what we know.





I see how you feel.

Actually the reason I chose that example is its simple. You talk about 'spirituality' and you are talking about a very complex group of behaviors and beliefs. I thought the example was a clear cut contradiction of what you said, the perfect antithesis for you to more clearly explain your argument by.

Now lets see what happens when I use a more complicated example.

Closest to my locale is my grandmother, a catholic who goes to church every sunday, prays everyday, and reads the bible regularly. She coordinates the food drive to feed poor people, she argues with me about the war in afgahnistan, and she votes. She has many friends in her community, and goes out to lunch with them everyday.




Feeling has nothing to do with it. You're not reading carefully enough.

I am not attempting a definition of the nebulous. I'm arguing that because of this nebulousness,  rather than approach spirituality as a concept to be defined, view it as the sociological phenomenon that it is: a phenomenon characterised by resort to the moribund (i.e. catholicism) and to the archaic (i.e. buddhism).

Between the spiritual subject and their immediate social and political context there exists an aggregate of redundant ideas originating in, and suited exclusively to, pre-modern and feudal societies (and because this is a mass phenomenon it is of serious concern to all who care about the future).

As for your grandmother ... i'm sure she's a wonderful woman, however, she believes that when she dies she's going to heaven (see Harp Dreams). This form of escapism softens and obscures the full implications and complications of human responsibility. Unfortunately, this has consequences for the rest of us.

In defense of spirituality the question to pose (i would have thought)  would be - Does spirituality require roots in the archaic and the fantastical? Or is this what makes it spirituality, as distinct from reality.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

Edited by blinkybill (06/28/10 01:58 AM)

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill] * 2
    #12816921 - 06/28/10 09:11 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I understand what you're getting at and I agree with it in many cases.

The implication of what you are saying is that any pursuit of spirituality can only lead to detachment from social and political reality.

But I would say that spirituality can do just the opposite. Before humans had domesticated animals and learned to cultivate plants, they were hunter gatherers. Animals were an extremely important source of food, a complete mystery and thus a major problem constantly on their minds, evidenced by the predominance of animals in prehistoric paintings. It is perfectly appropriate that the spiritual practices of 'primitive' people have much to do with animals. But the practices are not limited to animals and the need for food, they also include initiation rites and maintaining the history (mythological or otherwise) of the society through story telling.

When humans learned to control plants and animals, they were no longer mysterious, and the problem shifted from finding animals to dealing with weather and the change of seasons. Closely correlated with the change of seasons is the change of the night sky, and thus from the Aztecs to the Zoroastrians religions become concerned with cosmology. Mysterious events such as eclipses take on importance.

Another consequence of plant and animal domestication is the appearance of larger cities, and the need for organized groups of people to work together. In these societies the priesthood rises to political power, with the king not only being a spiritual leader, but in most cases being considered a god or god/human. Again this is socially and politically relevant.

Just like the transition from primitive to agrarian societies, technology is responsible for our current transition, which I would say starts with the publication of Copernicus' De revolutionibus orbium coelestium, continued by Galileo, Newton, Einstein, and the rest of them. They explained the cosmos and contradicted the conclusions of agrarian societies.

With the advent of the industrial revolution, growing crops is no longer a problem, and astrology astronomy has demystified the cosmos. It took a while, but a Nietzsche said, "God is dead", and though it bothered people, they listened to it and repeated it till it became an aphorism.



I would say the next great problem and mystery is our own psychology. I know that I am personally not limited by lack of food or forced to be a peasant by lack of technology. I am only limited by my self (this is the myth of The New World), and since science and technology do not yet enable people to understand themselves and reach their full potential, they are forced to use tools that cannot be explained with logic. This is why there is such an interest in meditation, yoga, astrology, psychoanalysis, Buddhist psychology...

Edited by Freedom (06/28/10 10:02 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12816929 - 06/28/10 09:13 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

and astrology has demystified the cosmos.

I hope you meant astronomy.:whoa:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12816979 - 06/28/10 09:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Whoops, at least I didn't mix up cosmology and cosmetology :cool:

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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12816989 - 06/28/10 09:33 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:bjlips:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12816997 - 06/28/10 09:35 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12817019 - 06/28/10 09:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12823556 - 06/29/10 01:35 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

No response?

