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OfflineJackal
Well Versed In Etiquette
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Registered: 10/16/02
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Life's a sim and then you're deleted!
    #1275891 - 02/03/03 10:26 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

No need to wait for Matrix 2 to come out. You could already be living in a giant computer simulation.


OF COURSE you thought The Matrix was fiction. But only because you were meant to. Do you think they're stupid enough to let us realise what's really going on?

It usually takes a conspiracy theorist to hatch such a far-fetched plot. But Nick Bostrom is a philosopher at Yale University, and he believes the Hollywood blockbuster is closer to the truth than many of us would care to believe. He's done the calculations, and he reckons that we could well be living inside a simulation.

That's right. Your life might actually be a computer program developed by a post-human society living in what you think of as the future.

In a paper submitted to the journal Mind, Bostrom has outlined exactly how he reached this chilling conclusion. The reasoning starts with one simple premise. At some point, civilisation will develop enormously powerful computers capable of mimicking what we call consciousness. And if that premise is true, the rest follows logically.

Outrageous? Not a bit of it. Look at it rationally. If it becomes technologically possible to mimic consciousness, the future can only pan out in one of three ways. First, some extinction event - maybe a powerful but deadly technology, maybe a natural disaster - will wipe us out before we actually do it. If that's true, then you can relax. What you're experiencing right now is real life.

The second scenario is also a comforting one: future humans won't be interested in running simulations. They might be too sophisticated to bother with such games, or there may be laws against it. But do either of those noble outcomes sound like a probable future of human civilisation to you? Thought not.

Which leaves us with the least palatable option: humans will one day simulate consciousness, and then go on to create simulated Universes for it to live in. If that's true then the chances are they've already done so, and you're living in one.

OK, it's just possible that you're part of the pre-simulation real world - what Bostrom calls the "original history". But given how many simulations there'll be, the probability of that is very slim. All things considered, Bostrom says, the probability that you're living in a simulation is "close to unity". "I think the argument is watertight," he says.

Any logical argument, of course, is only as good as its premises. But Bostrom has got that covered too. Imagine that we do indeed live in the "original history". How likely is it that we're on the trajectory leading to computers that can mimic consciousness?

According to Bostrom, very, very likely. All you need is to discover the particular type of computational processes that leads to what we call consciousness. "A computer running a suitable program would be conscious," Bostrom says. Roboticist Hans Moravec of Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh has worked out that, whatever the "suitable program" turns out to be, emulating a mind would take about 10^14 operations per second. That seems like a lot now - today's fastest computers struggle to get above 10^12 operations per second - but we're heading in the right direction.

Big thinkers

As Bostrom points out, big thinkers such as Ray Kurzweil and Eric Drexler already argue that we haven't yet squeezed the full potential out of our existing computing resources. Today's nanotechnology would let us build a system the size of a sugar cube that would perform 10^21 operations per second. And a computer with a mass equivalent to a large planet could do 10^42 operations per second. We might even be building such systems by the end of the century. Even if we discount the possibility that new physics could lead to super-powerful methods of computing, our current technology is already leading us towards a mind-emulating future.

Once there's enough computing power to simulate consciousness, creating an environment for it to interact with will be child's play. For one thing, simulating an entire Universe down to the minutest level would be a waste of resources. You would only need to simulate to a degree where the universe's inhabitants didn't notice any irregularities (remember those "disturbances" in the matrix). So, for example, there'd be no point filling in every microscopic detail, or the minutiae of distant astronomical objects, until someone decided to look at them. Then the creators could fill in the necessary details on an ad hoc basis.

Obviously, the view has to be convincing, but there's no way the observer can know how these things ought to look or behave. It's quite likely a consciousness looking at odd features in the microscopic world of atoms and electrons would accept any bizarre irregularities at this level as "just the way things are".

If you've ever wrestled with the weird nature of quantum mechanics, alarm bells may just be starting to ring...

So what shall we do? Bostrom thinks we should keep calm and act normally; there's certainly no need to flip out. "Anyone who started to change their life because of this would be a mad loony," he says.

