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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms?
    #12694559 - 06/05/10 11:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well I'd like to grow the best, in quality and volume, and I'm just wondering is Hpoo is essential for this, or if I can get the same results using coir/coffee/gypsum.

Is hpoo needed to produce the best flushes?


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Offlinegreg86jgl
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12694631 - 06/05/10 11:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I have searched a lot and haven't seen a difference in volume or quality. I only used coir vermic coffee in mono tubs. The least I've ended up with is 5oz dry. Quality is usualy good but that has to do with gynetics.


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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: greg86jgl]
    #12696987 - 06/06/10 12:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

bump


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OfflineBentley
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12697086 - 06/06/10 12:57 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Both manure and coir perform the same.

They both hold nutritional value to myc. Equally.


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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Bentley]
    #12697121 - 06/06/10 01:04 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've never used poo. :shrug:


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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Doc_T]
    #12697496 - 06/06/10 02:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Doc_T said:
I've never used poo. :shrug:




Do you use anything other then coir/coffee/gypsum in your sub? Like worm castings or straw or compost?


Edited by doornoblightbulb (06/06/10 02:10 PM)


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OfflineBentley
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12697567 - 06/06/10 02:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"First of all, it's manure.  Poo is what mommy used to change out of your diaper.

Second, coir and horse manure are about equal in performance.  Both work very well and have excellent texture, colonization speeds, fruiting performance, moisture retention, etc.  If you live in a big city and make lots of money, buy coir from any pet shop.  If you live in the country and/or don't mind going into a field with a shovel, horse manure is free and therefore a better choice.

Third, most garden gypsum is remnants from drywall manufacturing plants in the US. Mine even has the brown and white paper scraps in it. If you live in china, it's made from the toxic wastes scrubbed from the smoke stacks of coal burning power plants and very toxic.  Some was shipped to the US during the housing  boom, but the owners of most of those houses are having to tear it all out.
RR"

A little more info.


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12697608 - 06/06/10 02:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If you can get FREE h/poo?
It rocks.

Coir works okay but cost money.

I get FREE h/poo by the pick up truck load.
They even load my truck for me FREE.......

I'm no fecal freak, but I love h/poo.

If you cannot get h/poo, go with coir.
you can perk up coir nutes with lots of things.
Just don't go crazy with additives.

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/tea/tea1.htm

Hydrating coir with compost tea helps & is toilet flush simple.


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CASING = GETTING IT RIGHT


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OfflineDreamtime
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12697827 - 06/06/10 03:14 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

sorry to hijack your thread, will pan cans do well on coir as apposed to being spawn with poo then?


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Dreamtime]
    #12699046 - 06/06/10 07:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I think might warrant its own thread man lol, its a completely different topic.


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Dreamtime]
    #12699540 - 06/06/10 08:17 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

san rainbow said:
sorry to hijack your thread, will pan cans do well on coir as apposed to being spawn with poo then?





NO


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OfflineDreamtime
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12700600 - 06/06/10 11:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
I think might warrant its own thread man lol, its a completely different topic.




Sorry dood, just got excited when Bentley Said

"coir and horse manure are about equal in performance.  Both work very well and have excellent texture, colonization speeds, fruiting performance"

vibes bro and good luck growing!


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OfflinePsuper
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Bentley]
    #12701391 - 06/07/10 02:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
Well I'd like to grow the best, in quality and volume, and I'm just wondering is Hpoo is essential for this, or if I can get the same results using coir/coffee/gypsum.

Is hpoo needed to produce the best flushes?




Well, who decided that increased volume means quality?

My favorite specimens to eat or share with a few close friends are shorter, larger capped specimens that haven't begun to thin the veil.  Obviously harvested without thought to the final weight. 

Seems like a funny question, just saying.

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
If you can get FREE h/poo?
It rocks.

Coir works okay but cost money.





Yeah, folks who are paying for manure are chumps.  Same with purchasing coco-coir or straw at a pet store. Chumps.

Coco-coir bricks are cheaper when purchased in packs at hydroponic shops and quality nurseries.

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:

http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/airwaste/wm/recycle/tea/tea1.htm

Hydrating coir with compost tea helps & is toilet flush simple.





Neat.  I know plenty of composters, I'll have to try this sometime at your recommendation.

Quote:

Doc_T said:
I've never used poo. :shrug:





What an interesting post.....


Quote:

Bentley said:
Both manure and coir perform the same.

They both hold nutritional value to myc. Equally.





You're saying that manure (from herbivores) in general is always perfectly "equal" to any coco-coir?  I think that is way too much of a blanket statement. ~P~


--------------------
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Dreamtime]
    #12701394 - 06/07/10 02:45 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

As said above, the performance factor is about the same.
And coir is indeed much more expensive in most cases.

But what wasn't mentioned yet, is that coir can be used without any kind of heat treatment, while manure can't.

Although it's advised, to even pasteurized coir based substrates, I never do it and never get any kind of contamination. It really is time saving not having to pasteurize a substrate, which makes it the perfect substrate for a busy lazy-ass like I am.

