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 Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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 Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore?  [Re: starfire_xes]
#12634387 - 05/26/10 08:38 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
starfire_xes said:
It sure looks like these socialist/liberal ideas have done a world of good for Greece, doesn't it?
Amen to that
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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 celestialphallus
Registered: 05/09/10
Posts: 56
Loc: 
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12674528 - 06/02/10 08:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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I believe a three dimensional gauge is necessary in America.
The left right scale is the economic scale. The social scale is up and down. Up is authoritarian and down is libertarian.
So basically it is a cross.
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Shins
Fun guy
Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: celestialphallus]
#12674645 - 06/02/10 08:18 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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liberal used to mean pretty much what libertarian means now, now they are close to opposite. so i guess it depends on how you define those words.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Shins]
#12675079 - 06/02/10 09:25 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shins said:
liberal used to mean pretty much what libertarian means now, now they are close to opposite. so i guess it depends on how you define those words.
I am a Libertarian, and I can tell you it never did, nor does it now have anything to do with the liberal agenda. You obviously don't understand one or the other.
--------------------
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: celestialphallus]
#12675092 - 06/02/10 09:27 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
celestialphallus said:
I believe a three dimensional gauge is necessary in America.
The left right scale is the economic scale. The social scale is up and down. Up is authoritarian and down is libertarian.
So basically it is a cross.
I'll go with that. I'm a right wing libertarian. I'm opposed to government except for what is constutionally allowed.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12677174 - 06/03/10 07:23 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simplicitry said:
Quote:
Shins said:
liberal used to mean pretty much what libertarian means now, now they are close to opposite. so i guess it depends on how you define those words.
I am a Libertarian, and I can tell you it never did, nor does it now have anything to do with the liberal agenda. You obviously don't understand one or the other.
Bullshit. You are the one who doesn't understand. Today's idea of liberalism has just as little to do with the classical definition of it as conservatism has with its classical definition.
Quote:
Classical liberalism is a political ideology that developed in the 19th century in England, Western Europe, and the Americas. It is committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
I would suggest giving this overview a read before you continue to talk out of your ass.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
#12679709 - 06/03/10 04:07 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed. What your article describes, and what has actually existed in history are two very different things
Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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VisionaryFlicker
Querulant
Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 2,456
Loc: Amsterdam 
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: celestialphallus]
#12679755 - 06/03/10 04:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
celestialphallus said:
I believe a three dimensional gauge is necessary in America.
The left right scale is the economic scale. The social scale is up and down. Up is authoritarian and down is libertarian.
So basically it is a cross.
thats um... thats 2 dimensional.
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l'enfer c'est les autres
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12680205 - 06/03/10 06:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simplicitry said:
Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed. What your article describes, and what has actually existed in history are two very different things
Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?
None of what you just said is relevant. What he claimed is correct, despite your assertions otherwise. Liberal then is not the same as liberal now.
I can't really pick a politician of today to match a political ideology that rarely exists today, but if I did, it would have to be someone with a libertarian bent. This is obviously because there is little to no difference between classical liberalism and libertarianism.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12680222 - 06/03/10 06:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed.
While we're at it, I would like to address this. Of course it never existed. It is a set of political philosophies, such as capitalism or communism, and as such, will never truly exist. The ideas of classical liberalism, including personal autonomy and free markets, WERE considered liberalism in the past. Just because you are ignorant of the change of definition doesn't mean it didn't actually change.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
#12680352 - 06/03/10 06:28 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed.
While we're at it, I would like to address this. Of course it never existed. It is a set of political philosophies, such as capitalism or communism, and as such, will never truly exist. The ideas of classical liberalism, including personal autonomy and free markets, WERE considered liberalism in the past. Just because you are ignorant of the change of definition doesn't mean it didn't actually change.
Ok, so when did the change happen? Under wich administration/s? How about you don't speak about things so vaugly, and I'll take what you say a little more serious. If your going to call someone ignorant, you could at least prove it with factual references.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12680874 - 06/03/10 07:57 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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From what I have read in the past, the shift began in the early twentieth century, becoming mainstream with Hobhouse's essay Liberalism. It was widely read, and put forth a different view of liberalism than political theorists and philosophers before him. He was an advocate of government intervention in the economy and much more of a collectivist than those who used the term before him.
