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Offlineabitavenger
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Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 545
Loc: east coast
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #12704288 - 06/07/10 04:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I've fruited coir/vermiculite spawned with wbs and no casing and had 3 flushes and large potent fruits. How would this be possible if coir has no nutritious content? I know the wbs didn't make for all of those fruits


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Karma.


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InvisibleShea25
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Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 7,772
Loc: Westcoast Canada Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704311 - 06/07/10 04:41 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:
I've fruited coir/vermiculite spawned with wbs and no casing and had 3 flushes and large potent fruits. How would this be possible if coir has no nutritious content? I know the wbs didn't make for all of those fruits




The spawned grains add a Tonne of nutrients, hence why straight cased grains can produce some monsters and pretty decent results


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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704317 - 06/07/10 04:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:I know the wbs didn't make for all of those fruits




Wrong. Millet is one of the most nutritious grains, if not the most.

Try injecting some spores into coir sometime and tell me how it goes for you.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


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Offlineabitavenger
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Registered: 01/15/08
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Loc: east coast
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #12704333 - 06/07/10 04:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

So you guys are saying coir has no nutritional content?
And I've had good results on cased wbs also...

So we use coir for its water retention and that's pretty much it then? (All I know is that's its been working damn good lol)


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InvisibleShea25
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Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 7,772
Loc: Westcoast Canada Flag
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704352 - 06/07/10 04:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:
So you guys are saying coir has no nutritional content?
And I've had good results on cased wbs also...

So we use coir for its water retention and that's pretty much it then? (All I know is that's its been working damn good lol)




Coir is a very good water retainer and has a nice fluffy texture, grains add alot of nutritional value,


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Offlineabitavenger
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Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 545
Loc: east coast
Last seen: 11 years, 11 months
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704372 - 06/07/10 04:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That's what I figured. I've never really got into a coir discussion I'm glad I did thanks guys. I'm also going to use more spawn and see if I see a difference in fruits


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InvisibleShea25
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Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 7,772
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: abitavenger]
    #12704381 - 06/07/10 04:54 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

abitavenger said:
That's what I figured. I've never really got into a coir discussion I'm glad I did thanks guys. I'm also going to use more spawn and see if I see a difference in fruits




I have found it does, I usually spawn 1:2


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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Registered: 02/03/02
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704442 - 06/07/10 05:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Ditto, I like a high spawn ratio as well. And yes, coir does have cellulose and lignin, beneficial to growth, but not nutritional! I feel the best thing about coir is its resistance to contams. The worst thing about coir... ever notice those fungi gnats? I cant remember the name of them, but coir attracts them.

Here is a very nice read about coir and hydroponics... a lot of the principles apply to mycological aspects as well, and it describes that little pest call the Scarid Fly.

Here is a pic of that little bugger...





http://www.texashydroponics.com/shop/product.php?productid=2220

Cited from the link above...

Analysis of Coco Coir Sample S 1978 P 126 K (Potassium) 3700* Na (Sodium) 2022 * Ca 119 Mg 104 Cu Zn 3.2 Mn 3.8 Fe 12.2 B 7 Cl (Chloride) 3498* All figures refer to parts per million (ppm). Above, is an analysis of one batch of hydrated coco coir. It is easy to see that coco coir contains varying levels of micro and macro elements. The most significant elements in the analysis are the high potassium levels and the extremely high sodium and chloride levels (sodium chloride = salt). Potassium competes with magnesium and calcium while sodium competes with potassium for uptake. Furthermore, sodium chloride can be highly toxic to certain species of plants;

So, knowing that analysis, there is a content of potassium, sodium, magnesium, calcium, sodium chloride, etc... which may explain its resistance to contams as well. And Im sure mushrooms utilize some of those macro-elements, as do we in our dietary intake.


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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #12704541 - 06/07/10 05:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The answers in this thread are incredibly contradicting.

-Coir and Hpoo are about equal

...

-Coir has no nutrients

...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?


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InvisibleShea25
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Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 7,772
Loc: Westcoast Canada Flag
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12704578 - 06/07/10 05:32 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
The answers in this thread are incredibly contradicting.