Bad thing is, that it's only good for Cubes:shrug:
Pans indeed need manure.


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OfflineDreamtime
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Fahkface]
    #12701426 - 06/07/10 02:56 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fahkface said:

But what wasn't mentioned yet, is that coir can be used without any kind of heat treatment, while manure can't.

Although it's advised, to even pasteurized coir based substrates, I never do it and never get any kind of contamination. It really is time saving not having to pasteurize a substrate, which makes it the perfect substrate for a busy lazy-ass like I am.

Bad thing is, that it's only good for Cubes:shrug:
Pans indeed need manure.




I am still learning the craft, so I would want to be as sterile as possible...

I was led to believe that coir could be sterilized as apposed to pasteurized as there were no good stuff to kill?

is this the case?

cheers


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Dreamtime]
    #12701466 - 06/07/10 03:10 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

san rainbow said:
Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
I think might warrant its own thread man lol, its a completely different topic.




Sorry dood, just got excited when Bentley Said

"coir and horse manure are about equal in performance.  Both work very well and have excellent texture, colonization speeds, fruiting performance"

vibes bro and good luck growing!




I beg to slightly differ.
A decade of my own experience & those close to me.
Gives us the opinion optimal h/poo substrate.
Results in more potency than coir substrates.

There is no hard scientific evidence to back that up.
But, a decade of use at least to me and those close to me does.

That is not to say, nor assert a coir substrate will not produce potent shrooms.
Coir does.

But my humble opinion is that h/poo adds something, coir lacks.
I think it "may" be a higher "N" content of h/poo substrates.

No way am I trying to create an argument.
Just my personal opinion from my own use & others I have witnessed.

At burning man, I watched a body painted guy wearing an Indian headdress.
Who had done some h/poo grown shrooms I grew sway in the moonlight, holding his dick in one hand taking a leak & drinking bottled water with his other hand at the same time.

The next day, I told him I had never seen anyone do that at the same time.
He laughed & told me he could feel the water going in as he swallowed it, the water passing through & out.
Like he was some sort of an eternal “river”  recycling water.

Man, that MoFo was HIGH…………….LOL.......:awesomenod:


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OfflineFahkface
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Dreamtime]
    #12701475 - 06/07/10 03:11 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Coir can be used in pretty much any way.
However, I use it for years now without any kind of treatment and don't have any contam issues. And it's definitely not because my growing environment is all so clean.

People have successfully used sterilized coir. Many more people successfully use pasteurized coir.

I have never analyzed coir in a way that would tell me what micro organisms and fungi are present in it, but the general rule of thumb for any kind of substrates in a non-sterile environment is pasteurization. In the end coir is plant material and should contain certain "things" that Cubes love.

Go ahead and try and I'm pretty sure you won't have any problems. But I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have any problems using it without doing anything:shrug:.


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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Fahkface]
    #12701762 - 06/07/10 06:21 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I might get knocked a bit for my advice, but Ive found that the BEST is straw... you don't really need manure for bigger yields. Personally, Ive done both. I actually get better yeilds using worm castings and straw spawned with millet and kept that formula for a while. Now Im on straight straw and millet and casing is a compost/peat/coir mix, and found that its more about how you bring them up rather than deviations in substrate... to an extent. Lemme explain...

Citing Stamets...

One of the easiest mushrooms to grow, this species fruits on a wide variety of substrates within broad environmental parameters. As a primary and secondary decomposer, Psilocybe cubensis fruits well on untreated pasteurized straw and on horse manure/straw composts transformed by microbial activity. Sterilized grain typically produces smaller mushrooms than bulk substrates.


To answer your question... I do not think Horse Manure is totally essential for top-notch mushers, but do not forget that Manure is part of the Cubensis natural environment: sub-tropical and tropical zones, as well as pastureland's loaded with manure. If you do go with manure, don't over-process it.

I would focus on keeping your temps, humidity, and timing in check... that would be a bigger essential than deciding between coffee or poop for me :smile:  GO DEEP... I recommend 7-8 inches depth for 3-4 good flushes. And its all about the PH.. keep it at 6-7.

Hope that helps!

OH... and I dont use Coir for Cubensis because Coir has no nutritional content... just cellulose and lignin, like what wood-lovers eat up in cardboard and wood chips. I use coir for its moisture-holding capabilities in casing only.  Cubensis doesnt eat cellulose as much as it does carbs and proteins... more predominant in Manure and Straw.

And here is a reference for the nutritional content of straw... http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/uwforage/StrawTable1.htm



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Keep it ReaL.


Edited by UrbanistiC (06/07/10 06:52 AM)


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #12703787 - 06/07/10 03:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

UrbanistiC said:

OH... and I dont use Coir for Cubensis because Coir has no nutritional content...





...I'm sure people on here will refute that. But thanks for your input anyways.

It looks to me like a mix of both coir and manure is ideal. I'm set for coir... and I do live near farm land. I just don't wanna roll up to a farm house in my volvo and be like "yoooo got poop?!"

I guess I'll give it a shot lol.