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12827656 - 06/30/10 08:25 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:

The implication of what you are saying is that any pursuit of spirituality can only lead to detachment from social and political reality.





That is not at all the implication of what I'm saying. You don't read carefully and you write too much. If you were not so passionate i would say that this does not augur well for your future education.

Now as it happens i have spiritual beliefs. You'll notice that in my post i do not say spirituality per se but, instead, 'what is called spirituality'. This would have alerted a skilled reader to the fact that i was in no way criticising spirituality. It was my intention to allow the normal predictable and lame disputes to take place, and then to write about what spirituality is, or at least what it could be if it wasn't being ruined by the worst kinds of people with the worst kinds of ideas.


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12827664 - 06/30/10 08:30 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I'd like to see your case for the "real" spirituality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12827673 - 06/30/10 08:34 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah so you can shit on it. You'd need to read it more carefully than you read the synopsis of the harvard study on morally motivated behaviours.


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" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12827693 - 06/30/10 08:44 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Freedom said:

The implication of what you are saying is that any pursuit of spirituality can only lead to detachment from social and political reality.





That is not at all the implication of what I'm saying. You don't read carefully and you write too much. If you were not so passionate i would say that this does not augur well for your future education.

Now as it happens i have spiritual beliefs. You'll notice that in my post i do not say spirituality per se but, instead, 'what is called spirituality'. This would have alerted a skilled reader to the fact that i was in no way criticising spirituality. It was my intention to allow the normal predictable and lame disputes to take place, and then to write about what spirituality is, or at least what it could be if it wasn't being ruined by the worst kinds of people with the worst kinds of ideas.



the problem with your logic is that you believe your opinion is fact. If you drop that and start all over again may still have a chance and gaining some "real" understanding. (opinion not fact)


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #12827717 - 06/30/10 08:51 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Olympus Mons said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Freedom said:

The implication of what you are saying is that any pursuit of spirituality can only lead to detachment from social and political reality.





That is not at all the implication of what I'm saying. You don't read carefully and you write too much. If you were not so passionate i would say that this does not augur well for your future education.

Now as it happens i have spiritual beliefs. You'll notice that in my post i do not say spirituality per se but, instead, 'what is called spirituality'. This would have alerted a skilled reader to the fact that i was in no way criticising spirituality. It was my intention to allow the normal predictable and lame disputes to take place, and then to write about what spirituality is, or at least what it could be if it wasn't being ruined by the worst kinds of people with the worst kinds of ideas.



the problem with your logic is that you believe your opinion is fact. If you drop that and start all over again may still have a chance and gaining some "real" understanding. (opinion not fact)




Factual philosophy? Haven't heard of that one. Is this an example of your real understanding?


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InvisibleOlympus Mons
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12827902 - 06/30/10 10:01 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

you forgot the quotation


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
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I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #12827956 - 06/30/10 10:20 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't quote mysticism in this forum. It would be disrespectful.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

Edited by blinkybill (06/30/10 10:21 AM)

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InvisibleOlympus Mons
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12827967 - 06/30/10 10:25 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

haha. makes no sense.


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I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #12828038 - 06/30/10 10:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:laugh2:


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12828078 - 06/30/10 10:53 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)



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β˜…β˜…β˜… β˜…

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: the human abstract]
    #12828219 - 06/30/10 11:21 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

What is called spirituality has become as corrupt and as deluded as America itself and poets cry themselves to sleep
.
But thankfully in its essence spirituality has very little to do with the mΓ©lange of populist platitudes and pleasing fictions that have come to be associated with its name.

And thoroughly contaminated, as it is,  by an infantile dreaming characteristic of commodity culture, it has become necessary to speak of what spirituality is not if its essential meaning is to be retrieved: it is not the supernatural, it is not the archaic, it is not the therapeutic,  it is not a well-spring of secret knowledge or power, and it is without text and without teacher.. Spirituality is an ethics of radical non-violence, a protest against useless suffering.


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InvisibleOlympus Mons
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12828280 - 06/30/10 11:33 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

useless, again that's your opinion.


--------------------
I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12828282 - 06/30/10 11:33 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
You'll notice that in my post i do not say spirituality per se but, instead, 'what is called spirituality'. This would have alerted a skilled reader to the fact that i was in no way criticising spirituality.




