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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12623795 - 05/24/10 11:54 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
Quote:

Noteworthy said:
But quite simply there is no 'evidence' or good reason to believe that there is a 'causal' relationship between the energy in the brain and the state of the mind.




Maybe I'm confused here but I thought they did experiments with electrodes and stimulated parts of the brain and it induced memories.  Wouldn't that be a correlation?

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Think about it this way: in physics, energy never dissapears. it just changes.




Is that true?  If you have a long copper wire and run electricity through it, doesn't some of the energy dissipate?  If so, where does it go?

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
For one event to 'cause' some other event, it must be said that there is some traceable connexion between the energy change in the first event and the energy change in the second event.
But this does not apply for the brain. All the energy in the brain stays in the brain. If anything, it interacts causally with the body around the brain. There is no energy loss in the brain (from what we know at the moment) such that brain activity could have a causal relationship with the mind. We cannot even apply energy paradigms to the mind. We can only apply causal mechanisms to established material events. Since the mind is no material thing, it cannot be causally related to material events.




That sounds reasonable.

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
so people who really want to hold onto the idea that there exists nothing but the physical world, need to come up with some resolution. They say that the mind is some sort of 'emergent property' of the brain activity. To show that this is horse trollop, and insulting to the intellect, will someone please use the phrase 'emergent property' in a context other than mind/brain problem?




lol very good.  I am glad you understand.  Horse trollop.  lol




Is correlation causation?

Is dissipation dissapearence?

I don't quite get your last comment but I am asking for someone to give an example for me to use.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #12623804 - 05/24/10 11:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I define mind as a dynamic associativity to sensation
(that includes memory events as equivalent to primary sensation in every way).

it can build up to elaborate layers of overlaid relations and this can all be modeled as electronic interference in the cerebral cortex.
no feature of mind or event occurring within it cannot be attributed to this.
so if asked for proof of residence I give that.




We've been over this before in the Immateriality of the Mind.  Your answer then was emergent properties.  Which, I believe we have both seen is, in Noteworthy's words, "horse trollop."  In my view, as weak an analogy as Paley's Watch.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
the structures of mind - the objects and recollections - the yearnings and resonances - these may seem too grand to fit into our tiny heads, but that is only the incredulity of ignorance.




One could easily say the same about the view that is wedded to materialism, in that case ignorance of philosophy, in particular the realist school.

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this is your spiritual side. fleeting, seemingly untethered to matter, but ultimately dependent upon the cortical substrate.




I don't think anyone here is claiming the mind is not dependent on the brain.  Brain injuries provide ample proof of this.  But the question remains is if the brain is a sufficient condition for the mind.  You didn't provide evidence in the Immateriality of the Mind thread and you haven't provided it now.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12623825 - 05/24/10 11:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:

Is correlation causation?




No.

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
Is dissipation dissapearence?




Yes, but only partially.

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I don't quite get your last comment but I am asking for someone to give an example for me to use.




I don't have one.


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12623868 - 05/25/10 12:09 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

If the mind exists, which I think we can all agree it does, and if it does not occupy "physical space," which I think we can all agree it doesn't, then there is a very straightforward answer to the question "where is the mind."

The mind exists in extradimensional space.
I know this sounds airy-fairy and somewhat like a nonexplanation, but the way I am conceptualizing it, it's a very simple and level-headed mathematical proposition.

Physical matter occupies three dimensions.
I am proposing that though matter exists and acts in three, there are others which matter does not "enter in to," and which define not physical space but mental space.

This is only the barest beginning of an explanation, and I really don't know where to take it from here except to spend a decade with a note pad working out the vector dynamics of consciousness, but I'm curious if the basic idea is intelligible to any of you.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: laserpig]
    #12623878 - 05/25/10 12:11 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
If the mind exists, which I think we can all agree it does, and if it does not occupy "physical space," which I think we can all agree it doesn't, then there is a very straightforward answer to the question "where is the mind."

The mind exists in extradimensional space.
I know this sounds airy-fairy and somewhat like a nonexplanation, but the way I am conceptualizing it, it's a very simple and level-headed mathematical proposition.

Physical matter occupies three dimensions.
I am proposing that though matter exists and acts in three, there are others which matter does not "enter in to," and which define not physical space but mental space.

This is only the barest beginning of an explanation, and I really don't know where to take it from here except to spend a decade with a note pad working out the vector dynamics of consciousness, but I'm curious if the basic idea is intelligible to any of you.




Yes, it sounds airy fairy, but that doesn't automatically discount the hypothesis from being inspected.  On its face, I like it.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: laserpig]
    #12623887 - 05/25/10 12:13 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

So essentially, since the mind is a tool that can associate things with places, a thing that has no place is still placed in 'the place that is nowhere'


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12623893 - 05/25/10 12:15 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

It seems to me to be the only "explanation" of mind that even remotely begins to explain anything.

All others (that I've heard) are either unintelligible, obviously flawed, or merely a shuffling of definitions.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: laserpig]
    #12623904 - 05/25/10 12:17 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I think it is best to not ask 'where is the mind'. However I ask it myself in rhetorical response to physicalists who try to tell me that the mind emerges from spatially distinct physical processes


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12623926 - 05/25/10 12:21 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

This ties directly to the discussion in my subjective experience thread.

