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 amnesiaseizure
Mr
Registered: 08/28/00
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Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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 Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix)  [Re: bert]
#1273191 - 02/03/03 06:24 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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bert. if i was in a jungle with nothing to eat but animals then i would. you're right, it's about survival. But we don't need to this in todays society. we have the technology and means to get our hands on enough of everything to be healthy.
are you really saying that animals don't have a consciousness? This is about as ridiculous as arguing that they have the same degree of it as we do!!
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1274271 - 02/03/03 11:17 AM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
.Really though, I don't want to be flamed - it's dull - but i AM genuinely interested in hearing a well structured argument FOR eating animals that doesn't involve the notion that they don't suffer. That idea is just too ridiculous to consider.
I am not trying to be argumentative, but I would like to hear a "well structured argument" against eating animals! Eating meat is healthy and natural,convince me otherwise if you can. But I know the truth behind most of societies dietary problems, and it is not meat!
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1274394 - 02/03/03 12:00 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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You know, I saw some show recently on the discovery channel where one thing they talked about was the theory that an increase in the amount of fish in our diets is one thing that contributed to our large brains, so from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense to eat certain types of meat.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1274525 - 02/03/03 12:46 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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So you're saying that because of technology, that we now have a moral obligation to not kill or eat animals where previously it would have been ok? What is so special about advances in technology that it should suddenly make us alter the way we have been living for hundreds of thousands of years? And, yes, I do think that animals lack conciousness. If you don't believe me, go ask your dog, he'll tell you the same thing.
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
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enotake2
Stop Bush's war
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: bert]
#1275634 - 02/03/03 06:27 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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did you read my post on animal consciousness?
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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.
"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium
"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.
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enotake2
Stop Bush's war
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: silversoul7]
#1275641 - 02/03/03 06:28 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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But we're evolved now!
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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.
"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium
"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.
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bert
bodhi
Registered: 10/14/02
Posts: 2,819
Loc: state
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: enotake2]
#1275699 - 02/03/03 06:44 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well, I checked out your article about meat eating demented people. I'd like to point out the study is posted on the 'soybean website'. Also, it is an extract from a pre-liminary study that was followed by a contradictory unmatched sub-study in which it was found there was no measurable difference in dementia between meat and non-meat eaters.
Also, this study was published 10 years ago. If meat really caused massive dementia in the populous, don't you think the findings of this study would have become wide-spread and publicized? And since when is 4 or more times a week considered 'heavy meat eaters'? 95 percent of people I know eat meat 7 days a week. And not one has ever become demented as a result.
It is obvious this study was done with an intent behind it. The interpretation of the study makes all the difference. I am a psychology major, so I will discuss this with my professor and see what the kind of information is out now. But frankly, I think this study is faulty and the idea of eating giving dementia doesn't make sense evolutionarily either. We evolved to eat meat, thats why we have incisors. If eating meat resulted in 9 times as much dementia as a vegetarian diet, then we would have a large amount of non-functioning human organisms which is detrimental to the overall health and well-being of the society.
Note: Lumen Foods is the world leader in replacement animal products. No wonder the study came out with the results it did. They stand to gain a huge economic profit by slandering the good name of 'meat'. 
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Persons denying the existence of robots may be robots themselves.
Edited by bert (02/03/03 06:48 PM)
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1275840 - 02/03/03 08:02 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Of course animals feel pain! It would be rediculous to claim that they don't.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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motatraehrehtom
Brick
Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 157
Last seen: 21 years, 1 month
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: sirreal]
#1275886 - 02/03/03 08:24 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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I never understood the argument that you shouldn't eat meat because you can live, and be healthy without eating meat. That's not really saying much, and I think for the most part, people don't eat meat because it's healthy, they eat it because it's tasty. Also, the idea of humans being so very advanced that they should have some moral outrage about eating meat is just ridiculous. Humans, no matter how smart, or advanced, are still very primal creatures. I personally am not the type of person to get up in arms about anything, but if I were, I think I might chose something slightly more important than animals being killed to help sustain human life (regardless to the fact that they don't have to be consumed to sustain human life, that is still the purpose of eating meat).
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Did they get you to trade, your heroes for ghosts? Hot ashes for trees? Hot air for a cool breeze? Cold comfort for change? And did you exchange, a walk on part in the war, for a lead role in the cage?
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enotake2
Stop Bush's war
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 1,457
Loc: Comfy chair in my lounger...
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: bert]
#1275984 - 02/03/03 09:08 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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You're right. The information on the internet is not always reliable, and I agree with you that one study is not enough to base conclusions on and that the people who did the study could have had vested interests. I did a quick search on Medline (cd rom database of published academic medical research) and it appears it is a pretty understudied area. Though, of the handful of studies that do exist, more of them found a relationship than did'nt. There is, however, a good whack of research that shows vegetarians are less likely to suffer coronary artery disease, obesity, diabetes and many cancers and live longer than meat eaters. Fish is more beneficial to health. Though I'm a vegetarian for ethical reasons rather than health ones.
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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.
"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium
"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: enotake2]
#1276001 - 02/03/03 09:26 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Someone who eats primarily meat and not a bunch of simple sugars and refined wheat will also be extremely healthy! As I posted earlier, Adiet high in protein and fat and low in simple carbohydrates has been proven to lower weight, reverse heart disease, cure diabetes, alleviate arthritis symptoms and on and on and on!
I lost 43 pounds in three months and brought my blood pressure to normal! eating mainly meat!
I know that a person who eats a lot of veggies and not a lot of refined foods can also be extremely healthy,but so can a meat eater!
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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amnesiaseizure
Mr
Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 282
Loc: Certainly not here.
