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Invisiblekake
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Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore?
    #12573222 - 05/16/10 03:43 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I've long thought Left vs. Right (Liberal vs. Conservative) was the wrong way to look at government policy and ideology in the 21st century.

Can anyone explain to me why Left vs. Right is the lowest common denominator?  It seems to me that big vs. small government matters a whole lot less than the policies of that government... almost to the point where big vs. small doesn't even matter.


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


Edited by kake (05/16/10 03:59 PM)


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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Is Left vs. Right even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12573254 - 05/16/10 03:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

On nearly any topic debated, coalitions form and after a time of compromise two camps emerge.  I think is this a ubiquitous dynamic of society.


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Is Left vs. Right even appropriate anymore? [Re: DieCommie]
    #12573320 - 05/16/10 03:59 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I changed the topic to "Liberal vs. Conservative"


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The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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Offlinetxhc4life
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Re: Is Left vs. Right even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12573397 - 05/16/10 04:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

In my opinion it is the wrong way to look at it. Any size of government always leads to more government. America had a limited government, limited to the constitution.

As soon as you give the state a monopoly over laws no one can stop the growth of government.  When the checks and bounds of the government is controlled by a state monopoly, they become a tool for the state to gain more power. That's how we get to the point where government controls marijuana and other drugs through the interstate commerce clause in the constitution, even if their is no proof of interstate commerce. The ruling class will always find an interpretation that fits their agenda, they call it a living constitution using the supreme court to back up their agenda. Then there is no one to challenge the monopoly of the supreme court because the supreme court is the final ruling.

So my question is, should we have big vs. small government, or none whatsoever?


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12574569 - 05/16/10 07:41 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kake said:
I've long thought Left vs. Right (Liberal vs. Conservative) was the wrong way to look at government policy and ideology in the 21st century.

Can anyone explain to me why Left vs. Right is the lowest common denominator?  It seems to me that big vs. small government matters a whole lot less than the policies of that government... almost to the point where big vs. small doesn't even matter.




Big vs. Small Government may not matter to you, but that's probably cause your a lefty. It matters to me, and a great number of other people.

In the most simple since a bigger government cost more money to operate, but that's only the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the problems with Big Government


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12574892 - 05/16/10 08:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

you're saying a lot but not really saying anything


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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Invisiblec0sm0nautt
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake] * 1
    #12575046 - 05/16/10 09:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The false dichotomy has always been a method of control.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum."
— Noam Chomsky


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Invisiblekake
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12576433 - 05/17/10 01:25 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That's my suspicion as well.  But in this case, I'm having trouble pinpointing who perpetuates this cycle... or who even benefits from it.


--------------------
The answer to 1984 is 1776.


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OfflineNoxNoctum
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12578746 - 05/17/10 02:46 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Seems to me both parties don't mind big government when they're the ones in power... it's only when they're out that it starts being a problem :laugh:

Personally I'd rather have big government in the form of universal health care like the rest of the industrialized world, rather than the patriot act and massive wars in the middle east, but that's just me.


Edited by NoxNoctum (05/17/10 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: NoxNoctum]
    #12581566 - 05/17/10 10:11 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

NoxNoctum said:
Seems to me both parties don't mind big government when they're the ones in power... it's only when they're out that it starts being a problem :laugh:

Personally I'd rather have big government in the form of universal health care like the rest of the industrialized world, rather than the patriot act and massive wars in the middle east, but that's just me.





Some of us are against all big government. From the patriot act to the healthcare mess the mindless leftist masses cramed down our throat. What universal healthcare? Do you really think that's what we got?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinedshow
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12581950 - 05/17/10 11:14 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

About the topic. I would say conservative vs liberal is very appropriate. In fact i would say it is the better way to label whats going on in our politics. Republican versus democrat in my opinion is the wrong way to label it. Maybe years ago it was, but not anymore.. slowly..

Why change something that is great? We are different from all other countries. We have a great system going on. We are the land of the mostly free people compared to many other countries. The land of opportunities. Yet people want to change this why? well the majority dont really. Its the media that portrays change as a good thing. All this media  changes the mindless, and there are many of those people. All the kids are growing up to think liberal=good. This is how our country will no longer be as great. In 20 years this country will be like europe is today. No will, i need the government to change my diaper, and no one will give a shit anyways to do anything about it. brainwash.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: c0sm0nautt]
    #12583154 - 05/18/10 02:45 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c0sm0nautt said:
The false dichotomy has always been a method of control.

"The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum."
— Noam Chomsky




We need synthesis to go along with thesis and antithesis.  Political duality is for wankers.


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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.


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Offlinejshaman
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: deCypher]
    #12621737 - 05/24/10 08:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I think the whole conservative/liberal debate is a dead horse.  Neither stick to the original values the parties were based on.

Eg. Conseravatism/Republicans originally stood for small government. Now it's small on the domestic front (ie social programs) but huge in international affairs.  As far as social issues go, conservatists seem to want to control/impose their morality of the country, which imho is big government at its worst.

Liberals/Democrats. originally based their ideology around larger government, more social programs, etc. Which is great for those who need it (wasnt taxation without representation a big issue back in the day?) The Left does tend to stick to their orignal philosophy more as far as expanding social programs, and leveling the distribution of wealth, BUT these guys seem to be more concerned with keeping the government out of peoples private lives (eg. pro choice, gay rights etc.) than conservatists. Which, imho, is small government at its best.  Seems like the wires are crossed somewhere.  Also, i think these guys wimp out far to often by trying ride both sides of the fence and play the "middle" ground, for the sake of votes. Most are afraid of being to radical. 

(edited and transplanted this post from another thread)


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"Oh and technically speaking I didn't find the bluing pluteus... My mom did! We were out for a walk and she was like "Ooooh loookie!". I was like, "shit...". She also found weilii without realizing it. I'd say the mushrooms want to have a word with her!"


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OfflineGrizzly Adams
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: jshaman]
    #12621853 - 05/24/10 08:49 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Government does not work "Left vs. Right" if anyone tells you otherwise they are ignorant to true political philosophy.

left vs. right is a distraction from government vs. people.


governments roll should ONLY be looked at as a matter of maximizing freedom and prosperity.

YOU have natural rights that no one has vested in you, no document not even the constitution can declare natural rights... these things you are born with... Liberty revolves around the bases of property and property rights.

if you have a right to property, you have a right to your earnings. If you have the right to your earnings which are your property, well hell, shouldn't you have the right to decide what you do with your earnings?!

government is a trick... it isn't even necessary for a normal healthy society. But, it can be used in a useful way. However, when the government starts getting involved in social programs and handouts then it has already defeated its whole purpose in the first place... TO PROTECT YOUR LIBERTY!

Because government does not have anything to give in the first place. They must take it from someone else to give to you! this is grand theft on a massive scale!

NOW THEY OWN A RIGHT TO YOUR LIFE, YOUR LIBERTY, AND YOUR PROSPERITY!


Edited by Grizzly Adams (05/24/10 08:52 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Grizzly Adams]
    #12621897 - 05/24/10 08:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I certainly don't own the property I paid for. The govt can take it at any time they deem appropriate.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Offlinesuburbanned
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12629302 - 05/26/10 12:45 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

kake said:
I've long thought Left vs. Right (Liberal vs. Conservative) was the wrong way to look at government policy and ideology in the 21st century.

Can anyone explain to me why Left vs. Right is the lowest common denominator?  It seems to me that big vs. small government matters a whole lot less than the policies of that government... almost to the point where big vs. small doesn't even matter.




Big vs. Small Government may not matter to you, but that's probably cause your a lefty. It matters to me, and a great number of other people.

In the most simple since a bigger government cost more money to operate, but that's only the tip of the iceburg when it comes to the problems with Big Government




We certainly aren't supposed take anybody seriously who has an icon who has Obama's campaign symbol mixed with the Soviet hammer, are we?

Obviously, "Big Government" is dangerous.  Extremely dangerous.  But at the same time, small government doesn't really work.  Chaos ensues when there is no control.  I hate to say it, but if  there wasn't a "Big Government" (as you call it, with the capitol letters and everything), our country would be in ruins.  There are already people starving to death in our country.  There are already people dying of easily cured diseases.  There are already people running around addicted to drugs, robbing, murdering people to get money for more drugs.  If there wasn't a centralized, "Big Government," these problems would run even more rampant.

Capitalism only works when true capitalistic policies are in play.  Socialism only works when true socialist policies are in play.  We are stuck in the middle.  At this point, trying to shift towards a truly capitalistic nation would be deadly.  Look at the deregulation of the banks.  Look what the banks did to our country in return.  We give them all these freedoms that they didn't use to have, and they absolutely destroyed our economy.  Greed is a powerful thing, and in a true capitalistic setting, greed takes over.  Right now, socialist polices such as health care, nationalization of large companies, are what are needed for the country to survive.

I know... you definitely won't agree with this.  But we're still a representative democracy.  We aren't any closer to being "taken over" by "Big Government" than we were 50 years ago, or 100 years ago.  When people feel endangered by the "Big Government" they will vote against it.  Our elections are pretty much split over recent years, with about 45% of the popular vote versus 55% of the popular vote as about the max difference between the two major parties.  "Big Government" is being voted for by the PEOPLE, and if you don't like it, you can leave, you do still have that freedom (although, if "Big Government" keeps gaining power, you may not have that freedom in the future :rolleyes:)


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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: suburbanned]
    #12629767 - 05/26/10 02:21 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Liberal = advocate change
Conservative = advocate status quo

how is that not relevant?

this should be republican vs. democrat

and is a product of SMD system, according to Duverger's law


--------------------


Edited by learningtofly (05/26/10 02:21 AM)


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: suburbanned]
    #12633654 - 05/26/10 08:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
We certainly aren't supposed take anybody seriously who has an icon who has Obama's campaign symbol mixed with the Soviet hammer, are we?





This is certainly hilarious! You ridicule me for putting the Soviet Sickle and Hammer on the American Leftists banner, and then below you go on to praise very communists ideas such as nationalization!:laugh2:

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
Obviously, "Big Government" is dangerous.  Extremely dangerous.  But at the same time, small government doesn't really work.  Chaos ensues when there is no control.  I hate to say it, but if  there wasn't a "Big Government" (as you call it, with the capitol letters and everything), our country would be in ruins.  There are already people starving to death in our country.




To anyone so stupid to starve to death in the land of opportunity I say good riddance. They certainly wouldn't have survived as long in less prosperous parts of the world. I'm just happy they won't be producing anymore useless humans and polluting our gene pool any further.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
here are already people running around addicted to drugs, robbing, murdering people to get money for more drugs.  If there wasn't a centralized, "Big Government," these problems would run even more rampant.




Oh those poor murdering drug addicts, your right those people deserve to be taken care of. Just for the record public housing like Cabrini Green, or the Robert Taylor Homes(Using my hometown of Chicago as the example) are some of the most violent places in the Chicago. Yet when you go to Chicago neighborhoods were people aren't collecting any social services crime is almost non existent. So, if anything there is a connection between violent crime and people living off the system. Not a connection between crime, and people supporting themselves in free markets.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
Capitalism only works when true capitalistic policies are in play.  Socialism only works when true socialist policies are in play.  We are stuck in the middle.