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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12704009 - 06/07/10 03:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sounds like a good idea! And in fact, don't be afraid to do just that! Best thing to eye for is horses or stables. They will be more than glad to part with some poo, and I bet you ten bucks that you wouldnt have been the first! Just say you need it for your garden! Me, Im not shy, so I let them know I grow mushrooms... portobellos, that is :wink:


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #12704288 - 06/07/10 04:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've fruited coir/vermiculite spawned with wbs and no casing and had 3 flushes and large potent fruits. How would this be possible if coir has no nutritious content? I know the wbs didn't make for all of those fruits


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704311 - 06/07/10 04:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:
I've fruited coir/vermiculite spawned with wbs and no casing and had 3 flushes and large potent fruits. How would this be possible if coir has no nutritious content? I know the wbs didn't make for all of those fruits




The spawned grains add a Tonne of nutrients, hence why straight cased grains can produce some monsters and pretty decent results


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704317 - 06/07/10 04:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:I know the wbs didn't make for all of those fruits




Wrong. Millet is one of the most nutritious grains, if not the most.

Try injecting some spores into coir sometime and tell me how it goes for you.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


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Offlineabitavenger
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #12704333 - 06/07/10 04:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

So you guys are saying coir has no nutritional content?
And I've had good results on cased wbs also...

So we use coir for its water retention and that's pretty much it then? (All I know is that's its been working damn good lol)


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704352 - 06/07/10 04:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:
So you guys are saying coir has no nutritional content?
And I've had good results on cased wbs also...

So we use coir for its water retention and that's pretty much it then? (All I know is that's its been working damn good lol)




Coir is a very good water retainer and has a nice fluffy texture, grains add alot of nutritional value,


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704372 - 06/07/10 04:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That's what I figured. I've never really got into a coir discussion I'm glad I did thanks guys. I'm also going to use more spawn and see if I see a difference in fruits


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704381 - 06/07/10 04:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:
That's what I figured. I've never really got into a coir discussion I'm glad I did thanks guys. I'm also going to use more spawn and see if I see a difference in fruits




I have found it does, I usually spawn 1:2


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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704442 - 06/07/10 05:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Ditto, I like a high spawn ratio as well. And yes, coir does have cellulose and lignin, beneficial to growth, but not nutritional! I feel the best thing about coir is its resistance to contams. The worst thing about coir... ever notice those fungi gnats? I cant remember the name of them, but coir attracts them.

Here is a very nice read about coir and hydroponics... a lot of the principles apply to mycological aspects as well, and it describes that little pest call the Scarid Fly.

Here is a pic of that little bugger...





http://www.texashydroponics.com/shop/product.php?productid=2220

Cited from the link above...

Analysis of Coco Coir Sample S 1978 P 126 K (Potassium) 3700* Na (Sodium) 2022 * Ca 119 Mg 104 Cu Zn 3.2 Mn 3.8 Fe 12.2 B 7 Cl (Chloride) 3498* All figures refer to parts per million (ppm). Above, is an analysis of one batch of hydrated coco coir. It is easy to see that coco coir contains varying levels of micro and macro elements. The most significant elements in the analysis are the high potassium levels and the extremely high sodium and chloride levels (sodium chloride = salt). Potassium competes with magnesium and calcium while sodium competes with potassium for uptake. Furthermore, sodium chloride can be highly toxic to certain species of plants;

So, knowing that analysis, there is a content of potassium, sodium, magnesium, calcium, sodium chloride, etc... which may explain its resistance to contams as well. And Im sure mushrooms utilize some of those macro-elements, as do we in our dietary intake.


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #12704541 - 06/07/10 05:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The answers in this thread are incredibly contradicting.

-Coir and Hpoo are about equal

...

-Coir has no nutrients

...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12704578 - 06/07/10 05:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
The answers in this thread are incredibly contradicting.

-Coir and Hpoo are about equal

...

-Coir has no nutrients

...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?





People do add coffee grounds to there coir you know


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704593 - 06/07/10 05:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
The answers in this thread are incredibly contradicting.

-Coir and Hpoo are about equal

...

-Coir has no nutrients

...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?





People do add coffee grounds to there coir you know




...Did you even read the op? I'm aware of that. But why in gods name would anyone go into a field to pick up and smell poo, if it can be replaced by coir with coffee....


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12704604 - 06/07/10 05:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Because manure(not poo) is free to some so why not


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OfflineAnonomyDominie
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704787 - 06/07/10 06:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

ive always used coir, and I mix in coffee grounds. I dont use alot of grounds, about enough to make 3 12 cup posts of medium strong coffee (i dont know, its 3 pots the way I like it, if it really matters, lol) in each of the 3 128 quart monotubs I use.

It breaks down like this:

2 blocks coir
4 pint jars of verm
3 runs of coffee grounds

all that and 10 jars of grain per tub, and bingo, its party time :smile:


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Posts: 705
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12704866 - 06/07/10 06:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Above 3% N, it's usually to N hot.
Which can (but not always) impede colonization.
About 2.75 N is the max N substrate content you should shoot for.
Just to stay on the safe side.