-Coir and Hpoo are about equal

...

-Coir has no nutrients

...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?





People do add coffee grounds to there coir you know


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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704593 - 06/07/10 05:34 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
The answers in this thread are incredibly contradicting.

-Coir and Hpoo are about equal

...

-Coir has no nutrients

...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?





People do add coffee grounds to there coir you know




...Did you even read the op? I'm aware of that. But why in gods name would anyone go into a field to pick up and smell poo, if it can be replaced by coir with coffee....


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InvisibleShea25
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12704604 - 06/07/10 05:37 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Because manure(not poo) is free to some so why not


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OfflineAnonomyDominie
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704787 - 06/07/10 06:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

ive always used coir, and I mix in coffee grounds. I dont use alot of grounds, about enough to make 3 12 cup posts of medium strong coffee (i dont know, its 3 pots the way I like it, if it really matters, lol) in each of the 3 128 quart monotubs I use.

It breaks down like this:

2 blocks coir
4 pint jars of verm
3 runs of coffee grounds

all that and 10 jars of grain per tub, and bingo, its party time :smile:


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
been there ~ done that

Registered: 03/27/10
Posts: 705
Loc: Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12704866 - 06/07/10 06:30 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Above 3% N, it's usually to N hot.
Which can (but not always) impede colonization.
About 2.75 N is the max N substrate content you should shoot for.
Just to stay on the safe side.


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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: Shea25]
    #12704914 - 06/07/10 06:42 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This link here has the chemical analysis of both roasted and unroasted coffee...

http://chestofbooks.com/food/beverages/Tea-Coffee-Cocoa/Coffee-Chemical-Composition.html

And it plainly shows that coffee has a great fat and nitrogen content, varying from raw to roasted. And a good ash content that helps as a buffer... naturally keeping coffee in a great pH range for mushrooms due to its lime content as well. So, coir and coffee together makes sense.

But, your question is as follows, so lets try to answer that...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?


The chemical analysis of horse manure can greatly vary, depending on age, decomposition, and leaching. So, lets base it on what I hear all the time, aged and leached...

After reading this manual on horse manure management, its clear that composted steer manure has reduced parasites, ammonia, salts, etc... which makes it better. Hence, aged manure is best.

According to EnviroHorse who did a study on the run-off of manure, they found that quote "aged horse manure left exposed on the ground for seven days does not contain sufficient nitrogen to be considered as a fertilizer, although it is considered a superior soil amendment.". And when it comes out of the horses ass, quote "The 1% residual nitrogen in the manure is consistent with the amount of nitrogen found in the fibrous residues of grasses on uncultivated ground". In other words, the same nitrogen content as grasses.

Nutritional content of aged/composted steer manure is as follows...

Manure Horse   Steer
N-P-K .70 .30 .60  .70 .30 .40

Sources: Rodale's All-New Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening, An Illustrated Guide to Organic Gardening, by Sunset Publishing, and the Rodale Guide to Composting. Note: Nutrient values of manures vary greatly, depending on the diet and age of the animals, and the nature and quantity of bedding in the mix.

Further reading shows that the way you measure the analysis can greatly vary depending on approach and timing, so it varies depending on age... http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A3769.pdf

Essentially, a common aged manure has the content I described above. And manure beats coir and coffee.

As far as lacing coir with nitrogen, that's like hydroponic mushies, and its been done in 1939 based on this abstract... Growth of fungi in synthetic nutrient solutions. Now, it costs 34 dollars to see that study, so I cannot relay any data from that study. There is a plethora of discussions involving additives on this site that could answer that question for you if you want to pursue an additive method vs. a naturally occurring method.

Large scale growers will compost their own mix of ingredients depending on the needs of the mushroom. From this post HERE, the cubensis nutritional need is as follows...


