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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12868923 - 07/08/10 07:51 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i would just like to say that with most authoritarian governments they preach about equality and usually take power based on trying to give "equality", socialism is for equalizing outcomes amongst all classes....what they never admit is that this will never happen so long as their is a class that they like to keep separate when speaking and that is the political class...in socialism the ones who make the rules will never be equal to the ones who must obey the rules...not to mention that financially socialism bankrupts nations...i think that many of the countries in france would not have lasted this long financially without piggy-backing off of the stronger economies thru the formation of the euro...i think it was a terrible idea to form the euro because all euro-zone contries were not equal in economic production, letting weaker economies survive longer than they should have...greece's government hasn't really made sound financial decesions(and more taxes for more government isn't a good financial decision) and now they're being forced to tighten their belts.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12870373 - 07/09/10 12:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

yes i know i didn't use the right reply to function but i am responding to 2 post at the same time so it is a pain in the ass.

Quote:

You may not consider Pol Pot a communist (embarrassed?) but he certainly produced 100% employment.

That bit of business from Lenin that in order to eat you must work is hardly the state of current leftist thought today.  Current leftist thought today is that regardless of what you do you get what you want regardless of what you contribute.




dude if you don't work you don't eat is socialism as there is no excuse to not work except illnesses etc and regardless of what you contribute you get what you want is communism since everything is post-scarcity and everything is sci-fi including cloning and teleportation,many like me don't believe such a system will ever truly exists but do not deny it's possibility. ΒΈ

well, i guess you got a point there with pol pot, but one major focus on communist government in poor countries was to fight illeteracy and while having glasses didn't mean you were an intellectual, people with glasses were executed because they were often bourgeois since only such people could afford glasses, there was a strong anti-intellectualism, in fact intellectuals were shot . education is a very important thing for all socialist because it is from there that society evolves at all , the soviet system of education was pretty good for example, that's why it had a space programs and actually beat the americans to the first drone on the moon if i am not mistaken, the first man on the moon was sorta symbolic.

pol pot did have features of communism, since he wanted his society to live in what we call primitive communism, where people pretty much share their tools and what they have because the conditions requires it. he might have more similarity with anarcho-primitivism but they would never accept a state. so perhaps a communo-primitivism? and a genocidal one too?
Quote:

i would just like to say that with most authoritarian governments they preach about equality and usually take power based on trying to give "equality", .......not to mention that financially socialism bankrupts nations...i think that many of the countries in france would not have lasted this long financially without piggy-backing off of the stronger economies thru the formation of the euro...i think it was a terrible idea to form the euro because all euro-zone contries were not equal in economic production, letting weaker economies survive longer than they should have...greece's government hasn't really made sound financial decesions(and more taxes for more government isn't a good financial decision) and now they're being forced to tighten their belts.




pinochet didn't give a fuck about equality, mussolini either. hitler preached equality and never delivered anything to bring that except sometime better working condition but less rights as in the ability to change jobs or the right to strike. the euro zone is a bad thing, but i don't see how france gained anything of it, i think finance are still a matter of individual states, what is so socialist about france that isn't in canada? why would socialism bankrupt nations? you seem to think government spending is socialism and i have explained to you why it is not.
Quote:

socialism is for equalizing outcomes amongst all classes....what they never admit is that this will never happen so long as their is a class that they like to keep separate when speaking and that is the political class...in socialism the ones who make the rules will never be equal to the ones who must obey the rules



yes this is a flaw that many comrades discuss when talking about cuba which we pretty much consider as one of the only communist country that isn't totally full of shit. we recognize that those who are closer to the government are treated better than other citizens, we also recognize some political prisoners. but in this case it is funny to point out to a libertarian that corporations who have lobbies do better than corporations who don't and that there are political prisoners in the usa. but of course they have charges that aren't trumped up like the political prisoners in cuba right.