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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704914 - 06/07/10 06:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This link here has the chemical analysis of both roasted and unroasted coffee...

http://chestofbooks.com/food/beverages/Tea-Coffee-Cocoa/Coffee-Chemical-Composition.html

And it plainly shows that coffee has a great fat and nitrogen content, varying from raw to roasted. And a good ash content that helps as a buffer... naturally keeping coffee in a great pH range for mushrooms due to its lime content as well. So, coir and coffee together makes sense.

But, your question is as follows, so lets try to answer that...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?


The chemical analysis of horse manure can greatly vary, depending on age, decomposition, and leaching. So, lets base it on what I hear all the time, aged and leached...

After reading this manual on horse manure management, its clear that composted steer manure has reduced parasites, ammonia, salts, etc... which makes it better. Hence, aged manure is best.

According to EnviroHorse who did a study on the run-off of manure, they found that quote "aged horse manure left exposed on the ground for seven days does not contain sufficient nitrogen to be considered as a fertilizer, although it is considered a superior soil amendment.". And when it comes out of the horses ass, quote "The 1% residual nitrogen in the manure is consistent with the amount of nitrogen found in the fibrous residues of grasses on uncultivated ground". In other words, the same nitrogen content as grasses.

Nutritional content of aged/composted steer manure is as follows...

Manure Horse   Steer
N-P-K .70 .30 .60  .70 .30 .40

Sources: Rodale's All-New Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening, An Illustrated Guide to Organic Gardening, by Sunset Publishing, and the Rodale Guide to Composting. Note: Nutrient values of manures vary greatly, depending on the diet and age of the animals, and the nature and quantity of bedding in the mix.

Further reading shows that the way you measure the analysis can greatly vary depending on approach and timing, so it varies depending on age... http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A3769.pdf

Essentially, a common aged manure has the content I described above. And manure beats coir and coffee.

As far as lacing coir with nitrogen, that's like hydroponic mushies, and its been done in 1939 based on this abstract... Growth of fungi in synthetic nutrient solutions. Now, it costs 34 dollars to see that study, so I cannot relay any data from that study. There is a plethora of discussions involving additives on this site that could answer that question for you if you want to pursue an additive method vs. a naturally occurring method.

Large scale growers will compost their own mix of ingredients depending on the needs of the mushroom. From this post HERE, the cubensis nutritional need is as follows...


Mushrooms require:

Carbon (glucose, sucrose, dextrose) ~2%
Nitrogen
Sulfur (10-4M)
Phosphorus (10-3M)
Potassium (10-3M)
Magnesium (10-3M)
Iron (10-6M)
Zinc (10-8M)
Manganese (10-7M)
Copper (10-6 to 10-7M)
Molybdenum (10-9M) (Some mushrooms)

Some mushrooms require Thiamine (vitamin B1) at about 100 ug/L.  Some also require biotin (vitamin B7) at about 5 ug/L.  A few also require B3 and B5.

Many of these elements are required in such small amounts that it's hard to determine the requirement because it's hard to exclude such small amounts from your experiment.

Here are some minimal media formulations in common use...

Mushroom Minimal Medium (MMM)
------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Agar 20.0g


Mushroom Complete Medium (MCM)
-------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g


Yeast Complete Medium (YCM)
----------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 5g
Yeast Extract 5g


Mushroom Complete Mineral Medium (MCMM)
----------------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g
Mineral solution 10cc (4 mg ZnSO4.7H2O, 1mg CuSO4.4H2O, 7 mg MnCl2.4H2O, 10 mg FeSO4.7H2O)


Now, as stated in the original post, there isnt a nitrogen requirement. But, based on this thread that follows, its directly relates with potency as nitrogen is required to make the alkaloid in the first place...  Nitrogen As Key To Potency

In Stamets Mushroom Cultivator book, there is a large section dealing with nitrogen content and compost, manure, additives, etc. Here is a bit of what he says...

Straw provides a compost with carbohydrates, the basic food stuffs of mushroom nutrition. Wheat straw is 36% cellulose, 25% pentosan and 1 6% lignin. Cellulose and pentosan are carbohydrates
which upon break down yield simple sugars. These sugars supply the energy for microbial growth. Lignin, a highly resistant material also found in the heartwood of trees, is changed during composting to a "Nitrogen-rich-lignin-hurnus-complex", a source of protein. In essence, straw is a
material with the structural and chemical properties ideal for making a mushroom compost.


Again, this leads to additives, and he describes them in the book... worth reading to understand the simple yet complex nature of composting and achieving ideal content.

Furthermore, its known that the ratio of carbon to nitrogen is also important. Carbon component is obtained from materials such as straw while the nitrogen comes from manure.

In essence, there is no minimum requirement of nitrogen. But, the better source of nitrogen, carbon, and other essentials discussed in depth in the Nitrogen As Key To Potency thread I listed above will greatly increase potency.

So, the question is... how would you like to grow them, as additives and formulations give you full control on potency... obviously! I think this leads me to a conclusion that the BEST way isnt limited to manure/straw or Coir, since you can apply additives to both and essentially increase potency.