Where are true socialist policies working toward prosperity in your world? I certainly don't see it in mine.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
At this point, trying to shift towards a truly capitalistic nation would be deadly.  Look at the deregulation of the banks.  Look what the banks did to our country in return.  We give them all these freedoms that they didn't use to have, and they absolutely destroyed our economy.  Greed is a powerful thing, and in a true capitalistic setting, greed takes over.  Right now, socialist polices such as health care, nationalization of large companies, are what are needed for the country to survive.




And your dear leader Obama bailed them out with the lower classes tax dollars instead of allowing failed enterprises to fail.

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
I know... you definitely won't agree with this.  But we're still a representative democracy.  We aren't any closer to being "taken over" by "Big Government" than we were 50 years ago, or 100 years ago.  When people feel endangered by the "Big Government" they will vote against it.  Our elections are pretty much split over recent years, with about 45% of the popular vote versus 55% of the popular vote as about the max difference between the two major parties.  "Big Government" is being voted for by the PEOPLE, and if you don't like it, you can leave, you do still have that freedom (although, if "Big Government" keeps gaining power, you may not have that freedom in the future :rolleyes:)




It's funny you started off your post by saying that big Government is dangerous, and here you are saying all kind of great things about it, and how much we need it. Make up your mind.

I will resort to violence before I leave my country. We will just have to see if the American public has had enough of a wake up call this November. You don't seem to realize that productive people like myself who actually pay into the system instead of leaching off of it are getting fed up. I've already started getting rid of all my liquid assets, so for one the government won't be able to track them and tax them anymore, and second so that when inflation ruins our dollar I am going to have things that actually matter; my land, my guns, ammunition, food, and fuel. I am dead set determined to see socialist America bankrupt. I would rather that then to see the leftist succeed at there dream of a welfare state. Obama has succeeded in changing at least one person(me) from a hard working tax paying citizen to someone who will stop at nothing to see his evil plans for America fail.

People who live off the system make me sick. It's like their content off of eating the table scraps of a prosperous country. They are willing to prostitute themselves to corrupt politicians rather then make something better for themselves. Sucking they their daily nourishment out of Uncle Sames dick, and ass rather then actually take care of themselves. It makes me sick.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinestarfire_xes
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12634358 - 05/26/10 10:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

It sure looks like these socialist/liberal ideas have done a world of good for Greece, doesn't it?


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: suburbanned]
    #12634385 - 05/26/10 10:37 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

suburbantoker said:
Right now, socialist polices such as health care, nationalization of large companies, are what are needed for the country to survive.




Nationalization is always a power grab by very corrupt, very rich poloticians under the guise of helping poor people


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: starfire_xes]
    #12634387 - 05/26/10 10:38 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

starfire_xes said:
It sure looks like these socialist/liberal ideas have done a world of good for Greece, doesn't it?



Amen to that


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12674528 - 06/02/10 10:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I believe a three dimensional gauge is necessary in America.

The left right scale is the economic scale. The social scale is up and down. Up is authoritarian and down is libertarian.

So basically it is a cross.


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InvisibleShins
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: celestialphallus]
    #12674645 - 06/02/10 10:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

liberal used to mean pretty much what libertarian means now, now they are close to opposite.  so i guess it depends on how you define those words.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Shins]
    #12675079 - 06/02/10 11:25 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
liberal used to mean pretty much what libertarian means now, now they are close to opposite.  so i guess it depends on how you define those words.



I am a Libertarian, and I can tell you it never did, nor does it now have anything to do with the liberal agenda. You obviously don't understand one or the other.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: celestialphallus]
    #12675092 - 06/02/10 11:27 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

celestialphallus said:
I believe a three dimensional gauge is necessary in America.

The left right scale is the economic scale. The social scale is up and down. Up is authoritarian and down is libertarian.

So basically it is a cross.



I'll go with that. I'm a right wing libertarian. I'm opposed to government except for what is constutionally allowed.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12677174 - 06/03/10 09:23 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Quote:

Shins said:
liberal used to mean pretty much what libertarian means now, now they are close to opposite.  so i guess it depends on how you define those words.



I am a Libertarian, and I can tell you it never did, nor does it now have anything to do with the liberal agenda. You obviously don't understand one or the other.




Bullshit. You are the one who doesn't understand. Today's idea of liberalism has just as little to do with the classical definition of it as conservatism has with its classical definition.

Quote:

Classical liberalism is a political ideology that developed in the 19th century in England, Western Europe, and the Americas. It is committed to the ideal of limited government and liberty of individuals including freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and free markets.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism

I would suggest giving this overview a read before you continue to talk out of your ass.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12679709 - 06/03/10 06:07 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed. What your article describes, and what has actually existed in history are two very different things

Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: celestialphallus]
    #12679755 - 06/03/10 06:21 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

celestialphallus said:
I believe a three dimensional gauge is necessary in America.

The left right scale is the economic scale. The social scale is up and down. Up is authoritarian and down is libertarian.

So basically it is a cross.



thats um... thats 2 dimensional.


--------------------
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12680205 - 06/03/10 08:02 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed. What your article describes, and what has actually existed in history are two very different things

Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?




None of what you just said is relevant. What he claimed is correct, despite your assertions otherwise. Liberal then is not the same as liberal now.

I can't really pick a politician of today to match a political ideology that rarely exists today, but if I did, it would have to be someone with a libertarian bent. This is obviously because there is little to no difference between classical liberalism and libertarianism.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12680222 - 06/03/10 08:05 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed.




While we're at it, I would like to address this. Of course it never existed. It is a set of political philosophies, such as capitalism or communism, and as such, will never truly exist. The ideas of classical liberalism, including personal autonomy and free markets, WERE considered liberalism in the past. Just because you are ignorant of the change of definition doesn't mean it didn't actually change.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12680352 - 06/03/10 08:28 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Your link describes what you would call classic liberalism. It's just like textbook socialism, it's never existed.




While we're at it, I would like to address this. Of course it never existed. It is a set of political philosophies, such as capitalism or communism, and as such, will never truly exist. The ideas of classical liberalism, including personal autonomy and free markets, WERE considered liberalism in the past. Just because you are ignorant of the change of definition doesn't mean it didn't actually change.



Ok, so when did the change happen? Under wich administration/s? How about you don't speak about things so vaugly, and I'll take what you say a little more serious. If your going to call someone ignorant, you could at least prove it with factual references.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12680874 - 06/03/10 09:57 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

From what I have read in the past, the shift began in the early twentieth century, becoming mainstream with Hobhouse's essay Liberalism. It was widely read, and put forth a different view of liberalism than political theorists and philosophers before him. He was an advocate of government intervention in the economy and much more of a collectivist than those who used the term before him.

The use of "liberal" as a different meaning than it has today goes back several centuries. Just look at the construction of the work. Liberal is formed by the same root as liberty and libertarian, "liber-", which is Latin for "free".


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12682597 - 06/04/10 03:20 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I want to say thanks for adding some legitimate information to this thread Redstorm.


--------------------
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: kake]
    #12688577 - 06/05/10 12:29 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

That's exactly what I'm saying man.

The right and the left just expand government.  Theyre taking over our lives little by little.  They always the same. They just keep expanding.

And here we still have retards on this forum right now, complaining about how biased FOX news is.  Enough with all the propaganda.  It's enough hearing it from FOX and the rest of the news, but then I have little conservative and liberal drones marching around with a megaphone spouting off the same shit I've heard countless times.

Meanwhile we have people on the right and the left so ready to give up their liberties at moments notice.  Whenever the media tells them we are in a "crisis" they fall at their knees and let the government give it to them in the ass.

And the right thinks if only the liberals were gone then the world would be perfect. And the left thinks if only the the republicans were gone then the world would be perfect.  Even now liberals think that when they have almost complete control of Washington, showing this is war that will always be fought and it will never be won. 

Everyone will always focus on that and not ever realize that before the 20th century there were not wars every five or ten years, and we didn't have Great Depressions and we didn't have Great Recessions.  We also had a very small federal government.  The correlation seems apparent to me.


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12688630 - 06/05/10 12:39 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?

Ron Paul.

Classic Liberalism is libertarianism.  "Progressive" aka communists took over under the guise of liberals with the intent to deceive people that they were giving people liberty, when it is the opposite.


--------------------
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12690037 - 06/05/10 08:31 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
That's exactly what I'm saying man.

The right and the left just expand government.  Theyre taking over our lives little by little.  They always the same. They just keep expanding.

And here we still have retards on this forum right now, complaining about how biased FOX news is.  Enough with all the propaganda.  It's enough hearing it from FOX and the rest of the news, but then I have little conservative and liberal drones marching around with a megaphone spouting off the same shit I've heard countless times.

Meanwhile we have people on the right and the left so ready to give up their liberties at moments notice.  Whenever the media tells them we are in a "crisis" they fall at their knees and let the government give it to them in the ass.

And the right thinks if only the liberals were gone then the world would be perfect. And the left thinks if only the the republicans were gone then the world would be perfect.  Even now liberals think that when they have almost complete control of Washington, showing this is war that will always be fought and it will never be won. 

Everyone will always focus on that and not ever realize that before the 20th century there were not wars every five or ten years, and we didn't have Great Depressions and we didn't have Great Recessions.  We also had a very small federal government.  The correlation seems apparent to me.



I'm a right wing libertarian, and I don't fall to my knees to give the government my rights in a crisis. In spite of your vulgar generalizations, some of us hold our civil liberties above all else.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12690041 - 06/05/10 08:32 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Here is a fun little exersice, can you name a polotician who's voting record refelcts the classic liberalism your describing?

Ron Paul.

Classic Liberalism is libertarianism.  "Progressive" aka communists took over under the guise of liberals with the intent to deceive people that they were giving people liberty, when it is the opposite.



Ron Paul votes against the liberal agenda all the time. I would like to see what he would say if you told him he was associated with the left.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12690047 - 06/05/10 08:35 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12690117 - 06/05/10 09:12 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:
And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.




Is it difficult for you to understand that the meaning of words may change over time?


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12690216 - 06/05/10 09:56 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:

Simplicitry said:
And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.




Is it difficult for you to understand that the meaning of words may change over time?



No it's not, but you can't even give me an example of a Democrat that models your "Classic Liberalism". I grow bored of talking about your political ideology that never even existed in reality. Maybe if you could give some example of a democrat who embodies what you claim existed at one point in our history I could take it more seriously.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12692437 - 06/05/10 06:00 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

What point would giving you an example of a present-day politician who espouses classical liberalism have whatsoever? It bears no relevance to the points that have been made so far.

What you said was:

Quote:

I am a Libertarian, and I can tell you it never did, nor does it now have anything to do with the liberal agenda




This is clearly incorrect, as I have shown. What 'liberal' means today has nothing to do with the fact that libertarianism is pretty much a carbon copy of classical liberalism.

Quote:

that never even existed in reality




Are you this dense? No true political or economic belief, whether communism, democracy, or capitalism; has truly existed in reality. All of these beliefs are merely ideas which are used to change the state of affairs at a given point in time. They are IDEAS.