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Registered: 06/17/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12870485 - 07/09/10 01:10 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

oh i totally agree that corporations who have lobbies get better outcomes than those that dont...but this is not capitalism...capitalism is not a business-lawmaker partnership....i would argue that, with a government that intends to regulate and control many aspects of the economy, businesses lobby the government(political class) to keep the government out of their business. also businesses lobby government to pass laws to keep away competition...in no way is this capitalism...capitalism is not politics...ideally if government would stay the fuck out of the way of business there would be no need for lobbyists. it would be futile to lobby a politician b/c he wouldn't be able to pass a law to interfere anyways. the politician would be constrained...ideally the consumer would decide...which business provides a better product...which provides the cheapest product...or which provides the best service....whoever provides the best in the consumers' eyes succeeds and survives...this is capitalism.

the more a government regulates and interferes in the marketplace the more money will be spent on lobbying that government. and in an environment like this those evil large corporations(your opinion of them) survive because they have more money to line the pockets of the politicians...the little guy gets devestated in an environment like this.


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Offlinetxlibertarian
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Registered: 05/31/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: Simplicitry]
    #12870661 - 07/09/10 02:19 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Simplicitry said:

Just be careful not to bunch all right wingers in with the mess of the republican party. Some of us are against all big government from welfare to farm subsidies. Not all of us are christian. Well not all of us are republican. I'm a right wing libertarian. I'm right wing on fiscal matters like you, but unlike you I'm also right wing with social matters.




You actually contradicted the definition of libertarianism.


Edited by txlibertarian (07/09/10 11:37 PM)


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Invisibledespisedicon
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Registered: 06/16/06
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: txlibertarian]
    #12870695 - 07/09/10 02:35 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Labels are for soup cans.  I'm with George Washington.  He warned of the dangers of political parties in his farewell address.


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OfflineAlexD
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: despisedicon]
    #12870761 - 07/09/10 03:04 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.





Probably? You watch MSNBC too much? You do understand that Tea Party is a protest against Socialism and nothing but that right? Sure there are anti-drug/prostitution social cons there but it's 100% libertarian cause and there are loads of libertarian folk out there. If you're libertarian you should be protesting with them not bitching about them...


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: AlexD]
    #12871297 - 07/09/10 08:42 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

AlexD said:
Quote:

the tea parties i believe are probably a bunch of hypocrites--probably saying dont touch my guns or my money! and in the same breath saying dont put that(either cock or drugs) into your body and crying about the other team being a bunch of statists when they clearly are themselves. they're the same people who think the militarization of the police is a good thing because its tough on crime.





Probably? You watch MSNBC too much? You do understand that Tea Party is a protest against Socialism and nothing but that right? Sure there are anti-drug/prostitution social cons there but it's 100% libertarian cause and there are loads of libertarian folk out there. If you're libertarian you should be protesting with them not bitching about them...




I would argue that more than likely if you take the tea partiers and what they believe, yeah they are for laissez-faire ecnomics to an extent...a number are farmers who recieve subsidies and would be pissed if you cut off their faucet...a number are contractors or small business owners who have gov. contracts would be upset if they didn't get their contracts...in texas i'm sure there is some private prison builders/workers who are tea partiers and would be pissed if the cash stopped coming....also how many tea partiers actually want an end to foreign war. how many tea partiers think that we defeated germany sixty years ago and we dont need to have a base there yet, that europe should protect itself...not to mention another key issue for libertarians, immigration and more of it is good for america...they still don't realize that freedom has some uglyness(drugs, gays-depending on your position on them, people saying dirty, vile things, etc.) and freedom has positives as well....the tea partiers still don't get that to protect the positives we must accept the negatives, because if we try to fix the negatives through government, inevitably the government will destroy the positives(like obama putting a guy in charge of medicare who thinks brittain's system of rationed care is good)

the problem with conservatism is it does not provide a clear and different alternative to progressiveism....american conservativeism is the backpack full of stones on the back of socialism/communism slowing it down as it races to the top of the mountain....everytime conservatives compromise with the left the left gets closer to the summit...american conservatism is not an alternative path but a group of people saying wait! and slow down! all the while compromising their beliefs every step of the way(think bush giving up on what was left of the free-market) what a load of shit.  Libertarianism is the path out.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12871457 - 07/09/10 10:07 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

oh i totally agree that corporations who have lobbies get better outcomes than those that dont...but this is not capitalism...capitalism is not a business-lawmaker partnership....i would argue that, with a government that intends to regulate and control many aspects of the economy, businesses lobby the government(political class) to keep the government out of their business. also businesses lobby government to pass laws to keep away competition...in no way is this capitalism...capitalism is not politics...ideally if government would stay the fuck out of the way of business there would be no need for lobbyists. it would be futile to lobby a politician b/c he wouldn't be able to pass a law to interfere anyways. the politician would be constrained...ideally the consumer would decide...which business provides a better product...which provides the cheapest product...or which provides the best service....whoever provides the best in the consumers' eyes succeeds and survives...this is capitalism.

