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Offlinemushmellowman
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: moshroom]
    #5669758 - 05/24/06 08:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I found a bunch in TN just today on my property growing in almost that same habitat.. was seriously suprised... last year there was lots of Horse Poo but no pans but where the horse poo used to be this year LOTS OF SUBS can't wait for the next 2 storms coming this weekend... These were kinda starting to dry out in the sun been about 36hours with no rain so they were startin to turn a brownish rustish color with jet black spore prints blue at the myc growth and white ridges down the stems that you could see better when the spores kinda dropped on em... anyway found about 3 lbs today. can't find the cord for my girlfriend's camera so there were some other mybe gyms that were growing up beside em... I live in SE TN about 70 miles from chattanooga so I finally found a good crop of Pan Subs Got de motivated from looking for the "Blue Feet" searched the whole Appalachain mountain range. Geeze... :P anyway The dif between the Pan Foes and Pan Subs for me is in the SUbs or at least these I can actually smell the psylocin I love that SMELL :P and the jet black spores... IF you have to question whether or not the print is black it's not jet black. Laters Just given you TN shroomers some hope Peace


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Offlinexmush
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: mushmellowman]
    #5669819 - 05/24/06 08:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Different subs mushmellowman. These guys are in Australia talking about Psilocybe subaeroginosa, not Panoleus subbalteatus, lol. Congrats on your finds though, gives me some hope here in NC too.


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Invisiblebaycafe
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: mushmellowman]
    #5669823 - 05/24/06 08:58 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Mushmellowman, they are talking about a Psilocybe species and not Pan. subbalteatus.


--------------------
I think my eyes are getting better. Instead of a big dark blur I see a big light blur.

俺のシロシャイビケッルリプスがここです。

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Offlinemushmellowman
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: baycafe]
    #5670152 - 05/24/06 10:26 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

LoL good call, I hit the post button I think like 5 minutes be4 I started looking at this post and couldn't remember where the post came from.. so there you have it DA DANUH


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OfflineWyscuL
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: mushmellowman]
    #5671532 - 05/25/06 06:07 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Hi all (Again!)

Sorry to maintain this post hijack!

I have gone and found one of the possible P.Subs i have been looking at (this is the 3rd one I have picked now) and taken 'pre-pick' photos.

Poss sub still in ground1
Poss sub still in ground2


aswell as photos showing the stages of bruising that this type goes through

Picked - white stringy stem

Squeezed base - yellow initial bruising

Sporeprint is dark purple-brown as with the last 3 of this particular type that I have picked.

I -squished- the cap later on today and have a definite blue-green bruising on splits in the (dryer) cap (mixed in with the dryed faded caramel-yellow color)

Just hoping that this explains where I've been aiming (and probably missing), but again, .. lacking the definitive bluing that I have seen pics of :undecided:

Just trying to take a few better pics for better judgement!

Thanks for the advice so far!

-W


Edited by WyscuL (05/25/06 06:11 AM)


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: WyscuL]
    #5678921 - 05/27/06 01:24 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

very similar but the gill shape is wrong, as is there attachment to the stem, and there is no bluing which is indicitive of subaeruginosa.
So id have to say they are not subaeruginosa.


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OfflineWyscuL
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #5689517 - 05/30/06 03:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

thanks! .. i'll keep looking!


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InvisibleshroominDole
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: WyscuL]
    #5820287 - 07/04/06 04:57 PM (15 years, 27 days ago)

Just came across this reply towards me on a search from couple weeks back I missed like I probably do alot of them......



".........no indication of anything poisonous."


bread said: " Thnks for that notorious."  :smile:
:projectile:

" I'm glad you posted actually, as I had been getting worried "  :crazy:............"I've felt pretty confident about what I've got so far.........."


Quote:

moshroom said:
"just remember to check each individual mushroom u pick coz you can sometimes mistake gallerinas and hypolimas or whatever they are".........."and i can see a definate blue bruising, if it doesnt i just chuck em, usually that only happends with one or 2 per every bunch and its probably safe to say it was a sub but i wouldnt risk it. "


Quote:

triple_ said:
However, as moshroom said, make sure you check for blue bruising and spore print them to verify that they are indeed subs.


Freaking geniuses the both.....sage advise :thumbup: !