Computation and decision making can absolutely be tied to discrete locations in the physical structure of the brain, but this has no obvious bearing on the phenomenon of subjective experience IE "mind."

We know where the brain accomplishes various tasks, but that tells us nothing about why those tasks are experienced as emotions, thoughts, etc.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: laserpig]
    #12623956 - 05/25/10 12:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
It seems to me to be the only "explanation" of mind that even remotely begins to explain anything.

All others (that I've heard) are either unintelligible, obviously flawed, or merely a shuffling of definitions.




I haven't thought it through, and I am dying to read your subjectivity thread, but on its face it sounds brilliant.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12623959 - 05/25/10 12:28 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Noteworthy said:
I think it is best to not ask 'where is the mind'. However I ask it myself in rhetorical response to physicalists who try to tell me that the mind emerges from spatially distinct physical processes





You dissin' me man?

I just thought this thread would be interesting.  I wasn't looking for a precise location, obviously.


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: laserpig]
    #12623970 - 05/25/10 12:31 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I am glad that free will has not been brought into the discussion but it inevitably must. People only rejected free will when Determinism was proposed. Yet hard determinism does not seem necessary in today's day and age. Nevertheless it is still considered default to assume determinism. If you get rid of determinism, the whole thing becomes simple. The brain creates a reality which provides a 'will' with something to act upon. It provides discrete options to a 'will' (without a limitation on options, a will would never make a choice because its options would be infinite) and these options are determined by the physical computations occuring. Over time, the brain's system of permanence (reproduction) leads to changes due to evolution. So over time the will is presented with ever changing options relevant to its body's time and place in space.

:juggle:
Now just forget I made this post


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Noteworthy]
    #12625031 - 05/25/10 09:26 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Time and space are constructs of the mind used to organize sensory information.  The mind itself therefore cannot be spatiotemporal and OP's question is linguistically meaningless.  God, hasn't anyone here ever read Kant?


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Offlinelaserpig
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: deCypher]
    #12625291 - 05/25/10 10:36 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like bullshit to me.
Clearly, the sense data we receive/perceive is ordered, or else there would be no meaning to extract from it.
And I don't mean "deeper meaning," I mean the differences between colors or between up and down would be meaningless if they were not related to concrete attributes of that which our senses relay to us.

If all order such as time and space were constructs imposed by ourselves on unorganized sense data, then one construct would be just as good as another.
The fact that our constructs of time and space A: are so widespread and B: allow so much fruitful interaction with the world around us, to me, seems to indicate that these constructs bear a fairly close resemblance to the original order of that which we are perceiving.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: deCypher]
    #12625839 - 05/25/10 12:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Cypher said:
The mind itself therefore cannot be spatiotemporal and OP's question is linguistically meaningless.  God, hasn't anyone here ever read Kant?




lasperpig did a fine job on the first sentence.  I'll comment on the other two.

1.  I knew what you meant the first time when you said the question was meaningless.  Meaningless in the sense of linguistically meaningless.  (nice spelling btw)  Nevertheless, I disagree.  I don't see why it's so difficult to conceive of a location for an immaterial entity.

I've read Kant.  I found him linguistically silly.


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OfflineFreedom
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12625947 - 05/25/10 01:15 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

This whole conversation seems meaningless to me.

Sure, mind could be an emergent property. Sure, the mind could exist on some metaphysical plane (which I think is the standard term used for non-spacetime dimensions). Sure, the mind could be a partial differentiation of god, or anything I may Imagine.

I could imagine anything I want, and use this fantasy as the grounds for building up ideas, and then talk about these imaginary second order ideas and all of it seems to be avoiding a very basic question, what evidence is there at all for this fantasy?

The only evidence which has been presented is that humans have abstract concepts, and it has not been explained how these abstract concepts cannot be created of and by the material world.

Personally I think it would be revolutionary if one could really prove that abstract concepts cannot be created of and by the material world. It would blow not only my mind, but the minds of philosophers around the globe.

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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Freedom]
    #12625985 - 05/25/10 01:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The evidence that concepts cannot by creating by material means has been presented in this forum.  It's not new knowledge, it's as old as Aristotle.  Nowadays people credit science as the end all and be all of knowledge because we have satellite TV and toaster ovens.  Pretty sad if you ask me.

The mind is not an emergent property of anything unless you have an ideology to defend.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: laserpig]
    #12625986 - 05/25/10 01:21 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

laserpig said:
Clearly, the sense data we receive/perceive is ordered, or else there would be no meaning to extract from it.




How does that follow?

Quote:

laserpig said:
And I don't mean "deeper meaning," I mean the differences between colors or between up and down would be meaningless if they were not related to concrete attributes of that which our senses relay to us.




We can never get at the "that" which our senses relay to us because we are trapped in perception.  There is no space without our visual cortex giving us the impression of space.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #12625995 - 05/25/10 01:23 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Mr. Mushrooms said:
I don't see why it's so difficult to conceive of a location for an immaterial entity.




My mind is located at space/time coordinates XX.XX.XXXX.  Problem solved.  :rolleyes:

Why did you find Kant to be "linguistically silly", by the way?  I vehemently disagree with his thoughts on morality but I like his differentiation between the noumena and phenomena.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: Where is the mind? [Re: deCypher]
    #12626010 - 05/25/10 01:26 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

:razz:


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