But Robin Hanson, an economist at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia, doesn't agree. He argues that you should alter your behaviour radically: if your life is just a computer simulation, you need to do everything possible to make sure you're not deleted.

First you need to work out the purpose of the simulation. If it's for entertainment then you'd better make sure you're part of the fun. What that means varies across cultures, so to be safe you should be funny, outrageous, violent, sexy, strange, pathetic and heroic all at once - "in a word 'dramatic'," Hanson says.

If the simulation is for the creator to participate in, then they're probably going to want to rub shoulders with the rich and famous, or even play a famous person. So you'd better be the life and soul of the party, and - most important of all - suck up to celebrities. But if the simulation is for the creator to play God, punishing and rewarding minions' behaviour, you'll do well to live a blameless life instead.

And one more thing: don't be tempted to breathe a word about this to anyone. Hanson says that if everyone knows they're in a simulation, the whole thing will start to look stilted and staged, and the creator is likely to pull the plug. Keep it to yourself, or tell only a few close friends. Then you can get on with finding a purpose to your so-called lives: escaping.

Entertaining though it might be, Bostrom thinks Hanson's advice is useless because it's almost impossible to work out what our world is for. "We don't have any direct access to how the simulators set it up," he says. "The least misleading advice would be to get on with your business as you would have done before."

He even thinks it would be OK for everyone to know what's going on. "Presumably in the original history there were people who had these crazy ideas," he says. "If you were trying to run as realistic simulation as you could, you wouldn't want to ban that."

Maybe he's right. After all, millions of us sat through The Matrix without them pulling the plug on us. And nobody panicked at the idea that the Earth was a simulation created by a future civilisation intent on tapping our bodies for energy. But what did Bostrom think when the film came out? Was he impressed by its veracity? Not really. "Using humans as an energy source is ridiculously implausible," he says. "But that's Hollywood for you."



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OfflineSlaveAvSolen
Stranger
Registered: 02/02/03
Posts: 1
Last seen: 14 years, 3 months
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1276030 - 02/03/03 11:54 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Hi there, I'm new here. And i think you've got a point. But I belive that the simulated world we live in is "natural". A place for our souls to learn, and get wiser. I think that it may be many such worlds as the one we live in. Not all with humans, maybe elves and other creatures. This information I've discovered during meditation, listening to other people, and mostly believing.

This is my world, that is your's?




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I can't say things totu is my meaning


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: SlaveAvSolen]
    #1277235 - 02/04/03 09:21 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I'm with you SlaveAvSolen.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1277300 - 02/04/03 09:47 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Who cares. Conciousness is conciosness. We're all eventually going to be "deleted" (ie:die) eventually. It all comes down to wether there is a continuation of consciousness after death or not. I can't see how this would effect people's beleif structures in anyway. Simulated world or not the same questions remain, and we are not likely to find all the answers in either world.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineA Robot who can love
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/03
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Loc: Liverpool, England
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1277513 - 02/04/03 10:56 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

If it is true and we are in some simulation, the question i am most concerned with is what is our purpose,this question brings to mind the book hitchikers guide to the galaxy in which mice created the earth as some experiment to find the meaning of life. If this world has been created to find the meaning of life, and our not asking the question WHY is the only way to conclusively find the meaning, then havent we already failed?. If we have indeed failed then why are we still here ?, is there another reason, another goal we must fulfill before we are turned off, Armageddon ?.
Does it even matter if we are being run by some divine being, as we are all being run by our governments all over the world, the powers that be control our lives and theres nothing we can do but except it or face the consequences of the society we live in. We as a people will have to accept our fate no matter who is in charge or go live in a mountain eating leaves an shit, without toilet paper.