---------------------------------------------


Quote:

bread said:
"...............Anybody else got any advice? I would like to hear some more in regard to number 3; the ones that have browned strike me as strange...? Pretty confident with the rest of them now! number 3



thosemynikes said: "i believe i see a coprinus to the back left in that 4th picture.... " (some more genius at hand  :thumbup:)

Quote:

shroomkma said:
"yeah there all subs dude..."


Quote:

shroominDole said:
"Not  ALL those mushrooms can be properly identified as Ps aeruginosa from those pictures"



Quote:

the_Notorious said:
" They are all defenitely subs except for the ones where you have said "A patch of these things".............." I think in this case its safe to say what you have in those pictures bar one, are all subs. "

" A patch of these things "


shroominDole, when you hunt these for so long, and when you deal with them everyday, you know when they are P.Subaeruginosa.  If they weren't clear photos, id be hesistant but in my opinion, every picture contains subs. :puke:




Safe mushroom identification is not just knowing what you THINK you have......its also knowing what you dont have ..... :confused:
Hmmmmmm......I'm a little tossed on this one......could the circled SUBs in that picture be the potentially deadly Hypholoma (Stropharia) aurantiaca pictured at the top of this page and below.....or the deadly Australian Cortinarius cinnabarinus pictured here Hmmmm.....
any suggestions ??????
Cortinarius are among the deadliest of all mushrooms.....

It is irresponsible and completely impossible to state 100 % that there is no way there arent any number of similiarly shaped or colored potentially deadly mushrooms hiding in pictures of a billion or more yellow and brown mushrooms growing together like that in one patch......especially when all you can see are the tops of them from such a distance away especially some of those smaller ones I see......I 'm not saying a small mushroom cant be IDd from a pic and Im not saying I'm right even half the time myself but there are way too many in there that arent visible at all and quite scattered completely obscured in habitat that can support all the deadly groups as opposed to something like a dung habitat situation for instance.....I cant begin to count how many times Ive found what I thought was a patch of all the same mushrooms fom the top and found a deadly little clone or two lurking right in the middle amongst em  :uptosomething: indistinguishable from the top till I got em in my stomache I mean my hand.....just because a group of mushrooms are growing touching each other doesnt mean they are all the same !!!

Which is why I stated this below which seperates SUBs from the deadly mushrooms until you can ID SUBs without it .......even though you state how simple it is to do this for yourself the large amount of people who come in here and ones which Ive IDd SUBs for only have 1, 2, 3, or less posts many of which have never picked a mushroom off the ground and eaten it in their lives.......
This below deineates Psilocybe subaeruginosa (SUBs) from the poisonous mushrooms :thumbup:.....who cares if they have to leave behind a couple of mushrooms.....better safe
Quote:

shroominDole said :And you must NEVER consider any mushroom that doesnt have the proper spore color AND any of which doesnt bruise....DISTINCLY.....no two ways about it   BLUE  in time where handled or cut as the poisonous lookalikes not only can LOOK identical but have the same color spores as SUBs and occur in the same habitat  .....but DONT bruise BLUE



One of the potentially deadly mushrooms found by bread...... Stropharia (Hypholoma) aurantiaca can LOOK similiar as Notorious has demonstrated......has the exact same  color spores as SUBs and occurs right next to them in the same habitat as evidenced in the pictures ......but DONT bruise BLUE .  

So remember.....if it aint PURPLE AND BLUE it aint for you...and if you have to ask if its PURPLE AND BLUE ....it aint !!!

The reason I state this mushroom is potentially DEADLY is because it is widespread in many places and every reference I've ever seen for this mushroom is "Edibility Unknown" or suspect (translation: = DEADLY until proven otherwise ! ) 


The reason that these mushrooms can be so similiar in so many respects is because Hypholomas ARE Psilocybes and vice versa only seperated by minor microscopic differences which have been debated  for decades and still are with Stropharia included here......I mean try arguing with some people that Psilocybe cubensis is not Stropharia cubensis and so on it continues......but this is true for all groups in taxonomy and always will.....any time someone puts a pen to paper they include revision for their publication many times just for the sake of revision ......there will always be new advancements in criteria and you think molecular is going to simplify things ??? Lumpers and Splitters....Ligers and Bears

 

This is a picture of Psilocybe (Hypholoma) fasciculare from Austrailia identified by Tom May of the Melbourne Royal Botanical Gardens.
It has accounted for several deaths in Europe and Asia.

This mushroom is common in New Zealand and more than well documented in Austrailia as seen below. It like Psilocybe subaeruginosa has PURPLE BROWN to PURPLE BLACKISH spore color and can occur anywhere woody debris is available and can be extremely variable in shape and color also......

