|
Titus_Pullo
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Free will and Toxoplasma
#12719574 - 06/10/10 09:07 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Not sure if it has already been posted, but in case you haven't heard about toxoplasma read this: http://www.boingboing.net/2010/06/04/how-cat-poo-parasite.html
Sorry. I'm not sure how to embed the video in the link.
Pretty bizarre to think that their could be several parasites that have been affecting our actions, mood, personality all life long. Makes you think that free will really is an illusion because there are/could be an infinite amount of things dictating how we are. Apparently 66% of Brazil is infected with this parasite which causes females to be more submissive and men to be more aggressive.
Also, it really suggests that we can never know who we are. We will never be able to experience our minds unadulterated because of the infinite stimuli which cause you to think and act a certain way.
Edited by Titus_Pullo (06/10/10 09:09 AM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12719589 - 06/10/10 09:12 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I agree. There are huge amounts of bacteria in our bodies. The illusion of a single self is convenient for personal survival but is an delusion of the mind imo.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
the human abstract
malaka the werewolf
Registered: 11/30/09
Posts: 8,817
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12719600 - 06/10/10 09:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
i believe the unity is mainly in our higher self.. sorry no proof tho
-------------------- ★★★ ★
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
Well you need some in this forum.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Titus_Pullo
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12719609 - 06/10/10 09:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
While "proof" and sources are welcome, I don't think the discussion should be limited to it. I'm open to comments such as the one above as long as they try to explain themselves logically.
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 2 hours
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12719665 - 06/10/10 09:29 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
"Also, it really suggests that we can never know who we are. We will never be able to experience our minds unadulterated because of the infinite stimuli which cause you to think and act a certain way. "
To say naturally occuring inhabitants of our body are adulterants is to put human standards on a natural process. We always have an unadulterated perception because our perception is all the different things that make it up, it isn't something basic that gets added too, there is no fundamental "layer" of perception, it is merely the intersection of all those factors which lead to its manifestation.
Edited by xFrockx (06/10/10 09:30 AM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12719693 - 06/10/10 09:38 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Titus_Pullo said: While "proof" and sources are welcome, I don't think the discussion should be limited to it. I'm open to comments such as the one above as long as they try to explain themselves logically.
Prove it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Titus_Pullo
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12719726 - 06/10/10 09:46 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
xFrockx said: "Also, it really suggests that we can never know who we are. We will never be able to experience our minds unadulterated because of the infinite stimuli which cause you to think and act a certain way. "
To say naturally occuring inhabitants of our body are adulterants is to put human standards on a natural process. We always have an unadulterated perception because our perception is all the different things that make it up, it isn't something basic that gets added too, there is no fundamental "layer" of perception, it is merely the intersection of all those factors which lead to its manifestation.
Good points. Some are natural, but some if not most are not. What about the toxoplasma? What about a newborn baby? Even then there are things affecting what you are. A prime example is a baby being addicted and affected by their mothers heroin/tobacco/cocaine/alcohol addiction. Even at such an early stage your mind has been adulterated by foreign substances which affects the way your whole life plays out.
Quote:
xFrockx said: "Also, it really suggests that we can never know who we are. We will never be able to experience our minds unadulterated because of the infinite stimuli which cause you to think and act a certain way. "
To say naturally occuring inhabitants of our body are adulterants is to put human standards on a natural process. We always have an unadulterated perception because our perception is all the different things that make it up, it isn't something basic that gets added too, there is no fundamental "layer" of perception, it is merely the intersection of all those factors which lead to its manifestation.
Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
Titus_Pullo said: While "proof" and sources are welcome, I don't think the discussion should be limited to it. I'm open to comments such as the one above as long as they try to explain themselves logically.
Prove it.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12719812 - 06/10/10 10:10 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
That's not much proof.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Titus_Pullo
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12720094 - 06/10/10 11:17 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Don't derail the thread. It's got potential
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12720144 - 06/10/10 11:27 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
No one can derail a thread if it's got potential.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12720473 - 06/10/10 12:48 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
But it seems that doesn't stop you from trying.