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: A Robot who can love]
    #1277667 - 02/04/03 11:52 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Wheter it's a simulation or not the question "what is our purpose" reamains. Maybe there is no "purpose". Maybe the "purpose" of life is to live.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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Offlinerecalcitrant
My Own God

Registered: 04/20/02
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: 3eyedgod]
    #1277674 - 02/04/03 11:54 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

maybe the meanign of life is to jump up and down on one leg screaming "gret gert gret gert steeeeeeee"

the point is, you dont fucking know!


--------------------

We have to answer our own prayers


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: recalcitrant]
    #1278048 - 02/04/03 01:46 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

LOL :grin:


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineStrumpling
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Registered: 10/11/02
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1278240 - 02/04/03 02:40 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"Life's a sim and then you're deleted!"

Well if you kick some ass, then "they" might not delete you :wink:


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
Posts: 886
Loc: Hell
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1278653 - 02/04/03 04:20 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yet one more person, who can see that it's possible for a reallife matrix like scenerio.

YOU WOULD BE INTERESTED IN ONE OF MY EARLER POSTS!!!!

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum11&Number=1231174&page=4&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Titled "the second coming of christ", it talks about a reallife matrix like scenerio



--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1279106 - 02/04/03 06:08 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)



the way i see it. apply this to many different aspects of thought and your bool expression will come back true. The matrix changed my life, i saw what i had never seen before. And ive made sure since that day that i try not to trust everything and remember there is still some shit un answered and that our daily lives these things we call "reality" may not in fact be all that real at all. At deoxy.org there is an article about the death of symbolism, the matrix is symbols through and through balls to bone. What characterizes your thought? actuals actions and experience or simply representations of those experiences. thats memory for you, but ive come to gather something much deeper when i encounter an experience. i capture and essence the soul of something. When i look out into the world i see souless meaning everywhere, i see paper maeche (sp?) people, paper maeche lives, paper maeche realities. thats a matrix, thats a matrix people live in, thats a matrix people create. all together i would call it the hub matrix and that is which dictates our "space monkey" existance, we simply live to the fate of the mass program language. we cant break through and we learn in society and progress through a slow time consuming trickling waste. there are few like us for ex. here on the shroomery who are out here to experience to by pass the matrix reality and see to the soul and essence of life and existance. i guess in short i think our world lacks complete directness. when i think of our world i think of the code on the matrix, sure i "see" shit but thats all it is its really shit and the code all it is is code and pictures, its a face for life for values for understanding. sometimes i can bend and break it, but most of the time im a slave like anyone else which cant make a great effect on the system as a whole.  on fusion anomaly there are articles imo which delve greatly into this. but im wondering if this 2 dimensional code is just simply the under layer for the 3d experience, and that 4th dimensional awarness is comprised of 3 dimensional or multi layered thought forms. nice post, im glad someone brought this up, i had been reflecting on it more lately.

together we are a ship riding into next stage of evolution


the shroom is our red pill :wink: :laugh:.

 


--------------------
What?


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 9 years, 10 months
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1279158 - 02/04/03 06:21 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Good post. I agree with what you said.

fusion anomaly

What is that?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Murex]
    #1279403 - 02/04/03 07:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

thanks man

www.fusionanomaly.net   :laugh:


--------------------
What?


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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1280111 - 02/05/03 03:45 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

ok how does this guy think that he can tell the probability of if we are living in 'original history' or a simulation?
how does he prove that more time has gone by than we think?

if you ask me it's a total toss-up. it's basically infinity, we could be anywhere in time right now, there is no probable spot we are at.

hell I may as well say that we've gone through a million simulations like that and eventually the sun has burnt up everything and life has started over again. if you look at time on a big enough spectrum (infinity) then it's kinda ridiculous to claim to know where we're at

did that make sense?


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OfflinePhluck
Carpal Tunnel
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Registered: 04/11/99
Posts: 11,393
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1280159 - 02/05/03 04:17 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What he worked out is, "in theory, it's possible that we're all part of a huge computer simulation".

Which is different from evidence that we actually are part of a huge computer simulation.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineEvilGir
Im the on coming storm

Registered: 11/26/01
Posts: 1,301
Loc: Planet Irk
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Phluck]
    #1280351 - 02/05/03 05:44 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

So do we all get unplugged at 2012 and find out we are a reptilian insectoid race that has just been in suspended animation for 4 million years. That would explain alot  :smile:.

