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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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The Martyr Syndrome * 2
    #12722293 - 06/10/10 06:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

While discussing Socrates' demise here, something dawned on me.  Many a martyr has thought they were on the path of enlightenment because they were persecuted.  The best example I know of where this occurs is the cult, Jehovah's Witnesses.  They go door to door "spreading the Gospel" while most folks think of them as nuisances.  They regularly have doors slammed in their faces, and were even a target of Hitler's. Now, you might think it would dawn on them they were doing something wrong because most people do not like them.  Wrong.  They interpret the harassment as a sign that they are noble.  They're not.  They are obnoxious idiots who pester people who don't want their "Gospel."

This syndrome evidences itself in many other ways.  We all can think of hate magnets at the Shroomery.  People who seem to go out of their way to make others dislike them.  They are, in sum, a troll of another color.  Yet, I think, they suffer from the same delusion.  They think they are right and all the others are wrong.



What other types of martyrs can you think of?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12722441 - 06/10/10 07:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yet, I think, they suffer from the same delusion.  They think they are right and all the others are wrong.


What makes you so sure I'm deluded?:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12722520 - 06/10/10 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:

I'm not talking about you, ya ninny.  I'm talking about the other guys.  Sheesh, do I have to explain EVERYTHING?


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12722526 - 06/10/10 07:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

And how come no one wants to post in my thread?

Do you think it is too deep?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12722588 - 06/10/10 07:41 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
:lol:

I'm not talking about you, ya ninny.  I'm talking about the other guys.  Sheesh, do I have to explain EVERYTHING?




But I want it to be about me. :hissyfit:

It might be said about Jesus too. Most profits and saviors and saints and seers really don't have a clue how time will play things out. I was just reading today about the development of Christianity in the Roman empire. I really wonder if Jesus would have wanted anything to do with that BS.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12722861 - 06/10/10 08:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You assume they died because they thought they were right and everyone else is wrong.

Don't you think some of them died, in part, because everyone else thought they were right?

I think when these big deaths happen, there is an effect which might be a good thing.  When a peaceful person is put to death, every single person involved, who had no reason to send them to their death, has the potential to feel regret and so learn from their mistake.  Take Socrates for example.  If he hadn't been put to death, and if the choice hadn't been so unpopular, you wouldn't even know who Plato or Socrates was, they would be just two more forgotten dead men.

I challenge you to argue that Socrates thought he was right.  It is just not in the text of Plato at all, in fact, the dialogues point to a Socrates who confessed that he did not know.  Is that thinking you're right?  Hell no.  Is it right?  Well, what is right?  I don't know.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12722969 - 06/10/10 08:45 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

No one can be prompted to hate another unless that is already part of their being.

Do you see MLK and Gandhi as proud martyrs or as courageous people who sought to correct injustice - even at great personal risk?


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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: xFrockx]
    #12722985 - 06/10/10 08:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

How about the buddhist monk that burned himself in NAM?? u know the one on RATM's self titled cover???

i mean, yes he thought his belief system was right or he wouldn't have killed himself, he also saw it as an oportunity to attaract media attention and show his resolve to the world, he dosen't make a sound or move until he is dead. Now that kind of martyrdom may have been because he thought WAR is wrong. however given what he knew about conciousness, duality and subjective perspective AND what we know, i can't help but agree that he was right. that war is wrong or at least pointless.

but is not every action we take because we think we are right? and that any form of resistance to our action is wrong??  do you not feel that the feeling of hunger is wrong, and thus take the "right" action of eating to fix the situation?

Is not the cause of all action the belief that we will achieve something? that whatever we reap from our action will fill or at least destract us from the void within us? at the same time is not turning inwards to witness the void we percieve as our conciosness' inability to see itself through the filter of the ego based on our belief that it is a better way to live?

i dunno exactly what to discuss here actually.....so excuse my ramblings.......i felt it was the right thing to do :smile:


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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12722986 - 06/10/10 08:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I see them as neither.  Anyone who had lived the same lives as them would have done the same thing.  Oh wait...


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12722989 - 06/10/10 08:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
:lol:

I'm not talking about you, ya ninny.  I'm talking about the other guys.  Sheesh, do I have to explain EVERYTHING?




But I want it to be about me. :hissyfit:

It might be said about Jesus too. Most profits and saviors and saints and seers really don't have a clue how time will play things out. I was just reading today about the development of Christianity in the Roman empire. I really wonder if Jesus would have wanted anything to do with that BS.