--------------------
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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12704919 - 06/07/10 06:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
Above 3% N, it's usually to N hot.
Which can (but not always) impede colonization.
About 2.75 N is the max N substrate content you should shoot for.
Just to stay on the safe side.




You better believe it, good point!


--------------------
Keep it ReaL.


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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #12704940 - 06/07/10 06:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
Because manure(not poo) is free to some so why not




Well I have a job... So I'd rather work for an hour, and buy 15-20 blocks of coir, then spend an hour hunting for shit... lol.

Quote:

UrbanistiC said:
This link here has the chemical analysis of both roasted and unroasted coffee...

http://chestofbooks.com/food/beverages/Tea-Coffee-Cocoa/Coffee-Chemical-Composition.html

And it plainly shows that coffee has a great fat and nitrogen content, varying from raw to roasted. And a good ash content that helps as a buffer... naturally keeping coffee in a great pH range for mushrooms due to its lime content as well. So, coir and coffee together makes sense.

But, your question is as follows, so lets try to answer that...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?


The chemical analysis of horse manure can greatly vary, depending on age, decomposition, and leaching. So, lets base it on what I hear all the time, aged and leached...

After reading this manual on horse manure management, its clear that composted steer manure has reduced parasites, ammonia, salts, etc... which makes it better. Hence, aged manure is best.

According to EnviroHorse who did a study on the run-off of manure, they found that quote "aged horse manure left exposed on the ground for seven days does not contain sufficient nitrogen to be considered as a fertilizer, although it is considered a superior soil amendment.". And when it comes out of the horses ass, quote "The 1% residual nitrogen in the manure is consistent with the amount of nitrogen found in the fibrous residues of grasses on uncultivated ground". In other words, the same nitrogen content as grasses.

Nutritional content of aged/composted steer manure is as follows...

Manure Horse   Steer
N-P-K .70 .30 .60  .70 .30 .40

Sources: Rodale's All-New Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening, An Illustrated Guide to Organic Gardening, by Sunset Publishing, and the Rodale Guide to Composting. Note: Nutrient values of manures vary greatly, depending on the diet and age of the animals, and the nature and quantity of bedding in the mix.

Further reading shows that the way you measure the analysis can greatly vary depending on approach and timing, so it varies depending on age... http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A3769.pdf

Essentially, a common aged manure has the content I described above. And manure beats coir and coffee.

As far as lacing coir with nitrogen, that's like hydroponic mushies, and its been done in 1939 based on this abstract... Growth of fungi in synthetic nutrient solutions. Now, it costs 34 dollars to see that study, so I cannot relay any data from that study. There is a plethora of discussions involving additives on this site that could answer that question for you if you want to pursue an additive method vs. a naturally occurring method.

Large scale growers will compost their own mix of ingredients depending on the needs of the mushroom. From this post HERE, the cubensis nutritional need is as follows...


Mushrooms require:

Carbon (glucose, sucrose, dextrose) ~2%
Nitrogen
Sulfur (10-4M)
Phosphorus (10-3M)
Potassium (10-3M)
Magnesium (10-3M)
Iron (10-6M)
Zinc (10-8M)
Manganese (10-7M)
Copper (10-6 to 10-7M)
Molybdenum (10-9M) (Some mushrooms)

Some mushrooms require Thiamine (vitamin B1) at about 100 ug/L.  Some also require biotin (vitamin B7) at about 5 ug/L.  A few also require B3 and B5.

Many of these elements are required in such small amounts that it's hard to determine the requirement because it's hard to exclude such small amounts from your experiment.

Here are some minimal media formulations in common use...

Mushroom Minimal Medium (MMM)
------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Agar 20.0g


Mushroom Complete Medium (MCM)
-------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g


Yeast Complete Medium (YCM)
----------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 5g
Yeast Extract 5g


Mushroom Complete Mineral Medium (MCMM)
----------------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g
Mineral solution 10cc (4 mg ZnSO4.7H2O, 1mg CuSO4.4H2O, 7 mg MnCl2.4H2O, 10 mg FeSO4.7H2O)


Now, as stated in the original post, there isnt a nitrogen requirement. But, based on this thread that follows, its directly relates with potency as nitrogen is required to make the alkaloid in the first place...  Nitrogen As Key To Potency

In Stamets Mushroom Cultivator book, there is a large section dealing with nitrogen content and compost, manure, additives, etc. Here is a bit of what he says...

Straw provides a compost with carbohydrates, the basic food stuffs of mushroom nutrition. Wheat straw is 36% cellulose, 25% pentosan and 1 6% lignin. Cellulose and pentosan are carbohydrates
which upon break down yield simple sugars. These sugars supply the energy for microbial growth. Lignin, a highly resistant material also found in the heartwood of trees, is changed during composting to a "Nitrogen-rich-lignin-hurnus-complex", a source of protein. In essence, straw is a
material with the structural and chemical properties ideal for making a mushroom compost.


Again, this leads to additives, and he describes them in the book... worth reading to understand the simple yet complex nature of composting and achieving ideal content.