But I think reality in a way is a computer generated world this is because everthing can be made into a mathamaticle equation. The matrix Ideas can be related to buddism, in that this place is a trap created by our own mind and once the mind can be controlled you can controll reality to some exstent. As for the red pill I will take 300 please. 


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Fighting the man the best way I can.


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Anonymous

Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: EvilGir]
    #1281888 - 02/05/03 02:18 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Only if a computer can simulate soul energy and create random thoughts. I know for fact I'm not in a computer simulation, through dreams and life.
PERHAPS, if my 'real' self was in another world controlling my simulated Earth self then I might as well play better than all the rest. I'm damn good at video games.
But...until then the only belief I have that comes close to that is 'God' using manifested matter around his infinite energy to learn.


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Anonymous

Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1283127 - 02/05/03 09:47 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The Matrix.

For most of us, there is an intuitive sense that there is something more to our existence that our interaction with the sensate world. In fact, I think that there are clues found in various branches of knowledge that lend themselves to the possibility that the Matrix does indeed exist. Those clues are in themselves abstruse concepts that are not easily explained in the context of the medium that we enjoy on the Shroomery. At some time I might type them up and try to explain them in the simplest terms. For now let me make a few comments on the movie, The Matrix, and then we can continue with the discussion of whether we exist or if there are any overarching universal truths.

There is a fatal flaw of reasoning in the movie and it is this:

In the movie, Neo is led down a rabbit hole to discover that this reality is just a construct, a computer program fed into our minds by machines. How do we know that is not the case? The answer is found in the movie itself. When Morpheus was explaining how he knew about the matrix, he told Neo, "There are fields, endless fields Neo, where humans are no longer born, we are grown. For the longest time, I wouldn't believe it and then I saw the fields with my own eyes, watch them liquefy the dead so they could be fed intravenously to the living and standing there facing the pure horrifying precision I came to realize the obviousness of the truth."

So what did Morpheus use to reach this startling conclusion? He saw the fields with his own eyes. He used his senses. Just like we do when we look at the world. That's how he knew and that's how we know. We know that the world is real because we have seen it.


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OfflineMAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: Jackal]
    #1283317 - 02/06/03 12:18 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"Where should my blood be spilled ?"
"We're under attack"

... Warcraft 3, anyone :grin:?

We began evolving our 3D visual hardware for the masses back in 1996.
Where are we now ?

ATI Radeon 9700

"SMOOTHVISION II
SMOOTHVISION II is basically the name ATI has put on it's Anti-Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering engines.

Of the two, I find the AA engine the most visually impressive. It does Multi-Sampling using an algorithm with 2, 4, or 6 samples per pixel and a programmable jitter table for custom sample patterns.

The 9700 Pro makes use of a very fast Anti-Aliasing technique known as Multi-Sampling. Whereas Super-Sampling basically oversamples a frame then downsamples it again to get rid of jaggies, Multi-Sampling instead samples the Z-Buffer at each location to determine how much of each pixel is being covered by a polygon. If the pixel is only partially covered, it's colour will be blended with whatever colour is behind it. The sample pattern can be either RGMS (Rotated Grid Multi-Sampling), OGMS (Ordered Grid Multi-Sampling), or PJMS (Programmable Jittered Multi-Sampling). The fact that Multi-Sampling doesn't render multiple copies of an image is the reason why it's so much faster than normal Super-Sampling. The disadvantage with Multi-Sampling is that it doesn't process textures. Most notable are alpha transparent textures which don't get any jaggie relief from Multi-Sampling. ATI stated earlier in the launch of the 9700 Pro that it had a solution to the alpha transparent texture problem with regard to Multi-Sampling, but as of right now there is still no word on how they are doing it, or if the solution even exists for that matter.