If you think the idea of classical liberalism itself is made up, then you are clearly deluded. What political philosophers do you think inspired the creation of the United States? Hint: it's a political philosophy you say never existed in reality.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12692628 - 06/05/10 06:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't ask you for a present day example. I asked for an example. I can give you exammples of politicians who reflect my right wing belief system from the past, and from today. You can't because that bullshit you posted has nothing to do with liberals


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Edited by Simplicitry (06/05/10 06:41 PM)


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Redstorm]
    #12692683 - 06/05/10 06:41 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I don't care, talking to you further is pointless. We all know what current day liberals stand for wich is much more relevant to the original thread anyways. You can act like I'm thick, and I don't know what I'm talking about, but you made a statement, and the only thing you've been able to back it with is a wikipedia article. If your arguement was stronger you'd be able to back with some facts about Democrats from the past, their voting records, what types of legislations they sponsered, and how this represents a change in the term liberal over the years. But you can't because the only thing you know is you read a wikipedia artle describing liberalism in a more right wing light.

And at the end of it all, it really doesn't matter because at least back to FDR Democrats have been anything but what was described in your article


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12692891 - 06/05/10 07:17 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Classical liberal thinkers;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

Quote:

John Locke (pronounced /ˈlɒk/; 29 August 1632 – 28 October 1704), widely known as the Father of Liberalism,[2][3][4]  was an English philosopher and physician  regarded as one of the most influential of Enlightenment thinkers. Considered the first of the British empiricists, he is equally important to social contract theory. His work had a great impact upon the development of epistemology and political philosophy. His writings influenced Voltaire and Rousseau, many Scottish Enlightenment thinkers, as well as the American revolutionaries. His contributions to classical republicanism and liberal theory are reflected in the American Declaration of Independence.[5]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

Quote:

Adam Smith (baptised 16 June 1723 – 17 July 1790 [OS: 5 June 1723 – 17 July 1790]) was a Scottish  moral philosopher and a pioneer of political economics. One of the key figures of the Scottish Enlightenment, Smith is the author of The Theory of Moral Sentiments  and An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. The latter, usually abbreviated as The Wealth of Nations, is considered his magnum opus and the first modern work of economics. Smith is widely cited as the father of modern economics.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill

Quote:

John Stuart Mill (20 May 1806 – 8 May 1873) was a British philosopher and civil servant. An influential contributor to social theory, political theory, and political economy, his conception of liberty justified the freedom of the individual in opposition to unlimited state control.[2]  He was a proponent of utilitarianism, an ethical theory developed by Jeremy Bentham, although his conception of it was very different from Bentham's. Hoping to remedy the problems found in an inductive approach to science, such as confirmation bias, he clearly set forth the premises of falsification as the key component in the scientific method.[3]  Mill was also a Member of Parliament and an important figure in liberal political philosophy.






things changed around 1900 after the federal reserve was created, ww1, and the great depression.  a lot of pivotal stuff happened at the turn of the century.

Quote:

The Great Depression saw a sea change in liberalism, leading to the development of modern liberalism. In the words of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.:

    when the growing complexity of industrial conditions required increasing government intervention in order to assure more equal opportunities, the liberal tradition, faithful to the goal rather than to the dogma, altered its view of the state," and "there emerged the conception of a social welfare state, in which the national government had the express obligation to maintain high levels of employment in the economy, to supervise standards of life and labor, to regulate the methods of business competition, and to establish comprehensive patterns of social security.[10]








I would also like to now note that Classic Conservatism was close the opposite of what it is considered today also. 
classic conservatism has a lot to do with preserving the religious and feudal/monarch systems.  It promoted "common values"  society above the individual, stronger government control,absolute state Aristocratic control, and government market intervention to preserve Aristocratic wealth.



In conclusion Maybe the term is not too relevant any more because some people obviously don't understand the meanings and dvelopments of the terms.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


Edited by Shins (06/05/10 07:28 PM)


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Shins]
    #12693005 - 06/05/10 07:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
Classical liberal thinkers;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke

Quote:

John Locke (pronounced /ˈlɒk/; 29 August 1632 – 28 October 1704), widely known as the Father of Liberalism,[2][3][4]  was an English philosopher and physician  regarded as one of the most influential of Enlightenment thinkers. Considered the first of the British empiricists, he is equally important to social contract theory. His work had a great impact upon the development of epistemology and political philosophy. His writings influenced Voltaire and Rousseau, many Scottish Enlightenment thinkers, as well as the American revolutionaries. His contributions to classical republicanism and liberal theory are reflected in the American Declaration of Independence.[5]





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Smith

Quote:

Adam Smith (baptised 16 June 1723 – 17 July 1790 [OS: 5 June 1723 – 17 July 1790]) was a Scottish  moral philosopher and a pioneer of political economics. One of the key figures of the Scottish Enlightenment, Smith is the author of The Theory of Moral Sentiments  and An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations. The latter, usually abbreviated as The Wealth of Nations, is considered his magnum opus and the first modern work of economics. Smith is widely cited as the father of modern economics.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stuart_Mill

Quote:

John Stuart Mill (20 May 1806 – 8 May 1873) was a British philosopher and civil servant. An influential contributor to social theory, political theory, and political economy, his conception of liberty justified the freedom of the individual in opposition to unlimited state control.[2]  He was a proponent of utilitarianism, an ethical theory developed by Jeremy Bentham, although his conception of it was very different from Bentham's. Hoping to remedy the problems found in an inductive approach to science, such as confirmation bias, he clearly set forth the premises of falsification as the key component in the scientific method.[3]  Mill was also a Member of Parliament and an important figure in liberal political philosophy.






things changed around 1900 after the federal reserve was created, ww1, and the great depression.  a lot of pivotal stuff happened at the turn of the century.

Quote:

The Great Depression saw a sea change in liberalism, leading to the development of modern liberalism. In the words of Arthur Schlesinger Jr.:

    when the growing complexity of industrial conditions required increasing government intervention in order to assure more equal opportunities, the liberal tradition, faithful to the goal rather than to the dogma, altered its view of the state," and "there emerged the conception of a social welfare state, in which the national government had the express obligation to maintain high levels of employment in the economy, to supervise standards of life and labor, to regulate the methods of business competition, and to establish comprehensive patterns of social security.[10]








I would also like to now note that Classic Conservatism was close the opposite of what it is considered today also. 
classic conservatism has a lot to do with preserving the religious and feudal/monarch systems.  It promoted "common values"  society above the individual, stronger government control,absolute state Aristocratic control, and government market intervention to preserve Aristocratic wealth.



In conclusion Maybe the term is not too relevant any more because some people obviously don't understand the meanings and dvelopments of the terms.



None of those people are American.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Shins]
    #12693028 - 06/05/10 07:52 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shins said:
I would also like to now note that Classic Conservatism was close the opposite of what it is considered today also. 
classic conservatism has a lot to do with preserving the religious and feudal/monarch systems.  It promoted "common values"  society above the individual, stronger government control,absolute state Aristocratic control, and government market intervention to preserve Aristocratic wealth.



Have a reference?


Quote:

Shins said:
In conclusion Maybe the term is not too relevant any more because some people obviously don't understand the meanings and dvelopments of the terms.



It doesn't matter because regardless of what they used to mean, we all know what they now mean.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12693910 - 06/05/10 11:19 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'm a right wing libertarian, and I don't fall to my knees to give the government my rights in a crisis. In spite of your vulgar generalizations, some of us hold our civil liberties above all else.




What do you think about the Patriot Act?  Or the fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision up until recently?

"The fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision"

Those are the words of Ron Paul.


Quote:

And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.







--------------------
Trust thyself.


Edited by Prisoner#1 (06/06/10 01:04 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12693961 - 06/05/10 11:33 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Can't you make a point without flaming someone. FAIL:thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12695757 - 06/06/10 08:36 AM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Quote:

I'm a right wing libertarian, and I don't fall to my knees to give the government my rights in a crisis. In spite of your vulgar generalizations, some of us hold our civil liberties above all else.




What do you think about the Patriot Act?  Or the fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision up until recently?

"The fact the war has always been the cause of massive government expanision"

Those are the words of Ron Paul.


Quote:

And what leftist America actually is today is a great deal more important then the bullshit that you all are trying to say they were. In that article about classic liberalism it talks about limited Government. Please!!! the left cannot claim to advocate limited government when the facts obviously show otherwise.









What do I think of the patriot act? I hate it, and I'm not a Republican.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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OfflineLed Zeppelin
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12697675 - 06/06/10 04:47 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Cant we all just be libertarian? common sense people.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Led Zeppelin]
    #12698010 - 06/06/10 05:59 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Led Zeppelin said:
Cant we all just be libertarian? common sense people.



I would love to have eveyone become a Libertarian, but leftist love their Big Government, walfare, forced health care, and just all around sucking their daily nurishment off Uncle Sams dick way to much for that to ever happen.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12698089 - 06/06/10 06:14 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

If by leftist you mean liberals then all we all have to do is become conservatives and all will be well. Who needs libertarians?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Icelander]
    #12698196 - 06/06/10 06:39 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
If by leftist you mean liberals then all we all have to do is become conservatives and all will be well. Who needs libertarians?



I'm cool with fiscal conservatives, as a matter of fact I consider myself one. I'm not cool with the conservative christian factions of the Republican party though.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12698346 - 06/06/10 07:12 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

I'm also cool with most fiscal conservative ideas, I'm also cool with some liberal ideas.  I take what I consider good ideas whereever I can find them. And I find them everywhere as long as I can remain open.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Icelander]
    #12698392 - 06/06/10 07:23 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

N
Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm also cool with most fiscal conservative ideas, I'm also cool with some liberal ideas.  I take what I consider good ideas whereever I can find them. And I find them everywhere as long as I can remain open.



I support an extremely limited amount of liberal ideas, but that doen't make me closed minded(I'm not saying that your implying that either). For example I'm pro-choice although I myself find abortion immoral on a personal level I would never want to impose that morality on another through legislation. I support gays being able to openly serve in the military. Even though I really don't like gay people, it makes no difference, it has nothing to do with politics and respecting others civil liberties. With that being said, there isn't much else I can say I agree with liberals about. They pretty much stand for everything I am opposed to in all other aspects.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


Edited by Simplicitry (06/06/10 10:46 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12698493 - 06/06/10 07:43 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

You don't need to explain this to me. I assumed as much.  Your posts seem generally logical and balanced imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Icelander]
    #12699119 - 06/06/10 09:18 PM (11 years, 7 months ago)

Can't you make a point without flaming someone. FAIL

You're right, Simplicitry I feel bad, I do apologize.  I'm serious.


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: justAkid]
    #12854254 - 07/06/10 12:44 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

you got a party of big government and bigger government--at least the dems aren't hypocritical and admit they want to control your lives.....the spectrum i would use would be the nolan chart


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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12854794 - 07/06/10 03:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

libertarian23 said:
you got a party of big government and bigger government--at least the dems aren't hypocritical and admit they want to control your lives.....




This is a joke right?  Or you favor the democrats because ObamaCare is going to pay for your mental disorder treatment or something?