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: enotake2]
#1276011 - 02/03/03 09:33 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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The meat industry is a multi million dollar one and will be protected at all costs by those making a profit. Certain studies will always be downplayed or ridiculed and i agree that you can't make a decision based on one study alone. However, if you look around there are plenty of resources that all point to it being a healtier option. Anyway, that's besides the point IMO.
Using the argument that it's 'natural' makes me laugh. The way i see it, it's natural to kill other humans, rape, steal, abuse children etc etc... Do this mean we should all go about these things with gay abandon? You're protecting you're right to eat meat because you like the taste and you are conditioned to have a positive response every time you tuc into a juicy steak or wot not. Take control of actions for gods sake and realise the effect you have on the lives of others. And yes, i am saying that due to technology we can now all live in a way that massively reduces the suffering we inflict. If you go throught the thics of eating meat on a philosophical basis it is VERY hard to come up with a solid argument that condones what we do to them. Try reading Animal Liberation by Peter Singer and then come back with something that excites me!! He's a very well respected philosopher in Australia who became vegan after haveing a jolly good think about it all.
Lets face it, the majority of you probably come from the US where meat eating is such an ingrained way of life - apologies if you're not. And are you seriously saying that to find outr if something has a consciousness it has to be able to speak to me in my own language?? Oops, there goes the majority of the world's population!
"So you're saying that because of technology, that we now have a moral obligation to not kill or eat animals where previously it would have been ok? What is so special about advances in technology that it should suddenly make us alter the way we have been living for hundreds of thousands of years? And, yes, I do think that animals lack conciousness. If you don't believe me, go ask your dog, he'll tell you the same thing. "
That's exactly what i'm saying bert, what's so special is that now we don't HAVE to eat it to get all the necessary good stuff! Advances in technology have changed the way we live irreversibly and there's no denying it. Why shouldn't it in this area?
I'm not arguing the point that it's unnatural or that it's inherently wrong but that when we have a choice - the result that less harm would be being done - then it seems strange not to make it.
Not eating animals also has a very positive effect on the way you view yourself and the outside world. I'm not getting in my high horse but when i'm living in a way that excludes the xplotation of living things on such a grand scale, i can't help but feel less like a hypocrite when i reach down to pat a friendly dog or give my rat a cuddle. There can be little doubt that the hypocrisy is a rather larger one when you then bowl into Maccy D's and order a Big Mac.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of these extremists who believe that every living thing is conscious in exactly the same way we are. I do think however, that everything living can experience pain and will always make moves away form the source. What's the point in inflicting this torment on so many every single day merely so you can lick you lips and say mmmmmmmmm.
mmmmmmm?
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amnesiaseizure
Mr
Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 282
Loc: Certainly not here.
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: silversoul7]
#1276016 - 02/03/03 09:37 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
You know, I saw some show recently on the discovery channel where one thing they talked about was the theory that an increase in the amount of fish in our diets is one thing that contributed to our large brains, so from an evolutionary standpoint, it makes sense to eat certain types of meat.
I agree, i've read the same thing. But where has this increase in our brain size really got us ey? What is the intrinsic value of having a large brain if it means depending on the pain of other's to facilitate it?
There are no winners when we rely on exploiting othe lives.
I'm afraid we are all losing.
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1276019 - 02/03/03 09:41 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Not eating animals also has a very positive effect on the way you view yourself and the outside world. I'm not getting in my high horse but when i'm living in a way that excludes the xplotation of living things on such a grand scale, i can't help but feel less like a hypocrite when i reach down to pat a friendly dog or give my rat a cuddle. There can be little doubt that the hypocrisy is a rather larger one when you then bowl into Maccy D's and order a Big Mac.
I never had a cow as a pet, nor would I want to. Also, why don't you ask the dog if it would rather have a Big Mac or a salad. Personally, I'd take the Big Mac, except it has lettuce, pickles, and onions, which I don't like.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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amnesiaseizure
Mr
Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 282
Loc: Certainly not here.
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: motatraehrehtom]
#1276020 - 02/03/03 09:42 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, the idea of humans being so very advanced that they should have some moral outrage about eating meat is just ridiculous.
Why is it ridiculous?
I always hate moral outrages but why is it so silly to rethink our behaviour due to advances in our culture?
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silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
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 Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1276021 - 02/03/03 09:43 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does the lettuce in your salad cry when you eat it? You murderer!
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
Edited by silversoul7 (02/03/03 09:43 PM)
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1276022 - 02/03/03 09:43 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
. Using the argument that it's 'natural' makes me laugh. The way i see it, it's natural to kill other humans, rape, steal, abuse children etc etc... Do this mean we should all go about these things with gay abandon? mmmmmmm?
Some people will say anything to make a point! Weak.
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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amnesiaseizure
Mr
Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 282
Loc: Certainly not here.
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: sirreal]
#1276027 - 02/03/03 09:47 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Why is that weak?
IMO using the 'natural' argument is pretty weak. You can use it to cover up all sorts of moral indignities...
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sirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: amnesiaseizure]
#1276031 - 02/03/03 09:56 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Your point of view is full of drama and illogic! We evolved eating meat and our bodies metabolize it very well. Research has proven that if you eliminate most refined foods you can be extremely healthy eating meat! And stronger.
As for your other concerns, I don't care!. You may think that makes me an asshole, but I think crying over a cow or a fish makes a person look foolish!
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I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
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I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!
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amnesiaseizure
Mr
Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 282
Loc: Certainly not here.
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: ethics of eating meat.......(continued from here more pix) [Re: sirreal]
#1276035 - 02/03/03 09:58 PM (21 years, 2 months ago) |
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Fair enough, i respect your viewpoint.
it's a shame that compassion makes me foolish though ey?
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