Mushrooms require:

Carbon (glucose, sucrose, dextrose) ~2%
Nitrogen
Sulfur (10-4M)
Phosphorus (10-3M)
Potassium (10-3M)
Magnesium (10-3M)
Iron (10-6M)
Zinc (10-8M)
Manganese (10-7M)
Copper (10-6 to 10-7M)
Molybdenum (10-9M) (Some mushrooms)

Some mushrooms require Thiamine (vitamin B1) at about 100 ug/L.  Some also require biotin (vitamin B7) at about 5 ug/L.  A few also require B3 and B5.

Many of these elements are required in such small amounts that it's hard to determine the requirement because it's hard to exclude such small amounts from your experiment.

Here are some minimal media formulations in common use...

Mushroom Minimal Medium (MMM)
------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Agar 20.0g


Mushroom Complete Medium (MCM)
-------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g


Yeast Complete Medium (YCM)
----------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 5g
Yeast Extract 5g


Mushroom Complete Mineral Medium (MCMM)
----------------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g
Mineral solution 10cc (4 mg ZnSO4.7H2O, 1mg CuSO4.4H2O, 7 mg MnCl2.4H2O, 10 mg FeSO4.7H2O)


Now, as stated in the original post, there isnt a nitrogen requirement. But, based on this thread that follows, its directly relates with potency as nitrogen is required to make the alkaloid in the first place...  Nitrogen As Key To Potency

In Stamets Mushroom Cultivator book, there is a large section dealing with nitrogen content and compost, manure, additives, etc. Here is a bit of what he says...

Straw provides a compost with carbohydrates, the basic food stuffs of mushroom nutrition. Wheat straw is 36% cellulose, 25% pentosan and 1 6% lignin. Cellulose and pentosan are carbohydrates
which upon break down yield simple sugars. These sugars supply the energy for microbial growth. Lignin, a highly resistant material also found in the heartwood of trees, is changed during composting to a "Nitrogen-rich-lignin-hurnus-complex", a source of protein. In essence, straw is a
material with the structural and chemical properties ideal for making a mushroom compost.


Again, this leads to additives, and he describes them in the book... worth reading to understand the simple yet complex nature of composting and achieving ideal content.

Furthermore, its known that the ratio of carbon to nitrogen is also important. Carbon component is obtained from materials such as straw while the nitrogen comes from manure.

In essence, there is no minimum requirement of nitrogen. But, the better source of nitrogen, carbon, and other essentials discussed in depth in the Nitrogen As Key To Potency thread I listed above will greatly increase potency.

So, the question is... how would you like to grow them, as additives and formulations give you full control on potency... obviously! I think this leads me to a conclusion that the BEST way isnt limited to manure/straw or Coir, since you can apply additives to both and essentially increase potency.


--------------------
Keep it ReaL.


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OfflineUrbanistiC
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Registered: 02/03/02
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Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: myco.alchemist]
    #12704919 - 06/07/10 06:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

myco.alchemist said:
Above 3% N, it's usually to N hot.
Which can (but not always) impede colonization.
About 2.75 N is the max N substrate content you should shoot for.
Just to stay on the safe side.




You better believe it, good point!


--------------------
Keep it ReaL.


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Offlinedoornoblightbulb
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: UrbanistiC]
    #12704940 - 06/07/10 06:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shea25 said:
Because manure(not poo) is free to some so why not




Well I have a job... So I'd rather work for an hour, and buy 15-20 blocks of coir, then spend an hour hunting for shit... lol.

Quote:

UrbanistiC said:
This link here has the chemical analysis of both roasted and unroasted coffee...

http://chestofbooks.com/food/beverages/Tea-Coffee-Cocoa/Coffee-Chemical-Composition.html

And it plainly shows that coffee has a great fat and nitrogen content, varying from raw to roasted. And a good ash content that helps as a buffer... naturally keeping coffee in a great pH range for mushrooms due to its lime content as well. So, coir and coffee together makes sense.

But, your question is as follows, so lets try to answer that...

The how are they even close to equal? Unless of course you are suggesting that Hpoo has no additional nutrients besides Nitrogen.

If thats the case, why don't growers just use a mixture of 20%coir, 80% verm, and lace it with tons of N?