Anyway, I think addiction is another good example that pokes holes in the idea of free will.
Basically, the way I look at it is thus: We exist, and we make decisions. Thus, we have will. "Free" is a relative term -- you are always free from some things, and restrained by others.
Only an imaginary ideal entity, such as God, could have perfectly free will. What if I want to run 45 miles per hour today? Sorry, can't do it. I don't have that freedom. Perfect freedom seems to me like it would be the same thing as infinite power, and no infinitely powerful entity exists.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: laserpig]
#12721004 - 06/10/10 02:40 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
/end
Now what do you want to talk about?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12721572 - 06/10/10 04:26 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Alcohol or women.
You chose.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
|
I find them both a bit tedious.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12721800 - 06/10/10 05:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Apparently 66% of Brazil is infected with this parasite which causes females to be more submissive and men to be more aggressive.
I forwarded your links to my lawyer. It might make for a good defense.
--------------------
|
xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,457
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 12 days, 2 hours
|
|
I say this in every Free will/determinism thread I bother to post in:
Your life is neither free nor determined.
Edited by xFrockx (06/10/10 05:59 PM)
|
soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12722141 - 06/10/10 06:21 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I agree. There are huge amounts of bacteria in our bodies. The illusion of a single self is convenient for personal survival but is an delusion of the mind imo.
Our entire bodies are made of living things your body is essential a super complex ecosystem. There are over 400 types of bacteria within the body, many of which are necessary for good health. The concept of a single self is only an illusion if you consider yourself a physical thing.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
laserpig
Weedmaster_P
Registered: 04/28/09
Posts: 7,468
Last seen: 11 years, 10 months
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: soldatheero]
#12722181 - 06/10/10 06:29 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
More fun facts: there are about 100 trillion cells in your body, and only 10 trillion of them are human. The other 90% are bacteria and shit.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: laserpig]
#12722454 - 06/10/10 07:12 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Yeah, there is no me. Yipee!
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Mr. Mushrooms
Spore Print Collector
Registered: 05/25/08
Posts: 13,018
Loc: Registered: 6/04/02
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: laserpig]
#12722553 - 06/10/10 07:33 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
laserpig said: More fun facts: there are about 100 trillion cells in your body, and only 10 trillion of them are human. The other 90% are bacteria and shit.
That's it. I'm blaming the bacteria from now on.
"Honest Hoffacer, it was the bacteria made me do it."
--------------------
|
soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
|
Quote:
Yeah, there is no me. Yipee!
No this is when you realize you are not your body but there is still a you and therefore life after the destruction of the body is more then plausible.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
|
|
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:
laserpig said: More fun facts: there are about 100 trillion cells in your body, and only 10 trillion of them are human. The other 90% are bacteria and shit.
That's it. I'm blaming the bacteria from now on.
"Honest Hoffacer, it was the bacteria made me do it."
I always check the back of the neck for that alien wormy thingie...
--------------------
|
falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,035
Last seen: 22 hours, 48 minutes
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12723524 - 06/10/10 10:10 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Titus_Pullo said: Also, it really suggests that we can never know who we are. We will never be able to experience our minds unadulterated because of the infinite stimuli which cause you to think and act a certain way.
I disagree, I think it suggests that we can identify stimuli that cause us to think and act a certain way. Given that we can identify stimuli that cause us to think and act a certain way, we can know that part of, who we are.
|
Titus_Pullo
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: soldatheero]
#12724018 - 06/10/10 11:50 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
soldatheero said:
Quote:
Yeah, there is no me. Yipee!
No this is when you realize you are not your body but there is still a you and therefore life after the destruction of the body is more then plausible.
If your mind, mood, behavior and consciousness can be affected by physical, material entities then how can you say that "you" are not your body? To me it suggests the opposite. Although I could imagine that death is consciousness unadulterated.
|
soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/09/07
Posts: 2,856
Loc:
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12724824 - 06/11/10 06:38 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
You can go a step further and say that you are not your mind, mood, and behavior but for the most part you are a slave to your mind a slave to your desires. When I say mind I do not mean experience\being\consciousness.
