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 Mr. Mushrooms
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 The Martyr Syndrome   2
#12722293 - 06/10/10 06:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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While discussing Socrates' demise here, something dawned on me. Many a martyr has thought they were on the path of enlightenment because they were persecuted. The best example I know of where this occurs is the cult, Jehovah's Witnesses. They go door to door "spreading the Gospel" while most folks think of them as nuisances. They regularly have doors slammed in their faces, and were even a target of Hitler's. Now, you might think it would dawn on them they were doing something wrong because most people do not like them. Wrong. They interpret the harassment as a sign that they are noble. They're not. They are obnoxious idiots who pester people who don't want their "Gospel."
This syndrome evidences itself in many other ways. We all can think of hate magnets at the Shroomery. People who seem to go out of their way to make others dislike them. They are, in sum, a troll of another color. Yet, I think, they suffer from the same delusion. They think they are right and all the others are wrong.
 What other types of martyrs can you think of?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Yet, I think, they suffer from the same delusion. They think they are right and all the others are wrong.
What makes you so sure I'm deluded?
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
#12722520 - 06/10/10 07:28 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I'm not talking about you, ya ninny. I'm talking about the other guys. Sheesh, do I have to explain EVERYTHING?
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
#12722526 - 06/10/10 07:29 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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And how come no one wants to post in my thread?
Do you think it is too deep?
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Icelander
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
I'm not talking about you, ya ninny. I'm talking about the other guys. Sheesh, do I have to explain EVERYTHING?
But I want it to be about me. 
It might be said about Jesus too. Most profits and saviors and saints and seers really don't have a clue how time will play things out. I was just reading today about the development of Christianity in the Roman empire. I really wonder if Jesus would have wanted anything to do with that BS.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
#12722861 - 06/10/10 08:26 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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You assume they died because they thought they were right and everyone else is wrong.
Don't you think some of them died, in part, because everyone else thought they were right?
I think when these big deaths happen, there is an effect which might be a good thing. When a peaceful person is put to death, every single person involved, who had no reason to send them to their death, has the potential to feel regret and so learn from their mistake. Take Socrates for example. If he hadn't been put to death, and if the choice hadn't been so unpopular, you wouldn't even know who Plato or Socrates was, they would be just two more forgotten dead men.
I challenge you to argue that Socrates thought he was right. It is just not in the text of Plato at all, in fact, the dialogues point to a Socrates who confessed that he did not know. Is that thinking you're right? Hell no. Is it right? Well, what is right? I don't know.
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OrgoneConclusion
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No one can be prompted to hate another unless that is already part of their being.
Do you see MLK and Gandhi as proud martyrs or as courageous people who sought to correct injustice - even at great personal risk?
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husk
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: xFrockx]
#12722985 - 06/10/10 08:47 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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How about the buddhist monk that burned himself in NAM?? u know the one on RATM's self titled cover???
i mean, yes he thought his belief system was right or he wouldn't have killed himself, he also saw it as an oportunity to attaract media attention and show his resolve to the world, he dosen't make a sound or move until he is dead. Now that kind of martyrdom may have been because he thought WAR is wrong. however given what he knew about conciousness, duality and subjective perspective AND what we know, i can't help but agree that he was right. that war is wrong or at least pointless.
but is not every action we take because we think we are right? and that any form of resistance to our action is wrong?? do you not feel that the feeling of hunger is wrong, and thus take the "right" action of eating to fix the situation?
Is not the cause of all action the belief that we will achieve something? that whatever we reap from our action will fill or at least destract us from the void within us? at the same time is not turning inwards to witness the void we percieve as our conciosness' inability to see itself through the filter of the ego based on our belief that it is a better way to live?
i dunno exactly what to discuss here actually.....so excuse my ramblings.......i felt it was the right thing to do 
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xFrockx
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I see them as neither. Anyone who had lived the same lives as them would have done the same thing. Oh wait...
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Icelander]
#12722989 - 06/10/10 08:48 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
I'm not talking about you, ya ninny. I'm talking about the other guys. Sheesh, do I have to explain EVERYTHING?
But I want it to be about me.
It might be said about Jesus too. Most profits and saviors and saints and seers really don't have a clue how time will play things out. I was just reading today about the development of Christianity in the Roman empire. I really wonder if Jesus would have wanted anything to do with that BS.
Hard to say. Your mind went where mine went with Jesus. After thinking about it though I remembered he did what he did out of obedience rather than because people were slamming him. Most of the common people liked him. It was the Scribes and Pharisees whose skin he got under. Jesus bugged the people in power. You could say that wasn't wise unless a higher authority was involved, i.e his Father.
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xFrockx
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: husk]
#12722994 - 06/10/10 08:49 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well he was the one who killed himself, some martyrs are killed by others.