the more a government regulates and interferes in the marketplace the more money will be spent on lobbying that government. and in an environment like this those evil large corporations(your opinion of them) survive because they have more money to line the pockets of the politicians...the little guy gets devestated in an environment like this.




well i do agree 100% with all of what you said, i guess the difference between you and i is i don't believe the needs of the majority will be fulfilled without taxation or any government run programs. you believe everything falls in place with capitalism.
Quote:

I would argue that more than likely if you take the tea partiers and what they believe, yeah they are for laissez-faire ecnomics to an extent...a number are farmers who recieve subsidies and would be pissed if you cut off their faucet...a number are contractors or small business owners who have gov. contracts would be upset if they didn't get their contracts...in texas i'm sure there is some private prison builders/workers who are tea partiers and would be pissed if the cash stopped coming....also how many tea partiers actually want an end to foreign war. how many tea partiers think that we defeated germany sixty years ago and we dont need to have a base there yet, that europe should protect itself...not to mention another key issue for libertarians, immigration and more of it is good for america...they still don't realize that freedom has some uglyness(drugs, gays-depending on your position on them, people saying dirty, vile things, etc.) and freedom has positives as well....the tea partiers still don't get that to protect the positives we must accept the negatives, because if we try to fix the negatives through government, inevitably the government will destroy the positives(like obama putting a guy in charge of medicare who thinks brittain's system of rationed care is good)

the problem with conservatism is it does not provide a clear and different alternative to progressiveism....american conservativeism is the backpack full of stones on the back of socialism/communism slowing it down as it races to the top of the mountain....everytime conservatives compromise with the left the left gets closer to the summit...american conservatism is not an alternative path but a group of people saying wait! and slow down! all the while compromising their beliefs every step of the way(think bush giving up on what was left of the free-market) what a load of shit.  Libertarianism is the path out.



the tea party was good when many of them supported ron paul, i even prefer the conspiracy theory guys to the current stereotype of the tea party since they are more likely to oppose wars due to the fact that they have some knowledge about false-flag operation.

i do believe the tea party is a tool for the rich upper class to put pressure on the government for pro-corporate interests. clearly on the last healthcare debate the insurance company had a clear interest in supporting the tea party. ron paul's libertarianism may be real capitalism as you call it, but i feel that anyone elected as a tea party member will basicly be a republican with less government. at least ron paul first cut will be in the military and the insane amount of military base the usa has around the world. there is too much anti-illegals pro war on terror folk in the tea party. none of them seem to talk about ending the role of the united states as a global policeman, and regaining some respect from the world simply by minding their own business.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12872235 - 07/09/10 01:59 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Good fucking lord there is just too much raw dumb there.
Quote:



the tea party was good when many of them supported ron paul,




Ron Paul is a jackass and had nothing to do with the current tea party movement.  For its origins see Rick Santelli rant.
Quote:

i even prefer the conspiracy theory guys to the current stereotype of the tea party since they are more likely to oppose wars due to the fact that they have some knowledge about false-flag operation.




They have no knowledge.  They are ignorant buffoons in severe need of psychological help.
Quote:



i do believe the tea party is a tool for the rich upper class to put pressure on the government for pro-corporate interests.




Stunningly enough you might want to consider who owns corporations. 
Quote:

clearly on the last healthcare debate the insurance company had a clear interest in supporting the tea party.




That's funny.  The insurance companies love this deal.  The government just forced more people to buy their product.  Do you know who gets fucked?  Small business.  That isn't your giant corporatins that you hate so much but use products of everyday.
Quote:

ron paul's libertarianism may be real capitalism as you call it, but i feel that anyone elected as a tea party member will basicly be a republican with less government.