As seen above caps can be wavy uplifted or not at all......along with stems very brightly sulfer yellow and with a greenish hue to not colored and whitish to grayish......can also have no noticable velar zone at times like SUBs to having one that is a quite well formed annulus....... and gills becoming very dark at maturity from having same color spores as SUBs.

Also they characteristicly occur growing close together in groups like the group above in Breads picture but can also occur singly occasionally in some cases lurking with just 1 or 2 in a patch like Breads.....only takes one......could you spot this mushroom from the pictures of the patches provided by Bread that are ???All Subs???

Here is another picture of deadly Fasciculare identified by a very famous mycologist for further comparison with breads patches above and below ....remember it only takes one.

Psilocybe (Hypholoma) fasciculare

Here is a thread where the highly variable Fasciculare was found this season in N.Z.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5528225/an/0/page/6


Quote:

thosemynikes said:
" i believe i see a coprinus to the back left in that 4th picture " ....


Quote:

the_Notorious said :
".....is no indication of anything poisonous."

that 4th picture:scat:




Why would you.....after two different people state that there could be poisonous mushrooms in those pictures.....from these clear pictures without hesitancy .....restate over and over there there's no chance of anything poisonous....to someone who is still trying to learn the difference between Deadly Cortinarius from SUBs or any other mushroom for that matter.....even after thosemynikes   gave you the correct identification of those mushrooms.....genus Coprinus (three circled) and the numbered pic they were pictured in......?????
I know why.....

By the way......did you know other than the chemical Coprine present in Coprinus atramentarius for example and others......that can react adversly when consumed with alcohol.....that there are Coprinus species which are poisonous to a great many people and can possibly put you on an ambulance ride such as the well known 'Magpie Mushroom' Coprinus picaceus......and that there are many other Coprinus of unknown edibility which means consider poisonous till proven otherwise ????????   
Not to mention that fat little poisonous SUB....uhhh...I mean Hypholoma(Stropharia) aurantiaca :shocked: so prominantly placed smack in the middle of that group circled in the picture above......thats some scary stuff right there happenin....
                                         
And back to the subject of your request for lookalikes...
Here is another pic of your patch along with a couple more pics of the deadly Fasciculare showing some of there extreme diversity remembering its has the exact same color spore print.....and can also occur anywhere wood is present.....can in some forms exhibit no annulus.....can occur clustered or singly.......and caps can fade in color from very dark to almost whitish......also as you can see have a very distinct umbo (nipple) in the middle of the cap.....all just like SUBBs

Compare these pics closely to the mushrooms in your pics of the large patches and their similiar cap colors especially some of them almost white from being hygrophanous (fading in color) so typical of Psilocybe/ Hypholoma/ Stropharia  and their distinct nipples on some and not others. Would you be willing to bet your life on those similarities.....Only difference is Fasciculare does NOT bruise BLUE.

Fasciculare


Breads patch for further comparison....


Fasciculare




And since you were asking for possible poisonous lookalikes both of these can look similiarly colored as you can see...

  :thumbdown:  :scat:  :thumbdown: 
Australian Cortinarius austroalbidus ---------  Australian Cortinarius splendens

And of course this Cort must be mentioned ( as this was from your (bread ) first post )  which occurs in both NZ and Australia which can also give the illusion of bruising because the blue can be patchy against an otherwise white stem or whitish cap with that gold center or quite a gold cap but both can also range to extremely blue.....in other words can be quite variable.
bread said :
" I found a heap last season and was advised by someone a bit more in the know  that they were active mushrooms,  as  you can see they had blue tops with a gold spot in the centre, and the stem was blue also ..........." I only ask as I had   been advised they WERE actives , but want to get some confirmation.

and here was someones comment on his pics.....
" It certainly looks like it is blueing "
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5618266


Here is an incredibly beautiful golden capped form with lighter edges ( margin ) and blue stem of Rotundisporus posted this season from Australia while on the hunt for SUBs as he had posted it along side a pic of the SUBs he had found....

the beaut Cort

Compare

Here was an interesting  :confused: shroom found last season in S. Austrailia for comparison....
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post4388490



Now to demonstrate variability here are some whitish capped forms with the golden centers, thinner stemmed varieties.....
shroomer nicks
Cortinarius rotundisporus


Cortinarius are the largest group of fungi in the world and can be found anywhere there is a tree.....they grow on the roots of trees and they're association with tree roots is referred to a Mycorrhizal association or relationship....