The use of "liberal" as a different meaning than it has today goes back several centuries. Just look at the construction of the work. Liberal is formed by the same root as liberty and libertarian, "liber-", which is Latin for "free".
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kake
The answer to1984 is 1776.
Registered: 05/06/99
Posts: 2,782
Loc: The 66th harmonic
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
#12682597 - 06/04/10 01:20 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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I want to say thanks for adding some legitimate information to this thread Redstorm.
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The answer to 1984 is 1776.
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justAkid
Member of myCulture
Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
#12688577 - 06/04/10 10:29 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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That's exactly what I'm saying man.
The right and the left just expand government. Theyre taking over our lives little by little. They always the same. They just keep expanding.
And here we still have retards on this forum right now, complaining about how biased FOX news is. Enough with all the propaganda. It's enough hearing it from FOX and the rest of the news, but then I have little conservative and liberal drones marching around with a megaphone spouting off the same shit I've heard countless times.
Meanwhile we have people on the right and the left so ready to give up their liberties at moments notice. Whenever the media tells them we are in a "crisis" they fall at their knees and let the government give it to them in the ass.
And the right thinks if only the liberals were gone then the world would be perfect. And the left thinks if only the the republicans were gone then the world would be perfect. Even now liberals think that when they have almost complete control of Washington, showing this is war that will always be fought and it will never be won.
Everyone will always focus on that and not ever realize that before the 20th century there were not wars every five or ten years, and we didn't have Great Depressions and we didn't have Great Recessions. We also had a very small federal government. The correlation seems apparent to me.
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Trust thyself.
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justAkid
Member of myCulture
Registered: 11/05/05
Posts: 323
Loc: The Present
Last seen: 13 years, 9 months
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12688630 - 06/04/10 10:39 PM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?
Ron Paul.
Classic Liberalism is libertarianism. "Progressive" aka communists took over under the guise of liberals with the intent to deceive people that they were giving people liberty, when it is the opposite.
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Trust thyself.
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
#12690037 - 06/05/10 06:31 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
justAkid said:
That's exactly what I'm saying man.
The right and the left just expand government. Theyre taking over our lives little by little. They always the same. They just keep expanding.
And here we still have retards on this forum right now, complaining about how biased FOX news is. Enough with all the propaganda. It's enough hearing it from FOX and the rest of the news, but then I have little conservative and liberal drones marching around with a megaphone spouting off the same shit I've heard countless times.
Meanwhile we have people on the right and the left so ready to give up their liberties at moments notice. Whenever the media tells them we are in a "crisis" they fall at their knees and let the government give it to them in the ass.
And the right thinks if only the liberals were gone then the world would be perfect. And the left thinks if only the the republicans were gone then the world would be perfect. Even now liberals think that when they have almost complete control of Washington, showing this is war that will always be fought and it will never be won.
Everyone will always focus on that and not ever realize that before the 20th century there were not wars every five or ten years, and we didn't have Great Depressions and we didn't have Great Recessions. We also had a very small federal government. The correlation seems apparent to me.
I'm a right wing libertarian, and I don't fall to my knees to give the government my rights in a crisis. In spite of your vulgar generalizations, some of us hold our civil liberties above all else.
--------------------
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
#12690041 - 06/05/10 06:32 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
justAkid said:
Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?
Ron Paul.
Classic Liberalism is libertarianism. "Progressive" aka communists took over under the guise of liberals with the intent to deceive people that they were giving people liberty, when it is the opposite.
Ron Paul votes against the liberal agenda all the time. I would like to see what he would say if you told him he was associated with the left.
--------------------
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
|
Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12690047 - 06/05/10 06:35 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.
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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
#12690117 - 06/05/10 07:12 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Simplicitry said:
And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.
Is it difficult for you to understand that the meaning of words may change over time?
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Simplicitry
Just another mushroom lover
Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 1,070
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
#12690216 - 06/05/10 07:56 AM (13 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
Simplicitry said:
And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.
Is it difficult for you to understand that the meaning of words may change over time?
No it's not, but you can't even give me an example of a Democrat that models your "Classic Liberalism". I grow bored of talking about your political ideology that never even existed in reality. Maybe if you could give some example of a democrat who embodies what you claim existed at one point in our history I could take it more seriously.
--------------------
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.
I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."
"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"
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