There actually is no such thing as a Tea Party.  It doesn't exist.  And if the popular uprising known as the Tea Party results in big government Republicans getting tossed well then, good.  They betrayed their principles.  Fuck off back to the farm, Lindsey Graham.
Quote:

at least ron paul first cut will be in the military and the insane amount of military base the usa has around the world.




Ron Paul will do nothing because he will never be anything more than he is, which is a fringe nutcase with a seat in Congress that he has managed to parlay into exactly nothing.  None of his whackjob shit ever gets passed.
Quote:

there is too much anti-illegals pro war on terror folk in the tea party. none of them seem to talk about ending the role of the united states as a global policeman, and regaining some respect from the world simply by minding their own business.




If you aren't going to follow the proper application process for entry into this country you can just fuck off.  Just what are the Canuck requirements for entry into Canoodia.  I know the one's for Mexico are quite stringent.

Minding our own business?  The world is our business, child.  And the only way the world will respect the US is if it strong.  Not some faggy Neville Chamberlain look the other way wimp like France.  Forget that.  Even France think Obama's a pussy.


--------------------


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12873763 - 07/09/10 06:31 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Good fucking lord there is just too much raw dumb there.
Quote:



the tea party was good when many of them supported ron paul,




Ron Paul is a jackass and had nothing to do with the current tea party movement.  For its origins see Rick Santelli rant.
Quote:

i even prefer the conspiracy theory guys to the current stereotype of the tea party since they are more likely to oppose wars due to the fact that they have some knowledge about false-flag operation.




They have no knowledge.  They are ignorant buffoons in severe need of psychological help.
Quote:



i do believe the tea party is a tool for the rich upper class to put pressure on the government for pro-corporate interests.




Stunningly enough you might want to consider who owns corporations. 
Quote:

clearly on the last healthcare debate the insurance company had a clear interest in supporting the tea party.




That's funny.  The insurance companies love this deal.  The government just forced more people to buy their product.  Do you know who gets fucked?  Small business.  That isn't your giant corporatins that you hate so much but use products of everyday.
Quote:

ron paul's libertarianism may be real capitalism as you call it, but i feel that anyone elected as a tea party member will basicly be a republican with less government.




There actually is no such thing as a Tea Party.  It doesn't exist.  And if the popular uprising known as the Tea Party results in big government Republicans getting tossed well then, good.  They betrayed their principles.  Fuck off back to the farm, Lindsey Graham.
Quote:

at least ron paul first cut will be in the military and the insane amount of military base the usa has around the world.




Ron Paul will do nothing because he will never be anything more than he is, which is a fringe nutcase with a seat in Congress that he has managed to parlay into exactly nothing.  None of his whackjob shit ever gets passed.
Quote:

there is too much anti-illegals pro war on terror folk in the tea party. none of them seem to talk about ending the role of the united states as a global policeman, and regaining some respect from the world simply by minding their own business.




If you aren't going to follow the proper application process for entry into this country you can just fuck off.  Just what are the Canuck requirements for entry into Canoodia.  I know the one's for Mexico are quite stringent.

Minding our own business?  The world is our business, child.  And the only way the world will respect the US is if it strong.  Not some faggy Neville Chamberlain look the other way wimp like France.  Forget that.  Even France think Obama's a pussy.





i'm having a hard time splitting your quotes, so here we go
1. ron paul is smarter than you , at least he wants to end the war on drugs.

2. i don't like them that much, but at least they aren't insane
Quote:

Albert Einstein Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.




gulf of tonkin etcetera, same shit happens over and over in history, but you react the same way.
Quote:

Stunningly enough you might want to consider who owns corporations.



the government owns the corporations? isn't the corporations owning the government through lobbies and other crap like that? oh chicken and eggs.
Quote:

That's funny.  The insurance companies love this deal.  The government just forced more people to buy their product.  Do you know who gets fucked?  Small business.  That isn't your giant corporatins that you hate so much but use products of everyday.



yes they liked the last deal and everyone was apeshit pissed about it, but look at how they fought the single payer then the public option, i mean what do you personally have against the public option? i can't find anything negative about the public option. i have a hard time finding any arguments against it. and yes, the deal is a ripoff in favor of the health insurance company, the tea party protested like a bunch of nutjobs throwing bills of dollar at the face of an old guy who can't afford to live so compromises reached this crap, unless obama planned this all along.
Quote:

If you aren't going to follow the proper application process for entry into this country you can just fuck off.  Just what are the Canuck requirements for entry into Canoodia.  I know the one's for Mexico are quite stringent.