How can you say that a definition of a word is other than how it is generally described, or "what [it] is called"?

"What is called spirituality" = "Every description of spirituality"

So the meaning of your sentence is that 'every description of spirituality' describes a practice that removes one from social reality. Perhaps you mean that the only valid spiritual practices are those that are not described.

If that is what you wanted to convey, or if it was something else, I suggest you write directly with clarity instead of playing games. Otherwise it appears you are deliberately misleading people.

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12828305 - 06/30/10 11:37 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Spirituality is an ethics of radical non-violence, a protest against useless suffering.





Now you have called spirituality something, so according to your logic "an ethics of radical non-violence, a protest against usless suffering" is just "a futile attempt to fashion from the moribund and the archaic a view of the world that is comforting and easy to digest."

Edited by Freedom (06/30/10 11:45 AM)

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12828923 - 06/30/10 01:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Yeah so you can shit on it. You'd need to read it more carefully than you read the synopsis of the harvard study on morally motivated behaviours.




Quit stalling.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12829061 - 06/30/10 02:16 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i think "spirituality" simply stems from the innate feeling that there is something "more"


beyond that, it's all individual variables, including what is meant by "more"


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: the bizzle]
    #12829760 - 06/30/10 04:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That's nice and vague. Something more as in more information to learn or something more as in pie in the sky? And if it's more to learn well that's not spirituality as it's used around here.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12829818 - 06/30/10 04:32 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
You'll notice that in my post i do not say spirituality per se but, instead, 'what is called spirituality'. This would have alerted a skilled reader to the fact that i was in no way criticising spirituality.




How can you say that a definition of a word is other than how it is generally described, or "what [it] is called"?

"What is called spirituality" = "Every description of spirituality"

So the meaning of your sentence is that 'every description of spirituality' describes a practice that removes one from social reality. Perhaps you mean that the only valid spiritual practices are those that are not described.

If that is what you wanted to convey, or if it was something else, I suggest you write directly with clarity instead of playing games. Otherwise it appears you are deliberately misleading people.




You don't argue you contradict. You show little to no familiarity with philosophical discourse but you just keep on going as if that was only a minor drawback.  If i was to say "What is called reality" you would immediately know that i was suggesting that reality was in fact something other. This is because you're all too familiar with adolescent 'stoner' critiques of reality. But you're not alert to critiques of the sacred cows of your sub-culture. You're so busy telling yourself that you've glimpsed something profound via psychedelics you're unable to see how close-minded you are. Take off the blinkers and get humble.


--------------------
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Olympus Mons]
    #12829844 - 06/30/10 04:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Olympus Mons said:
useless, again that's your opinion.




How shortsighted and utilitarian. I expected more from you of all people.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12830085 - 06/30/10 05:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That's nice and vague. Something more as in more information to learn or something more as in pie in the sky? And if it's more to learn well that's not spirituality as it's used around here.




considering the spectrum of definitions for "spirituality", to be any more specific would only be targeting one or a few of those definitions.


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: the bizzle]
    #12830098 - 06/30/10 05:29 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:ass: cop out.

You used the word and can't/won't define it.

Being demolished by Icelander can come to be fun. You'll see.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12830338 - 06/30/10 06:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You either define it or cease to use it because of its very vagueness. Most prefer to imagine that others 'know what i mean'. It ain't so.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12830343 - 06/30/10 06:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
What is called spirituality, a nebulous concept at best,  in fact describes a mass retreat from social and political reality:  a futile attempt to fashion from the moribund and the archaic a view of the world that is comforting and easy to digest.




If its a nebulous concept at best, what is it at worst?

It is confused to attempt to jumble it together and observe as a whole.

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: teknix]
    #12830350 - 06/30/10 06:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I can't eat the entire pie but a slice at a time.

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12830396 - 06/30/10 06:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

No, that was not a cop out...for once in this forum, I feel I may have actually said what I meant well enough. It's really quite simple

lol, and you are asking me to define "more", when I pretty much said that the definition of "more" is dependent upon the variables for the individual.

Surely you can do better than resort to antagonism all the time.

but if you really need a definition I guess I'd say by "more" I mean "more than ourselves." Maybe my own definition of spirituality is a little more elaborate but I really don't see the point, how can I really define something that means something different to everybody?