Hard to say.  Your mind went where mine went with Jesus.  After thinking about it though I remembered he did what he did out of obedience rather than because people were slamming him.  Most of the common people liked him.  It was the Scribes and Pharisees whose skin he got under.  Jesus bugged the people in power.  You could say that wasn't wise unless a higher authority was involved, i.e his Father.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: husk]
    #12722994 - 06/10/10 08:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Well he was the one who killed himself, some martyrs are killed by others.

"but is not every action we take because we think we are right? and that any form of resistance to our action is wrong??"

Every action?  There's no such thing as multiple actions instead of in your head, its all one follow-through.  Also, I don't actively think about whether I am right when I do everything, do you?

"do you not feel that the feeling of hunger is wrong, and thus take the "right" action of eating to fix the situation?"

No, I don't see it as a situation of right or wrong.  Whether or not I eat, and what I eat, isn't a game to win.


Edited by xFrockx (06/10/10 08:51 PM)


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12723034 - 06/10/10 08:55 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
No one can be prompted to hate another unless that is already part of their being.

Do you see MLK and Gandhi as proud martyrs or as courageous people who sought to correct injustice - even at great personal risk?





I think it's hard to say what psychology each man had.  You're right though.  No one can hate unless it is part of them.  I think everyone has that part.  The type of psychology I am talking about is evident within groups, like my Shroomery example.  Why are certain people hate magnets?  I have no idea.  What makes JW's proud martyrs?  And they are certainly not the only "christian" group I have known like that.

I think the same psychology might be evident in other groups that pride themselves on being different.  "Come ye out from among them...and God shall make unto himself a peculiar people."  They seem like freaks and weirdos seeking some kind of freakish justification for their weirdness.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: xFrockx]
    #12723043 - 06/10/10 08:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I once hit my thumb with a hammer.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12723083 - 06/10/10 09:03 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sure, but who can judge why another is different? I remember the hippie days when cops and rednecks beat the shit out of peaceful back-to-nature types for no reason other than their difference. Opting out of the status quo sometimes just feels right and is not for attention.

Doing something wrong for a long time (slavery for example) does not give it validity. Many whites drew intense hate (nigger-lovers) simply for challenging the prevailing paradigm. They did not seek to become hate magnets even though they accepted that might be part of the price.

Do you feel nothing should be questioned because someone might become upset?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (06/10/10 09:58 PM)


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Invisibleteknix
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12723101 - 06/10/10 09:05 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

What about the suicide bombers? Their extremist beliefs glorify martyrdom.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12723171 - 06/10/10 09:15 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Sure, but who can juge why another is different? I remember the hippie days when cops and rednecks beat the shit out of peaceful back-to-nature types for no reason other than their difference. Opting out of the status quo sometimes just feels right and is not for attention.




Sometimes is key.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Doing something wrong for a long time (slavery for example) does not give it validity. Many whites drew intense hate (nigger-lovers) simply for challenging the prevailing paradigm. They did not seek to become hate magnets even though they accepted that might be part of the price.




All true.  I'm not saying there isn't a time to buck authority or go against the grain.  I am only talking about people who do this when the cost/benefit ratio, other than psychological, does not warrant it.  It is a truism that no one does anything without some kind of reward--objectivism, Ayn Rand.  So the question becomes what kind of "benefit" are these freaks getting?  There must be some payoff, right?

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you feel nothing should be questioned because someone might become upset?




Absolutely not.  I thumb my nose at authority as a matter of course.  I "march to the beat of a different drummer."  Some people get their panties in a twist over nothing.  I am not responsible for their reaction unless I know, specifically, in advance, what that reaction will be.  Then, and only then, will I share a portion of the responsibility.

Sometimes there is a just cause, other times there's a just because.  It is the latter cases to which I am referring.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12723325 - 06/10/10 09:38 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

But once he was dead guys like Paul took over and took it in his own direction imo. Then there came the organized church with priests and all that involvement in govt. which supported it as a way to control people and make them obedient to the current culture and on and on and Jesus is turning over in his grave.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12723818 - 06/10/10 11:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
While discussing Socrates' demise here, something dawned on me.  Many a martyr has thought they were on the path of enlightenment because they were persecuted.  The best example I know of where this occurs is the cult, Jehovah's Witnesses.  They go door to door "spreading the Gospel" while most folks think of them as nuisances.  They regularly have doors slammed in their faces, and were even a target of Hitler's. Now, you might think it would dawn on them they were doing something wrong because most people do not like them.  Wrong.  They interpret the harassment as a sign that they are noble.  They're not.  They are obnoxious idiots who pester people who don't want their "Gospel."