Minding our own business?  The world is our business, child.  And the only way the world will respect the US is if it strong.  Not some faggy Neville Chamberlain look the other way wimp like France.




sure illegals can't enter usa but usa can enter any goddamn country like it wishes so.

the only way the usa is going to be respected is when it stops propping up puppet government and actively taking part in protecting genocidal government like israel and kleptocratic government like jean-claude duvalier's haiti. it should also stop supporting saudi arabia the worst damn country on earth when it comes to human rights. oh and it probably should stop trying to overthrow people like jean-bertrand aristide and hugo chavez, democratically elected people.
Quote:

Ron Paul will do nothing because he will never be anything more than he is, which is a fringe nutcase with a seat in Congress that he has managed to parlay into exactly nothing.  None of his whackjob shit ever gets passed.



yes and any of his events are more or less ignored by the media in your great country with free speech. sure he goes in the media here and there and judge napolitano invites him on his show. his rallies are grossly distorted as attracting 2-3 persons when he attracts more than a few hundred.

i am not sure the picture is accurate, but have you really heard much that was positive about ron paul . i mean in the debate all they ever did was saying he was on the wrong team because he was the only one with the goddamn sense to ask for limited government thus limited military.

i am not sure the image is appropriate but i cant find any sign that isn't in the favor of ron paul.


Edited by communeart (07/09/10 06:48 PM)


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Registered: 06/17/10
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: communeart]
    #12874154 - 07/09/10 07:56 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hey zappa what the fuck is wrong with you...ron paul is practically the only libertarian in the entire congress...his ideas are not weird they are for freedom...creating an agency to wage a war against the citizens is wrong and i dont remember where the constitution gives the federal government the right to police the citizenry(DEA)...the fact of the matter is ron paul isn't pure enough idealogically for me...i am an archist, and a capitalist...the state is nothing but a hindrance to the freedom of society...a hindrance to careing for your fellow citizens, a hindrance to me controlling my own body...most republican politicians think government and government subsidies are fine so long as its for my people, but your people can go fuck themselves...most democratic politicians think government and government subsidies are fine to give to someone as long as that person will continue to give them more power and more control...at least ron paul walks the walk and talks the talk about limited government as was meant by the constitution


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Offlinelibertarian23
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12874186 - 07/09/10 08:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

hey communeart, how long ago do you think the european governments would have had financial problems if they had had to supply their own military all this time, instead of relying on the u.s., i am a pascifist and i do think our military footprint is entirely too large, but come on...its kinda like the movie a few good men where jack nicholson is like you want me on that wall you need me on that wall...europe doesn't like to admit that they needed the us to do what it has done so that they didnt have to...its time for europe to grow up and defend itself already instead of acting like the grandmother who needs her diaper changed...and hugo chavez is a tool and i highly doubt the last election was fair.


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Offlinecommuneart
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Re: Is Liberal vs. Conservative even appropriate anymore? [Re: libertarian23]
    #12874295 - 07/09/10 08:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

i don't see how europe need much of a military nowdays with nuclear weapons ,the whole thing about europe was the possible soviet invasions to bring communism as communism in theory really need to exist on the most advanced societies on earth else it turns to disaster just like what happened.

there's absolutly nothing that says the chavez elections were unfair, the polls supported his ratings.

as for media ownership, that channel didn't have his license renewed and it was perfectly legal, that channel supported the coup against him. thatcher did the same thing to a channel who reported a documentary about 3 man killed in a certain war which the british were involved. most of the media are owned by people who have an interest in seeing chavez down, they are linked to the higher incomes. so there should be diversity of opinion, it is absurd that there should be monopoly of anti-chavez opinion on the news when the people elect him in transparent elections. all he did was not renew the license to be a public channel, they can still be part of a private cable company.


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