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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



Registered: 12/30/07
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Loc: Reykjavík
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Brahman
#12660532 - 05/31/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 7 months ago) |
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How does appleorange go about recognizing Brahman?
Void or emptiness could be used interchangeably depending upon on your background.
This is an apparently qualityless space which is able to give rise to all the manifold forms, but these forms themselves are inherently empty of the apparent nature which they seem to possess.
A metaphor would be the smashing of a glass jar, while the glass jar is still intact, it gives the illusion of occupying space and having a nature and form of it's own, but when smashed, we see that it was dependent upon the space which it occupied to give it form and quality. Before the jar was even smashed, this void already constituted its nature but was obscured by the form which occupied it.
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appleorange
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Brahman was the very thing the Heart Sutra was touching upon, i'll quote some of it to give the discussion more clarity:
"Form is not different from emptiness; emptiness is not different from form. Form is indeed emptiness; emptiness is indeed form. Feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness are also like this.
Oh Shariputra, all dharmas have the nature of emptiness. They neither arise nor perish; they are neither impure nor pure; they neither increase nor decrease. Thus, in emptiness there is no form, no feeling, no perception, no mental formations, no consciousness; no eye, no ear, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no form, no sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no objects of mind. No sensory realms or mind-consciousness realm.
There is no ignorance, and no end to ignorance. There is no old age and death, and no end to old age and death. There is no suffering, no arising, no cessation, and no path. There is no wisdom, and no attainment."
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BlueCoyote
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container...
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appleorange
Rainbow Technician



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Quote:
BlueCoyote said: container...
Could you say a little bit more?
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BlueCoyote
Beyond


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Think about that nothing as it is cointained in an empty container. Or a dried out river...
t's about what the container contains, but there would be nothing to contain if there's no container.
So it's not the nothing what is important, but that what can be contained 'with(in) it'.
And a container is only valuable to itself, when it's empty... if it's full, then that what's inside, is that what counts...
Edited by BlueCoyote (05/31/10 01:12 PM)
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appleorange
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Quote:
Think about that nothing as it is cointained in an empty container. Or a dried out river...
t's about what the container contains, but there would be nothing to contain if there's no container.
Saying that it contains everything could also be said that it is everything, correct?
Quote:
And a container is only valuable to itself, when it's empty... if it's full, then that what's inside, is that what counts...
I think you're saying that the forms which manifest out of this are irrelevant, it doesn't affect or alter the content of Brahman itself?
Let me know if we're on the same footing.
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bodhicitta


Registered: 05/13/10
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maybe many make the mistake of thinking of this container as being a pocket for everything, but then they space it out like everything is spaced out. so they think of it as this huge container that the whole cosmos fits into.
but the everything is only spaced out in relation to everything else, like different variables lining up although all of them are at the same place since there is in reality no place, no space. so therefore if everything is nowhere, where is what?
this is how it is smaller than the smallest yet bigger than the biggest. nothing exist and that is all, as infinite potential.
nowhere. so welcome to the center of the universe.
-------------------- if everything is nowhere, where is what?
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appleorange
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yea, I don't see how you can put a label on Brahman, let alone use the analogy of it being like a container.
I see Brahman more as something that is completely without form in the truest sense. All reference points and ideas about it, no matter how far off or somewhat accurate, still appear in its void.
Is there a way for the void to recognize itself though? What mirror could the infinite hold up to recognize itself?
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bodhicitta