Quote:

shroominDole said :
" there are POISONOUS lookalikes which some of those might very well be....these mushrooms have accounted for deaths in Europe.....that being Psilocybe fasciculare which is EXTREMELY common in Austrailia


Quote:

bluemeanie said:
"Psilocybe fasciculare' I have never seen this mushroom in Australia......" 




Here are a couple references documenting the occurence of this mushroom in Australia.
Psilocybe fasciculare (Huds.) Kühner (1980), ( Hypholoma (Naematoloma) fasciculare),  Strophariaceae
Psilocybe fasciculare var. fasciculare (Huds.) Kühner (1980); Strophariaceae
Psilocybe fasciculare var. pusilla (J.E. Lange) Noordel. (1995), ( Hypholoma fasciculare var. pusillum),  Strophariaceae
Psilocybe fascicularis (Huds.) Noordel. (1995) [as 'fasciculare'] = Hypholoma fasciculare (Huds.) P. Kumm. (1871) [as 'fascicularis']

Ashton (1976), Barbato (1993), Barrett (1934a), Becker (1875), Berkeley (1859; 1872), Bougher & Syme (1998), Bould et al. (1995), Brittlebank (1940), Browne & Mills (1993), Catcheside (1997a; 1999), Cheel (1912c; 1920a), Cleland (1934a), Cleland & Cheel (1915b; 1918; 1923), Cole et al. (1984), Cooke (1881a; 1892a), A.B.Cribb (1987), Dalton et al. (1999), Dashorst & Jessop (1990), Dickinson & Lucas (1979), Eygelsheim (1981), Fuhrer (2005), Fuhrer & Robinson (1992), Grgurinovic (1997), Grgurinovic & Simpson (2001), Gill & Ashton (1971), Griffiths (1985), Hennings (1898), Hilton (1982), Hilton & Clancy (1988), Hilton et al. (1989: 'faciculare'), Hooke & Stewart (1935), Macdonald & Westerman (1979), Mallett & Grgurinovic (1996), Mathieson (1946), May (1989; 1997a; 1998), McAlpine (1895a; 1897; 1898c; 1899a; 1902), McCann (2003), Mueller (1881; 1885), Newman (1956), Noble et al. (1935), Pascoe & Lawrence (1978), Pascoe et al. (1984: McAlpine incorrect in identifying this species as the causal agent of white root rot of raspberry in Vic.), Pratt (1971), Ratkowsky & Gates (2002: and the illustration in Fuhrer & Robinson (1992) is var. armeniacum), Rodway (1898a), Saccardo (1887), Shepherd & Totterdell (1988), Simpson (1996), Sinnott (1976), Southcott (1996), Stewart (1936: 'Hypoloma'), Stewart & Hooke (1934), Stirling (1903), Tate (1882), Tepper (1886: 'faxicularis'), Walters (1962; 1973), Weatherhead (1982), Willis (1934a; 1934b; 1953a; 1955; 1963; 1978b; 1987; 1991: 'fasiculare'), Winter (1886), Young (2000c; 2005), Young et al. (2002: 'aff', 'fasiculare'; 2004).
General References to occurence in Austrailia
Dennis et al. (1960), Moser (1983), Singer (1986: Naematoloma), Pegler (1977), Watling & Gregory (1987).

There has now been recently a brand new variety of this Psilocybe identified as occurring from Tasmania:
Psilocybe fascicularis (Huds. : Fr.) Noordel.
var. armeniaca
Y.S. Chang & A.K. Mills   var. nov.



Quote:

Bluemeanie said:
I am not aware of any blue staining hypholoma or Psilocybes that are poisonous in any way (excluding indole/psilicybin at al. content)




One I think is worth a mention here which occurs in both NZ and Australia which can occur in the same habitat is Psilocybe(Stropharia ) aeruginosa ......a potentially poisonous Psilocybe which is blue and to many can give the illusion of appearing to be bruising because of it being hygrophanous (fading/ changing color) of the cap like so many Psilocybes  and can show  patchy color changes on the stem in age and contains no known active indoles. It can also have yellowish and golden colors in the cap.  It has historically been and still listed as poisonous in a large number of publishings with conflicting reports of edibility as in Europe where in some areas it has been reported as eaten.........