This syndrome evidences itself in many other ways.  We all can think of hate magnets at the Shroomery.  People who seem to go out of their way to make others dislike them.  They are, in sum, a troll of another color.  Yet, I think, they suffer from the same delusion.  They think they are right and all the others are wrong.



What other types of martyrs can you think of?





I could imagine multiple contradictory explanations for martyrs, but every martyr will still be unique.

Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Freedom]
    #12723966 - 06/10/10 11:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...




Eggsactly.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Freedom]
    #12724988 - 06/11/10 07:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:

Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...




So the entire field of psychology is an exercise in fantasy.  That's good to know for the mentally deranged.


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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725016 - 06/11/10 07:51 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
We all can think of hate magnets at the Shroomery.




Yes, we all have this ability, but only you seem to be obsessing over them.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #12725147 - 06/11/10 08:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I don't worry so much about the hate magnets (whatever that means), but the hate exhibitors such as those who wish a painful death on another.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12725175 - 06/11/10 08:48 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

You'll find that in the political forum.:frown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #12725219 - 06/11/10 09:01 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
I don't worry so much about the hate magnets (whatever that means), but the hate exhibitors such as those who wish a painful death on another.







On Drama Queens & Hate Magnets:

When someone gets on the bad side of the community and continues to act out, bringing the wrath of our more vocal members upon themselves and generally becoming a detriment to the health and harmony of the boards, they will be processed in accordance with the On Banning guidelines above. Even if you feel that you are in the right, sometimes it is best to just let things go. It is expected that you will respect any such direction given to you by a staff member.

http://www.shroomery.org/6284/Administrative-Rules-Guidelines

Some people, who do not understand the principles of harmony within a community, such as the Shroomery, are banned for not fitting in.  Many time those, who wish to stir up shit, are found on the outside looking in.  Most of it is common sense; it's called the ability to get along.

Martyrs, the subject of this thread, are notorious for not being able to get along with others.  This is, sometimes, reflected in their rates.

Conversely, a man who has only friends, but no enemies, might not be trustworthy.  Balance in this, as with most things, is k3y.

The middle road may be the high ground.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12725228 - 06/11/10 09:03 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You'll find that in the political forum.:frown:




Hate is as common as love.  Hate, in itself, is neither good nor evil.  It is as proper to hate the wrong things as it is to love the right ones.


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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725233 - 06/11/10 09:05 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

:puke:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725264 - 06/11/10 09:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Check out my ratings. They are in perfect balance.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12725266 - 06/11/10 09:13 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
But once he was dead guys like Paul took over and took it in his own direction imo. Then there came the organized church with priests and all that involvement in govt. which supported it as a way to control people and make them obedient to the current culture and on and on and Jesus is turning over in his grave.





If he were in it.  Yes, I agree.  All organizations I have ever come across are evil piled on evil.  Many times they do exactly the opposite of their supposed "cause."

Liberals champion free speech and seek to silence conservatives.
The Christian church preaches love and holds the Spanish Inquisition.
The NRA has fought against concealed carry permits.
The Shroomery, whose focus should be mushrooms, is all about money.

The list is endless.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12725281 - 06/11/10 09:19 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Check out my ratings. They are in perfect balance.




:lol:

Yes, you neither give nor receive.  I've often thought about opting out but two things hold me back.

1.  The rates I've given.
2.  The compliments I received.  Here, at the Shroomery, my "mission," as it were, is to save lives and help people eat mushrooms that aren't harmful.  Along with my TI tag, the rates are further evidence of that should anyone need it.  I am "trusted" to tell the truth as far as I know it.  And, for the most part, I get along.



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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725286 - 06/11/10 09:21 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Yeah, I create my own religion and don't allow members. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
    #12725301 - 06/11/10 09:25 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Sometimes that's the best way.  You get to keep the Kool-Aid all to yourself.  :lol:



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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725305 - 06/11/10 09:26 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Freedom said:

Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...




So the entire field of psychology is an exercise in fantasy.  That's good to know for the mentally deranged.





You are equating your wild speculations about individuals with science?