HYPERZ III []. It uses HyperZ IIIs loss-less Z compression to compress the sampled Z values used in Multi-Sampling which dramatically increases AA performance. The compression ratio ranges from 2:1 to 4:1 which allows virtually free 2x Anti-Aliasing and 4x AA with a relatively minimal hit on framerates.
HYPERZ III is made up of four parts, three of them - Hierarchical Z, Z Compression, and Fast Z Clear - were available in earlier versions of HyperZ. The third, Early Z Test, is unique to HyperZ III. To render a 3D scene properly you need to know the distance of every object from the players perspective. Distance information is stored in a place called the Z Buffer or Depth Buffer. This information is used to determine which object should be drawn in front of other objects.

TRUFORM II

Return to Castle Wolfenstein 
TRUFORM is ATIs implementation of Higher Order Surface technology. What it basically does is add more triangles to the polygons of 3D models and terrain, thus creating a smoother appearance.
The Radeon 9700 Pro includes the next step in the evolution of Truform, cleverly dubbed TRUFORM II. Rather than being limited to fixed Integer based tessellation levels as with the original Truform, Truform II can now use floating point fractional based levels for even smoother tessellation. Also supported is an adaptive tessellation option. Think of it as mip mapping for Higher Order Surface technology. The farther away an object is, the less tessellation it will receive. Nearby objects will receive more polygons while more distant ones will receive less, thus increasing performance while maintaining visual quality. Unfortunately, what with Truform II being so new, there aren't yet any games I can use to demonstrate it.

Videoshader
The 9700 Pro also comes with ATIs newest innovation, Videoshader. What it does is use the 9700 Pros pixel shaders to do things to video that was never practical before. One example is streaming video de-blocking. Most streaming internet video is rather blocky due to compression, especially on low-bandwidth connections. The 9700 Pro helps clear up these blocks and other artifacts. The 9700 Pros programmable pixel shaders can also be used to clean up TV and DVD playback, and apply effects such as outlines, embossing, and blurring to video streams in real time.
ATI held the graphics hardware pole position in the 1990’s with massive market share, but competitor NVIDIA’s GeForce cards led consumers to associate NVIDIA with innovation and top performance. Part of the reason that NVIDIA has been beating ATI in recent years was NVIDIA’s incredible developer support program and regular release of reliable high performance software drivers. ATI has clearly recognized their past problems in this area. ATI isn’t just releasing an amazing consumer card next month—they are also releasing tons of technical information through their developer site and hiring more staff for the developer relations group. A new emphasis on quality over performance is aimed at fixing their reputation for bad drivers. This is supported by a corporate reorganization and new hardware architectures for which it is easier to write reliable, high performance drivers. Combined with ATI’s support for open standards and development of the device-independent, API independent RenderMonkey tool suite, the new emphasis on quality makes ATI a clear corporate leader that is responsive to the industry, developers, and customers.

What’s next? ATI is focusing on providing vertex and pixel shaders on lower end and mobile hardware. They will also ship more Render Monkey functionality, with support for 3DS Max, Maya, and SoftImage XSI. While the Radeon 9700 is an awesome card, there are some features that would really round out the feature set if added. Currently, there is no alpha blending when using a 128-bit frame buffer. This requires developers to rewrite their rendering pipelines in order to make effects like shadows, translucency, and particle systems work with high precision color. Adding high precision alpha blending, even longer vertex and pixel programs, and support for the NV_DEPTH_CLAMP OpenGL extension (important for shadow volume rendering) would really make this a next generation card with features to match its raw performance. "

This growth is exponential !

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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Offline3eyedgod
trippinkid

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 684
Loc: Far away and very near
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Life's a sim and then you're deleted! [Re: johnnyfive]
    #1284463 - 02/06/03 10:01 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't say that it wasn't possible. I just said that it was irrelevant.


--------------------
Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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* Cultural Convention and The Matrix ekomstop 1,370 16 04/21/04 01:52 AM
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* "The Matrix" ~ What is the matrix anyway? XFaithman 922 8 12/31/03 12:13 PM
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