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: despisedicon]
    #12854851 - 07/06/10 03:46 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

he's a libertarian, no way he respects obama. i hate how they keep saying the government will control our lives though. the tea party patriots complained that obama wanted to keep the internet free with government intervention. this is a blatant case where the government protects freedom and corporation want to destroy it.


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12858086 - 07/06/10 08:18 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

well about the government and the internet honestly i dont want them getting their foot in the door because then THEY WILL control it and monitor the sites that everyone goes to(if they dont already--i think some FBI guy is probably claiming the Patriot Act gives them the right)i know i'm probably a little paranoid


hey communeart whats up--obama he's had a tough job and i think he made a lot of poor decisions but i think his ideology is lacking and thats the problem...i respect an idealogue who stands for something much more than someone like john mccain who doesn't stand for anything
and where my political thoughts are socially i'm probably much farther left than obama while economically i'm much farther right than ron paul. oh and love the debate thanks for the comment on the book page


the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.


and yes i'm serious at least the democrats admit quite a bit that they think government can solve almost everything while republicans talk a decent game about small government and then run out and pass tougher sentences so that their buddies in the privately owned prison systems can loot the government for some more cash all the while giving subsidies to farmers and any of their constituents that need federal contracts.


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InvisibleSimplicitry
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12858415 - 07/06/10 09:13 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

libertarian23 said:
well about the government and the internet honestly i dont want them getting their foot in the door because then THEY WILL control it and monitor the sites that everyone goes to(if they dont already--i think some FBI guy is probably claiming the Patriot Act gives them the right)i know i'm probably a little paranoid


hey communeart whats up--obama he's had a tough job and i think he made a lot of poor decisions but i think his ideology is lacking and thats the problem...i respect an idealogue who stands for something much more than someone like john mccain who doesn't stand for anything
and where my political thoughts are socially i'm probably much farther left than obama while economically i'm much farther right than ron paul. oh and love the debate thanks for the comment on the book page


the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.


and yes i'm serious at least the democrats admit quite a bit that they think government can solve almost everything while republicans talk a decent game about small government and then run out and pass tougher sentences so that their buddies in the privately owned prison systems can loot the government for some more cash all the while giving subsidies to farmers and any of their constituents that need federal contracts.



Just be careful not to bunch all right wingers in with the mess of the republican party. Some of us are against all big government from welfare to farm subsidies. Not all of us are christian. Well not all of us are republican. I'm a right wing libertarian. I'm right wing on fiscal matters like you, but unlike you I'm also right wing with social matters. I personally am a strict constitutionalists.


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12858635 - 07/06/10 10:02 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

well about the government and the internet honestly i dont want them getting their foot in the door because then THEY WILL control it and monitor the sites that everyone goes to(if they dont already--i think some FBI guy is probably claiming the Patriot Act gives them the right)i know i'm probably a little paranoid




well i agree you have a point there, but they will already control the internet no matter what, so corporations getting their hand off the internet is still one less person controlling it.
Quote:

oh and love the debate thanks for the comment on the book page



no prob :smile:
Quote:

the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.



yes i liked the tea party when ron paul had strong support in it. on many leftist site i see alot of people calling the tea party a manifestation of fascism ( it would take whatever form appropriate according to them) i used to dislike that and i still do, however i find some of it to have elements which fascism has. such as yearning for a certain past golden age ( though i think the american golden age was following ww2), strong nationalism which is often about following the founding documents like the constitution, there are always talks about we didn't bring our guns this time.

the illegal immigrants is a threat etc, but then i found smart libertarians on the tea party patriots website arguing that fears of illegal immigrants was a typical way to boost the power of the state. and i was happy to see that some actually care about big government.
Quote:

where my political thoughts are socially i'm probably much farther left than obama while economically i'm much farther right than ron paul



what do you mean by being very leftist socially? i don't exactly know what you mean there, even though extreme drug prohibition is normally reserved to the right i've seen nazis who are one of the few i actually respect say that it was up to one's person to decide to hurt their brain or not, and since they strongly believe that genetics has alot to do with behavior they of course come with an excuse that disciplined individuals won't succumb to abuses etc. also they didn't seem to like the fact that minorities were imprisoned unlike what you would expect, they clearly saw it contributed to family problems and family values are important for all races in their opinion. it might be a leftist position, but just saying i have surprisingly met some people on the extreme-right in favor of legalisation .


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12858912 - 07/06/10 10:54 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

well i disagree with the fact that fascism is an extreme right position--a statist is a statist is a statist...but on the nazism point they definately banned smoking in many public places much like is happening throughout the u.s. in mostly democrat run areas--lack of respect for personal property and a person owning their own body(the jews REALLY had control of their own body--right)--lack of respect for business which is owned by a person not the state...your understanding of what is left and what is right is much different from mine...


i view it more like this:
<-authoritarian(communism, fascism, socialism,leftist anarchists)--democrats--republicans-+-libertarians--anarcho-capitalists)


now how am i much more of a leftist socially? well drug policy would definately be one where i take things more liberally. also gay marriage would be a second and on that note i would like to say if the government didn't control marriage(thru having to go get a marriage license from your government) we wouldn't need to have the discussion of whether or not gays should be allowed to marry...but they dont want to get rid of the money they get from it...the fact that we even argue whether or not someone is allowed to do something as small as unionizing assets proves were not living in a free society...also socially when it comes to the church i firmly believe we need to keep it the hell out of government and policy-making...when someone takes a moral position based on faith and says that must be the moral position for all people or else they can use force upon you(being locked up in jail is force) we have serious problems in a "free" society...social programs(ie: medicare, medicaid social security, public housing, farm subsidies) are not social issues, they are economic ones. we can say it is compassionate to help people who are in need and it is right to do that and charity is an important part of life; but taking money by force(if you dont pay your taxes, you will go to jail) is not compassion it is theft, and it is wrong. 
i am strongly against how many people we lock up in prison in this country as well as the use of the death penalty...on the death penalty we have had something like 250 people who, thru the innocence project, have been acquited after being on death row...thats fucking sad...one innocent person killed is too many and sadly many on the states' side aren't upset about this at all...mandatory minimum sentencing has devestated family life in the inner city and that is disturbing to me and something needs to be done about it considering many of the "crimes" are not crimes at all but people succombing to vices(ie: drugs, alcohal, etc.)
If you aren't commiting a crime against someone else there is no reason you should be forcibly removed from society.
Obama talked a good game about drug policy but look at whats taken place with him in office. There are still raids on legitimate clubs in california and growers. Hows that song go "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". And i believe thats the Who and i really hate their music but thats a different subject


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12859888 - 07/07/10 02:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

well i disagree with the fact that fascism is an extreme right position--a statist is a statist is a statist...but on the nazism point they definately banned smoking in many public places much like is happening throughout the u.s. in mostly democrat run areas--lack of respect for personal property and a person owning their own body(the jews REALLY had control of their own body--right)--lack of respect for business which is owned by a person not the state...your understanding of what is left and what is right is much different from mine...




i do agree on the nazi, and the fascist that's true, it should be something that i point out to them, for a fascist the body of people belongs to the community, that's why they generally think it is right to wake you up at 3 in the morning to search your house, or prevent you from marrying people for political reason like race, etc. ironically this obviously include drugs and it is one argument i used against a communist who was opposed to drug legalization and the argument was pretty strong, another socialist who didn't care either way actually asked him if he believed the body of a person belongs to the community ( being a fascist can get you banned in those forums, something i oppose since many fascist website even allow communist in them) he basicly replied that if it affects your behavior then it should be controlled, but we all know that's bullshit. problem is the debate suddenly turned to legalizing heroin like all prohibitionist like to do.
Quote:

i view it more like this:
<-authoritarian(communism, fascism, socialism,leftist anarchists)--democrats--republicans-+-libertarians--anarcho-capitalists)



well this is a very libertarian political compass :tongue2:. i could have mine when it comes to worker ownership of the means of production and working place democracy.

Fascism,Republicans,libertarians,Democrats,Socialist,Communist,Anarchist.

you know at least in my opinion libertarians don't crack down on unions like we can expect the republicans to do, they are volontary association after all. though the unions in the usa are pretty useless.
Quote:

also gay marriage would be a second and on that note i would like to say if the government didn't control marriage(thru having to go get a marriage license from your government) we wouldn't need to have the discussion of whether or not gays should be allowed to marry...but they dont want to get rid of the money they get from it...the fact that we even argue whether or not someone is allowed to do something as small as unionizing assets proves were not living in a free society...also socially when it comes to the church i firmly believe we need to keep it the hell out of government and policy-making...when someone takes a moral position based on faith and says that must be the moral position for all people or else they can use force upon you



i can understand that, but it is the position of ron paul and you can understand that there it is very possible to have discrimination with this, i actually argued in a similar way, i said that a new denomination should be created for homosexuals and that's it. i feel it is too offensive for priest to say no to homosexuals, i also feel it is too offensive to force a priest to do it. then again i am not a big fan of religion, and someone said that he doesn't like gay marriage as an issue, it is idiotic and there is far too much time devoted on it, it is a distraction that elites uses to make us forget about real issues. he also said he opposes it because it means homosexuals want to be normal, they should accept who they are, in a way i disagree with this but in another i agree. and my idea kinda works with that.

not to be an asshole with ron paul that i admire alot, but many from the white supremacist and extreme-right love him, many of their cause are actually allowed in a libertarian government, discrimination is alright since you have the right to choose who your customer is. gay marriage should be regulated by the states. he also oppose abortion, though i guess he would let the state do that too.
Quote:

i am strongly against how many people we lock up in prison in this country as well as the use of the death penalty...on the death penalty we have had something like 250 people who, thru the innocence project, have been acquited after being on death row...thats fucking sad...one innocent person killed is too many and sadly many on the states' side aren't upset about this at all...mandatory minimum sentencing has devestated family life in the inner city and that is disturbing to me and something needs to be done about it considering many of the "crimes" are not crimes at all but people succombing to vices(ie: drugs, alcohal, etc.)
If you aren't commiting a crime against someone else there is no reason you should be forcibly removed from society.



yeah i guess that make you clearly on the left, i agree that mandatory minimums are insane, especially removing student loans to people who use pot, it sort of disprove that everyone who smokes pot will always be a loser who can never achieve anything if they have to make you fail for smoking pot in the first place.

death row is often classist and racist, and if people are often innocented after being on death row there's clearly a problem. sometime a single murder will get you on deathrow, i don't understand that at all. it seems that it is only because the act shocks the court. also someone pointed out that with the number of appeals that death row convicts are allowed to, we probably don't save that much money by killing them than putting them behind bars for life. though behind bars for life is somewhat disgusting in a way too. i am not sure it is really necessary for anyone, maybe it is, who knows.