Furthermore, its known that the ratio of carbon to nitrogen is also important. Carbon component is obtained from materials such as straw while the nitrogen comes from manure.

In essence, there is no minimum requirement of nitrogen. But, the better source of nitrogen, carbon, and other essentials discussed in depth in the Nitrogen As Key To Potency thread I listed above will greatly increase potency.

So, the question is... how would you like to grow them, as additives and formulations give you full control on potency... obviously! I think this leads me to a conclusion that the BEST way isnt limited to manure/straw or Coir, since you can apply additives to both and essentially increase potency.




Interesting. This was quite informative, thanks.


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Invisibleanonjon
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Posts: 6,322
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12705086 - 06/07/10 07:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Another rockin post Urban.

I experimented with using bloodmeal for nitrogen. I did get excellent potency. And it was the same clone strain that I used on straight straw, which turned out to be poorly potent. However there are other possible causes for all of this, so I don't draw any conclusions.

I didnt mix it in good enough and in some places it was kinda smeared across the surface in high concentrations, as I had reached into the bucket; grabbed the last couple handfulls and smeared it on.

In those places, the knotting was quite excessive, causing serious mutation when all these primordia were melding into each other trying to make a proper fruitbody.

My pure speculation is that psilocybin has something to do with the signaling for fruiting. The bloodmeal stimulates the production of psilocybin which in turn causes the outrageous pinning and high potency.

I guess that psilocybin has something to do with fruiting/pinning for three reasons. Firstly is the big difference in psilocybin production between the vegetating mycelium versus the fruitbody tissue.

Second reason is that I believe cubes use the draw from evaporation to pull materials up into the fruitbody, similar to the way a plant does. If this is true, it's gonna draw the psilocybin up into the fruitbody. The concentration increases as more and more water passes up through the fruit and evaporates off.

My last reason is simply that psilocybin is only one OH molecule different from seretonin. Humans and animals both use seretonin as a neurotransmitter. So it's not so much a reach to think the mushroom is using it for the same reason; to transmit signals. Nothing complicated, just things like "hurry up and fruit" or "abort! abort!" or "launch the spores".

I'm so far off on a tangent now, but anyway I really enjoyed your post.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Posts: 705
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12705206 - 06/07/10 07:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Because manure(not poo) is free to some so why not




Well I have a job... So I'd rather work for an hour, and buy 15-20 blocks of coir, then spend an hour hunting for shit... lol.






I have extensive flourishing flower beds, a very large kick ass garden & also grow a little "herb".. lol.

I have a LARGE compost pile.
I get 2 or 3 pick up truck loads of h/poo midsummer FREE.
That augments my compost pile & suffices for all my other needs.

It would be impractical to use coir the same way.
Plus, very costly.

Someone in an apartment, without a FREE h/poo hook up should use coir.
It's ideal in situations where h/poo is impractical.

One other thing about h/poo & compost.
Because of the high microbial activity in both.
H/poo & compost contain large amounts of chitin.
Which coir doesn't, because it was never composted.

When all things are optimal.
Easy to assimilate chitin in a substrate, will get you BIG ass fruits.
BIG ass POTENT fruits are what this is all about.


--------------------
CASING = GETTING IT RIGHT


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Offlineabitavenger
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #12705223 - 06/07/10 07:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I figured hey let's go check that thread holy crap I'm glad I did!

Awesome posts anonjon and urban!


--------------------
Karma.


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OfflineChaostoOrder
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12705605 - 06/07/10 08:49 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Heres what they did for me, little over 5 ounce flush!!! Hpoo, 1:4 ratio...I think it couldn't hurt







This was my First attempt with  HPOO...im hooked!!!


--------------------
Too weird to live, to rare to die....-Hunter S. Thompson


:
[url=https://files.shroomery.org/files/10-21/47399604


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: ChaostoOrder]
    #12705640 - 06/07/10 08:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

GOOD SHIT IS KING............:thumbup:
Same here, tried everything.
Once I did h/poo subs, I never looked back.


--------------------
CASING = GETTING IT RIGHT


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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12705824 - 06/07/10 09:24 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Because manure(not poo) is free to some so why not




Well I have a job... So I'd rather work for an hour, and buy 15-20 blocks of coir, then spend an hour hunting for shit... lol.






Because of the high microbial activity in both.
H/poo & compost contain large amounts of chitin.
Which coir doesn't, because it was never composted.

When all things are optimal.
Easy to assimilate chitin in a substrate, will get you BIG ass fruits.
BIG ass POTENT fruits are what this is all about.




Anyway to add chitin into the sub without poo or compost? (lol btw, horse manure would contain something called chitin hehe).

Can I get useful chitin from crushed crab shells? Is Chitosan useful at all?


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12706007 - 06/07/10 09:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Shrimp, lobster, crab shells are impart chitin.
Oven baked dry, ground to a very fine powder in a water slurry in a blender.
Works perfectly & you cannot add to much.

Enjoy a good seafood dinner once or twice a month.
Will get you more free chitin than you will ever need.


--------------------
CASING = GETTING IT RIGHT


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12706232 - 06/07/10 10:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Mycoalchemist, you said you use only hpoo subs now.  Straw mixed in or no?