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12830607 - 06/30/10 06:46 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
You'll notice that in my post i do not say spirituality per se but, instead, 'what is called spirituality'. This would have alerted a skilled reader to the fact that i was in no way criticising spirituality.




How can you say that a definition of a word is other than how it is generally described, or "what [it] is called"?

"What is called spirituality" = "Every description of spirituality"

So the meaning of your sentence is that 'every description of spirituality' describes a practice that removes one from social reality. Perhaps you mean that the only valid spiritual practices are those that are not described.

If that is what you wanted to convey, or if it was something else, I suggest you write directly with clarity instead of playing games. Otherwise it appears you are deliberately misleading people.




You don't argue you contradict. You show little to no familiarity with philosophical discourse but you just keep on going as if that was only a minor drawback.  If i was to say "What is called reality" you would immediately know that i was suggesting that reality was in fact something other. This is because you're all too familiar with adolescent 'stoner' critiques of reality. But you're not alert to critiques of the sacred cows of your sub-culture. You're so busy telling yourself that you've glimpsed something profound via psychedelics you're unable to see how close-minded you are. Take off the blinkers and get humble.




What do you mean when you say I don't argue but contradict?

I'm not here to play games. Are you? Drop the bullshit, take me at face value, stay on topic and perhaps we can learn something from one another. I am not here for ad hominem or for you to project your fantasyland ideas about my personality or knowledge.

Edited by Freedom (06/30/10 06:48 PM)

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: the bizzle]
    #12830749 - 06/30/10 07:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

the bizzle said:
No, that was not a cop out...for once in this forum, I feel I may have actually said what I meant well enough. It's really quite simple

lol, and you are asking me to define "more", when I pretty much said that the definition of "more" is dependent upon the variables for the individual.

Surely you can do better than resort to antagonism all the time.

but if you really need a definition I guess I'd say by "more" I mean "more than ourselves." Maybe my own definition of spirituality is a little more elaborate but I really don't see the point, how can I really define something that means something different to everybody?





Everything means something slightly different to everybody. That never stopped you.

My advice is to drop the word from your common vocabulary.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineblinkybill
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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12832430 - 07/01/10 12:10 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
You'll notice that in my post i do not say spirituality per se but, instead, 'what is called spirituality'. This would have alerted a skilled reader to the fact that i was in no way criticising spirituality.




How can you say that a definition of a word is other than how it is generally described, or "what [it] is called"?

"What is called spirituality" = "Every description of spirituality"

So the meaning of your sentence is that 'every description of spirituality' describes a practice that removes one from social reality. Perhaps you mean that the only valid spiritual practices are those that are not described.

If that is what you wanted to convey, or if it was something else, I suggest you write directly with clarity instead of playing games. Otherwise it appears you are deliberately misleading people.




You don't argue you contradict. You show little to no familiarity with philosophical discourse but you just keep on going as if that was only a minor drawback.  If i was to say "What is called reality" you would immediately know that i was suggesting that reality was in fact something other. This is because you're all too familiar with adolescent 'stoner' critiques of reality. But you're not alert to critiques of the sacred cows of your sub-culture. You're so busy telling yourself that you've glimpsed something profound via psychedelics you're unable to see how close-minded you are. Take off the blinkers and get humble.




What do you mean when you say I don't argue but contradict?

I'm not here to play games. Are you? Drop the bullshit, take me at face value, stay on topic and perhaps we can learn something from one another. I am not here for ad hominem or for you to project your fantasyland ideas about my personality or knowledge.



The best solution is to just stop entering into the discussion. I read your posts on other threads and your contributions are wonderful. For some reason on this one you continue to nitpick and overlook the point, and if you don't think there's a point then move on. I'd like to continue to develop this thread and you seem hellbent on not letting that happen.


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12833358 - 07/01/10 07:38 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

:hissyfit: Get over yourself dood. If you don't like what he has to contribute then ignore it and discuss with others. Nobodies making you respond to him. Geesh!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12841676 - 07/02/10 08:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The courteous solution would be, as re: the forum rules, if you have nothing to contribute, and are not interested in genuine discussion, then stay out of the thread. Of course, this would mean that you I-slander would have no legitimate reason for being here at all.