-------------------- ..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
|
Titus_Pullo
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: soldatheero]
#12725556 - 06/11/10 10:45 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So we are a slave to the ego...What is the ego but our most primal, instinctive desires derived from our evolution? It just goes to show that our consciousness is being affected by even more things, and I think the ego affecting consciousness plays a much bigger role than bacteria and parasites. Everything we think and do doesn't even resemble our true selves. Our identities are completely superficial.
Edited by Titus_Pullo (06/11/10 10:47 AM)
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12725759 - 06/11/10 11:38 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
What "true" self? All of it is true or it wouldn't be happening.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Titus_Pullo
Registered: 01/23/10
Posts: 461
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12726330 - 06/11/10 01:44 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Icelander said: What "true" self? All of it is true or it wouldn't be happening.
True self is your unadulterated consciousness, of course that is simply my opinion. But I do understand your argument, and it definitely holds merit.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12726420 - 06/11/10 02:01 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
IMO evolution makes sure that consciousness is never unadultered.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,062
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Icelander]
#12727758 - 06/11/10 05:59 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
is mood will?
-------------------- _ 🧠 _
|
Cognitive_Shift
CS actual
Registered: 12/11/07
Posts: 29,591
|
|
I believe in free will confined to the initial conditions of the universe. For instance i can choose to take the right in the fork in the road but i cannot fly to new york because the initial conditions presented by the universe prevents me from doing this.
Interesting to read about parasites effecting mood and actions...
-------------------- L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs
|
Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12728922 - 06/11/10 10:32 PM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Cordyceps (a fungus) enters insect brains and takes control, compelling them to climb to the extreme top of whatever is nearby and stay there until the fungus releases spores to reproduce.
Even more amazing is that each species of cordyceps produces PRECISELY the right set of molecules for its target species of host insect and no other. It's one of the most interesting and most bizarre examples of co-evolution in nature. And downright creepy.
Listen to the NPR Radiolab show about other similar organisms. You will thank me for the link afterward! Trust me.
http://www.wnyc.org/stream/ram?file=/radiolab/radiolab092509.mp3
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Diploid]
#12730651 - 06/12/10 09:33 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I think that any freely willing person in the ideal sense would still be limited by important factors: options physically and mentally available, and, appetites and moods that give impetus in certain directions toward and away from stimuli. All that taxoplasma shows is that our moods and feelings are mediated by physical functions in the brain (which we knew already). So are our possible actions or thought processes - mediated by the brain and body.
--------------------
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Diploid]
#12730807 - 06/12/10 10:11 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Cordyceps (a fungus) enters insect brains and takes control, compelling them to climb to the extreme top of whatever is nearby and stay there until the fungus releases spores to reproduce.
Even more amazing is that each species of cordyceps produces PRECISELY the right set of molecules for its target species of host insect and no other. It's one of the most interesting and most bizarre examples of co-evolution in nature. And downright creepy.
Listen to the NPR Radiolab show about other similar organisms. You will thank me for the link afterward! Trust me.
http://www.wnyc.org/stream/ram?file=/radiolab/radiolab092509.mp3
That's so weird.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand
Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 11 years, 29 days
|
Re: Free will and Toxoplasma [Re: Titus_Pullo]
#12730936 - 06/12/10 10:56 AM (13 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
The human 'organism' is a complex interaction between a variety of semi-autonomous parts that combine into a seemingly 'whole' human. My stomach makes my legs want to walk to the fridge, parasites steer me to the litter box.
Video was fascinating.
And hey, if these parasites can produce dopamine and get the rats high on cat piss, what does this mean for natural high-inducing, dopamine or serotonin promoting, drugs? Have we all been duped by the parasitic psilocybin mushrooms to spread their spores about?
I'd say the trade-off was worth it, but why did they have to go and make us post on this God-forsaken website?
|
|