--------------------
Dirtlamb makes you smart!


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: dirtlambguy]
    #12706993 - 06/08/10 01:25 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)


Well weathered h/poo is almost all fiber.
No need to add straw.

I have a shredder, I do shred a straw bale or 2 into my compost pile.
Trouble with straw is, mother nature designed it to repell moisture.

Unless it is shredded fine, then composted a bit.
To break down the waxy coating on it.
It has very poor moisture holding / retention capacity.

That is why straw subs are usually one flush wonders.
Because that first flush pulls out most of the moisture.
And a colonized straw sub doesnt rehydrate well.


--------------------
CASING = GETTING IT RIGHT


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InvisibleJavadog
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12706997 - 06/08/10 01:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
Above 3% N, it's usually to N hot.
Which can (but not always) impede colonization.
About 2.75 N is the max N substrate content you should shoot for.
Just to stay on the safe side.




Is the idea that a casing layer should be non-nutritive, so that
it will stimulate the mycelia to fruit, coming into play here?

This would support coir's being such a good casing material.

..and the fact the when casing with coir one is getting mushrooms
from the energy of the original spawn fits nicely.

This is a great thread!


--------------------
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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Javadog]
    #12707021 - 06/08/10 01:36 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Coir is not a good casing material.
Myc colonizes it, hence no "casing" qualities.

I only add about 1% coir to a casing cover mix.
(see link in my sig)
To insure myc will climb thruogh it to the surface.


--------------------
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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12713234 - 06/09/10 01:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
Shrimp, lobster, crab shells are impart chitin.
Oven baked dry, ground to a very fine powder in a water slurry in a blender.
Works perfectly & you cannot add to much.

Enjoy a good seafood dinner once or twice a month.
Will get you more free chitin than you will ever need.




Awesome, crab is my favorite food, now I'll have an excuse to buy some haha.

How much should I use? (in a decently sized mono tub)

Like a teaspoon of crab powder? Or less?


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12713633 - 06/09/10 05:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Unless you go crazy, you cannot add to much.
But, any more than a tablespoon of powder to a tub is overkill.


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CASING = GETTING IT RIGHT


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OfflineDreamtime
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12718411 - 06/10/10 12:45 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Great thread indeed!

answered allot of questions for me!

cheers all


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Dreamtime]
    #12718428 - 06/10/10 12:51 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Just made a sub using hpoo and verm.  Wanted to add gypsum, but the weight reference threw me.  I had 32 cups of dry poo, so I added 8 cups verm to make the 20% verm thing happen.  But you said 2 cups gypsum to 25 lbs wet sub.  Do you have a recipe that uses volumes instead of weights?  Thanks


--------------------
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: dirtlambguy]
    #12719605 - 06/10/10 09:16 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

With gypsum you can't do much wrong.
It isn't directly important how much you add. 5% to 10% of gypsum by volume. Not counting the verm.

It can be done quiet easily using your eyes, but if you want to make sure, measure your substrate (as said, without the verm) and add as many jars or whatever it takes to have 5% to 10%.

Quote:

And a good ash content that helps as a buffer... naturally keeping coffee in a great pH range for mushrooms due to its lime content as well. So, coir and coffee together makes sense.





Coffee is slightly acidic and is capable of altering the PH of a substrate to the acidic side.
Since molds favor an acidic environment, but don't germinate well (or at all) in slightly basic environments we rather want it on the basic side. At least when it's not pasteurized.
In combination with the amount of nutrients it provides, it even makes coir substrates prone for contams.
So when you use coffee, the substrate should be pasteurized.
Since this doesn't necessarily has to be done when you spare on the coffee, I prefer it that way.

Interesting thread indeed:thumbup:


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: dirtlambguy]
    #12719680 - 06/10/10 09:33 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Sadly......... I don't.
Reason being, I just "eyeball" sub content.
I mix subs in big bags.


H/poo I use has already been through a shredder.
So it's fluffy fiber & there are no big nuggets in it.

I have been doing this so long, its 2nd nature.
I can tell its good to go by the look & feel of it.
So, I don't follow any set recipe.

I fill a bag about 2/3rds full of h/poo.
Then add Verm & a few additives.
Then, hydrate, then pasturize.

Gypsum is a good thing.
You don't want to add a ton of it.
But, can add a lot.
2 cups to what you made isn't to much or 2 little.
It will mix right in.

Just like a bowl of cornflakes cerial.
Some folks add a lot of milk.
Some folks add very little milk.
Some folks add a lot of sugar.
Some folks add very little sugar.
Some folks add honey, others add raisins, or sliced peaches.

The long & short of it is, just don't go hog wild adding things.
Learn a basic recipe that works for you.
Once you get the "hang" of it, its all easy.

It's hard to F/U a h/poo substrate.
Unless you go crazy addinng things.
Key is once mixed get the moisture content right.


I have a kelway ph / moisture meter.