Quote:

Obama talked a good game about drug policy but look at whats taken place with him in office. There are still raids on legitimate clubs in california and growers. Hows that song go "meet the new boss, same as the old boss". And i believe thats the Who and i really hate their music but thats a different subject




yeah remember when marijuana legalisation was on an internet poll and he laughed about it? in most of people's mind the whole change thing was exactly an end to politician bullshit like that, and discussing issues. maybe no western democracies will ever be ready for something like that , and people say we should be happy not to live in dictatorships. what good it is to live in a free society when our ideas are never allowed to be discussed by mainstream official without demonization no matter how high the polls can get in favor of legalisation. journalists are fucking puppets, i think i despise them more than politicians.

politicians can be corrupt and need to attract donations, but i think there's a cap on the amount of donation by person which they violate all the frigging time. but a journalist has to obey his master, after the second time he disobey he's out of a job.
Quote:

we have serious problems in a "free" society...social programs(ie: medicare, medicaid social security, public housing, farm subsidies) are not social issues, they are economic ones. we can say it is compassionate to help people who are in need and it is right to do that and charity is an important part of life; but taking money by force(if you dont pay your taxes, you will go to jail) is not compassion it is theft, and it is wrong. 




this is where i disagree, you may argue that when you work you enter a contract and both are consenting adult. you also say that you steal people through taxes, but i reply that corporation steal people of a part of the worth of their labour. sure they are consenting, except one is forced to work or starve, especially when you want to abolish social security, the other can employ someone else, especially in the 1800s capitalism where there was a surabondance of workers available they even employed woman and children in a time where it was heavily taboo for a woman to work. in fact this is what capitalism did, it destroyed traditional societies. i am not arguing that woman should not work, i am arguing that in the conditions that this work was done and the risk associated with it, at least the one traditionally taking care of the children could have been safe in such a society, problem is of course, the husband dieing, and the woman now has to beg,prostitute herself or find a new husband.

there was alot of jobs, but unions were cracked down upon,through diverse means including violence and were often rightly accused to be communist. of course i may be exagerating about the worst part of capitalism, but i don't see why we would have anything different nowdays if it wasn't for unions and the evil communist putting pressure on western government to show that workers in a capitalist world can live much better than in communist ones. what happened is that most of the 1800s conditions are now in the third world. it works with our theory. we are called labour aristocracy. i actually argued that we had an interests into waging wars in foreign countries to make us profit from it, but someone else somewhat convinced me that the main antagonism between the workers in the first world and anyone else is mainly the bourgeois, which i conceded that perhaps we have mixed interests.

libertarians are pretty much opposed to war on principles too, so overall they are pretty okay. i wanted to reserve this for the thread about your book, but what do you think for example of a business owner who had government subsidies during all his career, then suddenly a libertarian government is elected and he has no more? he will keep his money and advantage on the market, because he had an unfair advantage for all that time due to collusion of the private and public.


Edited by communeart (07/07/10 02:12 AM)


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12860807 - 07/07/10 09:23 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

many people in heavily unionized places here in the u.s. cannot get jobs...look at detroit and what the unions have done there virtually destroyed the industry of car manufacturing they reap what they sow

your really going to try and lay white supremecy at the feet of the right?  sen. byrd a former grand cyclops of the kkk just recently died-he was a democrat....the left has always used race politics either to scare up support for their candidates or to bat down others....i would argue that the left through their economic policy of government being the head of the household for many in the black community has virtually enslaved it(to the government money) and destroyed the family unit.  basically the left figured if you can beat em enslave em....many prominent people on the left were eugenicists

now i think that white supremecy is wrong but no more wrong than black liberation theology or la raza or any other race based group...but i really dont give a fuck what they do its their business and its their business who they associate with

workers not controlling companies? thank god...most workers dont know how to run a business...and companies don't enslave workers(unless we have bad immigration policy)but the government does...i mean fuck i work for three months just to pay my tax bill what the fuck is that? i have no state income tax thankfully or itd be more, but i pay three months of taxes so some fuck head senator can have an airport that he and three other people use(dem. john murtha whos now dead) or a fucking library named after him(dem byrd whos now dead too but also had like a million public places named after him) corporations are not evil...they need employees and if your good and you work hard you move up and if your not good or you dont like it you quit or get fired...it sucks but thats what happens do something else because you can...technology changes things and sometimes you need to change as well or you get left behind


the fact of the matter is that in history communism(or any authoritarian government) always leads to less freedom or massive death by government....mao, russia, germany, fascism in italy, hugo chavez with the whole shutting down television stations who disagree with him(oliver stone is a massive fucking tool), fidel castro, the ussr....my grandfather was estonian came to the us shortly after ww2 the soviets were pricks so he didn't join them but the nazis during the war...many estonians were forced to join either side(nazi or soviet)...the national socialists(nazis are authoritarians)were fuckheads too so he hid out in germany and ended up joining the american guard and guarding nazi officers awaiting trial...his sister wasn't allowed here...she was sent to canada and is bitter to this day.

shit happens though this country continues to be where most people want to come because your free... and these fucking statists want to make this place more like europe well europe is seeing that you cant tax everyone to death and only work 7 months a year and have cradle to grave coverage by your government(they cant afford it)-- many say that now isnt the time for government run healthcare because its a bad economic time right now and i cant help but think if its not good in a bad economic time, what makes it ok in a good economic time?

sorry this post is rambling too early in the am and gotta get to work peace


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12861760 - 07/07/10 02:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
he's a libertarian, no way he respects obama. i hate how they keep saying the government will control our lives though. the tea party patriots complained that obama wanted to keep the internet free with government intervention. this is a blatant case where the government protects freedom and corporation want to destroy it.




What?  Corporations can't destroy freedom.  Only governments can.  Some freedoms being lost to liberal government bullshit:

http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2010/07/san_francisco_starts_soda_ban.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16051436/

http://blog.timesunion.com/tablehopping/13889/assemblyman-seeking-to-ban-all-salt-in-restaurant-cooking/

Liberals.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12861771 - 07/07/10 02:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

communeart said:
he's a libertarian, no way he respects obama. i hate how they keep saying the government will control our lives though. the tea party patriots complained that obama wanted to keep the internet free with government intervention. this is a blatant case where the government protects freedom and corporation want to destroy it.




What?  Corporations can't destroy freedom.  Only governments can.


They can influence the government in such a manner that it destroys freedom, though, which is probably (I mean obviously) what he was trying to say.


--------------------
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fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Poid]
    #12861899 - 07/07/10 03:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

So can individual people.  Nonetheless the agency of control is the government.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12863130 - 07/07/10 07:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

agreed with zappaisgod....any link between government and corporations is not capitalism....anytime there is a a government/business coalition(think the health insurance bill) you should be worried because government is the enforcement agent(think mandate to buy insurance from private company)....another illustration is whats going on betweenn fedex and ups....fedex does most of its shipping by air and thus is not subject to some union beneficial law that ups is...ups is losing market share to fedex because w/o having to pay its workers union(exceedingly high) wages it can provide cheaper services...i've heard the average ups worker makes like $70000, to deliver fucking packages...anyways ups then instead of fighting an arcane law and paying people what the job is worth decides to lobby congress to include air shipping in the law to raise the competitions overhead to "level" the playing field...what a crock of shit....most large business are fine with regulations because they shut out competition...thats right the little guy that leftist authoritarians love to hold up and coddle gets screwed by the political class coming together with the large corporations...THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM...THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN A STATIST SOCIETY!!!


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12863831 - 07/07/10 10:05 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have to say after reading your post we see things very similarly. Especially what you said about marriage (something I mad a thread about one day). I wish more people had common sense


--------------------

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

I think we should cut all the social parasites from their welfare checks. Then they will either find a means to support themselves or starve to death, either of wich is good for the economy and society.

I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal."

"Islam in a man is worse then rabies in a dog"


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12864336 - 07/07/10 11:35 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yeah liberty is good....but i think you should really take that phrase off your shit...about the parasites and what not...its not their fault that they have been enslaved and lured into a life of destitution by the political class whos promised to take care of them--not only that but many socio-economic problems(like enslavement to government subsidies) have happened after many generations peoples mothers and grandmothers and great grandmothers have been on welfare so are we really to expect that they would not be on welfare as well...not to mention state and local anti business governments(think tax policy) forcing businesses(think jobs)away from cities and states....and on top of that a judicial system that devestates inner city families...until recently crack(predominantly black) got you ten years minimum fed time for simple possession while powder(predominantly white) got you 5 minimum,taking black people away from their families 5 years longer than whites minimally...whats a single mother to do for those ten years....not to mention white farmers throughout the united states recieving subsidies EVERY YEAR..also think of the number of contractors who bid on contracts to build pointless shit for the government--and i'm not talking about highways..i'm talking about building this library or that library built for this senator or that house memeber...anyways most parasites aren't parisites but people who have been enslaved/brainwashed by politicians and government...so please think deeper into the issue than seeing whats at the surface and blaming your fellow citizens...statism is the problem, politicians are the problem and government is their tool to fleece you...the people they buy to vote for them are victims and are everyday people of a system that is not capitalism contrary to popular belief.
peace


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12866063 - 07/08/10 08:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

many people in heavily unionized places here in the u.s. cannot get jobs...look at detroit and what the unions have done there virtually destroyed the industry of car manufacturing they reap what they sow

your really going to try and lay white supremecy at the feet of the right?  sen. byrd a former grand cyclops of the kkk just recently died-he was a democrat....the left has always used race politics either to scare up support for their candidates or to bat down others....i would argue that the left through their economic policy of government being the head of the household for many in the black community has virtually enslaved it(to the government money) and destroyed the family unit.  basically the left figured if you can beat em enslave em....many prominent people on the left were eugenicists

now i think that white supremecy is wrong but no more wrong than black liberation theology or la raza or any other race based group...but i really dont give a fuck what they do its their business and its their business who they associate with




dude white supremacy can be leftist or rightist but generally the right stands for preserving the institution or traditional society, so it clearly is more often on the right. i didn't want to be a dick about it, i only said ron paul has support from the white supremacist because his ideas match those of white supremacist. nazi's are from the extreme-right there is no doubt about that, the sort of leader cult and roman,spartan empire ideals is without a doubt. you say that many on the left were eugenists this is true, but they were not socialists, else they would oppose what most of the eugenists do, that is sterilize minorities because they thought they were inferior.  saying eugenism is from the left is more or less stupid because spartna society was strongly eugenist.

i don't see how being enslaved to the government destroys the family unit. the extreme-left complain about welfare being a way to enslave and keep people down very often. they blame the capitalist system which cannot give jobs to every member of society.
Quote:

workers not controlling companies? thank god...most workers dont know how to run a business...and companies don't enslave workers(unless we have bad immigration policy)but the government does...i mean fuck i work for three months just to pay my tax bill what the fuck is that? i have no state income tax thankfully or itd be more, but i pay three months of taxes so some fuck head senator can have an airport that he and three other people use(dem. john murtha whos now dead) or a fucking library named after him(dem byrd whos now dead too but also had like a million public places named after him) corporations are not evil...they need employees and if your good and you work hard you move up and if your not good or you dont like it you quit or get fired...it sucks but thats what happens do something else because you can...technology changes things and sometimes you need to change as well or you get left behind



what type of corporation management do you think workers as a whole cannot vote to manage it? choosing who is employed? most of the point of such worker management is to prevent CEO's from giving themselves a large pay rise, those CEO's can also talk to people and put forward their ideas, and at the end people vote. you basicly expect people to vote for working less higher pay. cooperatives function pretty well in my opinion.
Quote:

the fact of the matter is that in history communism(or any authoritarian government) always leads to less freedom or massive death by government....mao, russia, germany, fascism in italy, fidel castro, the ussr....my grandfather was estonian came to the us shortly after ww2 the soviets were pricks so he didn't join them but the nazis during the war...many estonians were forced to join either side(nazi or soviet)...the national socialists(nazis are authoritarians)were fuckheads too so he hid out in germany and ended up joining the american guard and guarding nazi officers awaiting trial...his sister wasn't allowed here...she was sent to canada and is bitter to this day.