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12841704 - 07/02/10 08:14 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Spitituality appears within the excellence of the interhuman order when all claims to dominance and sovereignty are renounced.


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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12841904 - 07/02/10 09:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

blinkybill said:
The courteous solution would be, as re: the forum rules, if you have nothing to contribute, and are not interested in genuine discussion, then stay out of the thread. Of course, this would mean that you I-slander would have no legitimate reason for being here at all.




:ass: How's that for courteous.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12841914 - 07/02/10 09:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

to me, when I look at everything I've come across that's represented as 'spirituality', what holds water is aligning one's consciousness with what is meaningful.

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Re: Spirituality? [Re: Freedom]
    #12842144 - 07/02/10 09:44 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Everyone does that.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineblinkybill
outsider


Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 246
Loc: Albania Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12849762 - 07/04/10 10:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

blinkybill said:
The courteous solution would be, as re: the forum rules, if you have nothing to contribute, and are not interested in genuine discussion, then stay out of the thread. Of course, this would mean that you I-slander would have no legitimate reason for being here at all.




:ass: How's that for courteous.




Much better. Now was that so hard?


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spirituality? [Re: blinkybill]
    #12849771 - 07/04/10 10:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

No I'll remember it for next time.:ass:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Registered: 09/16/08
Posts: 11,953
Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12849912 - 07/04/10 11:37 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Spirituality is a guide to life and death, for those who seek and or need it.

I think peoples fear of god makes the world a nicer place.

I think people seeking to better themselves makes the world a better place.

I also believe that it may ease one's death with hope.

I don't see much of a negative aspect, there are different levels of mind.

It is only the indivisables that I have any complaints about.

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Offlineintrospector
Voyager
Male User Gallery


Registered: 06/29/10
Posts: 101
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Spirituality? [Re: teknix]
    #12850484 - 07/05/10 04:05 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Organised religion is something which attempts to explain natural phenomena with archaic ideology; however, I don't believe spirituality of all sorts to be false and inherently specious. Psychedelics have made me see there is a whole other side to reality which deserves exploration, and some of it can't be explained; personally I believe in the spiritual nature of humans, plants and animals. When on mushies the natural world just has this aura of mystery and wonder, as opposed to things like houses/structures/words and concepts which are man-made and feel artifical and staid by comparision when tripping.


--------------------

Trippin slippin so many emotions all rolled into one sensory ocean impossible feelings kneeling at the altar to the psychedelic trance may the mushroom never falter:mushroom2::eek::stoned::tongue2:

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spirituality? [Re: teknix]
    #12850696 - 07/05/10 07:17 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

teknix said:
Spirituality is a guide to life and death, for those who seek and or need it.

I think peoples fear of god makes the world a nicer place.

I think people seeking to better themselves makes the world a better place.

I also believe that it may ease one's death with hope.

I don't see much of a negative aspect, there are different levels of mind.

It is only the indivisables that I have any complaints about.





One can use other and imo more beneficial means as a guide to life and death.

And fear making people ACT nicer may be true but what a sad statement it makes about people.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Spirituality? [Re: introspector]
    #12850700 - 07/05/10 07:19 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

introspector said:
Organised religion is something which attempts to explain natural phenomena with archaic ideology; however, I don't believe spirituality of all sorts to be false and inherently specious. Psychedelics have made me see there is a whole other side to reality which deserves exploration, and some of it can't be explained; personally I believe in the spiritual nature of humans, plants and animals. When on mushies the natural world just has this aura of mystery and wonder, as opposed to things like houses/structures/words and concepts which are man-made and feel artifical and staid by comparision when tripping.





While I do agree there is more to life than we think I'm suspicious that your differentiation between plants and houses comes more from personal bias than reality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlineblinkybill
outsider


Registered: 06/21/10
Posts: 246
Loc: Albania Flag
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Spirituality? [Re: Icelander]
    #12853385 - 07/05/10 07:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

For the violent man the only element sought in another is the weakness that betrays his person. The man of violence is the degree zero of spirituality.  He acts as if he were alone to act, as if the rest of the universe were there only to receive his actions.  But the violent man never grows out of himself - he takes, he possesses - but remains a stranger to the intimacy that lies at the heart of the spiritual life.


--------------------
" ... and then there are the unknown unknowns. Those things that we don't know that we don't know that we don't know."

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