It will measure moisture content down to a gnats ass.
I seldom use it to measure moisture content of a substrate.
Simply because I can hand squeeze a substrate mix & know when its good to go.
That takes experiance, which takes time to learm.
A gentle firm squeeze & the sub only drips a few drops of water.
It's good to go.

If it doen't drip, add more water.
If it pours out gobs of water.
Squueze some out.

Once you learn to take care of all the little critical things.
The big things fall righ into place, easy as eating apple pie.



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Offlinedirtlambguy
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12719731 - 06/10/10 09:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

So I take it from the pic that you pasteurize in an autoclavable plastic bag or something similar.  I've heard that hpoo needs to be exposed to the hot water during pasteurization to loosen it up.  Not true?


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OfflineFahkface
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: dirtlambguy]
    #12719844 - 06/10/10 10:17 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Not true?




Nope. Not necessarily. When you pasteurize Horse manure in water directly it'll hydrate anyway. When you pasteurize using a pod-in-pod system or bags you need to bring it to field capacity first.


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Fahkface]
    #12719887 - 06/10/10 10:29 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Fahkface is on the money.........:thumbup:
I hydrate to feild capacity IN the bag.
Bag doesn't lose any moisture content when being pasturized.

Once cooled to room temps, bag content is ready to dump in a sanitized tray & get spawned.


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12719931 - 06/10/10 10:43 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Is there anything wrong with the way I pasteurize (in a burlap sack, exposing poo to the hot water)?  Intuitively, I guess that nutrients are lost in the water that I pour out after pasteurizing.  Enough to affect the grow though?


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: dirtlambguy]
    #12719944 - 06/10/10 10:45 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dirtlambguy said:
Is there anything wrong with the way I pasteurize (in a burlap sack, exposing poo to the hot water)?  Intuitively, I guess that nutrients are lost in the water that I pour out after pasteurizing.  Enough to affect the grow though?




I prefer pasteurizing in jars/bag

Like this http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11855283&page=0&vc=1#11855283


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: dirtlambguy]
    #12720182 - 06/10/10 11:39 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I don't pasturize in a burlap bag, pillow case, etc.
Because, when you pull it out of the water, to DRAIN.
All those litte bitty micro/macro nutes in solution go out with the drain water.
I doubt it matters that much.
But, I would rather keep them in the sub, rather than lost down a drain.

On top of that, using a burlap bag, or pillow case is MESSY.
Plus, draining one exposes the sub to a lot of open air.
Which can contaminate the sub.

Plus, hot steaming bags of h/poo hanging around is a GNAT MAGNET.
Little fruit flies can smell that shit for miles.
Then, make a bee line straight for it.

Gnats & fruuit flies are a giant PITA.

Hydrating in a plastic bag & pasturizing in the same bag..........
Minimizes a dripping mess, smell & open air exposure.

LOL, years back using cloth bags pasturizing huge amounts in a 55 G drum of hot water.
Frigging bag was so heavy, I could not lift it out of the drum alone.
Built a tripod & used a chain hoist to pull it out.
Raised the bag up into the air, frigging bottom of bag ripped open.:eek:
SPLAT went a couple hundred lbs of steaming hot shit, like a tidal wave ALL OVER THE PLACE.


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12720358 - 06/10/10 12:22 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Myco in your signature about the casing, is the one part coir hydrated?


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In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists & will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12720384 - 06/10/10 12:31 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
I don't pasturize in a burlap bag, pillow case, etc.
Because, when you pull it out of the water, to DRAIN.
All those litte bitty micro/macro nutes in solution go out with the drain water.
I doubt it matters that much.
But, I would rather keep them in the sub, rather than lost down a drain.

On top of that, using a burlap bag, or pillow case is MESSY.
Plus, draining one exposes the sub to a lot of open air.
Which can contaminate the sub.

Plus, hot steaming bags of h/poo hanging around is a GNAT MAGNET.
Little fruit flies can smell that shit for miles.
Then, make a bee line straight for it.

Gnats & fruuit flies are a giant PITA.

Hydrating in a plastic bag & pasturizing in the same bag..........
Minimizes a dripping mess, smell & open air exposure.

LOL, years back using cloth bags pasturizing huge amounts in a 55 G drum of hot water.
Frigging bag was so heavy, I could not lift it out of the drum alone.
Built a tripod & used a chain hoist to pull it out.
Raised the bag up into the air, frigging bottom of bag ripped open.:eek:
SPLAT went a couple hundred lbs of steaming hot shit, like a tidal wave ALL OVER THE PLACE.



:rofldrunk: Sounds messy.


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Stillmatic9142]
    #12720843 - 06/10/10 02:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Stillmatic9142 said:
Myco in your signature about the casing, is the one part coir hydrated?




Just a handful, HYDRATED.


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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12720880 - 06/10/10 02:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
Quote:

Stillmatic9142 said:
Myco in your signature about the casing, is the one part coir hydrated?




Just a handful, HYDRATED.




Very nice, I can't wait to try it out! I know it isn't necessary, but it won't hurt; only help!


--------------------
In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists & will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together.

-former President & 5 Star General, Dwight D Eisenhower's farewell address to the Nation


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