italy was not communist at all, and yes those countries lead to shit. but was there less freedom in communist russia than in tsarist russia? oh right economic freedom, a freedom that only the wealthy call freedom because the working class have close to none. what happened in tsarist russia was that the communist movement over there was fighting a dictatorship as opposed to a fake bourgeois democracy, so it was fair game to be more violent, at the begining of the revolution they were lenient on people who later opposed them so they finally opposed any pretentions of being morally better than capitalists, something they should have later on. fidel castro may imprison people for political opinions, but so does the united states. unless you believe that every charges in cuba is planted to justify political persecution and that every charges in the united states isn't.
Quote:

hugo chavez with the whole shutting down television stations who disagree with him(oliver stone is a massive fucking tool)




this is fucking bullshit, the television stations who kept on calling him a psychopathic murderer are still online, they only are 33% of the television network as opposed to being over 50%. you see how fox news treats obama? multiply that by 10, at least fox news never talked about obama's mental wellbeing. of course i am against closing down such news station, but those news station supported a violent coup against chavez, what if fox news supported a nazi-style military coup d'etat in the united states, you think it would still be online? those news network were still online for some time and they could still express their anti-communist rhetoric and claim chavez want to help the FARC in colombia. and there are still channels who do. when corporate capitalist media with a clear interests in overthrowing chavez basicly control almost all the news information in a country, wouldn't you be worried about freedom of speech?
Quote:

hit happens though this country continues to be where most people want to come because your free... and these fucking statists want to make this place more like europe well europe is seeing that you cant tax everyone to death and only work 7 months a year and have cradle to grave coverage by your government(they cant afford it)-- many say that now isnt the time for government run healthcare because its a bad economic time right now and i cant help but think if its not good in a bad economic time, what makes it ok in a good economic time?



canada does just fine with public healthcare, and perhaps there shouldn't be public healthcare but there should be the public option, i can't find any reason to oppose public option personally.

the economic crisis has nothing to do with taxing people to death, it is the lack of regulation of banks who played gamble and who are too big to fail.
Quote:

What?  Corporations can't destroy freedom.  Only governments can.  Some freedoms being lost to liberal government bullshit:



corporations can look at your private information to know what products you like, this is a breach of freedom. corporation can control the internet and decide which content has priority, this is another breach of freedom both government and corporations can destroy freedom, though i agree that it is more often the government in history who did so.
Quote:

.i've heard the average ups worker makes like $70000, to deliver fucking packages...anyways ups then instead of fighting an arcane law and paying people what the job is worth decides to lobby congress to include air shipping in the law to raise the competitions overhead to "level" the playing field...what a crock of shit....most large business are fine with regulations because they shut out competition...thats right the little guy that leftist authoritarians love to hold up and coddle gets screwed by the political class coming together with the large corporations...THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM...THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS IN A STATIST SOCIETY!!!




capitalism always has regulation, you libertarian just don't understand they would put lead in our children's toy then launch a large media campaign denying there is lead in our children's toy. why do you care about people being paid 70 000$ for delivering packages, i'm not sure about their education or the kind of work they do, but what about 1.1 million per years and more for sitting in an office? with air conditioner. what's unfair is union workers having absurd priviledge and non-union workers being treated like dirt, but when those non-union worker try to form such an union, the corporations sometime close like wal-mart did, or they generally make a dick of themselves and harass the employees who try to unionize the corporation. in poorer countries like colombia 8 union leaders were killed in a row in their attempt to unionize coca-cola plants, would the people of colombia care and stop drinking coke or anyone else in the world? fuck no. this is why i'm very skeptic of a libertarian society where the police force are privatized.
Quote:

not to mention white farmers throughout the united states recieving subsidies EVERY YEAR.



yes and ron paul explained to those farmers that he was opposed to all subsidies but that most of these subsidies are for large corporations. it could be hard to have their support that way but if large corporations no longer have subsidies it still means that small farmers are better off i think.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12866561 - 07/08/10 11:49 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
the extreme-left complain about welfare being a way to enslave and keep people down very often. they blame the capitalist system which cannot give jobs to every member of society.





The left doesn't complain about that.  It is what the left does.

As far as capitalism "giving" people full employment all the time, this is absurd on at least counts.

1.  Capitalism doesn't give anybody anything except freedom.  Sometimes that includes freedom to fail.  At which point you should take the freedom to find something else to do with yourself.  One failure is not a death sentence.

2.  Full employment is neither desirable nor possible outside of a slave state, and by that I mean a fictitious perfectly run Kollektif that assigns each member a task.  Or traditional slavery, of course, with only one Massa.  Best choice for that would be me.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12866714 - 07/08/10 12:37 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

nazi's are from the extreme-right there is no doubt about that





http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/index.html

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: AlexD]
    #12867079 - 07/08/10 02:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you.  The kid's ignorance oozes so much raw nonsense it's hard for one person to get to it all.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12867216 - 07/08/10 03:00 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The left doesn't complain about that.  It is what the left does.

As far as capitalism "giving" people full employment all the time, this is absurd on at least counts.

1.  Capitalism doesn't give anybody anything except freedom.  Sometimes that includes freedom to fail.  At which point you should take the freedom to find something else to do with yourself.  One failure is not a death sentence.

2.  Full employment is neither desirable nor possible outside of a slave state, and by that I mean a fictitious perfectly run Kollektif that assigns each member a task.  Or traditional slavery, of course, with only one Massa.  Best choice for that would be me.




oh come on, giving a job or allowing people to have a job, you know what i meant, it may be because english is not my primary language but you knew what i meant don't be dishonest.

marxism did coerce people in taking jobs that they were educated or most able to do or sometime some jobs were more required than others . i doubt people were beaten up or shot for wanting to do another job, but if the current market encourage people to do certain jobs because of supply and demand i don't see what's wrong with such measures in a communist society to respond to demand.
Quote:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler



they used socialist rhetoric to pretend to be on the side of the working class, they used the color red to get the support of former communist. in reality, small businesses were helped, and large businesses were maintained. there was nothing socialist in germany, except perhaps higher healthcare coverage. actions speaks louder than word.
Quote:

Thank you.  The kid's ignorance oozes so much raw nonsense it's hard for one person to get to it all.



ignorance of what? i would say you are the one who is ignorant, you have no idea how economy works, you have no idea what socialism and think that a system where there is a fuhrer dictating all government policies and talks of inferior ethnic groups can be reconciled with socialists advocating for a world with complete equality of opportunity and rights.

and before you bring up stalin, know that stalin couldn't do much without the party behind him, and nowdays no communist defend him to the death, we defend him when we perceive anti-communist to lie about him but not more.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12867716 - 07/08/10 04:32 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

communeart said:
Quote:

The left doesn't complain about that.  It is what the left does.

As far as capitalism "giving" people full employment all the time, this is absurd on at least counts.

1.  Capitalism doesn't give anybody anything except freedom.  Sometimes that includes freedom to fail.  At which point you should take the freedom to find something else to do with yourself.  One failure is not a death sentence.

2.  Full employment is neither desirable nor possible outside of a slave state, and by that I mean a fictitious perfectly run Kollektif that assigns each member a task.  Or traditional slavery, of course, with only one Massa.  Best choice for that would be me.




oh come on, giving a job or allowing people to have a job, you know what i meant, it may be because english is not my primary language but you knew what i meant don't be dishonest.




No, I don't let this thing slide.  I think it permeates thought to the detriment of rationality.  It also presupposes that something even should be given.  Nothing should be given, everything should be earned.  An immensely important intellectual distinction and one that the Left constantly gets snared in
Quote:



marxism did coerce people in taking jobs that they were educated or most able to do or sometime some jobs were more required than others . i doubt people were beaten up or shot for wanting to do another job, but if the current market encourage people to do certain jobs because of supply and demand i don't see what's wrong with such measures in a communist society to respond to demand.




Your understanding of the meaning of coerce is faulty.  Coerce does not mean the same thing as compel.
Quote:


Quote:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler



they used socialist rhetoric to pretend to be on the side of the working class, they used the color red to get the support of former communist. in reality, small businesses were helped, and large businesses were maintained. there was nothing socialist in germany, except perhaps higher healthcare coverage. actions speaks louder than word.



Bullshit.  Just for your edification, fascism IS a form of socialism.  They are both for the good ofthe Kollektif, Komrade.
Quote:




Quote:

Thank you.  The kid's ignorance oozes so much raw nonsense it's hard for one person to get to it all.



ignorance of what? i would say you are the one who is ignorant, you have no idea how economy works, you have no idea what socialism and think that a system where there is a fuhrer dictating all government policies and talks of inferior ethnic groups can be reconciled with socialists advocating for a world with complete equality of opportunity and rights.




Capitalism is the nearest thing we can ever get to equality of opportunity.  The left continues to falsely believe that equality of opportunity should only exist to the extent that it produces an equality of result.  Which is de facto nonsense.  Half of all people are below average.
Quote:



and before you bring up stalin, know that stalin couldn't do much without the party behind him, and nowdays no communist defend him to the death, we defend him when we perceive anti-communist to lie about him but not more.