Registered: 05/13/10
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if we simplify our lifes it becomes easier to see the reoccuring pattern loops that operate fractalically. the clear pond stirred and rippled by interference patterns repeating and cycling and we see that we are who we are by being where we are, a two way mirror exhange without any ineherent self on either side, so it is not ourself that is mirrored, it is the mirror mirroring and no center anyhow so we are our friends and our friends are us.. we are someone else in the city, we are the mountain we walk on, we are not so anything has trememdous effect. fluidity, no self - only karma.
i think there is a way to lose oneself and i believe meditation to be the way towards a gradual thinning of the self. but as long as there is life we will come back. maybe arahants remain and live out the karma of their bodies afterwards, but never grasp on to new definitions or intentions that lessen or limit infinite potential, so nothing is willed and all remains unmoved. no new karma is created.
love is when ones will is given up. a fall where the self drowns. the self is the will(s) or intention(s). so the will limits potential and free unfoldment is unlimited potential. the will is restriction/narrowing of goal (purpose). will is lead by desire. the will out of itself creates a vacuum, a distance betweens ones core and ones experienced self. when a desire is fullfilled, the will is ideally in harmony with reality, but usually the will is divided so no point in time satisfies the whole of the will. therefore one does not lose oneself in the moment. there is a will for change, if all was according to will, the will would have been accepted, so no will would be. one would be one with lack of intention in opposition to what is. everything is. speculations aside, i don't know.
Edited by bodhicitta (05/31/10 04:36 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Quote:
appleorange said: yea, I don't see how you can put a label on Brahman, let alone use the analogy of it being like a container.
I see Brahman more as something that is completely without form in the truest sense. All reference points and ideas about it, no matter how far off or somewhat accurate, still appear in its void.
Is there a way for the void to recognize itself though? What mirror could the infinite hold up to recognize itself?
It depends on whether you are specifying Nirguna Brahman or Saguna Brahman - God without attributes or God with attributes. Both aspects can be conceived of by the human awareness, and human awareness derives from its Ultimate Source. Both aspects are not therefore, human projections. The Bhagavad Gita recognizes the devotee of Krna as a Bhakti or devotionalist yogi as well as the devotee who is an Impersonalist (but who is "indirectly Krsna conscious"). It would seem that Buddhism inherited only Nirguna Brahman, which is indistinguishable from Sunyata, at least in language.
The Upanishads speak of the Absolute as being "Self-effulgent," and in this metaphor using light, consciousness is the object to which the metaphor points. Knower-Knowing-Known are ONE in this trinity. It is pure identity like the 'I AM' of the Tenach (OT). Creation is debated in Jewish theology, whether it is by necessity of God's creative nature, or is it an act of love by which deity intends to create to share Itself by the appreciation of creation, by the creatures. Of course, the harshness of creation has been perceived differently by certain Gnostics who say that only an inferior deity would create the realm of nature - a Craftsman or Demiurge. Other Gnostics see creation much like certain Indian metaphysicians - as Maya, illusion. Of course, illusion is relative to an eternal being, not to us. Compared to eternity, a granite mountain is as ephemeral as a cloud.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Kickle
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Compared to eternity, a granite mountain is as ephemeral as a cloud.

How does appleorange go about recognizing Brahman?
無
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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c0sm0nautt

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Re: Brahman [Re: Kickle]
#12663418 - 05/31/10 09:09 PM (13 years, 7 months ago) |
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Translation?
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Kickle
Wanderer



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Mu
-------------------- Why shouldn't the truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense. -- Mark Twain
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Chronic7
Registered: 05/08/04
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Quote:
appleorange said: How does appleorange go about recognizing Brahman?
Smash the jar
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Forever White Belt
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One of the most important aspects of my meditation development was recognizing the state of being.
It is probable that I was there several times and was not aware of it. I think the term void or emptiness made more sense to my californian american mind.
From this state of emptiness it was possible to see all things arising from this place. But before I could begin to see anything I had to become aware of the actual or perceived emptiness of this state.
For me it was like turning a corner, you are there in your head with all the chaos and quietness. Then almost like walking gradually I became aware of an opening or a widening of sorts...
at first it is like the emptiness is only so small and contained within. But after a few moments this space seems to be outside of the physical shell as well. Then upon closer examination the place seems to have no definable boundaries. In other words it starts kind of small but as you become more aware it seems to enlarge.
I think it is at this point that all connection or self-bound awareness ceases (it did for me at least).To put it simply I know where I am sitting ,under a tree. But it seems that I might as well be in the middle of the street or over by a close by building. It is very close to impossible (without opening my eyes) to pinpoint my exact location I feel like I am sitting here but I also feel like I am everywhere.
It was within this 'place' that time and space are no longer relative. Now it is outside of my body - but inside my mind - now it is inside of my mind - but outside of my body.
Lets at least say that in this state of awareness nothing matters anymore. All things like cars, career, status,money,women, material things in other words. Even more relationships, physical appearance, Im pretty high and cant think of anything else. All things in the 'real' world , what kids always call 'getting a life' these things lose their meaningfulness.
On the other hand after ending the meditation and coming out of this state to open eyed reality other things like nature (trees, grass, sky) seemed imbued with their own special meaningfulness. Life seems enchanted and exceedingly happy. I felt like superman for quite a while and remember telling a friend of mine I felt like jumping over a building in a single bound or pushing a mountain felt totally possible.
Emotions for me didn't just become only detached but super-enhanced. Not only did things not matter but when I was happy I was REALLY happy. All the suffering seems to lose its power, however when it is time to mourn my body seemed more ready than ever to express itself and let go of all the tears and quickly resolve any unbalance.
At least for me I can say that I have done all this with just 'sitting there' under my bodhi tree haha.
o yea my teachers metaphor was a monkey with his hand stuck trying to get the apple from the glass jar
-------------------- The Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose. J. B. S. Haldane The quest of the absolute leads into the four-dimensional world. Sir Arthur Stanley Eddington
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