The chemical analysis of horse manure can greatly vary, depending on age, decomposition, and leaching. So, lets base it on what I hear all the time, aged and leached...

After reading this manual on horse manure management, its clear that composted steer manure has reduced parasites, ammonia, salts, etc... which makes it better. Hence, aged manure is best.

According to EnviroHorse who did a study on the run-off of manure, they found that quote "aged horse manure left exposed on the ground for seven days does not contain sufficient nitrogen to be considered as a fertilizer, although it is considered a superior soil amendment.". And when it comes out of the horses ass, quote "The 1% residual nitrogen in the manure is consistent with the amount of nitrogen found in the fibrous residues of grasses on uncultivated ground". In other words, the same nitrogen content as grasses.

Nutritional content of aged/composted steer manure is as follows...

Manure Horse   Steer
N-P-K .70 .30 .60  .70 .30 .40

Sources: Rodale's All-New Encyclopedia of Organic Gardening, An Illustrated Guide to Organic Gardening, by Sunset Publishing, and the Rodale Guide to Composting. Note: Nutrient values of manures vary greatly, depending on the diet and age of the animals, and the nature and quantity of bedding in the mix.

Further reading shows that the way you measure the analysis can greatly vary depending on approach and timing, so it varies depending on age... http://learningstore.uwex.edu/assets/pdfs/A3769.pdf

Essentially, a common aged manure has the content I described above. And manure beats coir and coffee.

As far as lacing coir with nitrogen, that's like hydroponic mushies, and its been done in 1939 based on this abstract... Growth of fungi in synthetic nutrient solutions. Now, it costs 34 dollars to see that study, so I cannot relay any data from that study. There is a plethora of discussions involving additives on this site that could answer that question for you if you want to pursue an additive method vs. a naturally occurring method.

Large scale growers will compost their own mix of ingredients depending on the needs of the mushroom. From this post HERE, the cubensis nutritional need is as follows...


Mushrooms require:

Carbon (glucose, sucrose, dextrose) ~2%
Nitrogen
Sulfur (10-4M)
Phosphorus (10-3M)
Potassium (10-3M)
Magnesium (10-3M)
Iron (10-6M)
Zinc (10-8M)
Manganese (10-7M)
Copper (10-6 to 10-7M)
Molybdenum (10-9M) (Some mushrooms)

Some mushrooms require Thiamine (vitamin B1) at about 100 ug/L.  Some also require biotin (vitamin B7) at about 5 ug/L.  A few also require B3 and B5.

Many of these elements are required in such small amounts that it's hard to determine the requirement because it's hard to exclude such small amounts from your experiment.

Here are some minimal media formulations in common use...

Mushroom Minimal Medium (MMM)
------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Agar 20.0g


Mushroom Complete Medium (MCM)
-------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g


Yeast Complete Medium (YCM)
----------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 5g
Yeast Extract 5g


Mushroom Complete Mineral Medium (MCMM)
----------------------------------------
MgSO4-7H2O 0.5g
KH2PO4 0.46g
K2HPO4 1.0g
Glucose 20.0g
Peptone 2g
Yeast Extract 2g
Mineral solution 10cc (4 mg ZnSO4.7H2O, 1mg CuSO4.4H2O, 7 mg MnCl2.4H2O, 10 mg FeSO4.7H2O)


Now, as stated in the original post, there isnt a nitrogen requirement. But, based on this thread that follows, its directly relates with potency as nitrogen is required to make the alkaloid in the first place...  Nitrogen As Key To Potency

In Stamets Mushroom Cultivator book, there is a large section dealing with nitrogen content and compost, manure, additives, etc. Here is a bit of what he says...

Straw provides a compost with carbohydrates, the basic food stuffs of mushroom nutrition. Wheat straw is 36% cellulose, 25% pentosan and 1 6% lignin. Cellulose and pentosan are carbohydrates
which upon break down yield simple sugars. These sugars supply the energy for microbial growth. Lignin, a highly resistant material also found in the heartwood of trees, is changed during composting to a "Nitrogen-rich-lignin-hurnus-complex", a source of protein. In essence, straw is a
material with the structural and chemical properties ideal for making a mushroom compost.