Here   is a link to some good pics and an example of some of the confusion some forms of this Psilocybe can cause with 'active' Psilocybes.....now notice the golden color viscid cap which is changing color ( hygrophanous ) to whitish showing distinct blue and of course the beautiful spore print deposit all happening on the cap surface......these were found on wood mulch in a local park....

(Just noticed this has had almost 3000 people veiw this ID request !!! ) here it is......
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5588280
One person even states he regularly finds this shroom and has always been " a 100% fun to trip on "



Quote:

shroominDole said: "......but dont have DARK PURPLISH BROWN to PURPLISH BLACKISH spores like Psilocybes and  poisonous Hypholomas "


Quote:

Bluemeanie said :   "The poisonous mushrooms that are found around subaeruginosa's habitat are for the most part quite distinct with the acception of a couple of stropharia/hypoloma and galerina - none of which have purple spore prints or stain blue. "




I have never seen this.......I have never seen  Hypholoma or Stropharia that do not usually have purple color in their spores prints .......including the potentially deadly Fasciculare and Hypholoma (Stropharia) aurantiaca found here by bread..... other than some Stropharia with black spores.

And until you can learn to I.D. without it.....you must NEVER consider any mushroom that doesnt have the proper spore color AND any of which doesnt bruise.... DISTINCLY .....no two ways about it BLUE in time where handled or cut as the poisonous lookalikes not only can LOOK identical but have the same color spores as SUBs and occur in the same habitat.....but DONT bruise BLUE



This statement was made just a couple days after this thread :
Quote:

the_Notorious said : ShroominDole, it sounds like your trying to spread the word about harm minimisation which is a great thing, but please make sure you get your facts right. Misinformation can be as bad as no information at all.



Heres the link for the above statement:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5678475


It is also a good idea to do some searches and reading to study the species of Galerina , etc.,  especially when searching in wood chips in parks, etc.


--------------------
Worlds Largest 'Liberty Cap' (Cali Libs Confirmed !)
' Comments On Hallucinogenic Agarics And The Hallucinations Of Those Who Study Them '
Alexander H. Smith
Mycologia vol.69 1977


Edited by shroominDole (07/05/06 07:00 PM)


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OfflineBread
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: shroominDole]
    #5822680 - 07/05/06 08:18 AM (15 years, 26 days ago)

Wow... thanks a million for a VERY detailed post. I would like to point out that in pictures such as this:



I was in fact referring only to the.. uhh... 'more sub-like' mushrooms. The red ones I knew were not the same and they were not picked. In reading people's replies, I read them only with reference to what I was actually looking at. However I do appreciate the post and see exactly what you are saying.

Also, in regard to this pic:



I went back there a few days later (see post here: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rue#Post5662425 ) andthis is what they looked like from closer up (sorry, dunno how to thumbnail):




The actual post contains more photos of the ones first posted in this thread.

However, this picture you have supplied has got me a bit more worried:


Psilocybe (Hypholoma) fasciculare

I have a couple of shrooms I picked (no photos) which I was a tad unsure of (slightly smaller/shorter than what I'm used to) and after having now seen this pic I'm a bit more concerned. Might turf them and go back after some rain and take some pics etc.

Thanks again for the great post and helpful info!! When we finally get some more effing rain down here I'm hoping to post some more nice pics!!!

Cheers ShroominDole!!


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InvisibleshroominDole
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Re: Subs - SE Suburbs, Victoria - Few questions and ID help [Re: Bread]
    #5842396 - 07/10/06 03:10 PM (15 years, 21 days ago)

I had faith in you bread just from the caution from your first thread.....good eye......as you know others here arent so discerning.

By the way elite flixs for those shrooms you snapped there especially with the angles and light really highlighting those characteristics.....good eye mate both ways :wink:


--------------------
Worlds Largest 'Liberty Cap' (Cali Libs Confirmed !)
' Comments On Hallucinogenic Agarics And The Hallucinations Of Those Who Study Them '
Alexander H. Smith
Mycologia vol.69 1977


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Offlinejustwondering
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HELP!! please :) [Re: Bread]
    #12744892 - 06/15/10 02:54 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

hey all, pretty sure these are subs, pretty new to it all, what do you guys think?
safe or?





urgent guys, thanks and all :smile::confused:


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Invisiblemsanchez420
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Re: HELP!! please :) [Re: justwondering]
    #12744954 - 06/15/10 03:09 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

justwondering - All Subaeruginosa :awethumb:


--------------------
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"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one" - Albert Einstein


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