"but is not every action we take because we think we are right? and that any form of resistance to our action is wrong??"
Every action? There's no such thing as multiple actions instead of in your head, its all one follow-through. Also, I don't actively think about whether I am right when I do everything, do you?
"do you not feel that the feeling of hunger is wrong, and thus take the "right" action of eating to fix the situation?"
No, I don't see it as a situation of right or wrong. Whether or not I eat, and what I eat, isn't a game to win.
Edited by xFrockx (06/10/10 08:51 PM)
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
No one can be prompted to hate another unless that is already part of their being.
Do you see MLK and Gandhi as proud martyrs or as courageous people who sought to correct injustice - even at great personal risk?
I think it's hard to say what psychology each man had. You're right though. No one can hate unless it is part of them. I think everyone has that part. The type of psychology I am talking about is evident within groups, like my Shroomery example. Why are certain people hate magnets? I have no idea. What makes JW's proud martyrs? And they are certainly not the only "christian" group I have known like that.
I think the same psychology might be evident in other groups that pride themselves on being different. "Come ye out from among them...and God shall make unto himself a peculiar people." They seem like freaks and weirdos seeking some kind of freakish justification for their weirdness.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: xFrockx]
#12723043 - 06/10/10 08:56 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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I once hit my thumb with a hammer.
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OrgoneConclusion
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Sure, but who can judge why another is different? I remember the hippie days when cops and rednecks beat the shit out of peaceful back-to-nature types for no reason other than their difference. Opting out of the status quo sometimes just feels right and is not for attention.
Doing something wrong for a long time (slavery for example) does not give it validity. Many whites drew intense hate (nigger-lovers) simply for challenging the prevailing paradigm. They did not seek to become hate magnets even though they accepted that might be part of the price.
Do you feel nothing should be questioned because someone might become upset?
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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (06/10/10 09:58 PM)
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teknix
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What about the suicide bombers? Their extremist beliefs glorify martyrdom.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Sure, but who can juge why another is different? I remember the hippie days when cops and rednecks beat the shit out of peaceful back-to-nature types for no reason other than their difference. Opting out of the status quo sometimes just feels right and is not for attention.
Sometimes is key.
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Doing something wrong for a long time (slavery for example) does not give it validity. Many whites drew intense hate (nigger-lovers) simply for challenging the prevailing paradigm. They did not seek to become hate magnets even though they accepted that might be part of the price.
All true. I'm not saying there isn't a time to buck authority or go against the grain. I am only talking about people who do this when the cost/benefit ratio, other than psychological, does not warrant it. It is a truism that no one does anything without some kind of reward--objectivism, Ayn Rand. So the question becomes what kind of "benefit" are these freaks getting? There must be some payoff, right?
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you feel nothing should be questioned because someone might become upset?
Absolutely not. I thumb my nose at authority as a matter of course. I "march to the beat of a different drummer." Some people get their panties in a twist over nothing. I am not responsible for their reaction unless I know, specifically, in advance, what that reaction will be. Then, and only then, will I share a portion of the responsibility.
Sometimes there is a just cause, other times there's a just because. It is the latter cases to which I am referring.
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Icelander
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But once he was dead guys like Paul took over and took it in his own direction imo. Then there came the organized church with priests and all that involvement in govt. which supported it as a way to control people and make them obedient to the current culture and on and on and Jesus is turning over in his grave.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,299
Last seen: 1 month, 14 days
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
While discussing Socrates' demise here, something dawned on me. Many a martyr has thought they were on the path of enlightenment because they were persecuted. The best example I know of where this occurs is the cult, Jehovah's Witnesses. They go door to door "spreading the Gospel" while most folks think of them as nuisances. They regularly have doors slammed in their faces, and were even a target of Hitler's. Now, you might think it would dawn on them they were doing something wrong because most people do not like them. Wrong. They interpret the harassment as a sign that they are noble. They're not. They are obnoxious idiots who pester people who don't want their "Gospel."
This syndrome evidences itself in many other ways. We all can think of hate magnets at the Shroomery. People who seem to go out of their way to make others dislike them. They are, in sum, a troll of another color. Yet, I think, they suffer from the same delusion. They think they are right and all the others are wrong.
What other types of martyrs can you think of?
I could imagine multiple contradictory explanations for martyrs, but every martyr will still be unique.
Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Freedom]
#12723966 - 06/10/10 11:39 PM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...
Eggsactly.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: The Martyr Syndrome [Re: Freedom]
#12724988 - 06/11/10 07:40 AM (12 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
Getting inside the heads of people we don't know seems more like an exercise of fantasy than deduction or induction...
So the entire field of psychology is an exercise in fantasy. That's good to know for the mentally deranged.
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