Where are your error bars? What is your p value? Not only did you fail to implement the correct experimental controls, you failed to test your hypothesis altogether.

Or did you mean clinical psychology? There are many different kinds of clinical psychology, but all of them involve at least interviewing the patient, and the point is not to come up with an explanation for their behavior or feelings but to help the patient change.


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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Freedom]
    #12725323 - 06/11/10 09:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

But then, how can one play the superiority card? :strokebeard:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Freedom]
    #12725324 - 06/11/10 09:32 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Freedom said:

Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...




So the entire field of psychology is an exercise in fantasy.  That's good to know for the mentally deranged.





You are equating your wild speculations about individuals with science?




Wild speculations?  That's only your subjective opinion.  Most of my opinions are based on facts.  Please point to the ones that aren't.

Quote:

Freedom said:
Where are your error bars? What is your p value? Not only did you fail to implement the correct experimental controls, you failed to test your hypothesis altogether.




Horseshit.  That's arguing for arguing sake.  Feel free, not me.

:hatsoff:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725347 - 06/11/10 09:37 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Now I'm scared.:frown:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725422 - 06/11/10 10:04 AM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Freedom said:
Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Freedom said:

Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...




So the entire field of psychology is an exercise in fantasy.  That's good to know for the mentally deranged.





You are equating your wild speculations about individuals with science?




Wild speculations?  That's only your subjective opinion.  Most of my opinions are based on facts.  Please point to the ones that aren't.





This: "Many a martyr has thought they were on the path of enlightenment because they were persecuted."

Quote:


Quote:

Freedom said:
Where are your error bars? What is your p value? Not only did you fail to implement the correct experimental controls, you failed to test your hypothesis altogether.




Horseshit.  That's arguing for arguing sake.  Feel free, not me.

:hatsoff:




haha I call batshit on your horseshit :smile:

Really, I think the differences between your conclusion and conclusions published by psychologists are experimental design and statistical analysis.

This is my honest opinion :wink:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12725879 - 06/11/10 12:08 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Many a martyr has thought they were on the path of enlightenment because they were persecuted.




Quote:

In psychology, a person who has a martyr complex, sometimes associated with the term victim complex, desires the feeling of being a martyr for his/her own sake, seeking out suffering or persecution because it feeds a psychological need.

In some cases, this results from the belief that the martyr has been singled out for persecution due to exceptional ability or integrity.




Integrity: 1.  Steadfast adherence to a strict moral or ethical code.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyr_complex

:shrug:

More on martyrdom:

Quote:

There is much support for the idea that the culture of active martyrdom stems from the abuse of children at an early age.




Running head: A LITERATURE REVIEW ON THE PSYCHOLOGY OF MARTYRDOM by Jerry Smith

So, according to the literature, martyrs and hate magnets may come from abusive households. I would say that fits into their psychology perfectly.  They are used to being abused.

What a sad state of affairs.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12727241 - 06/11/10 04:35 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

I agree with:

Quote:

In psychology, a person who has a martyr complex, sometimes associated with the term victim complex, desires the feeling of being a martyr for his/her own sake, seeking out suffering or persecution because it feeds a psychological need.

In some cases, this results from the belief that the martyr has been singled out for persecution due to exceptional ability or integrity.




and

Quote:

So, according to the literature, martyrs and hate magnets may come from abusive households. I would say that fits into their psychology perfectly.




as possible explanations for some Martyrs

but:

Quote:

Getting inside the heads of people we don't know




i.e. Socrates, Jehovah Witnesses, or other individuals and groups.

I really don't see how psychoanalysis of someone who died over 2000 years ago could be anything but wild speculation, no matter who the psychologist is or who the subject is.

btw this quote:

Quote:


There is much support for the idea that the culture of active martyrdom stems from the abuse of children at an early age.




Is referring to Martyrs that kill themselves, as this is what the author defines as 'active martyrdom' as opposed to 'passive martyrdom' which is when someone else kills them.

The paper goes on to explore many other causes of active martyrdom, which is the basis for my opinion - we can imagine multiple possible explanations for martyrdom, but its fantasy to believe we know which explanation applies to Socrates or Jehovah Witnesses or members on this board.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Freedom]
    #12727483 - 06/11/10 05:09 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Freedom said:
but to me its fantasy to believe we know which explanation applies to Socrates or Jehovah Witnesses or members on this board.*




*fixed

It's been enlightening to talk to you.

:hatsoff:


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