Again, this leads to additives, and he describes them in the book... worth reading to understand the simple yet complex nature of composting and achieving ideal content.

Furthermore, its known that the ratio of carbon to nitrogen is also important. Carbon component is obtained from materials such as straw while the nitrogen comes from manure.

In essence, there is no minimum requirement of nitrogen. But, the better source of nitrogen, carbon, and other essentials discussed in depth in the Nitrogen As Key To Potency thread I listed above will greatly increase potency.

So, the question is... how would you like to grow them, as additives and formulations give you full control on potency... obviously! I think this leads me to a conclusion that the BEST way isnt limited to manure/straw or Coir, since you can apply additives to both and essentially increase potency.




Interesting. This was quite informative, thanks.


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Invisibleanonjon
Partially Right

Registered: 11/03/08
Posts: 6,322
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12705086 - 06/07/10 07:18 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Another rockin post Urban.

I experimented with using bloodmeal for nitrogen. I did get excellent potency. And it was the same clone strain that I used on straight straw, which turned out to be poorly potent. However there are other possible causes for all of this, so I don't draw any conclusions.

I didnt mix it in good enough and in some places it was kinda smeared across the surface in high concentrations, as I had reached into the bucket; grabbed the last couple handfulls and smeared it on.

In those places, the knotting was quite excessive, causing serious mutation when all these primordia were melding into each other trying to make a proper fruitbody.

My pure speculation is that psilocybin has something to do with the signaling for fruiting. The bloodmeal stimulates the production of psilocybin which in turn causes the outrageous pinning and high potency.

I guess that psilocybin has something to do with fruiting/pinning for three reasons. Firstly is the big difference in psilocybin production between the vegetating mycelium versus the fruitbody tissue.

Second reason is that I believe cubes use the draw from evaporation to pull materials up into the fruitbody, similar to the way a plant does. If this is true, it's gonna draw the psilocybin up into the fruitbody. The concentration increases as more and more water passes up through the fruit and evaporates off.

My last reason is simply that psilocybin is only one OH molecule different from seretonin. Humans and animals both use seretonin as a neurotransmitter. So it's not so much a reach to think the mushroom is using it for the same reason; to transmit signals. Nothing complicated, just things like "hurry up and fruit" or "abort! abort!" or "launch the spores".

I'm so far off on a tangent now, but anyway I really enjoyed your post.


--------------------
The above post is fictional, hypothetical, or downright nonsensical.


:moon:  :moon:  :moon:  :moon:    :moon:


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Invisiblemyco.alchemist
been there ~ done that

Registered: 03/27/10
Posts: 705
Loc: Flag
Trusted Cultivator
Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: doornoblightbulb]
    #12705206 - 06/07/10 07:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

doornoblightbulb said:
Quote:

Shea25 said:
Because manure(not poo) is free to some so why not




Well I have a job... So I'd rather work for an hour, and buy 15-20 blocks of coir, then spend an hour hunting for shit... lol.






I have extensive flourishing flower beds, a very large kick ass garden & also grow a little "herb".. lol.

I have a LARGE compost pile.
I get 2 or 3 pick up truck loads of h/poo midsummer FREE.
That augments my compost pile & suffices for all my other needs.

It would be impractical to use coir the same way.
Plus, very costly.

Someone in an apartment, without a FREE h/poo hook up should use coir.
It's ideal in situations where h/poo is impractical.

One other thing about h/poo & compost.
Because of the high microbial activity in both.
H/poo & compost contain large amounts of chitin.
Which coir doesn't, because it was never composted.

When all things are optimal.
Easy to assimilate chitin in a substrate, will get you BIG ass fruits.
BIG ass POTENT fruits are what this is all about.


--------------------
CASING = GETTING IT RIGHT


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Offlineabitavenger
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Re: How essential is hpoo for top of the line mushrooms? [Re: anonjon]
    #12705223 - 06/07/10 07:40 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I figured hey let's go check that thread holy crap I'm glad I did!

Awesome posts anonjon and urban!


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