I had no intention of bringing up Stalin.  But you bringing him up is quite interesting.  Other murderous heroes of the Kollektif mind:
Lenin
Mao
Pol Pot
These are just the three that we know each racked up many millions of dead bodies.  I'm sure there more.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12868428 - 07/08/10 06:29 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

o, I don't let this thing slide.  I think it permeates thought to the detriment of rationality.  It also presupposes that something even should be given.  Nothing should be given, everything should be earned.  An immensely important intellectual distinction and one that the Left constantly gets snared in




goddamit, i meant taken , excuse my poor inferior french culture for the word having a different connotation. employers frequently say to the man they just hired that they gave him in the job in my language, we are so leftist.
Quote:

your understanding of the meaning of coerce is faulty.  Coerce does not mean the same thing as compel.



yes i didn't know how to say coerce without the violent or force part. sorry about that.
Quote:

Bullshit.  Just for your edification, fascism IS a form of socialism.  They are both for the good ofthe Kollektif, Komrade.
Quote:




every ideology is for the collective. fascism may also means that common good is more important than individual good, collective right more important than individual right. but socialism is the abolition of class based society, the collective ownership of the means of production, there is no way that socialism means collective good or collective right.

nazism rather than fascism may be closer to socialism in rhetoric only, as they say all german are part of the same race but do nothing to abolish class. while fascism maintains class society but want more class mobility.
Quote:

Capitalism is the nearest thing we can ever get to equality of opportunity.  The left continues to falsely believe that equality of opportunity should only exist to the extent that it produces an equality of result.  Which is de facto nonsense.  Half of all people are below average.




you have the right to your opinion on this but nobody wants equality of results, as i said socialism has people being paid 4 time the lowest paid how is that equality of results, and communism is post-scarcity and aims to make certains good as free as possible just like water is to some extent. movies are free for example on the internet and crackdown on it is far ahead, there are ways like buying the dvd or going to the theatre to keep something free yet make money to create other movies.

and for your information, getting laid will always be unequal.
Quote:

I had no intention of bringing up Stalin.  But you bringing him up is quite interesting.  Other murderous heroes of the Kollektif mind:
Lenin
Mao
Pol Pot
These are just the three that we know each racked up many millions of dead bodies.  I'm sure there more.




lenin didn't rack up no millions though he did summarily execute some people, just like the americans during their civil wars. mao's death were due to poor planning of farming policy instead of purges or false trials for treason ( he told peasants to beat a drum to get sparrows in the air until they died of starvation, this was to boost agricultural output, what happened is that those crows didn't eat a certain type of worms which then proceded to ruin a shitload of crops).

as for pol pot, we don't consider him a communist, he may have called himself that but he was an agrarian nutjob, he was also supported by the usa when vietnam attacked cambodia. also china to be fair. the reason was that vietnam used to be the imperialist in this region when it was under colonization .so the war, while it was in response to humanitarian disaster and some border fighting, was to flex their muscle and dominate the area, as shown in history, communist nation don't really back each other as brothers unlike what some anti-communist will tell you. and no, there are none others who racked up millions, but many are still guilty of summary executions,imprisoning dissenters and experimenting with torture . why am i telling you that, i'm giving you ammos right. well i guess the united states does torture too.



Quote:

From 1979 to 1997 he and a remnant of the old Khmer Rouge operated from the border region of Cambodia and Thailand, where they clung to power and United Nations recognition as the rightful government of Cambodia.




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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12868853 - 07/08/10 07:39 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

You may not consider Pol Pot a communist (embarrassed?) but he certainly produced 100% employment.

That bit of business from Lenin that in order to eat you must work is hardly the state of current leftist thought today.  Current leftist thought today is that regardless of what you do you get what you want regardless of what you contribute.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12868923 - 07/08/10 07:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i would just like to say that with most authoritarian governments they preach about equality and usually take power based on trying to give "equality", socialism is for equalizing outcomes amongst all classes....what they never admit is that this will never happen so long as their is a class that they like to keep separate when speaking and that is the political class...in socialism the ones who make the rules will never be equal to the ones who must obey the rules...not to mention that financially socialism bankrupts nations...i think that many of the countries in france would not have lasted this long financially without piggy-backing off of the stronger economies thru the formation of the euro...i think it was a terrible idea to form the euro because all euro-zone contries were not equal in economic production, letting weaker economies survive longer than they should have...greece's government hasn't really made sound financial decesions(and more taxes for more government isn't a good financial decision) and now they're being forced to tighten their belts.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12870373 - 07/09/10 12:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yes i know i didn't use the right reply to function but i am responding to 2 post at the same time so it is a pain in the ass.

Quote:

You may not consider Pol Pot a communist (embarrassed?) but he certainly produced 100% employment.

That bit of business from Lenin that in order to eat you must work is hardly the state of current leftist thought today.  Current leftist thought today is that regardless of what you do you get what you want regardless of what you contribute.




dude if you don't work you don't eat is socialism as there is no excuse to not work except illnesses etc and regardless of what you contribute you get what you want is communism since everything is post-scarcity and everything is sci-fi including cloning and teleportation,many like me don't believe such a system will ever truly exists but do not deny it's possibility. ¸

well, i guess you got a point there with pol pot, but one major focus on communist government in poor countries was to fight illeteracy and while having glasses didn't mean you were an intellectual, people with glasses were executed because they were often bourgeois since only such people could afford glasses, there was a strong anti-intellectualism, in fact intellectuals were shot . education is a very important thing for all socialist because it is from there that society evolves at all , the soviet system of education was pretty good for example, that's why it had a space programs and actually beat the americans to the first drone on the moon if i am not mistaken, the first man on the moon was sorta symbolic.

pol pot did have features of communism, since he wanted his society to live in what we call primitive communism, where people pretty much share their tools and what they have because the conditions requires it. he might have more similarity with anarcho-primitivism but they would never accept a state. so perhaps a communo-primitivism? and a genocidal one too?
Quote:

i would just like to say that with most authoritarian governments they preach about equality and usually take power based on trying to give "equality", .......not to mention that financially socialism bankrupts nations...i think that many of the countries in france would not have lasted this long financially without piggy-backing off of the stronger economies thru the formation of the euro...i think it was a terrible idea to form the euro because all euro-zone contries were not equal in economic production, letting weaker economies survive longer than they should have...greece's government hasn't really made sound financial decesions(and more taxes for more government isn't a good financial decision) and now they're being forced to tighten their belts.




pinochet didn't give a fuck about equality, mussolini either. hitler preached equality and never delivered anything to bring that except sometime better working condition but less rights as in the ability to change jobs or the right to strike. the euro zone is a bad thing, but i don't see how france gained anything of it, i think finance are still a matter of individual states, what is so socialist about france that isn't in canada? why would socialism bankrupt nations? you seem to think government spending is socialism and i have explained to you why it is not.
Quote:

socialism is for equalizing outcomes amongst all classes....what they never admit is that this will never happen so long as their is a class that they like to keep separate when speaking and that is the political class...in socialism the ones who make the rules will never be equal to the ones who must obey the rules



yes this is a flaw that many comrades discuss when talking about cuba which we pretty much consider as one of the only communist country that isn't totally full of shit. we recognize that those who are closer to the government are treated better than other citizens, we also recognize some political prisoners. but in this case it is funny to point out to a libertarian that corporations who have lobbies do better than corporations who don't and that there are political prisoners in the usa. but of course they have charges that aren't trumped up like the political prisoners in cuba right.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12870485 - 07/09/10 01:10 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

oh i totally agree that corporations who have lobbies get better outcomes than those that dont...but this is not capitalism...capitalism is not a business-lawmaker partnership....i would argue that, with a government that intends to regulate and control many aspects of the economy, businesses lobby the government(political class) to keep the government out of their business. also businesses lobby government to pass laws to keep away competition...in no way is this capitalism...capitalism is not politics...ideally if government would stay the fuck out of the way of business there would be no need for lobbyists. it would be futile to lobby a politician b/c he wouldn't be able to pass a law to interfere anyways. the politician would be constrained...ideally the consumer would decide...which business provides a better product...which provides the cheapest product...or which provides the best service....whoever provides the best in the consumers' eyes succeeds and survives...this is capitalism.

the more a government regulates and interferes in the marketplace the more money will be spent on lobbying that government. and in an environment like this those evil large corporations(your opinion of them) survive because they have more money to line the pockets of the politicians...the little guy gets devestated in an environment like this.


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Offlinetxlibertarian
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12870661 - 07/09/10 02:19 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:

Just be careful not to bunch all right wingers in with the mess of the republican party. Some of us are against all big government from welfare to farm subsidies. Not all of us are christian. Well not all of us are republican. I'm a right wing libertarian. I'm right wing on fiscal matters like you, but unlike you I'm also right wing with social matters.




You actually contradicted the definition of libertarianism.


Edited by txlibertarian (07/09/10 11:37 PM)


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Invisibledespisedicon
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: txlibertarian]
    #12870695 - 07/09/10 02:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Labels are for soup cans.  I'm with George Washington.  He warned of the dangers of political parties in his farewell address.


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: despisedicon]
    #12870761 - 07/09/10 03:04 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.





Probably? You watch MSNBC too much? You do understand that Tea Party is a protest against Socialism and nothing but that right? Sure there are anti-drug/prostitution social cons there but it's 100% libertarian cause and there are loads of libertarian folk out there. If you're libertarian you should be protesting with them not bitching about them...


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: AlexD]
    #12871297 - 07/09/10 08:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

AlexD said:
Quote:

the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.





Probably? You watch MSNBC too much? You do understand that Tea Party is a protest against Socialism and nothing but that right? Sure there are anti-drug/prostitution social cons there but it's 100% libertarian cause and there are loads of libertarian folk out there. If you're libertarian you should be protesting with them not bitching about them...




I would argue that more than likely if you take the tea partiers and what they believe, yeah they are for laissez-faire ecnomics to an extent...a number are farmers who recieve subsidies and would be pissed if you cut off their faucet...a number are contractors or small business owners who have gov. contracts would be upset if they didn't get their contracts...in texas i'm sure there is some private prison builders/workers who are tea partiers and would be pissed if the cash stopped coming....also how many tea partiers actually want an end to foreign war. how many tea partiers think that we defeated germany sixty years ago and we dont need to have a base there yet, that europe should protect itself...not to mention another key issue for libertarians, immigration and more of it is good for america...they still don't realize that freedom has some uglyness(drugs, gays-depending on your position on them, people saying dirty, vile things, etc.) and freedom has positives as well....the tea partiers still don't get that to protect the positives we must accept the negatives, because if we try to fix the negatives through government, inevitably the government will destroy the positives(like obama putting a guy in charge of medicare who thinks brittain's system of rationed care is good)

the problem with conservatism is it does not provide a clear and different alternative to progressiveism....american conservativeism is the backpack full of stones on the back of socialism/communism slowing it down as it races to the top of the mountain....everytime conservatives compromise with the left the left gets closer to the summit...american conservatism is not an alternative path but a group of people saying wait! and slow down! all the while compromising their beliefs every step of the way(think bush giving up on what was left of the free-market) what a load of shit.  Libertarianism is the path out.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12871457 - 07/09/10 10:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

oh i totally agree that corporations who have lobbies get better outcomes than those that dont...but this is not capitalism...capitalism is not a business-lawmaker partnership....i would argue that, with a government that intends to regulate and control many aspects of the economy, businesses lobby the government(political class) to keep the government out of their business. also businesses lobby government to pass laws to keep away competition...in no way is this capitalism...capitalism is not politics...ideally if government would stay the fuck out of the way of business there would be no need for lobbyists. it would be futile to lobby a politician b/c he wouldn't be able to pass a law to interfere anyways. the politician would be constrained...ideally the consumer would decide...which business provides a better product...which provides the cheapest product...or which provides the best service....whoever provides the best in the consumers' eyes succeeds and survives...this is capitalism.

the more a government regulates and interferes in the marketplace the more money will be spent on lobbying that government. and in an environment like this those evil large corporations(your opinion of them) survive because they have more money to line the pockets of the politicians...the little guy gets devestated in an environment like this.




well i do agree 100% with all of what you said, i guess the difference between you and i is i don't believe the needs of the majority will be fulfilled without taxation or any government run programs. you believe everything falls in place with capitalism.
Quote:

I would argue that more than likely if you take the tea partiers and what they believe, yeah they are for laissez-faire ecnomics to an extent...a number are farmers who recieve subsidies and would be pissed if you cut off their faucet...a number are contractors or small business owners who have gov. contracts would be upset if they didn't get their contracts...in texas i'm sure there is some private prison builders/workers who are tea partiers and would be pissed if the cash stopped coming....also how many tea partiers actually want an end to foreign war. how many tea partiers think that we defeated germany sixty years ago and we dont need to have a base there yet, that europe should protect itself...not to mention another key issue for libertarians, immigration and more of it is good for america...they still don't realize that freedom has some uglyness(drugs, gays-depending on your position on them, people saying dirty, vile things, etc.) and freedom has positives as well....the tea partiers still don't get that to protect the positives we must accept the negatives, because if we try to fix the negatives through government, inevitably the government will destroy the positives(like obama putting a guy in charge of medicare who thinks brittain's system of rationed care is good)

the problem with conservatism is it does not provide a clear and different alternative to progressiveism....american conservativeism is the backpack full of stones on the back of socialism/communism slowing it down as it races to the top of the mountain....everytime conservatives compromise with the left the left gets closer to the summit...american conservatism is not an alternative path but a group of people saying wait! and slow down! all the while compromising their beliefs every step of the way(think bush giving up on what was left of the free-market) what a load of shit.  Libertarianism is the path out.



the tea party was good when many of them supported ron paul, i even prefer the conspiracy theory guys to the current stereotype of the tea party since they are more likely to oppose wars due to the fact that they have some knowledge about false-flag operation.

i do believe the tea party is a tool for the rich upper class to put pressure on the government for pro-corporate interests. clearly on the last healthcare debate the insurance company had a clear interest in supporting the tea party. ron paul's libertarianism may be real capitalism as you call it, but i feel that anyone elected as a tea party member will basicly be a republican with less government. at least ron paul first cut will be in the military and the insane amount of military base the usa has around the world. there is too much anti-illegals pro war on terror folk in the tea party. none of them seem to talk about ending the role of the united states as a global policeman, and regaining some respect from the world simply by minding their own business.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12872235 - 07/09/10 01:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Good fucking lord there is just too much raw dumb there.
Quote:



the tea party was good when many of them supported ron paul,




Ron Paul is a jackass and had nothing to do with the current tea party movement.  For its origins see Rick Santelli rant.
Quote:

i even prefer the conspiracy theory guys to the current stereotype of the tea party since they are more likely to oppose wars due to the fact that they have some knowledge about false-flag operation.




They have no knowledge.  They are ignorant buffoons in severe need of psychological help.
Quote:



i do believe the tea party is a tool for the rich upper class to put pressure on the government for pro-corporate interests.




Stunningly enough you might want to consider who owns corporations. 
Quote:

clearly on the last healthcare debate the insurance company had a clear interest in supporting the tea party.




That's funny.  The insurance companies love this deal.  The government just forced more people to buy their product.  Do you know who gets fucked?  Small business.  That isn't your giant corporatins that you hate so much but use products of everyday.
Quote:

ron paul's libertarianism may be real capitalism as you call it, but i feel that anyone elected as a tea party member will basicly be a republican with less government.




There actually is no such thing as a Tea Party.  It doesn't exist.  And if the popular uprising known as the Tea Party results in big government Republicans getting tossed well then, good.  They betrayed their principles.  Fuck off back to the farm, Lindsey Graham.
Quote:

at least ron paul first cut will be in the military and the insane amount of military base the usa has around the world.




Ron Paul will do nothing because he will never be anything more than he is, which is a fringe nutcase with a seat in Congress that he has managed to parlay into exactly nothing.  None of his whackjob shit ever gets passed.
Quote:

there is too much anti-illegals pro war on terror folk in the tea party. none of them seem to talk about ending the role of the united states as a global policeman, and regaining some respect from the world simply by minding their own business.




If you aren't going to follow the proper application process for entry into this country you can just fuck off.  Just what are the Canuck requirements for entry into Canoodia.  I know the one's for Mexico are quite stringent.

Minding our own business?  The world is our business, child.  And the only way the world will respect the US is if it strong.  Not some faggy Neville Chamberlain look the other way wimp like France.  Forget that.  Even France think Obama's a pussy.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12873763 - 07/09/10 06:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Good fucking lord there is just too much raw dumb there.
Quote:



the tea party was good when many of them supported ron paul,




Ron Paul is a jackass and had nothing to do with the current tea party movement.  For its origins see Rick Santelli rant.
Quote:

i even prefer the conspiracy theory guys to the current stereotype of the tea party since they are more likely to oppose wars due to the fact that they have some knowledge about false-flag operation.




They have no knowledge.  They are ignorant buffoons in severe need of psychological help.
Quote:



i do believe the tea party is a tool for the rich upper class to put pressure on the government for pro-corporate interests.




Stunningly enough you might want to consider who owns corporations. 
Quote:

clearly on the last healthcare debate the insurance company had a clear interest in supporting the tea party.




That's funny.  The insurance companies love this deal.  The government just forced more people to buy their product.  Do you know who gets fucked?  Small business.  That isn't your giant corporatins that you hate so much but use products of everyday.
Quote:

ron paul's libertarianism may be real capitalism as you call it, but i feel that anyone elected as a tea party member will basicly be a republican with less government.




There actually is no such thing as a Tea Party.  It doesn't exist.  And if the popular uprising known as the Tea Party results in big government Republicans getting tossed well then, good.  They betrayed their principles.  Fuck off back to the farm, Lindsey Graham.
Quote:

at least ron paul first cut will be in the military and the insane amount of military base the usa has around the world.




Ron Paul will do nothing because he will never be anything more than he is, which is a fringe nutcase with a seat in Congress that he has managed to parlay into exactly nothing.  None of his whackjob shit ever gets passed.
Quote:

there is too much anti-illegals pro war on terror folk in the tea party. none of them seem to talk about ending the role of the united states as a global policeman, and regaining some respect from the world simply by minding their own business.




If you aren't going to follow the proper application process for entry into this country you can just fuck off.  Just what are the Canuck requirements for entry into Canoodia.  I know the one's for Mexico are quite stringent.

Minding our own business?  The world is our business, child.  And the only way the world will respect the US is if it strong.  Not some faggy Neville Chamberlain look the other way wimp like France.  Forget that.  Even France think Obama's a pussy.





i'm having a hard time splitting your quotes, so here we go
1. ron paul is smarter than you , at least he wants to end the war on drugs.

2. i don't like them that much, but at least they aren't insane
Quote:

Albert Einstein Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.




gulf of tonkin etcetera, same shit happens over and over in history, but you react the same way.
Quote:

Stunningly enough you might want to consider who owns corporations.



the government owns the corporations? isn't the corporations owning the government through lobbies and other crap like that? oh chicken and eggs.
Quote:

That's funny.  The insurance companies love this deal.  The government just forced more people to buy their product.  Do you know who gets fucked?  Small business.  That isn't your giant corporatins that you hate so much but use products of everyday.



yes they liked the last deal and everyone was apeshit pissed about it, but look at how they fought the single payer then the public option, i mean what do you personally have against the public option? i can't find anything negative about the public option. i have a hard time finding any arguments against it. and yes, the deal is a ripoff in favor of the health insurance company, the tea party protested like a bunch of nutjobs throwing bills of dollar at the face of an old guy who can't afford to live so compromises reached this crap, unless obama planned this all along.
Quote:

If you aren't going to follow the proper application process for entry into this country you can just fuck off.  Just what are the Canuck requirements for entry into Canoodia.  I know the one's for Mexico are quite stringent.

Minding our own business?  The world is our business, child.  And the only way the world will respect the US is if it strong.  Not some faggy Neville Chamberlain look the other way wimp like France.




sure illegals can't enter usa but usa can enter any goddamn country like it wishes so.

the only way the usa is going to be respected is when it stops propping up puppet government and actively taking part in protecting genocidal government like israel and kleptocratic government like jean-claude duvalier's haiti. it should also stop supporting saudi arabia the worst damn country on earth when it comes to human rights. oh and it probably should stop trying to overthrow people like jean-bertrand aristide and hugo chavez, democratically elected people.
Quote:

Ron Paul will do nothing because he will never be anything more than he is, which is a fringe nutcase with a seat in Congress that he has managed to parlay into exactly nothing.  None of his whackjob shit ever gets passed.



yes and any of his events are more or less ignored by the media in your great country with free speech. sure he goes in the media here and there and judge napolitano invites him on his show. his rallies are grossly distorted as attracting 2-3 persons when he attracts more than a few hundred.

i am not sure the picture is accurate, but have you really heard much that was positive about ron paul . i mean in the debate all they ever did was saying he was on the wrong team because he was the only one with the goddamn sense to ask for limited government thus limited military.

i am not sure the image is appropriate but i cant find any sign that isn't in the favor of ron paul.


Edited by communeart (07/09/10 06:48 PM)


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12874154 - 07/09/10 07:56 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hey zappa what the fuck is wrong with you...ron paul is practically the only libertarian in the entire congress...his ideas are not weird they are for freedom...creating an agency to wage a war against the citizens is wrong and i dont remember where the constitution gives the federal government the right to police the citizenry(DEA)...the fact of the matter is ron paul isn't pure enough idealogically for me...i am an archist, and a capitalist...the state is nothing but a hindrance to the freedom of society...a hindrance to careing for your fellow citizens, a hindrance to me controlling my own body...most republican politicians think government and government subsidies are fine so long as its for my people, but your people can go fuck themselves...most democratic politicians think government and government subsidies are fine to give to someone as long as that person will continue to give them more power and more control...at least ron paul walks the walk and talks the talk about limited government as was meant by the constitution


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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12874186 - 07/09/10 08:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hey communeart, how long ago do you think the european governments would have had financial problems if they had had to supply their own military all this time, instead of relying on the u.s., i am a pascifist and i do think our military footprint is entirely too large, but come on...its kinda like the movie a few good men where jack nicholson is like you want me on that wall you need me on that wall...europe doesn't like to admit that they needed the us to do what it has done so that they didnt have to...its time for europe to grow up and defend itself already instead of acting like the grandmother who needs her diaper changed...and hugo chavez is a tool and i highly doubt the last election was fair.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12874295 - 07/09/10 08:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i don't see how europe need much of a military nowdays with nuclear weapons ,the whole thing about europe was the possible soviet invasions to bring communism as communism in theory really need to exist on the most advanced societies on earth else it turns to disaster just like what happened.

there's absolutly nothing that says the chavez elections were unfair, the polls supported his ratings.

as for media ownership, that channel didn't have his license renewed and it was perfectly legal, that channel supported the coup against him. thatcher did the same thing to a channel who reported a documentary about 3 man killed in a certain war which the british were involved. most of the media are owned by people who have an interest in seeing chavez down, they are linked to the higher incomes. so there should be diversity of opinion, it is absurd that there should be monopoly of anti-chavez opinion on the news when the people elect him in transparent elections. all he did was not renew the license to be a public channel, they can still be part of a private cable company.


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( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Anonymous 9,356 105 01/26/03 02:53 PM
by GoBlue!
* Liberal politicians hate those uppity blacks. luvdemshrooms 581 1 11/03/03 07:24 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Is the drug war anti-capitalist?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
LearyfanS 12,588 151 08/12/04 12:49 PM
by CJay
* Democracy is an illusion and the media is NOT LIBERAL.
( 1 2 3 all )
havatampa 3,991 48 10/15/03 06:32 PM
by Crobih

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